Denis Naughten
Question:42 Mr. Naughten asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he intends to roll out fixed speed cameras; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15816/04]
Other Questions.
Road Safety.
I am strongly of the view that some non-core functions carried out by gardaí could just as effectively be carried out by persons without full Garda powers. This is especially true of some aspects of the enforcement of road safety. The current provisions of the Road Traffic Acts specify that certain elements of the administration of its provisions should be carried out by members of the Garda, including the utilisation of cameras to detect speeding. Towards the end of 2003 and following consultations with the Garda Commissioner and my colleague the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, I established a working group to examine what scope existed to outsource the installation and operation of speed cameras. The group is chaired by my Department and comprises its representatives as well as those of the Garda Síochána, the Department of Transport and the National Roads Authority.
As part of its work, the group is considering what elements of speed detection might be outsourced, how camera sites should be chosen, what legislative changes are necessary to enable this to happen and how the financing of such a venture might be structured. The criteria by which camera sites will be chosen is of crucial importance. I understand that the Garda will continue to play a central, supervisory role in this regard. The working group will make recommendations on how to ensure public support for the new regime to prevent it being seen by people as a revenue generation racket. The group will draw on the considerable expertise of the National Safety Council to achieve this.
It seems likely that the emphasis will be on mobile camera devices rather than on fixed sites consisting of grey boxes on poles. This will facilitate a speedier and more flexible response to monitoring locations of particular concern. Outsourcing the installation and operation of speed cameras will require legislative change. Members of the working group have been involved in work on the road traffic Bill being prepared by the Minister for Transport. The Bill will provide for non-Garda involvement in the operation of speed cameras. Its preparation is well advanced and the Minister for Transport hopes to bring it before the Houses of the Oireachtas during this session.
I am informed that the working group is continuing its detailed examination of the issues involved. At issue is a fundamentally new approach. Deputy Jim O'Keeffe will appreciate that it is vital to take the time to get the system right, especially in view of our earlier discussion of where things may have gone wrong.
What is the position on fixed speed cameras? I presume the same law will apply to them as applies to hand-held radar detection guns and that operators will be obliged to carry a document which can be shown to an accused person. Who would hand the document over and what procedures will be put in place from that point of view? Have any fixed speed cameras been purchased and employed or are we starting afresh with procedures to be put in place following the report of the working group? What costings are involved? Will the Minister provide the House with more practical details of the proposals? He might also indicate the expected timeframe.
I do not wish to anticipate the results of the working group's studies. By definition, fixed grey-box speed cameras produce a record of the kind in question. As there is no garda sitting inside the box, whatever it produces must constitute a record of a car and its speed. Nobody else is there to witness an offence. While the record is not furnished on the spot to the motorist, it is furnished at a later point to the registered owner of the car with the usual request where he or she was not the driver at the time of the offence to identify the driver or to accept responsibility and pay the penalty.
Deputy Jim O'Keeffe asked about costs. Mobile cameras are much more flexible in their operation. A number of commercial concerns have shown me their wares in an effort to interest me in the matter and I can inform the Deputy that a wide variety of technologies are available. There are a significant number of commercial operators with systems to offer.
At what cost?
I am not in a position to state what the costs would be. It would be unwise to do so as there will eventually be some form of tendering process.
I am interested in being given a ballpark idea of the kind of money which will be involved. I understand the Garda already has 480 of the hand-held devices known as hairdryers which apparently do not comply with legislation subsequently passed to apply to them. That is a separate issue.
If the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Transport, proposes to provide fixed speed cameras, I would like to be given some idea of the sums being talked about, the number of devices in question and the proposed date of their introduction. There should be a proper arrangement between the Ministers on this matter. The issue of speed cameras is up in the air while there is dreadful carnage on the roads. The public wants to know when an effective system which complies fully with the law will be put in place.
This is the responsibility of my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Brennan. I am not passing the buck or trying to abdicate responsibility but, as far as the legislation is involved, responsibility for developing policy and choosing different systems rests primarily with the Department of Transport. It used to lie with the Department for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I agree with the Deputy that there should be full co-operation between the Garda and the relevant office of the Department of Transport so that there are no cracks in the floor boards through which things would fall, and that legislation is fully compatible with practice and what is practicable in any case so that it is not driven from a theoretical point of view which excludes practical experience.
The Garda Commissioner has pledged complete involvement and support for the reforming legislation of the Minister, Deputy Brennan, in this area. The type of cameras to be used depends on the system chosen by the Department of Transport. It will not be chosen exclusively by my Department or by the Garda. I am not in a position to elaborate further. We must put in place a durable and flexible statutory basis for the operation of these systems and for their outsourcing so that the system does not fall foul of rigidities in the legislation which are unnecessary in the first place.
Prisons Building Programme.
Joan Burton
Question:43 Ms Burton asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he has made a decision on the expressions of interest in the construction of a new prison in a greenfield site close to Dublin to replace Mountjoy Prison, which he told Dáil Éireann he expected to make by the end of March 2004; when he will announce a decision on the matter; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16305/04]
The Office of Public Works was asked earlier this year to assist in the identification of possible sites for a complex to replace the current prison facilities centred around Mountjoy Prison. The Office of Public Works subsequently made inquiries which included the placing of advertisements in the national press and, arising from this process, approximately 30 potential sites have been submitted for consideration.
In view of the importance of identifying the most appropriate site and in the light of the large number of potential sites, I have decided to establish an expert group, chaired by my Department with input from the Office of Public Works and the Irish Prison Service, to examine the potential sites on the basis of comprehensive and objective criteria and to report back to me. I propose to await the results of the considerations of this group before proceeding further.
This is a priority of mine and I am establishing the group with a view to speeding up the process rather than slowing it down. This project is long overdue and needs to be progressed energetically. The new prison campus holds open the prospect of a much enhanced prison infrastructure for Dublin city and of much better facilities for prisoners, along with better working conditions for prison officers and a much more civilised prison regime.
I look forward to early results from the expert group and to the selection of a site so that the process can begin. It will clearly not be a city centre site because that no longer makes economic sense. Recreational space is needed and the prison needs to be away from places where drugs might be thrown in over walls. It will be outside Dublin and must be accessible to motorway transport. That narrows the field to some extent. We are operating on the basis that the prison campus would need to be extended to between 80 and 100 acres to accommodate the range of institutions and service support facilities required for a modern facility of that kind.
I am not clear what is intended by the Minister. Could he clarify matters? He said he intended to make a decision by the end of March yet he is now setting up an expert group which presumably will have an open-ended timeframe in which to report. When is it likely to make its report? Does the Minister intend to demolish Mountjoy men's prison, Saint Patrick's juvenile institution, the training unit, the women's prison and Mountjoy Garda station? Will all that go in one fell swoop to deprive the entire area of the penal and Garda facilities? Is it intended to demolish the entire structure? There is a good deal of concern about this given that Mountjoy Prison is 150 years old. It has been home to patriots and poets and has many architectural, historical and heritage characteristics. All that must be taken into consideration.
Regarding greenfield sites, there are considerations for families travelling there. Mountjoy Prison is adjacent to the city centre, so there is a major consideration regarding the new prison in terms of public transport. There are not many areas of north Dublin easily accessible by public transport. The situation is not much better on the south side.
I detect a certain reluctance on the part of Deputy Costello to see this change take place. If I thought for a minute that it made sense to continue developing the city centre location as a prison site, I would have found that much more convenient, but it is not acceptable. It is not possible to provide a proper modern prison on the Mountjoy site with all the necessary medical and other facilities which a proper prison complex should have.
The Deputy asked if it is intended to have the training unit, St. Patrick's Institution, the women's prison and the Mountjoy Garda station included in the property disposal. It is the initial intention to dispose of all of these. The Deputy asked what would happen to the historic buildings there. I have seen one figurative redevelopment scheme which was prepared with a view to ascertaining the value of the site, in which a number of the landmark aspects of the prison were preserved as architectural features of a re-development which included water spaces and so on, along with an attractive apartment complex. The Deputy should look forward to that as an enhancement of his constituency rather than anything else.
Regarding the possibility of preserving the entire prison on the basis that it is 150 years old, we cannot preserve all our prisons as museums. Kilmainham Gaol is a magnificent facility in terms of a preserved prison, but we do not need to have two competing museum prisons in Dublin. Individual features of Mountjoy Prison might have an architectural or historic interest. One of those has been mentioned, namely, the gallows and the building in which it is housed. Some might think this macabre but others may think it of huge significance. We will address these issues later. Many Irish patriots gave their lives for this country in that place and it would be sad if it were simply demolished and cleared away as builders' rubble.
I take it that the Minister is not flying blind financially. Will he give us some idea of the guidelines he has on costings? Even on a ballpark basis, what value would be placed on the Mountjoy complex in terms of redevelopment? What sort of costings are involved for building the new structure? Size is clearly relevant. How many prison places has the Minister in mind? What sort of ballpark figure is involved? Will the Minister give some indication of the possible sites? He said he is restricted because of the need to have sufficient space for security and other reasons. Has he a list of possible locations for the new prison? How long will all this work take?
Regarding the timescale, I aim to make an early decision on this project. We have under consideration approximately 30 sites proffered by their current owners. Some of these appear to be suitable for our purpose. I do not propose to publish this list for the obvious reason that these people have tendered their land in confidence and have indicated prices.
Are they all in County Dublin?
They are all within easy access of Dublin city.
Are any in Dublin 4?
What was Deputy O'Keeffe's other question?
I am interested in the cost.
While it is difficult to put an exact value on the complex of buildings at Mountjoy in the context of redevelopment, I imagine it is somewhere between €40 million and €80 million. The cost of acquiring the land for a new premises would be possibly between €7 million and €15 million in current use terms.
What of the new buildings?
Depending on what is built, the new buildings would cost approximately €100 million to €120 million.
How many beds would there be?
It depends on how many cell spaces are put into the prison and its exact configuration. While I am not in a position to give an exact number at this stage, it would be substantially larger accommodation.
There is also the question of the Dóchas women's centre, which is a high quality facility but grossly inadequate in terms of capacity for the needs for which it was established. I am sorry to say the goals of the facility were overly optimistic even relatively recently. It is important to emphasise that I have no intention of downgrading or producing a facility which is of lower quality than that in place at present. An equivalent women's institution of an equivalent architectural quality would cost a significant amount of money to build. We must generate a public private partnership model for this. A design, build and finance model, including maintenance for a period, is what we have in mind to ensure we get good quality. The facility would be one which would be affordable within the prisons capital and current programme, which is substantial at present.
These issues will be fleshed out in the near future. There are other questions such as ancillary medical supports.
The Minister has taken much time to deal with this issue.
I am sorry. However, I wish to point out that there are questions surrounding the improvement of ancillary medical services.
Who would run it?
Since I entered the House today, Deputy O'Keeffe is the only one who has been asking unscheduled supplementary questions.
They were five second, genuine inquiries.
As Deputies Costello and Ó Snodaigh are offering, I will take a supplementary question from each of them.
The Prison Service will continue to run the facility as long as that is economically possible.
When the capital punishment legislation was going through in 1990, the then Minister for Justice, Mr. Ray Burke, agreed with me that the hangman's cells would be transferred to the National Museum. Will the Minister consider this?
With regard to Question No. 43, has consideration been given to the building of the new criminal courts complex close to this huge new prison which the Minister plans? While he said there will be motorway access to the prison, will there be public transport access of the type required?
The execution shed at Mountjoy is a place where people sacrificed their lives for this country and where many brave people died for the creation of an independent Ireland. The Deputy has suggested one possible location for it. Another possibility would be to relocate it to Kilmainham.
Deputy Ó Snodaigh's question trenches on the next question, which I do not want to anticipate. It would be better to leave the issue until the next question.
Will there be a court facility?
There will be some form of transport.
Written answers follow Adjournment Debate.