Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Apr 2004

Vol. 584 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

Last week the country was informed that the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, had used Civil Service resources in his Department to prepare election literature marked private and confidential for Fianna Fáil candidates in the local elections. After some reluctance the Taoiseach indicated that this was not a very serious matter. However, the Standards in Public Office Commission has initiated an inquiry into the matter.

Yesterday we had a report that the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Fahey, had used public resources and officially headed departmental paper for the purposes of fundraising for a Fianna Fáil candidate at a function at which the Taoiseach will be the guest speaker. It appears that some elements in Government do not understand the difference between right and wrong.

The Taoiseach is aware of the standards and code of conduct for office holders which states specifically in respect of Ministers: "Office holders are provided with facilities at public expense in order that public business may be conducted effectively... Holders of public office enjoy an enhanced public profile and should be mindful of the need to avoid use of resources in a way that could reasonably be construed as an inappropriate raising of profile in the context of a General Election." I assume the same applies in the case of all elections.

Mindful of the fact that prior to the previous general election civil servants were instructed by a serving Minister at the time only to issue "good news" letters, does the Taoiseach condone the actions of the Minister and the Minister of State? Will the Taoiseach instruct all Ministers as office holders, today if he has not already done so, not to abuse their ministerial privileges for political gain in the 44 days left in the run up to the local and European elections?

The Taoiseach

The information packs referred to were a collation of information publicly available regarding the work of the Department of Education and Science and its achievements over the past five years. They also contained information on special education and key facts about education in this country. All the information in the pack was in the public domain in one form or another, either by way of answers to parliamentary questions, Adjournment Debates or departmental websites and publications. Each pack contained a relevant county breakdown of the schools' building programme and showed the overall total that had been spent on school buildings, both primary and post-primary, up to 2003.

The information included in the packs is not a problem. However, the folders were Department of Education and Science packs and they should not have been used. That was wrong and I said that to the Minister. He should not have used Department of Education and Science folders for such information. I accept there was an error in that matter.

The letter sent by the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, concerning a party fundraising event was sent from his constituency office. It is totally inappropriate and, as Deputy Kenny pointed out, is in breach of guidelines. I made it clear to the Minister of State when I discussed the matter with him that the use of departmental notepaper for such correspondence is not permitted. He believed there was a distinction because it was his constituency office. However, there is not and the standard is clear. The code of conduct for office holders states in section 2.2.3 that public resources and official facilities should be used only for official purposes. In this case I accept what Deputy Kenny said and I will remind my colleagues that they were in breach of the code.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for his frankness and openness in this matter. I do not know what he said to both Ministers. Perhaps it might be appropriate if they were men enough to come to the House and apologise for their behaviour, as happened in 1996 when a then Minister of State and a more senior Minister apologised to the House for literature that was issued on officially headed notepaper.

Has the Taoiseach had any consultations with or contact from his partners in Government on this matter? In the 1996 incident, the now leader of the Progressive Democrats called for resignations over a similar matter.

Mr. M. Ahern

No one will resign over this.

Mr. Kenny

In that context both the senior Minister and the Minister of State involved came to the House to apologise for their conduct. It would, perhaps, be appropriate if the Minister and Minister of State in these cases did the same. I do not know if the Taoiseach has suggested that to them but it might be appropriate to do so.

I suggest to the Taoiseach, in everybody's interest, that an instruction should be sent to all Ministers and Ministers of State, who, after all, are office holders, that this particular privilege should not be abused in any way between now and the local and European elections, or at any time.

The Taoiseach

I will remind people of the code, particularly in view of the two breaches. We will comply with the code of the Standards in Public Office Commission. I do not think there is a difficulty about the information and I do not want to see restrictions on the provision of information from anybody. The Opposition also uses Departments in the information process. The use of the folder is the issue in the case of the Minister for Education and Science. In the case of party political issues, the rule is clear. One cannot use either constituency offices or Departments for information. I will point that out again. It is easy for people to make an error in these matters. The rules are tight now and we must comply with them. I will remind my colleagues of the rules.

Mr. Durkan

What about an apology?

Mr. Allen

Fianna Fáil does not make apologies.

Mr. D. Ahern

Is the Opposition saying it never uses——

An Ceann Comhairle

I called Deputy Rabbitte. Allow him to speak without interruption.

Mr. M. Ahern

The Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, apologised.

Mr. Rabbitte

I want to——

Mr. Quinn

I had the courage to apologise.

Mr. M. Higgins

I cannot hear what the Minister of State across the way is saying.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Labour Party and the Government Deputies allow Deputy Rabbitte to speak without interruption?

Mr. Rabbitte

It is an odd time for the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ahern, to decide to make an impact on the House. It would be the first speech I have heard him make. At least the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche, had a spectacular success in Wicklow. I read Mr. Kevin Myers on it. I do not know whether Deputy Roche read him. He wrote a worthwhile piece.

Mr. Roche

It was up to his usual high Pulitzer standard. I do not deserve it.

Mr. Rabbitte

What is the Taoiseach's response to the initial observations of the Human Rights Commission appointed by the Government on the proposal of the Government to proceed with the referendum on citizenship? The Human Rights Commission has expressed concern about the Government proceeding with this poll on 11 June without any consultation with the commission. The commission has also expressed concern about the implications for the Belfast Agreement and stated that it is meeting its corresponding body in Belfast today and will make further observations on the implications for the Good Friday Agreement after that meeting.

I want to draw the Taoiseach's attention in particular to the commission's conviction that the amendment may breach the rights of Irish born children under two different international human rights treaties and will create a new category of non-citizens with a lower level of protection, that the Government had not given serious and comprehensive consideration to the human rights consequences of the referendum, that the data provided by the Government to justify the amendment is weak and that "much of the evidence and rationalisation for the proposed amendment seems vague or anecdotal in nature".

High-handed intellectual bullying is not a sufficient response to the concerns raised by the Human Rights Commission. Would it not be better to adjourn the Committee Stage tonight to allow for consultation and consideration on such a sensitive issue, to consider, as the commission put it, whether other means of addressing any purported social need have been adequately explored which would not have the same detrimental effect on human rights? If the Taoiseach will not listen to the Opposition or to the SDLP, will he respond to the Human Rights Commission established by his own Government?

The Taoiseach

The House set up the Human Rights Commission but the Government appointed it. I would, therefore, always listen to what it says and examine its views. In that regard, I have discussed the matter with the Attorney General. He assures me, and the Government is satisfied, that Ireland is not in breach of any laws or of the British-Irish Agreement. That is the legal position. As Deputy Rabbitte knows, the issue of citizenship is for the people of a country or the Legislature to deal with. It is a political matter.

It is my understanding that the Human Rights Commission has given what it calls an initial view on the Government's proposal and we will carefully examine that. This dealt with a number of issues, some of which are human rights related.

On Deputy Rabbitte's contention that a new category of non-citizen would be created which would somehow have less constitutional protection than citizens' children, let me make two points. First, the commission's initial report does not indicate which aspects of constitutional protection will be denied to these children. Second, it has not dealt with the reality that there are relatively many non-national children and adults here and there is no evidence that the fundamental rights of all of these people who are working and contributing to our economy, participating in schooling or in our communities are somehow less protected under law than the rights of our own citizens. We heard of a case the other night on RTE's "Prime Time" in which employers are in breach of the law, but that is not our constitutional position. In any event these and other issues can be discussed comprehensively during the debate.

On the point raised by Deputy Rabbitte, the Government is satisfied that Ireland is not in breach of any laws or of the British-Irish Agreement. I have answered Mr. Mark Durkan comprehensively, and the declaration put forward by the two Governments comprehensively deals with that issue.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach is correct in stating that these were the initial observations of the commission. However, the commission was not consulted. It is working within the same timeframe as the rest of us. The chairman of the commission wrote to the Minister and it was only then that he was invited to give his views.

Everything the Taoiseach has said confirms me in two views. First, despite the appeal from a broad cross-section of moderate opinion, the Taoiseach is determined to proceed on 11 June and, second, he is doing so for narrow electoral advantage and for no other reason. The Taoiseach knows how potent a force this is in communities where, for example, the queues for housing are lengthening every day. The Taoiseach understands that. I am not saying that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform know or understands that — the barristers and friends of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are not on the housing list. However, in communities where so many people are on the housing list, this is a potent force and it is wrong for the Taoiseach to use it in an electoral context. There are some matters on which we do not play politics. Despite the ups and downs of the Northern Ireland peace process, nobody on this side of the House has ever made life difficult for the Taoiseach on that issue.

Mr. Quinn

Unlike the other way around.

Mr. Rabbitte

Similarly, this issue should not be resorted to for narrow electoral gain when there is no urgency about it and when bodies like the Irish Human Rights Commission and many academics, political parties such as the SDLP, Mr. Bruce Morrison and others have said that we should take time to consider the nature of the problem and address it with as much consensus as possible.

The Taoiseach

Let me make two points. It is not my intention to be in any way rancorous. There is no need to turn this issue into a political battle. On the first point, the Human Rights Commission has been requested to give its views on the legislation and its preliminary view on this report should be seen as such. The commission has not been asked to give its views on the constitutional amendment because that is a political matter. However, if it makes any comments on the legislation the Minister will examine them.

On the second matter, Deputy Rabbitte is right. We know what difficulties might arise for Irish society in the future because of people coming to this country. I do not believe we have a difficulty. There are schools in Tallaght, in Deputy Rabbitte's constituency, and in the inner city, in my constituency, which have children from several countries. There are people from different countries living in our communities. People distinguish between the nationalities they like and those they do not like. They form their own views on that, but they do so in a low-key way and there is no great hatred, bitterness or racism in our society. There is no necessity for it. I took a chance six years ago in stating that I did not envisage difficulty.

People wonder why people from southern Nigeria and elsewhere bypass Brussels, London and Paris and come here. When I spoke with the President and Foreign Minister of Nigeria last year they told me — I did not ask them — that it was well known around the world that our citizenship laws were easy game. They wondered why we did not tighten our laws, why we had loosened them, when everyone else was tightening them. When I had this debate with Deputy Quinn, I looked at the letters and he pointed out the problem to me, as did the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue.

Mr. Quinn

Is the Government making the right interpretation of it?

The Taoiseach

Just a few hundred people were coming in at that stage. It was not an issue when we had a calm discussion about it at that time. I do not think we need to get ourselves in a knot about this matter. Our citizenship laws are too loose and we need to tighten them somewhat. In my speech last week, I tried to point out five categories. Our citizenship laws remain significantly more liberal than those elsewhere. I outlined the categories last week in the plainest English. They are massively more liberal. Frankly, I do not see any political advantage and I will not campaign by saying anything about the Labour Party or anybody else who takes a different view. I will not do that because I just do not see it.

Mr. Rabbitte

I have already heard ugly things from some of the Taoiseach's canvassers, which I will personally relate to him.

The Taoiseach

I appreciate that. Nobody mentioned this issue when I was in Deputy Rabbitte's constituency last week. There are many issues, but this is not an important issue for many people. It is a matter of sorting out our citizenship laws, which are too loose — they will remain much looser than those elsewhere — and it is no more than that. I do not see any reason to engage in contention on the matter. We need to correct this problem now. The relevant figures are available. I do not want to engage in a rant about the figures because to do so would be to hype it up and I will try my best to avoid it.

Mr. Connaughton

Why will the Government not hold the referendum in October? There would be no trouble then.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach addressed a gathering of Fianna Fáil's party faithful at Arbour Hill last Sunday, 25 April 2004, to mark the anniversary of the 1916 rising. There was another important anniversary last Sunday, the second anniversary of the publication of Fianna Fáil's manifesto for the last general election. Two years on, we know what has happened to the promises that were made. Despite the fanfare given to the document at the time, the anniversary of its publication has passed with little attention.

A deadline that was enshrined in the manifesto had a critical influence on the outcome of the 2002 election. I refer to the Government's promise to eliminate hospital waiting lists within two years. The deadline passed last Sunday while the Taoiseach spoke at Arbour Hill. I wish to remind him that his party stated two years ago that in Government it would "permanently end waiting lists in our hospitals within two years through a combination of bed capacity, primary care, secondary care and targeted reform initiatives". Two years on, that promise has come to naught. The statistics show that some 27,000 people are on hospital waiting lists. People are suffering, in pain, in discomfort and in anguish as they wait for an opportunity to be treated or for particular procedures to be carried out on their behalf.

Given that such an important milestone has been passed in the term of this Dáil, it would be appropriate for the Taoiseach to apologise to the people for the Government's failure to live up to promises that were made two years ago. Will he consider the fact that the manifesto launched two years ago contained a commitment to extend medical card eligibility to a further 200,000 people? Statistics in this morning's newspapers show that 20,000 fewer people are in possession of medical cards than was the case two years ago, when Fianna Fáil launched its general election manifesto. That equates to 1,735 fewer people with medical cards in my health board area today compared to 2002.

Will the Taoiseach consider apologising to the broad electorate for making commitments which, with hindsight, he had no intention of delivering on? More importantly, what measures will he bring forward to address the needs of those on hospital waiting lists? I refer to those who are suffering. What steps will he take to help those who face the dreadful choice each week of providing for the needs of their families or bringing their children to their local GPs? I refer to those who are on the margins, beyond the current qualifying limits for medical cards.

Mr. Roche

What about an apology from Deputy Ó Caoláin's side?

Mr. F. McGrath

The Government's record over the last two years is disgraceful.

The Taoiseach

I am glad to report, two years on, that the Government has continued to provide substantial resources to the health system. The projected figures for hospital activity show a likely increase of one third in such activity over the lifetime of the Government. Almost 1 million people have received in-patient treatment and been discharged. Over 10,000 people have been treated under the hospital services fund.

In the last full year, between September 2002 and September 2003, there has been a reduction of 42% in the number of adults waiting more than 12 months for in-patient treatment. In the same period, there has been a reduction of 39% in the number of children waiting for more than six months. Waiting times for adults and children have been halved from a year to six months. Approximately 75% of the actions in the framework as set out in the reform programme have been commenced in the first year.

We have provided the promised capital and revenue resources regarding bed capacity. Additional beds have been opened in many of the health board areas. Some 568 extra beds have been opened in the Eastern Regional Health Authority area alone. Funding has been put in place to support the commission of over 700 beds under this initiative. Ten primary care teams, one for each health board, have been approved while out-of-hours co-ops have been extended.

In respect of staffing, we are now just short of 100,000 people and the number of staff is continuing to increase. I do not need to provide details of the medical, dental and paramedical facilities. The Government's investment of over €500 million in the implementation of the national cancer strategy has had an enormous effect. We have established cardiac surgery centres in Galway, Cork and St. James's Hospital, to complement the existing centre at the Mater Hospital. We have provided enormous resources to the areas of mental health and disability. We have not eliminated waiting lists, but we have been doing a good job on them.

Ms McManus

The Government will not even publish the figures.

The Taoiseach

Approximately one third of the population has access to a medical card.

Mr. F. McGrath

What about the problems in St. James's Hospital last Monday at 9.15 p.m?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Ó Caoláin raised the issue of medical cards.

Ms McManus

We are still trying to——

The Taoiseach

The number of people——

Mr. F. McGrath

Last Monday night at 9.15 p.m.——

The Taoiseach

There is no point in me trying to speak because the Members opposite do not want to hear my answers.

Mr. F. McGrath

——there were 16 people on trolleys and chairs at St. James's Hospital.

Mr. D. Ahern

The Deputy should let the Taoiseach answer.

Mr. F. McGrath

They could not even find trolleys, so some of the people had to be put on chairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath, you are not the leader of the Sinn Féin Party.

Mr. Kenny

Sometimes he pretends to be the leader.

An Ceann Comhairle

Only Deputy Ó Caoláin and the Taoiseach are entitled to make a contribution.

Mr. F. McGrath

After the Government's first two years in power——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and to stay quiet.

Mr. F. McGrath

——there are 2,286 people with disabilities on waiting lists.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McGrath, I will ask you to leave the House if you interrupt once more.

Mr. F. McGrath

It is a disgrace.

Mr. Callely

Listen to the facts.

The Taoiseach

I was about to speak about disabilities before I was interrupted.

Ms O. Mitchell

The Taoiseach was talking about medical cards.

The Taoiseach

The Government has provided 1,700 additional residential places, which are mainly based in the community. Some 465 extra dedicated respite places have been provided in the past three years and 2,950 new day places have been developed. The number of persons with intellectual disability or autism who were resident in hospitals in May 2003 represented a significant decrease of 50%. I have given the facts. I was also asked about medical cards. We had a higher proportion of medical cards when unemployment was almost 20% in this country, but things have changed, thankfully.

Mr. Ring

Does the Taoiseach know how much it costs to go to a doctor?

Mr. Crawford

He does not.

Mr. Ring

He does not have a clue what is going on.

Ms O. Mitchell

He never indexed the thresholds.

The Taoiseach

I will conclude because Deputy Ó Caoláin will want to ask me more questions. He might take the opportunity to explain something to me. When I examined figures relating to when his party had control of the health service in Northern Ireland, I noticed that waiting lists increased dramatically during that time.

Ms O. Mitchell

That is wonderful.

Mr. Roche

The people of Northern Ireland are waiting for an apology.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach is well aware that, regrettably, we do not have autonomous governance in the Six Counties.

The Taoiseach

I referred to when his party had power.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We have to endure the continual interference of his good friends at Westminster.

Mr. D. Ahern

Some people have to endure knee replacements.

Mr. McDowell

Knees and ankles are a speciality.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We might have a very different situation if he worked a little harder to bring about change in that regard.

Mr. Roche

Why does Sinn Féin not apologise to the people of Northern Ireland for its actions?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

As usual, the Taoiseach has trundled out a list of figures and statistics and presented it as a reply. He has given no comfort to the 27,000 people who remain on hospital waiting lists. These people must "serve their sentence", in new Government-speak. Children must wait up to six months while adults wait 12 months to qualify for consideration for the treatment purchase fund. The Taoiseach has offered nothing in his reply to those people who are suffering. The word "suffering" must be repeated to him and the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin.

The Taoiseach should not claim we are all so better off today that fewer people need medical cards. Has the Taoiseach any idea of the number of people every week presenting themselves at Deputies' clinics who are concerned that the threshold for medical card qualification is so shamelessly low? People are forced into real poverty when they cannot afford to make the choice to bring their children to a GP and get subsequent medical care, including prescriptions. Will the Taoiseach raise the medical card threshold to a realistic figure to address this suffering in society? That is the least he can do if he actually means his claim last Sunday of honouring the Proclamation's ideal of "cherishing all the children of the nation equally". The Taoiseach should take the advice I and every Member has given on this issue and put it into practice.

Mr. Roche

The Deputy is a hypocrite.

The Taoiseach

The Government is committed to extending the numbers of people with medical cards. Everybody over 70 years of age has already received a medical card. The number of people aged 70 years and over is rising because of our better health services.

Ms O. Mitchell

Which means fewer people can get medical cards.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

One third of the population have medical cards. The Government is committed in the programme for Government to increasing this number. Deputy Ó Caoláin does not like the statistics.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is the Taoiseach who does not like the facts.

Ms McManus

The Taoiseach means the Government has reduced the number.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy cannot have his own time slot and then another. He cannot have it both ways.

Ms McManus

That is what the Taoiseach is having.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I simply want to answer the Deputy's question. He speaks for two minutes when I have a minute.

Ms Lynch

What about the 1,000 medical cards promised in two years?

Mr. Costello

The Government also promised 2,000 extra gardaí.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lynch, this is a question from the Sinn Féin Party.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

My question is for the Irish people.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin, I ask you to be silent. This is a democratic Parliament. The Deputy has submitted a question which he is entitled to do. The Taoiseach is entitled to give his answer.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. D. Ahern

If Sinn Féin wants democracy, we will give it democracy.

Mr. Roche

There will be no knee-capping then.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I will be brief if I am allowed the time. However, the Deputy obviously does not wish to give me that time. The Government has increased resources in the health sector. There are more staff, more facilities and buildings, and more community and health care workers to deal with the waiting lists. One needs the resources to create the staff. That is why 1 million people — 25% of the population — are receiving in-patient and out-patient treatment every year. The Government is putting significant resources into 20 projects in the State mainly in the staffing area. There are 100,000 people working in the health sector and the Government will continue with this commitment.