Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 2004

Vol. 582 No. 1

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Will the Taoiseach agree that the argument about particular persons being members of the IRA Army Council is irrelevant in the context that the IRA still exists, is involved in punishment beatings, extortion, abductions, information gathering, money laundering and organising robberies? Is he aware of these facts based on intelligence briefings? Will he confirm whether he has had intelligence briefings, as has the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? Is he aware, therefore, of the extent of criminal activities in Dublin Port? Does he accept his Government has a responsibility to act in a political sense in providing resources so that the Garda and the Criminal Assets Bureau can do their job?

Arising from that, has the Taoiseach had discussions with the Chairman of Dublin Port, former Fianna Fáil councillor, Mr. Joe Burke, under whose remit and in whose area the alleged criminality is taking place? Will he accept that he and the Government have a clear political responsibility to deal with these matters? Has he evidence of extortion, money laundering, public houses fronting for the IRA and that its existence destroys the democratic credentials of its political wing, namely, the Sinn Féin Party?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny referred to various activities in which the IRA is involved. Recent events, including events which have been evident for a considerable time and the near execution of an individual, have focused on the fact that there is criminality and that these matters are linked to the IRA. During recent interviews, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I referred to criminality associated with Dublin Port and links to paramilitary activity. Incidents in the port area are linked to paramilitaries and are a cause for deep concern.

This is not a party political matter. No one is trying to score points, and I am not replying to Deputy Kenny in that way. It is a matter of the most serious criminality carried out by persons associated with paramilitary organisations, and that is not acceptable in a democratic society. It is a matter for the Garda to prove conclusively and for the DPP to be able to bring forward these cases. That is an ongoing difficulty that has existed for 30 years. There is a responsibility to pursue those involved and bring them before the courts if possible, and the Government will give its full support in doing so.

The activities of paramilitaries affect our efforts to advance the peace process. People are being brutalised and maimed on a daily basis in Northern Ireland. This does not make our job any easier. I do not want to raise these issues but I cannot convince other parties to do things when these crimes are taking place. I would appreciate Deputy Kenny not pushing me on the issue when all these crimes cannot be proved. Unfortunately, even when there is extremely good intelligence information, and I have been briefed, I cannot make it known. I have always asked why these matters cannot be proved, but that is a longer story which I cannot control. Paramilitary activity, whether in Dublin or Northern Ireland, must end, and the message is loud and clear. I am more interested in bringing an end to these activities and getting on with the political aspect.

The fact that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I have raised these matters, particularly on Dublin Port, has indirectly resulted in a lot of action being taken that might put an end to some of these criminal events or the linking of criminal gangs to those orchestrated elsewhere. There is good intelligence which indicates that the message is sinking home and some of these acts might end.

Mr. Kenny

I do not wish to interfere in the process of bringing criminals to justice. It is a matter for the DPP, the Garda and the courts to prove these cases. Will the Taoiseach repeat whether he has had individual intelligence briefings at the same information levels as are available to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform? I accept that the Taoiseach has put a great deal of effort into moving forward the peace process. However, the persistent claim that, prior to the 1997 general election, a member of the Fianna Fáil Party met members of the IRA Army Council to ask it to delay the implementation of a ceasefire has caused me concern over the years. Does the Taoiseach have knowledge of this matter so as to put it to rest for once and for all?

Is the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform actively following the policy of allowing the Criminal Assets Bureau, and whatever resources the Garda needs, to deal with these criminal elements, be they public houses fronting for the IRA or whatever? The Fine Gael Party has never had a problem in dealing with the appeasement of the men of violence. We have never had any equivocation about it nor has the Taoiseach. However, these questions must be answered as they impact on the democracy in which we all live.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny has asked three separate questions. First, criminality and politics do not mix in this jurisdiction, Northern Ireland or anywhere else, which is why we want to see the end of it. It is not a political point, it is just that we want to see the end of it.

To my knowledge, I do not believe that anyone in Fianna Fáil ever met the IRA Army Council pre-1997. I do not believe any such meeting ever took place with anybody asking that the ceasefire be delayed. I am certain about this because I was deeply involved in that period. I am emphatic that no meeting in any form occurred.

The answer to the question on allocation of resources is an emphatic "yes". With whatever resources are necessary, we will continue to investigate these activities through the Criminal Assets Bureau and the various Garda intelligence units. There have been many suggestions about racketeering in petrol, vodka and so on of which the Garda is well aware. I have been given briefings about the matters we indicated recently, but I would rather not go into the specifics.

Mr. Rabbitte

The traditional exodus on St. Patrick's Day of Ministers to 25 different locations around the world where they will meet Irish immigrant communities and do the business of Ireland will occur again. In that regard, I wish to ask the Taoiseach about our less successful emigrants, many of whom have fallen on very hard times, especially in a number of British cities, living in unimaginable isolation and squalor, as was evident in a recent television programme. In that context, will the Taoiseach inform the House about the task force that reported to the Minister for Foreign Affairs on emigrants in August 2002?

The task force recommended the creation of an Irish agency abroad and the provision of €18 million in 2003, rising to €34 million in its entirety. Up to €8 million of this would go to welfare services for those in the most desperate conditions. These were the people, who in the bad days of the 1950s and 1960s, remitted moneys home, without which many families would not have been able to survive. Now, those people have fallen on hard times. The €8 million was a small amount of money during the Celtic tiger and the booming economy, yet the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, responded by cutting the €2.7 million that was paid to DION by 5% for 2003. On 27 January, during the debate on the Labour Party motion on the plight of Irish emigrants, Deputy Cowen said: "... I am determined that we can and will do better as quickly as possible." He also said: "I hope to be able to find additional funds through savings in my Department's Vote later this year."

Will the Taoiseach set up the agency for the Irish abroad as requested by Bishop Hegarty on behalf of the bishops' commission on our emigrants? Will additional moneys be provided? Will any of the 17 recommendations in the task force report, which were duly ignored by the Government on receipt in August 2002, be implemented?

The Taoiseach

Next week, Government Ministers will engage in the celebration of the national feast day throughout the world. We hope to link this, as always, with political, cultural and tourism work. Detailed briefs have been given by the various Departments and agencies. Work has gone on since Christmas to ensure that the trips are not just for attending parades but also detailed meetings with tourism, political and business groupings.

On Deputy Rabbitte's substantive point on the task force report on Irish emigrants, there was a debate in the House some weeks ago and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, referred during that debate to the report. Since 1997, €18 million has been provided in DION grants. That, by and large, goes to welfare services, services for the elderly and to assist people who are less well-off. As Deputy Rabbitte has outlined, many people left Ireland in previous years who worked abroad and who now have not got proper pensions or insurance schemes. Approximately two thirds of the recommendations made by the advisory group are already under way. The handling of DION grants has been moved from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to the Department of Foreign Affairs. It has been decided not to set up dedicated agencies but instead a unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs, chaired by the Secretary General, to decide on these issues.

Since the report was published, the Department has been meeting fortnightly, if not weekly, with emigrant groups to co-ordinate activities in assisting them. To assist on the ground in London, grants have been given to the Irish agencies in England. They are in the process of appointing development officers on the ground in the various regions to better use the resources allocated to Irish agencies and to leverage funds from local authorities in Britain so as to better co-ordinate welfare efforts for the elderly. It is believed that dedicating development officers on the ground will lead to better co-ordination of welfare activities.

Two thirds of the report's recommendations are already in place. The group is meeting fortnightly, if not weekly. There will be a dedicated unit set up in the Department of Foreign Affairs rather than an agency. The Government will continue to fund DION as I have outlined.

Mr. Rabbitte

I did not make any remark either way about the merits of the ministerial visits to 25 locations. I am not raising that point.

The Taoiseach

I accept that.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am raising the question of the provision this State is making for people whom we forced out in the 1950s and 1960s with little formal education, some of whom have fallen on hard times in British cities and who are living in the most unimaginable conditions, as was seen in a recent television programme. The two key recommendations in the report are Bishop Hegarty's call for the establishment of an agency for the Irish abroad and increased funding. They recommended a provision of €18 million in 2003. The response of the Minister for Foreign Affairs was to cut the €2.7 million that had been provided to €2.5 million in 2003.

Will the Taoiseach set up the agency? He seems to say that he will not. How can a committee or unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs do the same job? How could the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs, preoccupied as he is with other duties, have been expected to have given the matter a higher ranking than it manifestly has had? The report of the task force was ignored and nothing was done. Is it a matter for the Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs? If Bishop Hegarty and others who have worked with emigrants in poor conditions abroad recommend an agency, does that recommendation not have a great deal of merit? That is argued at some length in the report given to the Government.

On funding, the Taoiseach can provide €18 million to store the electronic voting equipment of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which is more than it costs us to vote at the moment, but he cannot provide that kind of money for Irish people who, through their remittances, kept families alive in parts of Ireland in those years.

The Taoiseach

There are about 70 recommendations in the commission report. About two thirds of those, that is about 50, are being implemented. As soon as the report was received, an interdepartmental group was set up. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, reported on that to the House in a recent Private Members' Business debate.

Mr. Stagg

No money.

The Taoiseach

There was additional——

Mr. Stagg

No money.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Stagg continues to interrupt, he will have to leave the House.

Mr. Stagg

Around the edges there is no money. The emigrants sent back €3.5 billion, and we have no money for them. The Taoiseach is miserable.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Stagg wish to leave the House? The Chair will facilitate him.

Mr. Stagg

I think I do wish to leave the House.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister, Deputy Cowen, did not report; he was dragged in here on our Private Members' motion.

The Taoiseach

Additional resources were given to DION in the previous budget and, as I stated, in recent years DION has continued to receive additional resources. More importantly, to help the individuals who were highlighted in the programme——

Mr. Stagg

The essentials are left out.

The Taoiseach

—development workers and their salaries are now being linked to the agencies at home and abroad to equip them as I indicated earlier.

Mr. Stagg

Rubbish. What was the report for?

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Stagg interrupts once more, he will leave the House.

Mr. Penrose

We can all leave the house.

The Taoiseach

I will not point out how much money used to be given to DION. A substantial amount of money is being given now, but more than——

Mr. Stagg

Substantial money is not being given.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg will leave the House.

Mr. Stagg

Last year, €18 million was given to Punchestown and DION only gets something like €2.5 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg will leave the House.

Ms Lynch

The Taoiseach should be ashamed of himself.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am dealing with a point of disorder.

Ms Lynch

What about the people who are in need?

Mr. Penrose

The Ceann Comhairle is dealing with Deputy Stagg, but he is not dealing fairly.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg will leave the House. If he does not, I will have no choice but to name him.

Mr. Penrose

That is what we got from Fianna Fáil — a one-way ticket.

Suspension of Member.

An Ceann Comhairle

I move: "That Deputy Stagg be suspended from the service of the Dáil."

Question put.

Mr. Rabbitte

Shameful.

Mr. Quinn

Outrageous.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the motion being opposed?

Mr. Penrose

Disgrace. That is exactly what Fianna Fáil wants.

An Ceann Comhairle

Under Standing Order 61, any division is postponed to take place immediately before the order of business the next sitting day. Deputy Stagg must now leave the House.

Mr. Penrose

It is an absolute scandal. The Taoiseach can find millions of euros for racing courses, but cannot find enough for a human being.

Ms Lynch

Deputy Stagg is going with honour, unlike the Taoiseach.

Deputy Stagg withdrew from the Chamber.