Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 Jun 2004

Vol. 587 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

There are a lot of backbenchers in again this morning for the Taoiseach.

Last Friday the Government was held accountable by the people, who gave their verdict. Every day in the House Opposition Deputies seek to hold Ministers accountable and in that context the parliamentary question is a vital instrument of accountability. Everyone remembers the words of the late Mr. Justice Hamilton, who said that if parliamentary questions had been answered truthfully and completely there might have been no need for a very expensive beef tribunal. I have noticed a trend in the last few years that some Ministers have become quite arrogant about their parliamentary responsibilities and the principle of providing full, complete answers to Dáil questions, a vital democratic instrument for Opposition Deputies.

I raise this matter because as head of Government the Taoiseach has a responsibility to ensure that Ministers fulfil their obligations in this regard. I also raise it because yesterday it became quite clear that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform misled the House in replying to a parliamentary question on 3 June and no apology has been offered to the House since. The facts of the case are clear. On 3 June Deputy Jim O'Keeffe asked the Minister if, prior to his appointment as a judge, Mr. Brian Curtin had been appointed as a member of any State agency, State board or committee. The Minister replied that in August 2001 Mr. Curtin, as he was then, had been appointed by the then Minister for Justice, Deputy O'Donoghue, as a member of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal. Following a further question from Deputy O'Keeffe, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform admitted yesterday that Mr. Curtin, as he was then, had also been appointed to the Garda Appeals Board panel by the Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue, in May 2001. Neither in his reply to yesterday's question nor in a letter he sent to Deputy O'Keeffe did the Minister express any regret for having misled the House on 3 June.

I accept the Taoiseach is unlikely to have all the details of the case but I will supply him with the papers. Will he therefore explain to Ministers their responsibilities in giving full and complete answers to Dáil questions and will he ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to apologise to the House for having misled it on an important matter?

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Kenny gives me the papers I will look at the specific case. Obviously if a person is on a State board or State agency then normally that information is given in the parliamentary reply if it is given to the Minister by his Department. That is the normal procedure. If the fact that the person was on the Garda Appeals Board or the Refugee Appeals Tribunal was missed then obviously the Minister would not have given that information and he gave it yesterday. If the Deputy gives me the data I will look at it.

Parliamentary replies and the procedure for such replies is a matter of long precedent in the House. Ministers are obliged, both with parliamentary questions and oral questions, to give information. They are supplied by their Departments with supplementary data which they use to the extent necessary in replies. Over the years we have had to deal with parliamentary replies going on for too long and taking up time for supplementary questions. I assure Deputy Kenny that the Government's attitude is that as long as it is a departmental matter, not an agency matter when we tend to say that it is a matter for the agency, we should give full and complete information. That is the process Ministers and Ministers of State follow here every day and there is no change in that. If the Deputy gives me the papers I will check the individual case.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for saying he will check these papers. It is perfectly clear that the information had to be dragged out of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I assume a file exists in that Department on the appointment of persons to State boards, committees and panels. When former Deputy Nora Owen was Minister for Justice Deputy O'Donoghue was the Opposition spokesperson and when the fax machine refused to work in the Department it nearly provoked a constitutional crisis.

Allegations are being made to me that this information was deliberately concealed by the Minister. I am not making that charge but I would like the Taoiseach to ask the Minister to deal with this matter before the House. He should instruct all his Ministers to give full, thorough and complete information to Deputies insofar as possible when answering parliamentary questions. After all, the Government was held accountable by and received a mid-term verdict from the people last Friday. If it is now to reflect on the consequences of that verdict then it should, in the interests of democracy, give full and complete answers. Will the Taoiseach instruct his Ministers to do that? Will he deal specifically with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when I present him with these papers, which clearly show that the House was misled about appointments made by the previous Minister for Justice involving Mr. Brian Curtin?

The Taoiseach

As I said I will check the second point, but I note that Deputy Kenny accepts that this was probably an omission. Normally it is something that would be included in a reply and if it were omitted I do not think the Minister was misleading the House in any way. Obviously he replied the second time but I will check it out.

For the past seven years, since the start of this Government, it has been our intention to give full information in parliamentary replies. When agencies have responsibility, it is not the Department which is giving information. I know it creates frustration when Members table questions to a Minister and they do not get the information because it is the agency's responsibility. That has long been a procedure of the House where the information is with either commercial or non-commercial State companies. That is something over which we do not have control.

Mr. Rabbitte

I find that interesting. It may not have been deliberate but, for example, for seven weeks I tried to get information on non-national births in the Dublin maternity hospitals. I finally got a reply this morning dated 11 June. I got pages of details on where babies were born which, for the seven weeks before the referendum, I was told was not in the possession of any agency. I am afraid I am not as forgiving as Deputy Kenny.

Will the Taoiseach instruct the Minister for Finance to dip into the crock of gold——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to ask one question on a topical issue. He started off on a different issue.

Mr. Rabbitte

Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for Finance to dip into the crock of gold the Revenue Commissioners found yesterday to fund the aide-mémoire the Minister for Health and Children brought to the Cabinet in which he pointed out that €460 million worth of facilities were lying idle? The Revenue Commissioners discovered €500 million yesterday from their latest off-shore investigation, bringing the total from investigations to €1.52 billion. Major facilities are lying idle, including complete new wings in Mullingar Hospital and in James Connolly Memorial Hospital, a maternity facility in Letterkenny, new wings in Clonmel and Naas Hospitals and radiotherapy units in Galway and Waterford.

I notice the massed ranks behind the Taoiseach can scarce forbear to cheer. After last night's meeting and last week and whatever the Progressive Democrats or the Minister for Finance, the Progressive Democrat's cuckoo in the Fianna Fáil nest, say, will the Taoiseach make these resources available to the health services since the Minister for Health and Children said in the aide-mémoire that if this was done, it would have an immediate impact on relieving pressure on services such as acute hospitals, services for older people, mental health services, services for persons with an intellectual disability or autism and adult homelessness? What is the Taoiseach’s response to the Minister for Health and Children’s aide-mémoire?

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Health and Children's aide-mémoire pointed out that he had spent €1.7 billion on health infrastructure in the past few years.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Given that he has spent €1.7 billion on health infrastructure, there is a number of units throughout the country which he now wishes to open.

Mr. F. McGrath

There are people with disabilities on waiting lists.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Having built these new units, the most modern facilities we have ever had and many of which have been opened and commissioned, the Minister for Health and Children now has €2.7 billion to spend on health infrastructure in the next round from 2004 to 2007.

Mr. Connaughton

What about Tuam Hospital?

The Taoiseach

The Minister will have spent a total of €4.4 billion in his period in office. I note Deputy Rabbitte mentioned some of the units the Minister and this Government have built. I am sure he will be equally supportive when all these units are opened and commissioned.

Mr. Rabbitte

It seems the Taoiseach has learnt nothing. He must have got an easier ride from the vocal backbenchers last night than I thought. There is no point talking in statistics and in billions of euro when the Taoiseach can get first-hand experience. All he needs to do is talk to all his retired councillors who phoned Joe Duffy to make public confession yesterday. He should ask them about the billions of euro spent.

The hard reality is that people cannot get access to a hospital bed when they need one. Accident and emergency departments are grossly overcrowded. For example, there is a splendid new accident and emergency facility in the new wing of the James Connolly Memorial Hospital which has been lying idle for more than a year and cannot be commissioned. Staff there are expected to work in impossible circumstances, yet the Taoiseach cites the figures spent by this Government during the boom years. The fact is that the health services are not working.

I pointed out to the Taoiseach that he got €500 million yesterday in taxes evaded which he did not expect from the Minister for Finance, who said the sums uncovered were very small in the context of the level of tax paid each year and that it needed to be put in context. He said it was an insult to the vast majority of taxpayers to say that tax evasion is widespread. Some €1.5 billion in taxes evaded has been recouped to date but the Taoiseach still will not open the facilities lying idle around the country, tackle the clutter in accident and emergency departments or deal with radiotherapy services for Waterford and Galway.

The Taoiseach

I have already stated that the Minister for Health and Children has a large capital programme. Those units built will be opened and commissioned.

Ms McManus

When?

The Taoiseach

Some of the units Deputy Rabbitte mentioned have not yet been built so it would be hard to open them, but we will build and open them as well.

Dr. Cowley

Some 63 beds have been lying idle in Castlebar Hospital since 2001.

Mr. Connaughton

What about Tuam?

The Taoiseach

We will continue our programme of opening and extending acute hospitals, putting in new facilities, improving cancer treatment services——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

——and improving the radiotherapy service and all the other services. The Government will continue to do that.

Mr. Connaughton

People know it is not able to do that.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What policy changes does the Taoiseach propose to introduce in response to the clamour from his backbenchers? How does he propose to reconcile their demands and his own assertion of opposition to privatisation, specifically in regard to Aer Rianta, with the assertion of the Tánaiste that tough decisions must now be taken, which we all recognise as shorthand for Progressive Democrats decisions that include wholesale privatisation? Does the Taoiseach agree with Deputy McGuinness that the Progressive Democrats would be better referred to as the Oppressive Democrats? Does he agree with Deputy Brendan Smith, my constituency colleague, who said that what is needed is less Progressive Democrats policy? Does he agree with his unsuccessful candidate in the North West constituency, the Minister of State, Deputy McDaid, who said prior to the election that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was wired up to the moon? Many in this House certainly agree with him, but I am anxious to know whether the Taoiseach does. Does the Taoiseach accept that the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats coalition has run its course, overstayed its time and that we are now looking at the end game?

Will the Taoiseach tell us what policy changes in the health area his Government proposes to introduce having come to recognise the reality of people's concern and ire throughout the length and breadth of the State? Will he lead Fianna Fáil into the next general election?

(Interruptions).

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Maybe he will also tell us when he expects that general election to take place.

An Ceann Comhairle

As I pointed out to Deputy Rabbitte, the Deputy should ask one question on a topical issue.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

They were all related to a topical issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

They may be related but the Deputy asked at least three different questions.

The Taoiseach

It is difficult for me to answer only one question when the Deputy asked me nine. His first question struck a chord with me. He wanted to know what policy changes I would make. At least I have changed some of my policies; I am still trying to work out what the Deputy's are.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach will be able to answer that question——

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption. If the Taoiseach addressed his remarks through the Chair, it might not provoke interruption from the Deputy.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——when I or one of my colleagues is in his seat in the not too distant future, but for the moment he is the one responsible.

Mr. Durkan

That is putting it up to the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Now that Deputy Ó Caoláin has said he is going to take over shortly——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We are.

The Taoiseach

——if one were to add up the seats won by the three parties that had some views about taking over this position, they did not increase. The number of seats won by the Deputy's party did increase. I grant him that, but I look forward to hearing what his policy platform is because I am still trying to work that out.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach should not worry. He does not seem to be able to work out his own policies.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin, allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I have been trying to work that out for seven years.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach seems to have a difficulty when it comes to policy.

The Taoiseach

I have no doubt it will be flexible. It will be like everything else you like to——

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Taoiseach addressed his remarks through the Chair, we might not have the level of interruption from the Deputy.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach should answer the questions I asked him.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin, allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

A serious question was asked on health. The Government has brought to a very high level the resources invested in health in the capital programme and in staffing and services. Clearly, there are still difficulties and problems. They have been well put forward by the Minister for Health and Children. It is the Government's intention to continue, as per our programme in Government, to try to complete units under construction, to open those units and to try to plan further improvements, particularly in primary care, acute care, cancer services, services for those with disabilities and mental health care. These are areas in which we have clear policies and where we are fully or partially implementing our programmes. Those are the policy areas in respect of which we are anxious to complete our programmes.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach has not advised us whether he will lead Fianna Fáil into the general election. I suppose one would have to presume that he will because an exit strategy was not on offer to him from Europe. Assuredly if it were, he would be through it as an escape hole as quick as any Drumcondra hare ever could.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach has responded to a question the Deputy asked.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

A year ago, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste co-signed a progress report that stated step by step, promise by promise, year by year that the Government is delivering its promises and keeping faith with the people. Does the Taoiseach accept that the people have punished him quite severely throughout the jurisdiction because he failed to keep any of his pre-election promises? Is that not the reality and the analysis he must reach in his post-mortem on the results of the local and European elections last Friday?

In relation to health, we ask the Taoiseach to read the published report of the public health alliance of Ireland which clearly indicates and exposes once again——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——the glaring inequality in health care where 40% of people surveyed identified financial concerns as the real reason they cannot look forward to improved health. That is the reality and we have highlighted it here to the Taoiseach many times. I ask him again what will he do about it. Will he provide medical card cover most especially for all young people under 18 years of age? It is children who are suffering and parents who are facing the anguish of that choice every day.

Mr. Morgan

Here, here.

The Taoiseach

It is the Government's intention to continue to provide the needy and the less well off in our society with the best possible services in hospitals, in their communities and in the health services to meet their medical needs. It is a policy we have been pursuing all the time. We have done that successfully in most categories. We have given medical cards to the aged, regardless of their income or circumstances. A large proportion of the population of this State has a medical card. There are some questions around the guidelines on which we continue to try to improve, as we have done. We continue to put resources into the facilities and the services that people need.

Regarding the Deputy's other political points, I agree we received some punishment from the electorate last week. However, thankfully, it was in the ballot box and not otherwise. It is always good in a democracy to stick to that means of doing so.

In regard to the job in Europe, I think that if I were really interested in that job I would have that job.

Mr. Durkan

There is confidence for you.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We all believe you.

The Taoiseach

However, when it comes to getting €1 million for working in Europe or staying at home to do the job I like doing, I will continue to do this job.

Mr. Durkan

We really appreciate that.

Mr. Rabbitte

When Schröder saw the gear in Havana, that is what did it. The Taoiseach had it up to then. He had it in the bag.

The Taoiseach

He liked it. I had to add some colour.

Mr. Durkan

It was the yellow trousers that did it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions.