Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 2004

Vol. 590 No. 5

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

I want to raise an issue which should unite and not divide the House. Yesterday, we learned of the kidnapping in Baghdad of an Irish citizen, Mrs. Margaret Hassan. Mrs. Hassan, as the House will know, is the chief in Iraq of the British based charity, CARE International. Mrs. Hassan has shown absolute commitment and selfless generosity towards the Iraqi people for many years. Her kidnapping is an appalling crime against a woman who has given years of service to her adopted country.

In saying this and in uniting the House, I have several questions for the Taoiseach. What is the current level of diplomatic contact between Ireland and Iraq? Is it known to Government sources what organisation or body is responsible for the kidnap of Mrs. Hassan? Is it known to Government whether contacts exist between the provisional Iraqi Government and this group, or are there unofficial contacts with or lines of communication to this group? In that sense, the Taoiseach might outline the efforts being made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Government to secure the safe and early release of Margaret Hassan.

The Taoiseach

I and the House join with Deputy Kenny in expressing sympathy to the family of Margaret Hassan. This is a terrible deed against her family, the CARE International community and all of her friends, of which she has many in this country as well as her family in Kerry and London. Margaret Hassan was born in Dublin but also has British citizenship and under the law in Iraq 20 years ago, when working in Baghdad, she had to take Iraqi citizenship also. All three countries, therefore, will work to assist her.

We have spoken directly to the family and our officials have spoken to her husband. All diplomatic channels are being used, in particular those in the British system as they have links to the authorities in Baghdad. However, we also have direct links to Margaret's husband and to her family here in Ireland.

It is not yet known what group is directly involved but, as with a number of recent cases, there is a range of organisations and it is probably within that grouping. Late into the night and early this morning, efforts continued to be made by the Department of Foreign Affairs, the British Foreign Secretary, Mr. Jack Straw, and others in Baghdad to try to form a contact link.

All recent kidnap victims have been decent and innocent people. Margaret Hassan did not take any precautions and was engaged at all times in working for the Iraqi people through her humanitarian work in Baghdad. She is a part of the biggest humanitarian organisation in the world, which is working to provide relief measures and promote co-operation. She was involved in organising medical relief for Basra and other areas, and is well known on the ground through her humanitarian work. She is also well known for her mobility because, in spite of everything that has been happening, she continued to act as a link. She is not just a person working as part of an aid team but is well known because she has been working in this area for over 20 years, and is known by most of the activist groups in the area. This is why people are baffled that she should be taken. I assure the House that, for our part, we will do everything we can to assist in her early release.

Mr. Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for outlining the efforts the Government has made to date in this regard. Does the Government intend to issue a statement in respect of the presence of other Irish citizens in Iraq indicating concern that other unfortunate kidnappings might take place? Is it intended, for instance, that the Minister for Foreign Affairs might consider issuing an Irish passport if that were so desired by the Hassan family, and to which Mrs. Hassan is properly entitled? I was struck by the words of her husband when he said that Margaret was and is loved by all the Iraqi people. I share the Taoiseach's view of the validity of the great work she has done in Iraq over many years.

This is not an issue to divide the House but a matter of Irish unity on an issue that concerns us all. In that respect, I suggest that the House be suspended at some time during the day so that all Members, of all parties and none, could send a statement of absolute, unanimous support for the diplomatic efforts of the Government, by whatever contact, to secure the safe and early release of Margaret Hassan. It would strengthen the call, which the Irish people and we, their representatives, can validly say is in everybody's interest. We had a very unfortunate experience recently. In that context I respectfully suggest that the Taoiseach suspend business at an appropriate time during the day for a very short debate by which we could get unanimous support for the efforts of Government to secure Mrs. Hassan's early release to her husband and family.

The Taoiseach

Let me reassure Deputy Kenny that diplomatic efforts will continue. The Minister for Foreign Affairs will be meeting the Secretary of State, Mr. Paul Murphy, later today on other business and will also deal with this issue. We will also keep in touch with the British authorities who have people on the ground.

On the question of Irish citizens in the area, since the conflict began instructions have been given regarding the safety of Irish citizens in Iraq. However, many of the Irish citizens there are married to Iraqis and do not wish to leave. Iraq is their home, their life, and we must understand and appreciate that.

It has been stated in international circles that this action is unusual in terms of the recent actions against workers and contractors. While they were 100% wrong and everybody everywhere condemns them, it represents a change in emphasis to take somebody who would almost certainly have been known to the people involved. Most of these groups would know Mrs. Hassan because she is a key activist and has been openly engaged in the movement of medicines and other issues in the past few years. Perhaps that is the reason they questioned her. She had not taken any security precautions and continued to do this work. That is what makes this action all the more grave.

I agree with the proposal that we should have a short debate and pass a unanimous resolution of the House which we can then get into the Middle East network where it will at least be acknowledged. That will be arranged today.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Labour Party supports Deputy Kenny's proposal, to which the Taoiseach has agreed, to debate a motion that would record the view of this House that it is reprehensible that a woman with a record of humanitarian good work should have her liberty interfered with in this fashion.

Two reports were published this week, one by the Childhood Development Initiative in Tallaght and one by the Trinity Children's Research Centre, both highlight in the most stark fashion the inequalities in our society. The Trinity report shows that the number of children living in housing that is overcrowded, damp, in disrepair and in poor neighbourhoods has more than doubled between 1991 and 2002. The report from Tallaght, covering four estates in west Tallaght, highlights under every index of deprivation that it is not a case of the Celtic tiger being back but of the Celtic tiger economy never impacting in certain areas, certainly in urban Ireland. The Trinity report bears out that the facts highlighted in the west Tallaght report are replicated in several other major urban areas. That report shows that a total of 90% of children live in fear of anti-social activity, that 25% of children live in damp and unheated housing, and that there is a serious level of educational deprivation. It also refers to a number of other matters that demonstrate that after all the years of prosperity no impact has been made in terms of improving the condition of people on the bottom rung of the economic ladder.

What is the Taoiseach's response to the recommendations in these reports? What is his response to the aggravating impact of the 16 social welfare cuts that are, for example, causing lone parents to leave the workforce and stay at home? What is the Government's response to the impact of inadequate policing and of the failure to expand early school intervention or act on a host of other recommendations in the west Tallaght report?

The Taoiseach

I welcome the report of the Childhood Development Initiative in west Tallaght. It is an excellent report which I had the opportunity to examine last night. I thank the community in west Tallaght for highlighting the issues. The Government is keenly aware of some of the issues but they have been highlighted in such a way that we must now take action. Our focus is not just on that community but on the 25 communities represented in the areas of disadvantage that are being targeted in a number of programmes set up to assist them. I also welcome the engagement of the west Tallaght community in this process.

All of the houses in this area, which includes Jobstown, Fettercairn, Killinarden, Brookfield, have been built within the past 20 years. I was a member of Dublin Corporation when all of these were planned and built. These houses are of very recent vintage compared to accommodation in other areas. The schools and community facilities in the area were built within the past 20 years. My colleague, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, has met representatives of the organisations in the area to discuss the issues of deprivation, social exclusion and poverty in the area. As the report highlights, there are many incidences of this.

The findings of the report confirm that there is a need for action in a number of areas. It is up to the Government to try to deal with these issues. The report highlights housing as one of the key issues. It recommends that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and South Dublin County Council should develop a number of housing schemes in the west Tallaght area. As Deputy Rabbitte knows, a total of €105 million is being spent on that. We are also delivering to the communities concerned through the local authority housing estate enhancement scheme, which is very important to the area.

Play spaces and sports facilities were also highlighted in the report. We have spent €9 million in the greater Tallaght area under the sports capital programme. I understand further play areas, also highlighted in the report, are being developed in this area. Money is also being spent and plans formulated under the heading of the young people's facilities funds. A total of €7 million has been allocated under two rounds of the Tallaght local drugs task force in the past five years in the area.

Deputy Rabbitte asked what action will be taken on some of the initiatives. There is provision of early start pre-school places for children at risk of social disadvantage. Three schools in Tallaght are participating in the scheme. Four schools in Tallaght are participating in reading support programmes.

An Ceann Comhairle

The time for this has expired.

The Taoiseach

I will come back to the Deputy. There are specific answers to his questions. The report contains very positive recommendations. It is not a report that merely criticises. I agree that we should try to implement those recommendations and I have a list of them.

Mr. Rabbitte

I agree with the Taoiseach. It is a very positive report about a very positive community. The Taoiseach is also right when he says it is only one of 25 such communities that are disadvantaged. How can the Taoiseach say with a straight face that he proposes to respond to this when the RAPID programme, for example, was designed to do precisely that? A year in advance of the last general election, the Taoiseach, Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats announced that €2 billion of the national development plan would be fast-tracked to 25 disadvantaged areas, precisely to do the things the Taoiseach read out in his note to the House. As soon as the election was over, they reversed engines and pulled the plug on the RAPID programme. Even though it has just scrapped the programme, the Government is now running around looking for nondescript projects to relabel as RAPID ones.

The statistics in this report are shameful to a country so wealthy. After more than a decade of unprecedented economic growth, children in a quarter of the houses surveyed are cold at night and there is heating in only one room. The dropout rate in education is almost 20%. The Taoiseach speaks of the Early Start and Breaking the Cycle programmes. However, these were introduced on a pilot basis by the former Minister for Education, Ms Niamh Breathnach, in the mid 1990s and have not been expanded since. Fianna Fáil has estimated that it can be re-elected without addressing these seriously disadvantaged areas. It is shameful that the housing estates surveyed, which the Tánaiste knows, were built 20 years ago when she and I walked the footpaths there.

The Taoiseach

The Early Start and reading programmes, the extra teaching resources and measures to introduce early school leaving through the school completion programme are all happening in the area. There are six primary schools, 19 post-primary schools and schools completion programme co-ordinators have been appointed. The clusters received a combined allocation of over €1.2 million. In all of these areas, as Deputy Rabbitte will know as their representative, a considerable amount of work is being undertaken which the report acknowledges. The report refers to further problems experienced such as heating provision and play areas, some of which have been built and others are in train. The report also refers to cultural and sporting issues and demands more action in these areas.

A number of Ministers have been involved in helping this community and other areas. It is not true to claim that no considerable expenditure is going into education, housing and other facilities in disadvantaged areas. The Government will continue to put in good education facilities, including pre-school, after school services and, in many cases, meals for school children. As Deputy Rabbitte knows the pupil teacher ratio in these schools is extremely high because the children require extra help. I accept a higher Garda presence is required in these areas. However, I do not accept no action has been taken. The report is asking for further action and resources for these areas which the Government accepts.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

On behalf of the Sinn Féin Members, and I expect I am reflecting the views of the Technical Group Members, I support Deputy Kenny's proposal for the House to press for the immediate release of the Irish international aid worker, Margaret Hassan, in Iraq.

Over 1,300 Aer Lingus workers now face redundancy. The future of the company as a State asset in the service of the people is now in jeopardy. Workers' representatives have expressed their concern for the future of the company and how the situation has been misrepresented in the House, particularly in the Taoiseach's replies on the matter to myself and Deputy Joe Higgins. On 5 October on Leaders' Questions, the Taoiseach stated in a reply to me that in the early 1990s the Government had put substantial resources of £360 million into Aer Lingus. Does the Taoiseach accept that this figure is incorrect and that the correct amount was £175 million paid in three stages: £75 million at the end of 1993, £50 million at the end of 1994 and £50 million at the end of 1995? This comes to a sum less than half that indicated by the Taoiseach in his reply. In a reply to Deputy Joe Higgins, the Taoiseach stated, "While Aer Lingus has difficulties and aviation is having enormous difficulties there are now restrictions on investing capital". Does the Taoiseach accept that Aer Lingus is not having financial difficulties and, therefore, there are no restrictions on the State, as the major shareholder, investing capital in the company? The Taoiseach also stated, "While in 1993 the State could give significant [State] aid, we cannot do that anymore". Is it not the case that an investment at present would not constitute state aid, but would be a commercial investment by a shareholder as the company is profitable and that any such investment would not be regarded as a subsidy? There is no barrier to the State intervention necessary to ensure the continued viability of the company.

The Taoiseach

I cannot recall what figures were referred to but I will not dispute them. My point was that in 1993 when the company was in severe difficulties and I was Minister for Finance, the State gave subsidies when there was no State aid issue. The difficulty with State aid now is that other companies object to it. One then enters into the long process of EU competition policy which can take up to 18 months. This has happened in the case of other airlines.

A total of 1,620 expressions in interest in the voluntary severance and early retirement package were received by the closing date of Friday, 15 October. These are now in the process of assessment by the company. Talks between Aer Lingus management and staff, with the assistance of an independent facilitator, on staff related issues arising from the implementation of the business plan also concluded last Friday. However, follow-on discussions are continuing between Aer Lingus management and the workers' representatives SIPTU on a number of issues, mainly relating to catering, cleaning and reservation area. IMPACT has advised Aer Lingus that it is in dispute with the company concerning major work practice changes being sought with cabin crews from 26 October. The company has implemented its new fares strategy to allow it to remain competitive and expects fares to decrease over the next few years. The Goldman Sachs report on Aer Lingus is now being considered by the Minister for Transport and his officials, as I informed Deputy Rabbitte yesterday. This report will form an input by the Minister's deliberation to the Cabinet sub-committee on any decision the Government will make on the future of Aer Lingus.

As I told the House a fortnight ago, I appreciate the work of management, the unions and workers' representatives in dealing with the company's situation. Aer Lingus is one of the few airline companies in profit which is a credit to the work done by all sides. Mr. Willie Walsh, the unions and staff representatives all deserve credit for the effort they have put in for the last three years in turning around the company from a loss-making position. Some of the workers have suffered considerable hardship because of this and more will go in the latest round. However, they have made their expressions of interest in the latest available package. The Government will continue to assist the company, based on the recommendations of the Goldman Sachs report.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The phrase used by the Taoiseach, "all I was trying to say" will hold in this case. What the Taoiseach actually said at the time was that there was not a facility or a means by which the Government could invest in Aer Lingus. I am demonstrating quite categorically that is not the case, and that the replies the Taoiseach previously offered here during Leader's Questions do not stand up to careful scrutiny. As the major shareholder in a profitable company it is open to the State to invest in Aer Lingus without objection and it is a very reasonable business proposition for the State to consider.

The Taoiseach referred to comparisons with other airlines in Europe. He has trundled them out time and again. However, the Italian Government had no difficulty in ensuring a €400 million investment through raising an emergency loan to aid Alitalia. Who is acting differently from whom here? The Taoiseach likes to quote instances from jurisdictions to support his inaction but his inaction does not hold up either in terms of domestic or international scrutiny and there is a particular failure here.

In the past the Taoiseach stated a management buy-out is not compatible with the mandate of Aer Lingus. Will he definitively rule that out and will he further, as he failed to do on the last occasion——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——I spoke to him, guarantee the pension entitlements of current and former employees of Aer Lingus? Will he give them a categoric assurance that their pension entitlements will not——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy——

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The bell beats me but I hope the Taoiseach will be frank and straightforward in his reply.

An Ceann Comhairle

Time limits are laid down for Question Time and if the Deputy goes beyond the time allotted and asks three more questions, it is unfair to expect the Taoiseach to respond in one minute.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I assure the Ceann Comhairle I am watching the clock too. Of the three leader's questions asked that was the shortest. I was the only one the Ceann Comhairle was happy to interrupt.

The Taoiseach

It is not a question that the Government cannot put in capital, but it can only be done in a very restricted way. It is also open to objections from other countries. That is the point I made previously, it is not straightforward. Capital can only be invested in a very restrictive way. It is not a simple process.

Regarding conditions and other matters, the Minister has already met the unions and management on these issues. In regard to pensionability and other issues, discussions are ongoing between the Department and the staff and management. As discussions are ongoing, it is not for me to take a final position.