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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 2004

Vol. 590 No. 5

Water Services Bill 2003 [Seanad]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Roche, on his appointment. I hope his tenure as a senior Minister will go well for him. This is the first opportunity I have had to say this to him in the House. As somebody who came through the local authority system, I hope he will be a protector of the rights of local authorities, but I will not get personal on this issue.

This is the first Bill the Minister has dealt with and I am sorry it is a disappointing one in that, once again, we are taking away powers from elected representatives.

It will be dealt with.

I hope the first thing the Minister does is hand power back to the elected representatives.

I agree with the Deputy's sentiments.

Fianna Fáil is on that side of the House now and Fine Gael is on this side. Whichever party is on this side of the House has all the answers when it comes to local government, but as soon as it gets into Government it is controlled by the officials and every single bit of power is taken away from locally elected representatives.

Local authority members did not behave very well in recent months. When they had an opportunity to use one of their few remaining powers they did not have the guts or courage to nominate an independent candidate for the Presidency. They allowed themselves to be dictated to by the parties. As representatives of the people, county councillors let themselves down. That is my personal view.

I compliment everybody who has been involved over the years in group water schemes.

Hear, hear.

It is probably the dirtiest job anybody will ever do in the community. People set up group water schemes because the local authority does not have the resources or the will to make provision for a water supply under its auspices. In 20 years in politics I have seen these people taking abuse from those who would not pay their share or from other people when the water supply was cut off. They are wonderful people who are committed to their communities. The community spirit has almost gone from society. People are busier and generally do not want to make the effort for the community. However, there are still people in rural Ireland who are prepared to give up two or three nights a week, sometimes at weekends, to collect money to try to keep their group water scheme up and running. They also come under pressure from local authorities regarding funding for the schemes.

I am pleased more money is being provided to ensure good water quality in group water schemes. It is important that everyone has access to good, clean water and that the State has some role in monitoring the domestic water supply.

As regards the Bill, I am disappointed that responsibility is being taken from local authorities. They will set up another State agency which will be given the relevant powers. I will give the Minister an example of privatisation involving NCT testing, about which I wrote to his predecessor. A constituent of mine went to a private company with his car for the NCT test. Instead of putting down the mileage the person filling out the form put down the number of the car's chassis. This indicated that the car had done about 200,000 miles. I had to prevail on the Minister's Department and threaten the Ombudsman's office which had no authority in this area to get the company to admit it had made a mistake and to recall the car. In the meantime the person selling the car could not do so, simply because the documentation was not correct. A semi-State company made the mistake and would not concede it had done so. It was treating my constituent like dirt.

Councils have their strengths and weaknesses. However, if a constituent has a problem the county manager must answer questions in relation to it if it is raised at a council meeting. If one puts down a notice of motion or raises it at a council meeting there will be a reply. The county manager will not be going the same route as the NCT. If the Minister likes, I will send him the letter. The company eventually had to acknowledge it had made a mistake and that there was a problem. As I said in my letter to the company, it was acting as if it was the Gestapo. One would think the man had done something wrong when he had done nothing wrong. An individual in the company had made a mistake. Anyone can make a mistake, but it takes a big man or woman to admit to it and rectify it and that is all I was asking.

That is why I am worried about this. We are taking this away from the local authorities and next we will have the privatisation of water supply. Then we will have elderly people in housing estates on low incomes who are not able to pay for their water. It will be similar to what is happening in Dublin with clamping. Private companies will be cutting the water supply and saying to an old man or woman that there is no waiver, that he or she must either pay up or not get water. That is dangerous.

I can never understand why the Chambers of Commerce of Ireland have not taken a case against the State as regards one sector in society that pays rates, namely, small businesses. Small businesses pay their rates. They have then to pay water charges, VAT, tax and every other levy placed on them by the State. I have no problem with people paying, but I have when it is the same people who pay all the time.

There was a case recently where a man's car went off the road. A person passing by called the fire brigade. The car owner received a bill for €1,000 from the fire brigade. He did not need the fire brigade in the first place. Neither did he order the fire brigade, yet the local authority sent him a bill for €1,000. I will concede the fire brigade does a great job when it is needed. The person who called the fire brigade did so in good faith. However, the man who went off the road and who did not need the fire brigade had third party insurance. The insurance would not pay the bill and now there is a dispute between the individual concerned and the council. Something needs to be done as regards that and I hope the Minister will examine these simple matters during his term in office.

Returning to the group schemes, I would like to see every house with clean water coming through its taps. I am worried about the direction of this Bill and the Government's views on privatisation. I do not like it and it does not work for rural communities. It is somewhat like telecommunications. There was a time when if one ordered a telephone it would take a week. Since the private sector has taken over, one could be waiting three or six months for a telephone. In addition, they are looking out for additional cost factors and if it costs more than a certain amount, they will not do it. That is going to happen with water. If it is taken away from local authority control I worry about it. It will mean that the built-up areas again will benefit and rural regions will suffer. One way to stop it might be in terms of one-off housing. I hope this does not happen. I am a supporter of one-off houses and I want to see these people having the same kind of services. I do not expect the same level of service as people have in towns, but there should at least be the same quality of water. In some places, if a small sewerage scheme can be put in to service villages, that should be done, in the future. It would obviate much of the argument as regards one-off houses.

I would like assurances from the Minister as regards group schemes. It is now the practice for councils to do the work and to give it out to the private sector as well. In the past the councils have always done an excellent job as regards breakdowns. If this initiative is handed over where is the private sector company going to be on a Saturday or Sunday, a bank holiday or holy day, when it is wanted? At present, if there is a problem in a section of my county any day of the week, someone in the council may be contacted. If there is a break in the water supply, somebody will deal with it quickly. They have been there in the past, on Sunday or Monday, during storms or whatever. That will not happen with the private sector company because there will be no face to the person in control. The only time one will get a name is when they are collecting the bills and trying to get money from people to pay for the water supply. I hope it does not happen, but I am worried.

Regarding group schemes, a new situation has developed where the Department is taking five or six schemes together in a so-called bundle. This has not worked so far. I hope it will work. I have been waiting for schemes to start in Ballycroy, Louisburgh and in south Mayo. I hope these schemes will start soon because there is much pressure on the community and on the water supply. The Minister is coming to my town tomorrow night. I will be there to welcome him. Westport is the tidiest town in Ireland. We were unlucky not to win the competition outright. The Minister should take a good look when he is there tomorrow. We have been waiting for a long time. When Fine Gael was in Government there was a major problem with the water supply in the town and while the Department had no money, luckily it still delivered. I must compliment Deputy Howlin who was Minister at the time and the then Taoiseach, Deputy John Bruton. I had to put some pressure on them and I used some Irish language and they delivered. At that time an emergency supply was being used from Cloonkeen, near Castlebar, into Westport, which cost £2.25 million. We are waiting for the regional scheme which is to cost approximately €25 million. It is on the cards for 2005 and I want to ensure the Minister delivers on that. If he wants to announce it tomorrow night I will even give him the credit for it. It would be about the fourth time it was announced this year. It is always announced at election time. We had it again before the local elections. However, it is needed for the outlying areas, for Louisburgh, Newport etc. and to ensure there is continuation of water supply in a town such as Westport.

I know the Minister when he arrives tomorrow will say to himself that a town such as Westport should have this supply and deserves it. He will be proud of the town when he sees the beautiful flowers in the street and the work done by the community. We were one point away from the overall winner. The Minister will be coming back again next year, if there is not a change of Government.

The only fly in the ointment there is the local Deputy.

All l can say is I hope I can survive as regards what is going on at present, but I will do my best. I have survived in more difficult circumstances. One thing is definite, neither my poster nor my face would suit the Dublin 4 brigade up here. Some of the journalists would not like to see my photograph on certain pictures, but thanks be to God, although many of these people have tried to be elected, they would not even be voted on to a town council, never mind the Dáil. These are the people who tell me how I should get elected and what I should do then. We will not get into that today. That is not what this is about. It is about the quality of water.

There is a problem in this country. I know that Europe is putting pressure on the Government and the country as regards the quality of water. That is important.

It will not be too long before there is an election where the issue will be quality of life and water, not tax, unemployment or the economy. It may not be the next general election, but it could be the one after that. We see more and more of our beautiful lakes and rivers being polluted and the Government must do something about it. I know there are fines from Europe, but it is important that we have quality water. Water is the most important resource we possess and as such is a vital necessity. It must come through the pipes clean and it must be safe. This will be a serious issue in the future.

Funding should be put in place for regional and group schemes. I hope the Minister acknowledges the work done by the people in the group schemes but, more importantly, I ask him to ensure that if this power is taken out of the hands of elected representatives some mechanism is put in place whereby Members of this House, regardless of the side on which we sit, can query any decision taken. I do not like what is happening in this country. We are turning into a police state. We are taking powers away from the Oireachtas, town councils and county councils. In the past month we did not think it worthy to have a presidential election, and that is dangerous. People died for the vote. They believed they lived in a democracy, not a dictatorship.

It is important that this House is recognised and that every Bill that comes before it — I put this on the record at every opportunity — is scrutinised. Every Member should have the right to get a reply to any question tabled. That is not much to ask. The staff in the Custom House have no reason to hide information. If a Member puts down a parliamentary question on water, housing, sewerage or whatever, that information should be released. That is the Minister's job. He was elected by the people of Wicklow to represent his county and it is his job to ensure the democratic system is protected. It is not a good day for politics or democracy when the powers of this House are given to those in the private sector.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking on the Bill and use the occasion to commend and congratulate the new Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche. I do so in the full knowledge that we share a county for electoral purposes.

It is unique that this Bill is the first legislative measure the Minister is introducing in the House because the water supply for County Carlow in the main, and particularly for Carlow town, comes from the part of the county the Minister represents in the Dáil, namely, the north regional water scheme, which services all of north Carlow.

Mention was made of the part played by group water schemes in the provision of good quality water for our population. We must use the occasion to commend all those committed individuals who have worked hard in those group water schemes. I am aware they are represented by a national organisation. They are well organised and, with their contacts in the Department, their political contacts and the effective lobbying they carry out, they run a very good operation. I trust this legislation will be passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas and will become law very quickly.

I refer to one or two aspects of the Bill, the first of which concerns the replacement of existing pipes. Towns and other urban areas have had a water supply for the best part of 80 or 90 years. Much of that supply is through pipes which were laid at the turn of the last century, many of which have become corroded, resulting in a huge wastage of water in some urban areas. The Minister should seriously consider investing in the replacement and upgrading of existing pipes in larger towns. There is a cost saving to him by investing in that area. In towns like Carlow there is a huge problem with leakages from an antiquated water system.

The quality of water in general is first class, despite the problems in isolated areas. In the past few months, the county council, in a village in my area of Carlow, had to bring in water by tankers. Thankfully, that problem will be rectified over the coming weeks when a new source is identified. Work has been done on that and it is hoped the householders in the Ballinkillen area will have their new supply in the next two to three weeks.

The quality of our water has improved substantially over the past few decades. That is due mainly to the ongoing sampling and monitoring of the quality of water by local authorities in various areas. We should acknowledge also the role the Environmental Protection Agency has played in monitoring the quality of our water supply.

I have had a number of complaints, in my position as a public representative, about the difference in the quality of water throughout the county and the country. When local authorities source water it is important they do a number of tests to try to provide the best quality water for the public because there are significant differences in the quality of water being supplied to the public. Large amounts of money have been invested over the years in the supply of water and it is money well spent.

I was pleased to hear the Minister confirm recently that this Bill is not a door opening mechanism for the reintroduction of water rates. Over the past few years the European Union has put pressure on successive Governments in regard to the reintroduction of water charges, but that will not be acceptable in Ireland's case. We are unique in the European Union in that we possibly have the highest level of rainfall. We are not short of good quality water and I urge the Minister to continue to resist that pressure from the European Union.

Mention was made of the fire service. We cannot talk about water services without talking about the fire service. It is important we do not lose sight of the fact that in providing a water service for our towns and counties we must also provide an adequate supply of water for our fire service. Investment has been made in a first class fire service throughout the country. Large amounts of money have been expended on fire tenders, which are very expensive pieces of machinery. We must rank high among other countries in the quality and standard of the tenders we use in our local authorities. There is no point in having tenders costing €225,000 or €300,000 if there is not an adequate supply of water to fight fires. During the summer, in a town close to my county of Carlow, a serious problem developed when a number of tenders from Carlow and Wexford attended a fire in Bunclody but the water supply was not sufficient and almost an entire street was wiped out by the fire. I ask the Minister to continue to invest not just in the fire service but in ensuring it has an adequate supply of water.

The fact that county councils and local authorities are losing part of their remit under the Bill is not a huge problem. We can be proud of the work of local authorities in the provision of water over the past century. County councils were set up to provide improved roads, water, sewerage facilities, and housing and, to a large extent, they have completed that work well. I would not be too concerned that part of their authority has been removed in this Bill but I agree it is important that local county councillors have an input in the provision of water services in their areas. I urge the Minister to continue to invest significantly in the provision of funding for our sanitary services, both water and sewerage. I wish the Minister well in his new role.

I echo the sentiments expressed by the previous speaker. I wish the Minister well in his new role. We worked well together on the Convention on the Future of Europe, but he can expect me to be critical at times, which is my job as an Opposition spokesperson.

Many speakers mentioned the drift towards privatisation and the erosion of local authority powers in this legislation. This is nothing new for this Government. Local government has been undermined to the point that it no longer exists. Instead, there is local administration. Councillors are powerless and legislation continues to erode their base. They never were very powerful but in the past they had reserve functions such as the making of a waste management plan or water quality management plan. I was involved in the Dublin Bay plan and made amendments at city council to deliver a state of the art sewage treatment plant in Ringsend.

This plant is an interesting example of what can happen when the private sector is involved. This is a public-private partnership. The Minister's predecessor opened it with great fanfare. Since then there have been continuous problems. I appeal to the Minister to examine this and see what went wrong and what he can learn from that experience. ABA is the consortium that runs it with Dublin City Council. Deputy McGuinness complained this morning about a plant in his area with serious problems, including creating a foul smell in the area. I speak not only as a public representative for Dublin South-East but also as a resident.

The Deputy should get another house.

I am not moving out but our quality of life has deteriorated to the extent that in summer we must close our windows and cannot go out in the garden. It is no laughing matter. It is an appalling situation. Why has this state of the art plant in Ringsend not been commissioned? It is still in its commissioning phase. There are very serious problems because they miscalculated on the load. Our city and economy are expanding at a rapid rate. More tourists and industry are coming in here. The developers miscalculated the load going into Ringsend. This is evident because in a heavy downpour there is the problem of a storm overflow that shows that the plant is operating at capacity. We were told emphatically that this plant would reduce the smell. There was almost no smell from the last plant except very occasionally. Now, however the smell is very frequent particularly in the summer.

This legislation gives the Minister extensive powers, for example Part 4, section 60:

(1) Each water services authority, authorised provider of water services or person providing water services jointly with or on behalf of a water services authority or authorised provider of water services, shall cause the waste water works belonging to them, taken in charge by them or otherwise under their control, to be properly maintained so as not to—

(a) cause or be likely to cause a risk to human health or the environment including risk to waters, the atmosphere, land, soil, plants or animals, or

(b) create a nuisance through odours.

I hope the Minister will use this legislation to do something. I have a report that tells me that unfortunately waste water treatment works are not subject to licensing by the EPA. However, they must meet the standards set out in the EPA legislation. Who is guarding the guards, or in this case, the local authority? Nobody. When I ring the environmental health officer to say we cannot breathe, that the smell is catching in people's throats, the response is to use chemicals to dampen down the smell, which is further injurious to public health. To whom should we go? We cannot go to the EPA or the local authority. This is an extremely difficult situation.

I would be more than happy to go to the Minister if he will help me. I had to meet the European Commission and tell it about the problem and then had to write a letter of complaint. I was forced to make this official complaint when reassurances from the city council and the Government proved absolutely groundless. What is happening at the plant is in breach of Directive 75/442/EEC because over the years complaints have been made about smells coming from these plants that were not covered by Irish legislation. This legislation may cover the problem and if so we need action rapidly on what is happening in Ringsend.

I will do all I can to raise it in the House with the Minister because this was a joint project funded by the EU, and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. We hear about NIMBYism but I supported this wholeheartedly. I put in the amendments regarding nitrogen removal and UV treatment. This ought to have made it a state of the art plant but someone has miscalculated and nobody is held responsible, nobody is accountable, nobody has resigned. I ask the new Minister to investigate this urgently.

This Bill also covers the quality of drinking water, which is very important. The previous speaker said the quality of drinking water here is second to none. I do not agree. Drinking water quality is a serious problem. We dose it with chlorine, aluminium sulphate and fluoride. I have seen at first hand what can happen when a septic tank gets out of control. Once the ground water is polluted we have had it because there is practically no remedial action one can take. One can see that in the west. I was on Inis Meáin more than ten years ago and was shocked to discover that one could not drink the water on that island off the west coast where one should have the cleanest possible water. It was undrinkable because the islanders had polluted it. We have turned a blind eye, which is unacceptable because we all pay the price for selfish individuals who neglect planning legislation.

The Minister is drinking his water, which I hope does not contain any contaminants such as chlorine. If he were to drink the tap water he might sometimes smell the chlorine and would have to let the water stand until the chlorine evaporated. It is put in to deal with all the effluent that is going into our water at the moment. We would also be drinking aluminium sulphate, which is used as a flocculant to get rid of the matter. We have seen what happened in Britain years ago when too much aluminium sulphate was put in. Do we know how much we are putting in? It is often a case of hit or miss. With fluoride, it is a case of some guy with a bag putting it in. This is not good enough as far as our water quality is concerned.

I have a much to say on the question of water fluoridation. I will be putting down amendments on this on later Stages. In the meantime I urge the Minister to have serious consultations with his colleague, the Minister for Health and Children. If he reads the scientific journals, the fluoride forum report and in particular, the report which I am about to write for the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children, he will come to one conclusion, namely, that fluoride should not be in our drinking water. We are the only country in the world that has mass-fluoridation. It is true that in other countries, there are cities and certain areas that have had water fluoridation. The only country that has mass fluoridation is the Republic of Ireland. We have had it for over 40 years and we can see the consequences.

In his new role the Minister will become acquainted with many environmental NGOs. Friends of the Earth Ireland had its launch today.

I was there.

Excellent, I congratulate the Minister. The head of the EPA was also in attendance. There are also other environmental organisations such as VOICE. This group outlined objections to the fluoridating chemical and its contaminants. It made a submission on this issue and its key objection is that the fluoride chemical used throughout the State is both untested and unlicensed as a medication. Doubts about its safety as a chemical in drinking water were borne out by the decision of an EU standards committee in 2001, when the only two water treatment chemicals to fail its formal safety vote were hexafluorosilic acid, used throughout Ireland and disodium fluorosilicate, a related highly soluble fluoride. It is argued that Ireland breaches the EU drinking water directive by deliberately adding an unsafe chemical that has also been described by the EU scientific committee on toxicity, eco-toxicity and the environment, as a pollutant.

Other subsequent official evidence pointing to the wide range of variation in source waters across what were then known as sanitary authorities, now called water services authorities under this legislation, reveal that the risks of adding untested hexafluoricic acid could be very serious. These concerns also featured in a 2003 letter from the NPWA to the UK's medical research council. It is a very serious issue. The Minister for Health and Children set up the fluoride forum. I have said that it was a complete whitewash. Most of the people on it were pro-fluoridation and we never stood a chance of getting what I consider to be an objective analysis of the problem.

Research into fluoridation has been ongoing for over 50 years. The large body of research must be taken into account by any serious review of that policy. Coincidentally, a comprehensive policy review was undertaken by the British NHS centre for review and dissemination at York in December 1999. Much of their evidence was unfortunately not used by our own fluoride forum, which was set up in 2002. It represents the first official investigation into fluoridation since it was made mandatory throughout the State in 1963. The forum faced a huge task. The failure of successive Governments to comply, however minimally, with the important section of the Fluoridation Act 1960 requiring general health studies, reinforced the need for a thorough review of the population effects. Section 6 of the Act confers on the Minister for Health and Children "a duty to carry out from time to time general health studies." These were clearly intended to establish if there were, as many feared, any unintended side effects from fluoridation.

This matter was debated in the House in 1959, the year I was born. It and subsequent debates reveal a depth of concern among Deputies and Senators that there could be unintended effects entirely unconnected with teeth. These misgivings, which European and international experience has subsequently shown to be well founded, led to this section 6 of the Act. It wisely imposed a statutory duty on the Minister for Health and Children to investigate general health effects. Why is it that since 1963, not one single health study has been carried out under section 6? Does the Minister not find that surprising? If a urine or blood sample was taken from anyone in this House or beyond it would be found that nobody would be fluoride deficient. In fact, we have an excess of fluoride, a toxic substance, in our bodies. That is the problem and it is why I will put down an amendment to address it.

Whereas the forum failed to meet its original deadline to report in 2001, when it finally emerged it did not even meet its primary objective, which was to reassure the public as to the risks of fluoridation. Even though it made eight primary and 25 subsidiary recommendations, neither individually nor collectively do they address the ongoing concerns about the safety and risks of this policy. For example, it acknowledged the now officially confirmed huge increase in fluoride poisoning among teenagers. The oral research centre in UCC has since shown it to have increased nine times since 1984, to affect 36% of 15 year olds. Some 36% of teenagers have fluorosis, a manifestation of fluoride toxicity. It is a huge problem in this country. What we have are different sources of fluoride, not just in our drinking water, but also in toothpaste. In the US, one is told that if one's child swallows more than a pea-sized amount of fluoridated toothpaste, then that child must be brought to the hospital. That says something.

The fluoride forum got its figures mixed up and there are many fundamental contradictions. The forum's first recommendation is to reduce the concentration to between 0.6mg/litre and 0.8mg/litre with a target figure of 0.7mg/litre. The then Minister for Health and Children, in a recent Dáil debate, told us that by adding fluoride to drinking water which is consumed in widely varying amounts by the public, the individual dose is unknown and indeed unknowable. It is surely relevant that when contemplating fluoridation in France in the early 1990s, the main reason for French public health-officials to reject it, as they did out of hand, was because the dosage could not be controlled.

We asked a dentist, Dr. Don MacCauley, to come before the Joint Committee on Health and Children. He discovered, through a freedom of information request, that the Food Safety Authority of Ireland had made a risk assessment into bottle feeding infants with fluoridated water. Its recommendation to the fluoride forum was that fluoridated water should not be used to bottle feed babies. That decision was overturned by the fluoridation forum in mysterious circumstances. We would not have known about it had we not submitted a freedom of information request. The evidence presented by the foremost expert in this area, Dr. Hardy Limeback, who is from Canada, was accepted by the Food Safety Authority. We were informed that fluoridated water should not be used to bottle-feed babies, but the fluoridation forum overturned that decision. The Minister knows that if the evidence had been included in the final report, that would have been the end of water fluoridation in Ireland. We continue to be faced with the consequences of the political decision to overturn the recommendation.

All Members of the House, including the Minister and I, are charged with examining this health problem. The Bill gives the Minister an opportunity, in consultation with the Minister for Health and Children, to undo this country's policy of water fluoridation. I am concerned that the policy has led to increased fluorosis, which has led to ill-health. Fluoridation must be stopped if we are to act as responsible politicians.

As this is my first time to speak in the Chamber since the appointment of the new Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, I wish him well in his large and important portfolio. As another speaker said previously, the Minister has a grassroots knowledge of this area as a former member of a local authority who came up through the ranks the hard way. It is important that the Minister who is responsible for local government should have come through the local government system. I sincerely wish him the best of luck.

I said to myself as I listened to Deputy Gormley's warnings about the dangers of water that I was probably fortunate that the glass in front of me was empty.

The Deputy should drink gin.

It is important that the drinking water available to us should be of the highest quality. As Deputy Gormley was speaking, I wondered where the water we drink comes from. There are many question marks about the source of our water supply. We are warned, particularly by those in the medical profession, to drink plenty of water at all times. If one is on a diet, suffering from an illness, in hospital or in the best of health, one is always warned to drink plenty of water. We are even told how much water we should drink during the day. The Bill is important for that reason.

All Deputies are accustomed to examining the weather each day. When I was researching this issue, I said to an American intern who works for me that water shortages are sometimes experienced in County Tipperary. She could not understand why such shortages take place, given that Ireland is famous for its rainy climate. This Bill is important for all involved, including the Government and local authorities, because it relates to the management of the water system.

We should salute those involved in this country's many group water schemes, which were referred to previously. Most of the schemes were established in the 1940s and 1950s by committees which met late at night and collected money in an era when people were not well-off. Many such initiatives in my local area were organised by groups like Muintir na Tíre. It is important to salute those who successfully established such schemes, especially in the western counties. Some of the water schemes in County Tipperary which were later taken over by the local authorities are now regarded as being among the better ones.

It seems to me, as a layman in this area, that many wells and sources of high quality clean water are available in rural Ireland. The Minister should examine the possibility of tapping the resources which are available. I refer to the many wells of clean water which people cannot use for various reasons. The grant payment system for drilling wells, which is unfairly limited to those who do not have another source of water, should be widened to include farmers who use large volumes of water. The Minister should examine the possibility of extending the payment to all those who use large volumes of water. Those who run dairy farms and other intensive farms, for example, need a substantial amount of water. I do not understand why people involved in the tourism industry, including those who run bed and breakfast businesses and large hotels, should not be encouraged to source their own water supply. Many such sources are available. Will the Minister consider incentivising such activity to reduce the level of pressure on water sources, such as reservoirs, which are used by local authorities to provide a proper water supply?

Many speakers referred to the possible privatisation of the water network. I have many concerns about such a policy. A Deputy referred to the privatisation of Telecom Éireann. Some people who called to my constituency clinic last Monday informed me they rely on mobile telephones because they have been waiting six to eight weeks for a new telephone line to be installed in their area. I thought the era when people had to contact a local politician to have telephone lines installed in their area was gone. That does not reflect well on the telephone service provided by Eircom.

We need to invest properly in the water network which is a fantastic asset comprising thousands of miles of piping. I am aware that there have been many breakdowns in the service, especially in the past two summers. It is obvious that there is a great deal of pressure on the main water lines. We need to examine the possibility of replacing many lines which cost us a great deal of money because of their faulty condition. We have made great progress in renewing other aspects of infrastructure, such as the road network. The main highways will be completed over the next three to four years. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government needs to examine the state of the water piping network which was laid in another era to serve a different level of need and a different generation. The network is crying out for investment over the coming years.

Many Deputies have spoken about the merits of metering the water supply. I see a significant need to curb water wastage. I said that a substantial amount of water is being lost because of the bad piping system which needs to be replaced. There is a great deal of merit in the proposal to install meters in individual homes and farms. I would welcome a decision by the Government to pursue such a policy.

In north Tipperary, for instance, 95% of non-domestic consumers are on a meter system, and that is very encouraging. All water supplies should be metered because people do not understand the value of water, and the wastage that takes place on a domestic or other level, be it a farm or other development, must be curtailed. Metering is a good solution to wastage. People should be encouraged not to waste water. When I was canvassing on a fine summer's evening earlier in the year, I was amazed to see water sprinklers being used a mile from where people complained about frequent shortages of water.

For the begonias.

That is the wrong way to utilise a scarce resource. Deputy Gormley referred to the problems with water. I have no doubt that much of the water we drink is top class. While a great deal has been done, more must be done to improve quality. However, whether through public consultation or in some other way, we must enlighten people and point out to them the value of water. This message must be hammered home because people do not understand the value of something that is so easily attainable and readily available, nor do they understand how good and important this is. We must examine ways to educate the public on this.

Water quality is everyone's prominent concern. It has a direct impact on public health, the environment and tourism, especially fishing. Inland waterways are a great source of tourism revenue in some counties. The River Suir, which flows through Tipperary, was once a great source of trout for angling and attracted a large number of visitors. The number of fish in that river has declined considerably in recent years. Has that been because of the quality of the water? Has industrial pollution over the years killed some of the fish stocks in the river? That must be addressed.

I welcome this Bill and the opportunity to say a few words on it. I welcome that there is so much interest in it and that so many have spoken on it and expressed a broad range of views. We must make the public more aware of the importance of water and the increasing scarcity of this wholesome resource. I certainly wish to impress on the Minister the need to examine alternative sources which are readily available. He should grant-assist heavy users to find their own source. In other words, they should not put even more pressure on resources.

The explanatory memorandum to the Bill admits that the legislation on the provision of drinking water and treatment of waste water extends back to Victorian times. From that one must infer that the infrastructure that still exists in many part of the country to supply water and collect waste water remains essentially Victorian in the condition of the pipes, their diameter, and the loadings that have been put on them by poor planning, especially in larger urban areas. It is the Government's responsibility to state how, not only in legislative terms, this can be met by a framework of agencies.

Resources must be provided to update the infrastructure in both the provision of drinking water and the collection of waste water. There has been investment, and some of it has come through European funding, something of which the Minister will have been aware in his previous incarnation. However, that option is no longer open to us for infrastructural development. The remaining large works that must be carried out will have to be funded almost entirely by the Exchequer unless the Government, as it seems to be implying in general terms through this legislation, can magic the provision of resources through its reliance on public private partnerships.

If the Government intends to take that route in meeting this shortfall, I fear that future legislation will be needed to pick up the pieces. We can see that from the examples of other countries that have engaged private enterprise to provide water and collect waste water, which must be the most public of services and resources. That experiment has gone badly wrong. We need look no further than our nearest neighbour, the United Kingdom, and the utter catastrophe of dividing its water system into several regional privatised companies. That has done nothing for the quality of the water or its provision to the end user. In environmental terms, it has certainly brought about a greater reliance on state intervention.

Regarding the poor infrastructure that remains in larger urban areas, other speakers referred to the leakage difficulties which have been measured in towns such as Dublin and Cork as between 25% and 40% of the water supply. Some of it has to do with the corrosive joints and the pipes themselves. However, there is still the problem in too many parts of the network in many metropolitan areas that pipes are made of lead. Progress in replacing lead pipes in metropolitan areas has been much too slow. By not doing so, we are also aiding the contamination of the water supply which we must then ameliorate through other sources, often through the excessive use of chlorine in drinking water supplies.

I know that my colleague has spoken at length about the other additions made in treatment centres before water reaches households, such as the near exclusive and only State use of fluoride in our drinking water supply. The new Minister should address that as a priority. However, he has yet to say whether he believes it a problem and whether the Government is committed — it has not been to date — to overcoming the inconsistency and contradiction that it claims to represent public health while adding to our water supply something that, in the quantities in which it is now introduced, can damage public health.

The Green Party will be consistent in challenging the Government to ensure that the issue is brought to the forefront and that an amendment to the Health Act, in which it was introduced, is made. It might even be possible, through a comprehensive Water Services Bill, to submit such an amendment here. We intend giving active consideration to that on Committee Stage and hope that the Minister might be able to respond to it.

Another difficulty regarding the piping infrastructure and its use in other areas is fire safety. As a member of a local authority in Cork, I have seen several instances where, as a result of such poor infrastructure, we have learnt too late the water pressure necessary at key and critical times. The most obvious example was the major chemical accident at what was then the Hickson pharmaceutical plant in Ringaskiddy in 1993 where efforts to extinguish the fire ceased because the water supply was inadequate. The diameter of the pipes was not wide enough while the strength of the water flow was insufficient. Luckily, that situation was resolved and the necessary expenditure was later made to ensure such an event could not take place again at that location. I later learned of other industrial sites where the supply of water was weak and needed to be strengthened; no doubt there are others. The Government, acting in concert with local authorities, lacks a plan to make water readily available to ensure fire safety, particularly with regard to industrial sites covered by the Seveso directive. I speak as a Deputy for a constituency which has the heaviest concentration of Seveso installations in the country. The Bill does not deal with this matter in any proper length and detail.

I share the concern of other speakers that the role of local authorities and their members is being further undermined by the proposals in the Bill. The Minister, having up to recently been a member of a local authority, might comment on this matter when considering the Bill on Committee and Report Stages. It is ironic that one of the few executive powers of elected members of a local authority is the power to put in place a water quality management plan that applies to estuaries and bays in the functional area of a local authority trying to control effluents entering from industrial, agricultural or domestic sources. Sadly, this power has been exercised very slowly and in limited circumstances. Other than Dublin City Council, I know of no local authority which has put a water quality management plan in place on the say-so of the elected members. No doubt some of my colleagues may tell of how such efforts have been frustrated at departmental and official level. However, Dublin City Council has not followed through on the spirit of its plan.

The fact that there is such a power and that it is not widely used contrasts greatly with the imposition of the water services authority and the need, as a result of this legislation, to bring forward a water services strategic plan. Making this a function of the unelected members of local authorities who the Minister knows will be the managers undermines local government further. Sadly, this is of a piece with all the legislation introduced by all the Minister's predecessors in recent years. All the legislation related to local government decision-making has undermined the role of local council members, particularly in the case of waste management plans. If we believe services are best delivered at local level by those elected to represent their local communities because they know how services are impacting on their lives, we should not introduce legislation of this type. I hope the Minister is sympathetic to these views. We will wait to see if he is prepared to put in place measures to indicate that he is.

The wastewater issue has been touched on by many speakers. Many of the problems which affect the infrastructure of drinking water also apply to wastewater. I have seen the avoidance of responsibility by local authorities for the collapse of individual wastewater networks and even wider networks. Some of the problems have arisen because the original piping was designed to cope with populations now far exceeded. It is unfair that when the piping and the infrastructure break down, householders are expected to repair them. We need a legislative framework which accepts that the State or the local authority responsible for providing the infrastructure should ensure it does work, that the load is not exceeded, and that if it is, the responsibility lies with the local authority concerned.

We are now moving towards implementation of the European directive on wastewater treatment. This Bill lacks the sense of urgency needed in this area. While Dublin has its single major plant which is probably not sufficient for its needs and is causing obvious problems, many areas of the country are nowhere close to meeting the EU directive deadline. In practice, the Government expects the infrastructure to be provided through some kind of public private partnership. That is unfortunate and will create problems.

The wastewater treatment facility in Cork will come on stream soon and there is a contract for an outside body to run it. We will see how the experience pans out. Even with this multi-million euro investment which resulted in the city being torn up for the past few years, at the end of the process we only have, for a population of 150,000 to 175,000, a secondary treatment wastewater plant. Far too often these inconsistencies on the part of local authorities are tolerated by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. When exercising the highest possible environmental standards, we should not only live up to the standards laid down for us in the EU directives but should bear in mind that these standards are likely to change in the future. We should have in place standards which will apply in 20, 30 or 50 years' time in order that infrastructural investment in the future will not be necessary.

The other difficulty regarding wastewater treatment relates to the sludge and waste created. Once again the Government has not asked the necessary questions about what will happen to this waste. The Cork plant which will probably be the model used by other local authorities will treat domestic and industrial wastewater together. Therefore, there will be a degree of toxicity in the waste produced. This will need a special dumping location while the nature of the waste will preclude it from the usage suggested by those promoting such plants in the past. Among those suggestions were laying the waste in sludge or pellet form on park land or golf courses. That is totally off the agenda. We will have hundreds and thousands of tonnes of sludge and pellets which must be disposed of.

The Green Party has suggested alternative wastewater treatments on a smaller localised level. Those treatments might apply more readily to rural than urban communities, but there has been a very slow take-up by the Department and the local authorities of innovative treatments such as reedbed treatment on a small scale. They would deal with the treatment of wastewater and the production of any waste resulting from it.

Rural water schemes have generated much comment. I reiterate what other speakers have said — we should be grateful for the provision of infrastructure in rural communities through voluntary effort. This is the opposite of the method being used by the Government to provide infrastructure for the future. Instead of making use of public private partnerships where the incentive is to appeal to those in the private sector who think they can make the most money out of the public need for infrastructure, we should reinvent the original public public partnership. Under the latter, the State provide resources and local communities then identified needs and worked towards meeting them. There have been obvious difficulties with PPPs and these are partly related to the way in which the Government has provided resources and the fact that it has not provided sufficient resources. This is particularly true in the case of rural schemes and has given rise to problems as regards excessive amounts of contaminants such as fecal coliforms — levels of which have risen as high as 25% — in water supplies.

The approach we should take is not to establish a standalone body which could, in itself, be the prototype of another privatised agency. We should use the voluntary network and provide it with adequate resources to help it become as professional as possible in this era of higher environmental standards. We are concerned that the standalone body could develop into anything and that is why I am raising this point. It is at such a remove from the original principle and the existing philosophy of group water schemes that it must be challenged.

Even during the short period he has been in office, the Minister is beginning to obtain an indication of the sense of anger towards this legislation from those who administer group water schemes. These people believe the Bill to be an attack on what they are doing.

I have not gained any——

The Minister may not be talking to the same people with whom we have had discussions. We have certainly gained the impression that they are angry. The Minister will be obliged to respond to concerns in this area and I suspect that there will be a number of amendments to the relevant section of the Bill.

If the Deputy communicates to me the information he possesses, I will deal with the matter. We have been very careful to talk to people involved in group water schemes.

It seems that we are operating a whistleblower's charter in the House.

Those involved in group water schemes told me one thing. If the Deputy knows something different, he should communicate it to me.

I will talk to the Minister about that matter. My conversations have been with my party colleague who has been in contact with people in the Minister's Department. We can discuss the matter in other arenas.

My final point relates to the fact that the European Union water framework has not been implemented. The Bill does not implement it to the extent that it should be implemented. When one considers the selective and unaccomplished way we are implementing directives on waste water treatment in respect of which we have already provided a commitment to put in place, it does not inspire confidence. In light of his previous role as Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs, the Minister should pay particular attention to ensuring that we comply as quickly and as well as possible to the standards being sought of us. It will be at that point, perhaps, that it will become apparent that the legislation had a use.

I congratulate the Minister and wish him the best of luck in his new post. I believe and hope that he will do a good job. He possesses the necessary experience and understands the workings of councils. Given that he comes from County Wicklow, he will understand many of the problems being experienced in Navan and County Meath in general. Such problems are familiar to everyone who lives in the greater Dublin region.

I have firsthand experience of them.

This debate mainly relates to the Water Services Bill and Deputy Hayes referred to the wastage of water, etc. I was provided with some scary facts yesterday in respect of water which shocked me. One of these is that it takes approximately 1,000 tonnes of water to produce one tonne of grain. The figures to which I refer were provided by a professor at the Earth Policy Institute. I accept that there are those who will argue that he is wrong and question from what source he obtained his figures. However, he seems to be able to stand over them. They illustrate how much water is needed for different things. He stated that we are going to have a water crisis and shortages in the future. That is not news to some but I was particularly struck by the evidence he provided as regards how quickly it could happen. What he said alerted me to how to stop the wastage of water and discover ways to use our water better. As a nation, we have a great deal to do in terms of valuing water and making better use of it.

The professor in question also stated that we drink approximately four litres of water each day, which seems correct, and that it takes almost 2,000 litres of water to produce the food we eat each day. That is shocking. I will check the figures and use them when I can, particularly in giving talks in schools, etc. Perhaps we could investigate whether there is a way to force people, through the provision of pure facts, to make better use of their water. The professor stated that in the long term decreases in the level of water tables will lead to higher food prices. When this happens, people will begin to wake up to the need to conserve water. I am not advocating the introduction of water charges but perhaps we could make people aware that water is a major ingredient in food production and that if there is less water it will be more costly to produce food. That is one approach we could take. I am sure there are many others which could be taken but there is no doubt that we have a great deal to do. The Government and the local authorities need to provide a lead in this area.

Local authorities are guilty of letting water flow out of the pipes at enormous rates. The level of leakage is unbelievable. We must take action in this regard. There were approximately 166 leakages and breakages in the pipe system in Navan during the past year. I welcome the fact that the Department has provided funding to solve the problem. However, it has been stated that it will take 12 to 18 months to replace all the pipes. Having listened to previous speakers, I understand that many towns, etc., have problems with crumbling pipes. We need to tackle this matter. It is not acceptable that people in Navan, a town with over 160 leakages, are being told that it will take 12 to 18 months to resolve the problem. I have been informed that tendering and other procedures must be undergone. Surely something else can be done in emergency situations.

Will the Minister use Navan as an example and see if savings can be made by having the work done more quickly? Perhaps it could be done in six months, with those involved working weekends and at night. There are two teams of workers in Navan who spend their days repairing various breakages. At the same time, another team is charged with putting in place new pipes. It must be costing a fortune to have these three teams working on repairing and laying pipes. The new pipes will not be used until the entire system has been put in place. There could be a new pipe running parallel to a crumbling pipe but it cannot be used. This seems to be a strange way to go about dealing with the matter. Will the Minister consider the case of Navan to see if something can be done to save money? I accept that there are difficulties in other towns but — I may be biased — these do not seem as bad as those experienced in Navan.

The Department has provided funding in respect of Navan but there must be some way that those in local government can get things done more quickly and not be obliged to wade through red tape, etc. People cannot figure out why the process takes so long. As a Deputy, I am supposed to explain why but I cannot come up with a reason. The Minister should try to reform the system and bring about changes.

The purpose of the Bill is to clarify the position and indicate who is in charge, namely, the Minister and the water services authorities, which are the local authorities as matters stand. It contains nothing new in that regard. The main aim must be to get systems working again. The Bill refers to the setting down of standards and states that the Minister can issue a compliance notice to water services authorities which do not reach such standards. If the necessary pipes, etc., are not in place, how can the authorities reach any standards? On each occasion a pipe cracks or breaks, there is a danger that water could become polluted and that infectious diseases could spread. We have had some cases of e.coli in Navan. It is hard to trace, however, because it is here today and gone tomorrow. We cannot expect the Bill to solve everything immediately without providing funding or co-operating with the relevant authorities to get things done more quickly. The purpose of the Bill is to address the management of the system, including pipes and the treatment system, and to modernise the existing legislative code.

Speaking in the Seanad, the Minister's predecessor stated the legislation was one of a number of Bills and reforms in this area. I joined Meath County Council in 1999 at the time of Better Local Government and other local government reforms. Local government is worse now than in 1999. I discussed this issue with colleagues from County Meath and other counties who have been councillors for ten, 20, 30 and 40 years to find out their opinions on the matter. None of them believes we have better local government.

We are discussing further reform and legislation when we already have too much red tape and procedures. Nobody at local authority level wants to take responsibility. The buck is passed as officials deny that certain issues are the responsibility of their Department and pass them on to other Departments. In the past, a local authority had one county manager and an assistant who answered for everything and did the job. Nowadays, county councils have seven or eight assistant managers spread all over the place and whom one cannot contact.

The issue of red tape, procedures and so forth needs to be addressed and the Minister can make legislative changes which will not cost him money. The other part of the jigsaw, however, is the failure to properly fund local government. While I accept that all Departments require funding, local government operates on the ground to get things done by providing water and sewerage schemes and other services. There is no point introducing new legislation without a commitment to provide matching funding.

Legislation in other areas could alleviate some of the problems with water quality. I have a problem with the way in which developers are leaving many estates in terms of poor drainage and many other problems. We have had bad development with many things not done properly. Despite this, local authorities do not appear to able to chase developers. They are reluctant to do so because they must take them to court, which costs money they are afraid to spend.

I thought the Planning Act 2000 would solve the problem of unfinished estates and the failure to provide proper water and sewerage systems. The Act provided that local authorities could consider the record of builders when dealing with an application from them for a further development. However, to refuse a second application by a developer on the grounds of previous history, the developer in question must first be brought to the High Court. This defeats the purpose and is another indication that local government reform and planning legislation are ineffective. This provision must be corrected.

Why do many of our towns have problems with water quality, cracked pipes and so on? Such problems have arisen in many areas, particularly counties Wicklow, Wexford, Kildare and Meath in the greater Dublin region. They are a result of excessive pressure on and over-development of land. In many cases, councillors are to blame for rezoning land without proper strategies. Fortunately, the approach to zoning land and the logic behind development plans appears to have changed. The latter appear to be better thought out, with experts invited to give their views. It is no longer a case of zoning someone's land because it is a nice green field. Instead, questions are asked as to whether the zoning would be beneficial and complies with the development plan. This is proper planning and I hope it results in the elimination of current planning problems. The massive development of property in recent years was not accompanied by the necessary funding. Counties in the greater Dublin region such as Meath — again I am biased in this respect — should have received additional funding for facilitating massive housing development.

We, in Navan, have been aware for years of the problems which gave rise to recent cases of broken water pipes. The problem did not crop up in the past year or two, yet it was not addressed and developers were allowed to continue building houses without proper underground infrastructure to take the pressure. As a result, we have had 164 breakages to date this year, with homes flooded, appliances wrecked and householders' lives made a misery.

The Minister's predecessor stated the issue at stake was the water in the pipes. It is laughable to discuss water quality without discussing pipes or lack thereof. I apologise for speaking at length about matters that have arisen in Navan but I must raise them in the context of this legislation. We have disgraceful infrastructure in a modern town. I ask the Minister to examine the issue to find out if he is satisfied in terms of value for money.

It has been suggested that consultancy groups and committees will be established to monitor the situation on the ground. This is a fine idea and I am sure people will be delighted to help the Minister to monitor the local authorities. If people get involved in such committees, however, the authorities will have to listen to them. If, for instance, someone makes a telephone call, it will have to be answered. Monitoring committees must have a use but many people, not only in County Meath, who telephone public bodies do not get a reply.

They are referred to an answering machine or voice mail.

One is asked to press the digits "1", "2" and so on for various options. One should just press "3" for the Department of Foreign Affairs to find out where is everybody. The failure to get answers makes people frustrated and annoyed. The matter must be addressed.

Section 37 empowers the Minister to issue compliance notices specifying corrective action to be taken by a water services authority. Although this power was probably available already, the section clarifies it. Will the Minister, in taking such action, demand results and value for money? Value for money will mean we will have much more money at local level. I am not arguing that the solution to local government funding is for the Government to provide all of it. Various options must be considered, including making savings, raising revenue locally for certain issues if necessary and greater Government funding. Local authorities are under financial pressure and while some of the solutions lie in the local authorities themselves, many lie with the Government. It will be difficult for the Minister to use his power to intervene and slap wrists if a water authority does not meet standards when the necessary infrastructure is not yet in place. This provision will probably be fine once a proper system is in the ground.

Sections 30 and 31 set out the functions of the water services authority, for example, in terms of provision, supervision and other matters. From what I can gather, many of these guidelines are driven by the European Union. Water is a priceless commodity. In light of what I heard in Strasbourg yesterday, is the legislation intended to prepare us for the privatisation of water? The Minister has denied this is the case but the legislation makes such a process easier by creating the necessary structures.

Privatisation may be forced on us by Europe, not necessarily during the term of this Government or the next which will, I hope, be led by the Fine Gael Party. The Minister is well informed about Europe and well respected in Europe. If privatisation is inevitable, we should tell the people now. There is no point in hoping the issue will become somebody else's problem in a few years. If privatisation or the reintroduction of water charges is planned in the long-run, it should be stated now. The Minister is indicating that this is not the case but I will remind him of his denial in a couple of years if privatisation takes place. It would be unfair not to tell people.

The proper implementation of the Bill will cost local authorities money. Other Bills created costs for local authorities which did not receive funding to implement them. Development charges are a case in point. The contribution schemes are a rip-off and are used as another form of taxation in many authorities. Councils were blackmailed into introducing contribution schemes. If they did not introduce them, they would not be guaranteed funding.

I have no problem with contribution schemes in general if they add to what is in place. However, the list of infrastructure which will be provided from these schemes and development charges refers to bridges, roads, roundabouts and so forth, things that were always in place. These are supposed to be paid for from our income tax, road tax and other taxes. I am a little concerned about what is coming down the line. This provision was sneaked into a Bill and not implemented for a few years but is now in effect. People are paying up to €15,000 if they wish to build a house in the country and link into the water and sewerage systems.

I do not mind people having to pay a small contribution towards parks and the like but they are being told that before they can start building after getting planning permission, they must pay between €10,000 and €15,000. That is the average charge in County Meath. The charge used to be €5,000 or €6,000 and nobody argued with it. It seemed fair and people accepted it. However, suddenly to have to pay €15,000 for something that was always paid for from Government coffers seems wrong and unfair. It is not good enough. It all comes back to water and sewerage services.

Planning permission is another problem. There is much talk about getting people to live in towns. We are trying to do what was done in countries such as Germany, Belgium and so forth where houses are built in clusters. However, it is probably too late to do that here. Houses are dotted all over the place and one cannot just move and put them in one place or force all the children to go into a little circle in the middle, unless people can afford to do it or it is made attractive for them to do so. Until that is done, they must be allowed to build on their land and should not be charged a fortune to do it. If we do not want houses built in every field, we must fund an alternative. Telling people they cannot build on their site but that they will be let build on Mr. Smith's land down the road after being charged more than €80,000 for the site will not work. Why would they do it? What sane person would spend €80,000 when they did not have to?

Section 35 deals with strategic and operational planning. All councils will be obliged to make six year plans. I have no problem with long-term planning as long as it comes with multi-annual funding. However, will this mean more red tape? Will there be flexibility in these six year plans? I dealt with a case involving the five year road plan which is effective but some genius managed to get the number of a road wrong in year three. This was not discovered until year three when they were told they could not change the number of the road. That makes no sense. I hope there will be flexibility and common sense in these six year plans.

Sections 55 and 61 enable the authority to force a developer to allow water pipes to be opened and checked prior to connection to the system. I truly hope this is enforced. Builders should not be let build houses without doing this. I am told, although the Minister might be better informed on this, that in other countries, including Northern Ireland, developments are checked at each stage of progression. I cannot figure out why that cannot be done here. It will cost money which must be found because people are buying homes that are dodgy and will not last.

I hope the licensing for group schemes will not mean more red tape and delays. I also hope there will not be massive charges involved. There is no hint in the legislation of what the price of the licence will be. Is that how the changes in the Water Services Bill will be funded? I hope not. There are hundreds of smaller schemes below the threshold of 50 which will not be licensed. We will have to find some way of controlling or monitoring them.

As I have said on local radio, I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. It is a great honour for him and his family. I hope he will not be the Minister in the next Government and that we will be on the other side of the House. However, as a fellow Wexford man, I wish him the best of luck. He will be well able for local government. I have heard his views on the subject on many occasions and admire him for being so outspoken.

This Bill is of the utmost importance for our future and that of future generations. I hope it will benefit all of us. Deputy English referred to the importance of water. Everybody needs water every day; we cannot function without it. It is a necessity, regardless of one's walk of life. It is a resource that should be nurtured but is often abused. One cannot over-emphasise its importance.

Having read the Bill and the Minister's Second Stage presentation, I hope we will have cleaner water which would benefit everybody and offer a better quality of life. The Bill is the result of an EU directive. People are often frightened of EU directives, as our new party spokesperson on the environment and local government, Deputy O'Dowd, mentioned this morning. However, they should not be frightened if they look beyond the directive, particularly in the case of this Bill which is an example of something positive that has come from the European Union. There have been many other positive developments.

People often complain about the European Union and EU directives. The one that readily springs to mind is the nitrates directive which will have a huge effect on farmers. It frightens me also. I hope the Minister will do his best when dealing with it. As other huge changes have arisen from EU directives, people tend to be frightened of them. However, although this Bill has its origins in an EU directive, I welcome it as it will benefit us in the future.

It was only when I read the magazine produced by the National Federation of Group Water Schemes that I became aware of the different diseases that could be carried through the water supply into houses. It is amazing. E.coli is one of the many diseases carried through water. It is frightening. This emphasises the importance of the quality of water.

Deputy English spoke about pipe laying and replacing old pipes. In towns such as Wexford, Enniscorthy and Gorey I have seen the council laying new water pipes and then, three or four years later returning to lay them again. It amazes me. This must be investigated by the local authorities. One year they might be working on a sewerage scheme, then they return to work on the water pipes and then, three or four years later, they are back to do it again or to work on one or other connection. Surely something could be done to alleviate all this digging and replacement of pipes. This is 2004. As there have been many developments in computers and the like, we should be able to deal with something as simple as water pipes, their quality and replacement.

There are water treatment plants, pumping stations and reservoirs across the country and much work has been completed in this area. It was not until I entered politics that I discovered the amount of work and the significant cost involved in the process of supplying water from the well to the household. I was not aware of this as I had never served on Wexford County Council. The former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, opened a water treatment plant in County Wexford and I hope the current Minister will open further sewage and water treatment plants, which are vitally needed. Officials of Wexford County Council told me the cost of carrying out this work to the highest EU standards would run to millions of euro, which amazed me. I come from a farming background and thought no more was involved than sinking a well, installing a pump and turning on a tap. However, that is in rural Ireland, not in urban areas with thousands of houses in any one town.

Water supplies can be used or misused and I am delighted the Bill deals with water conservation, on which Deputy English made an important contribution. After I had served one year in politics, I was contacted by a man from south County Wexford to tell me a pipe of his had been leaking for almost a week. He told me he had telephoned the council on numerous occasions but they never visited him, perhaps because of council staff passing the buck or not finding someone to deal with the problem. If someone reports a problem to a local authority, it must be acted on immediately. The Minister should ensure that water supplies are looked after and that local authorities carry out their duties in a professional manner. In his earlier contribution on the Bill, the Minister stated:

Some €276 million is being invested in the current round of national programmes to identify and substantially reduce the levels of unaccounted-for waters in Ireland's water supply network. The investment must be supported by effective enforcement powers to prevent its being undermined by user-side leakage and waste.

It is important this is carried out.

On visiting Egypt two years ago, a government official there told me that in years to come the waters of the River Nile will be one of the most important commodities. He pointed out that while it was not clean water, it was the water that people drank from their wells. Irish people could not at one time have imagined buying bottled water from a shop. If I could go back two or three generations to tell people that water was being sold for up to €4 per bottle and that perhaps 50 or 60 companies supply bottled water, I would be laughed at. It would amaze those who came before us to see people carrying three litre bottles of water from supermarkets.

Housing developers make a lot of money but do they care about the quality of water being supplied to their developments? I worked in construction before I entered the Dáil. Some developers would be aware of the issue and would have the quality of water supply as one of their top priorities when they hand over the keys to new house buyers. However, other developers could not care less about water quality as long as they get €200,000 or €300,000 for a house. Whether there is a problem such as a burst pipe or otherwise, their only concern is to make a quick buck. I feel strongly on this issue. When housing estates are completed, do the local authorities carry out water tests? The Minister should consider this.

Private group water schemes are important. My parish of Bree is served by the Beaumont private group water scheme. The group is voluntary, organised by perhaps five people in the area who look after the development and upkeep of the water supply. While canvassing during the last election campaign, I visited the White Mountain area near Rathnure on a cold, windy and wet night. As a strong Fine Gael family lives in a very isolated part of the mountain, I knew I had to call there.

I will know to avoid canvassing there.

I passed a pump house with a light on inside and a car parked outside. It transpired the pump house was part of a group water scheme and a man was checking it at perhaps 9.30 p.m. on a dark, wintry night. He could have been attending to his own business but he was interested in the group water scheme that was supplying his and other villages in the area. The commitment of members of group water schemes is like the commitment of GAA club members and must be commended.

This brings me to another point. County managers are to be given sole responsibility for certain areas dealt with by the Bill. In the same way that local volunteers look after private group water schemes, it is only right that county councillors, elected by the people, are given some form of responsibility for the implementation of the Bill. I feel strongly on this. While I was not a member of Wexford County Council, I know there was an intention to provide better local government. I am not sure whether my own party was responsible for implementing better local government from 1994 to 1997. However, elected representatives, including those on town councils and corporations, should be given some form of recognition for the work they do. They are elected by the people. The county manager is not elected. He or she is appointed to the council to carry out a job. We have a newly appointed county manager in County Wexford who is doing an excellent job.

In Enniscorthy.

He has been there for the past year and a half. I do not want to demean him or any other county manager. However, it is important to give county councillors a role because it is they who will be involved in group water schemes. If a pipe is leaking, it is not the county manager who will be contacted on a Sunday morning but the elected representative. People know it is in his or her interests to go and investigate if the water is dirty or tastes wrong or there is no pressure.

The Minister is well aware of the situation in one of County Wexford's holiday areas, namely, the Courtown area where hundreds of new houses have been built in the past ten years. Every summer from June until the end of September the area experiences major problems with the water supply and water pressure because there are so many holidaymakers whom I would not run down as they are very important to the economy of County Wexford but they do not get the water supply to which they are entitled. Regardless of where they come from, they have paid money for their house and services.

The problem may not be the fault of the developer but that of the people who gave planning permission. We should not build housing developments if the proper services for which people have paid and to which they are entitled are not in place. This is relevant in the context of development charges which people should not have to pay if, three or four years down the road, they do not get the services for which they paid. I am a believer in value for money. If people pay for something, whether it is a bar of chocolate, a meal in a restaurant, water services in an urban area or a house, they are entitled to value for money.

Deputy O'Dowd mentioned this morning that there was under-spending in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government last year to the extent of €650 million.

There was some under-spending.

Every Department should spend the budget it is given. I hate the practice of leaving money for a slush fund before a general election. It might be said if I were on the other side of the House, I would do the same, but I do not believe I would.

I am encouraging county councils not to send money back this year.

When a child goes into a shop with money to buy sweets, he or she does not come out with much left over. I do not want to liken the Minister to a child, but I want him to receive the message that he should spend every penny he gets and ensure people get the services to which they are entitled.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. I saw him heading off with other wild geese from this House to set up the European constitution which was achieved with great aplomb. I congratulate him on this. Now he is back as a wild Wicklow goose in the Department where I wish him the very best of luck.

We have sheep in County Wicklow.

I wanted to continue my European analogy.

The Minister must be very happy to be able to present a Bill in his first few days in office. It must be one of the first things he had to do in the House as Minister, even before answering questions at Question Time. What he had to say was interesting. His speech had the great sweep of history which perhaps he brought back from his time in Brussels. I wonder, however, what type of Minister he will be? Will he be a Fianna Fáil-Fianna Fáil Minister or a PD-Fianna Fáil Minister? I wonder how he perceives this Bill? If I were to give my impression of it, I would say it was a PD-Fianna Fáil Bill through and through. If I were to characterise it, I would say it is about putting the final nail in the coffin of local government.

That is not so.

It is about centralising powers in the Minister's office.

That is absolutely clear. It is about providing for privatisation. Despite the PD-Fianna Fáil manifesto which advocates low taxes, it is about allowing for future charges. The Government can say it has a low tax regime and at the same time, as we have seen in recent years, charge for just about everything that moves in a particularly regressive manner that affects those who are poorest, which has been characteristic of the Government. The fourth characteristic of a Fianna Fáil-PD Bill is that it does not care one whit about the environment and proudly states this. The Minister himself has stated this.

It will be interesting to see what the Minister will do on Committee Stage. I am not a member of the relevant committee, but I will watch with interest to see whether the Minister will accept amendments on the basis that he inherited the Bill and was not, I presume, involved in its drafting or detailed planning. It will be a test of what direction his Ministry will take.

I was impressed by Deputy Gilmore's Second Stage speech. It is interesting, as he said, that this supposedly worthy, yet dull Bill which is nice and thick and solid gets remarkably little attention, despite its significance. Regarding some of the powers for which it provides, people will ask four or five years down the road when they were agreed or what was the thinking behind them. No one will remember this Second Stage debate when some of the points were raised.

The coverage is interesting. This afternoon I asked Deputy Gilmore and other Members who contributed on Second Stage, including my colleague, Deputy Cuffe, and Deputy Allen, whether there had been any response or analysis or anybody in the press gallery talking about it and they said there was not a whiff of interest in it. At least it is on the record and in ten years' time we will be able to say we raised particular points.

Let me deal with the four issues I mentioned, of which the first is the loss of power by local authorities. This is a shame and a fundamental mistake by the Government. I was a councillor on Dublin City Council for approximately five years. It was a great honour and I found it a hugely interesting process. If people asked me what was interesting about my job, I always said that in local government what one was doing was examining the plumbing of society, the matters that were not often seen, not fashionable or above the surface, the essential services that make our society work, the central heating of our society, the veins, the life blood of our society in terms of the transport system. The biggest and most important questions — I was a member of the environmental strategic policy committee for approximately five years — related to where we got our water from.

On that committee I was friendly with a roads engineer whom I knew from the transport department. When he switched to the water services division, I asked him how he could move from transport engineering to water. He said it was exactly the same, that he was dealing with flows, capacity and providing for the development of the city. He said it was more interesting because it was just as important as transport but that one did not get the same hassle because it was done beneath the ground and people did not see it. He said there was just as much in the way of interesting engineering projects to tackle but that the public did not necessarily understand what was going on, even though it was hugely important. If the water was turned off, we would hear about it. It is more important than transport. If we did not have water running out of our taps, everybody would ring their public representatives to ask why.

This Bill takes away any powers local councils had to develop strategic plans. I commend the idea of having a strategic plan for water, but the councils do not have one iota of influence or say in this. They will get the plan when the manager is finished with it. That is what the Minister is putting into legislation. As the Bill is drafted, the manager will decide. If the Minister wants to change this, he can do so on Committee Stage.

I am blue in the face saying I am changing it.

I look forward to seeing it amended on Committee Stage. However, as it stands, only the Minister can make suggestions to the local authorities which they will have to introduce. I understand why this may have to be done. For example, when the Dublin City Council SPCs looked at the need to draw water from either the River Shannon or the River Boyne, a local authority on the River Shannon may not have been keen on such a development. Some cases may require strategic intervention on the part of the Minister. However, ruling out council intervention is not right. I commend the Minister for stating he will change this provision on Committee Stage.

During the past 30 years there have been inappropriate developments such as bad and corrupt planning. Planning is often led by the water and sewerage services which fundamentally set out how we plan our cities and towns. Water services often come before proper considerations such as jobs and services for human settlement. I recently spoke with the Galway artist involved with Macnas, Pádraig Breathnach, who has long campaigned for it to be recognised that civil engineers actually decide the direction of our towns and cities, not proper planning procedures. He cited the development along the Spiddal road in Connemara that everyone decries as madness. However, he pointed out that the people were not mad but had been given no choice by the engineer who had laid the water and sewerage systems on the road, forcing them to develop along it. Development along water and sewerage pipes cannot be allowed to continue.

It is not broad enough for the manager and Minister to decide development. Outside bodies are required. In this context, SPCs are a step in the right direction. Environmental, business and social groups need to be involved in such planning decisions because they will spot a repeat of the terrible mistakes made in Dublin and Galway where development occurred along water and sewerage networks rather than in keeping with proper planning guidelines. I am annoyed that the Bill excludes any role for local authorities and, particularly, the SPCs set up to look at these issues. I will commend the Minister if he brings them back on Committee Stage.

While the Minister claims that the Bill does not provide for the privatisation of water services, it does prepare for it. In his Second Stage speech, when praising PPPs, he stated:

Such arrangements represent the best way forward for the development and renewal of our water services infrastructure. They can provide value for money and the application of the latest specialist expertise. They give independent assurance that legal obligations relating to the protection of human health and the environment are being complied with . . .

Can public servants not provide us with the latest specialist expertise and keep an eye on value for money? Are public sector engineers so bad that they cannot achieve these goals? They do not need the 20% profit margin on top to pay for the international companies which usually work on PPP contracts. From my experience, public sector engineers are just as good as private sector engineers.

From the mid-1990s, the staff profile on Dublin City Council did not change significantly. However, the number of technical staff such as engineers, architects and experts in particular functional areas had halved while the number of administrators had doubled. Supposed cost savings are being made in local authorities. However, technical staff have been replaced by administrators for the PPP profit people who are making a 20% profit from the contracts divvied out. This is not an effective use of funds. Deputy Gilmore clearly set out where the potential for privatisation existed in the Bill.

It is better to be honest if water charges are to be introduced in the future or if the European Union so directs. Even if it happens after the next general election, it will be honest to highlight the possibility. Debate can then proceed as to how the charges will work. There is concern that they will be a regressive form of tax that will hit those in the lower income bracket worst. The Minister could set out a system where an acceptable level of usage would incur no charge, while water wastage or excessive use would be metered for extra charges. It is a mistake for him to pretend that the European Union will not push Ireland in a certain direction on this issue and that the Bill does not establish the possibility of the introduction of such charges. In ten years time when the Second Stage debate is read again, it will be evident which Members analysed what would happen and who hid the truth.

The flagrant disregard for the broader environmental agenda is evident in the Bill. In his Second Stage speech the Minister stated it was helpful to visualise water services as pertaining to water in the pipe from the time following abstraction that it first entered a supply pipe to the point of its subsequent discharge to the environment as treated waste water and that the Bill did not seek to take a broader environmental view of water resources issues such as pollution control, water quality in its broadest sense and river basin management. It is remarkable if the Bill does not. However, the Minister contradicted himself later in his speech when he stated——

The Deputy should read the speech in its totality. If he is not being disingenuous, he is being untruthful.

——that the water plans would have to take into account the protection of human health and the environment and supporting ongoing sustainable development.

The Deputy should stick around for my response.

I will. However, it recognises that any plans made in the water provision must take into account what contaminants are in the water before it enters the network and have an effect on the whole water services system. We cannot ignore the environment. What comes out of the pipes has an effect on the environment which cannot be ignored in the planning of our water services.

The EPA has done excellent work on the issue of phosphates in the environment. It stated 5 kilogrammes of phosphates will pollute a ten hectare lake five metres deep. Up to 38,000 tonnes of phosphate in excess of our needs are produced in Ireland each year. If dairy farmers employed proper nutrient management plans, as set out by Teagasc, each of them would save €2,500 a year. That is a water management issue that cannot be ignored. I disagree with Deputy Kehoe on the nitrates directive, as I believe it urgently needs to be taken into account in this type of legislation. One cannot take nitrates out of the water at the processing stage. The European Union has stated that above certain limits nitrates can be harmful to health. Environmental issues cannot be ignored when discussing water services. It is blind, narrow, old-fashioned thinking to believe otherwise.

Is the Deputy aware that the nitrates directive is being dealt with?

I hope the Minister accepts that it does concern the environment. As a tour guide on Lough Leane in Killarney, I told people not to touch the water due to its toxicity. It will be toxic for decades because the excess phosphorus takes decades to be washed out of the system. We have to stop immediately. We have to take this into account in our water management policy. We cannot ignore it. We will not be able to ignore it in regard to group schemes.

I agree with other speakers that group schemes are a fantastic example of community development. However, people are not stupid. Tens of thousands of fishermen have witnessed our country being despoiled. The trout are no longer there. There are also tens of thousands in group water schemes who despite all the good community work done, can see there is a problem with their water supply. There are problems with groundwater because of one-off housing developments and partly because of the run-off from forestry and agriculture. People are not stupid. They understand this is one of the great environmental scandals, that we have allowed our great lakes and rivers to become nutrified.

It is not all bad, some of the worst pollution has been reduced but the overall picture is still an atrocious one which we need to address. I had hoped the Bill would address this issue. I look forward to the Minister's comments on these points and, I hope, to a new direction in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, which is badly needed.

I welcome this opportunity to speak on the Water Services Bill and congratulate Deputy Roche on his appointment as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. His Department is a large one in which water services play an important role. I also congratulate my colleague, Deputy O'Dowd, on his appointment as Fine Gael spokesperson on the environment. He is a very capable Deputy and I know he will do a good job.

Last Monday morning Oireachtas Members in County Clare had a briefing from the county manager and engineers. Water quality was one of the matters we discussed. I am pleased to report that water quality in the county is good.

I have a great deal of experience of group water schemes as I was secretary of a private group water scheme in west Clare for 20 years, the Lissycasey group water scheme. Many group water schemes began in the 1960s and 1970s when securing funding was a great problem. Ongoing funding is required for maintenance and because over time pipes have to be replaced. A total of 720 households were involved, most of them rural households. One third of members were farmers. Before metering was provided for, either for farmers or private houses, there was a great deal of wastage which only came to light when meters were eventually introduced. Thousands of gallons of water were being pumped down the drain. In some cases this was due to broken pipes not being fixed. Metering has been instrumental in conserving water supplies.

Water is life. It is now difficult to get good quality water in rural areas because of pollution. Thankfully, REP schemes have helped to address this issue. Deputy Eamon Ryan referred to nitrates but I do not think we have a problem in County Clare where water quality is good.

I am delighted the Bill provides assistance for the development of group water schemes. Many of the group schemes which originated in the 1960s and 1970s are now due for upgrading. Water needs to be properly filtered. In County Clare the health board monitors water quality. During my time as secretary of a group water scheme, problems with e.coli did occur but people were not as aware of such matters as they now are. It was due to water not being treated. I believe the Department has given grants to the scheme with which I was involved for the upgrading of water filtering.

Earlier in the debate a speaker referred to the lack of quality controls for bottled water. Some supermarkets now have a facility for people to bring their own containers to be filled with the premises' own filtered water. I do not know whether it is filtered. I heard the matter discussed on the radio recently when it was said testing had revealed little difference between bottled and tap water.

Fine Gael has concerns regarding the possibility that county managers could introduce charges for water or water services. People have been hit hard enough with development charges in recent times. Planning applications are now significantly more costly. In some areas development levies can cost up to €9,800. While I accept the payments are once-off, the sums involved are significant. IBEC has expressed concern at the possibility of the introduction of large-scale charges for wastewater treatment being levied on industry, thus making us uncompetitive. Small to medium enterprises comprise 50% of industries. They are already grappling with significant insurance costs. Development charges have also been introduced and now water charges are in prospect.

Another area with which I have a problem is sewerage schemes. We are told the country is awash with money and that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has plenty of money to upgrade group water schemes and sewerage schemes, yet many rural areas are waiting for wastewater systems. This delay is hindering planning. The same is true of group water schemes that need to be upgraded. Some years ago a 100% grant was provided for communities to upgrade group water schemes but this has now been reduced. It is very hard to get communities to take on this initiative and collect money. Local authorities put the onus on local people to collect it to put a group water scheme in place. This hinders development.

Smaller towns and villages should have group sewerage schemes in place. I know of one area in which a meeting was held last week to discuss the matter. Three areas in County Clare, Labasheeda, Carrigaholt and Cooraclare, were promised sewerage schemes would be in place in 2003, 2004 and 2005. However, there is still no sign of anything happening, yet we are told the country is awash with money.

There are good aspects to the legislation but, as Deputy O'Dowd said, we have reservations due to the fact that water charges could be brought in by the back door.

They could not.

They could be. The legislation provides that county managers could bring them in. It is included in the Bill.

It is not.

I hope the Minister will change this aspect of the Bill on Committee Stage when Deputy O'Dowd will probably table an amendment to that effect.

I welcome those aspects of the Bill that will improve our water services. As I said, piping in group schemes developed in the 1960s and 1970s needs to be replaced while filtering systems need to be upgraded. Our water quality will be improved as a result of EU legislation. This legislation must be backed up by money from the Department.

Debate adjourned.
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