Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Nov 2004

Vol. 592 No. 4

Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann resolves that the terms of reference contained in the resolution passed by Dáil Éireann on 7 October 1997 and by Seanad Éireann on 8 October 1997, as amended by the resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann on 1 July 1998 and by Seanad Éireann on 2 July 1998 and further amended by the resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann on 28 March 2002 and by the resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann on 3 July 2003 and by Seanad Éireann on 4 July 2003 pursuant to the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Acts 1921 to 2004, be amended by the addition of the following paragraphs after paragraph I:

‘J. (1) The tribunal shall, subject to the exercise of its discretion pursuant to J(6) hereunder, proceed as it sees fit to conclude its inquiries into the matters specified below, and identified in the fourth interim report of this tribunal, and to set out its findings on each of these matters in an interim report or reports or in a final report:

(a) the Carrickmines I Module;

(b) the Fox and Mahony Module;

(c) the St. Gerard’s Bray Module;

(d) the Carrickmines II Module and Related Issues;

(e) the Arlington-Quarryvale I Module;

(f) the Quarryvale II Module;

(g) those modules that are interlinked with the modules set out at paragraphs (a) to (f), and that are referred to in paragraph 3.04 of the fourth interim report of the tribunal.

(2) The tribunal shall, subject to the exercise of its discretion pursuant to paragraph J(6) hereunder, by 1 May 2005 or such earlier date as the tribunal shall decide, consider and decide upon those additional matters, being matters in addition to those set forth at J(1)(a) to (g) above and in respect of which the tribunal has conducted or is in the course of conducting a preliminary investigation as of the date of the decision, that shall proceed to a public hearing and shall record that decision in writing and shall duly notify all parties affected by that decision at such time or times as the tribunal considers appropriate.

(3) The tribunal may in the course of investigating any additional matter under paragraph J(2) or a matter being investigated under paragraph J(1) investigate any other matter of which it becomes aware when it is satisfied that such further investigation is necessary for the tribunal to make findings on any such additional matter or a matter referred to in paragraph J(1) above.

(4) Notwithstanding any other provision of these terms of reference the presentation to the Clerk of the Dáil of an interim report or reports, as the case may be, and of the final report on the matters identified at paragraphs J(1)(a) — (g), J(2) and, where applicable, J(3) shall constitute compliance by the tribunal with all its terms of reference, as hereby amended, and no further investigation or report shall be required of or from the tribunal on any other matter.

(5) Nothing in these amended terms of reference shall preclude the tribunal from conducting hearings or investigations into any compliance or non-compliance by any person with the orders or directions of the tribunal.

(6) The tribunal may in its sole discretion — in respect of any matter within paragraphs J(1), J(2) and J(3) of these amended terms of reference — decide:

(I) to carry out such preliminary investigations in private as it thinks fit using all the powers conferred on it under the Acts, to determine whether sufficient evidence exists in relation to the matter to warrant proceeding to a public hearing if deemed necessary, or

(II) not to initiate a preliminary investigation and-or a public hearing of evidence in relation to the matter notwithstanding that the matter falls within the tribunal's terms of reference, or

(III) having initiated a preliminary investigation in private, and whether same has been concluded, but prior to the commencement of any public hearing of evidence in the matter, to discontinue or otherwise terminate its investigation notwithstanding that the matter falls within the tribunal's terms of reference.

In exercising its discretion pursuant to this paragraph the tribunal may have regard to one or more of the factors referred to below:

(i) the age and-or state of health of one or more persons who are likely to be in a position to provide useful information, including, but not confined to, oral evidence to be given privately or publicly, including the age and-or likely state of health of any such person at such date in the future when that person or persons might be expected to be called upon to give oral evidence or to otherwise co-operate with the tribunal, and in particular the issue as to whether their age and-or state of health is or is likely to be an impediment to such person being in a position to co-operate with the tribunal or to give evidence to the tribunal in private or in public;

(ii) the likely duration of the preliminary investigation or public hearing into any matter;

(iii) the likely cost, or other use of the resources of the tribunal, of such investigation or any stage of the investigation into any matter;

(iv) whether the investigation into the matter is likely to provide evidence to the tribunal which would enable it to make findings of fact and conclusions and-or to make recommendations;

(v) any other factors which in the opinion of the tribunal would, or would be likely to, render an investigation, or the continued investigation into any matter inappropriate, unnecessary, wasteful of resources, unduly costly, unduly prolonged or which would be of limited or no probative value.

(7) subject to paragraph J(3) any matter not brought to the attention of the tribunal or of which it is not aware by 16 December 2004 shall not be the subject of any investigation by the tribunal.'.

The purpose of the amendments is to expedite the work of the tribunal and to enable it to complete its work by 2007. The tribunal was established by the Oireachtas in 1997 to examine certain specific activities and letters that had aroused suspicions of corrupt acts in the planning process. The tribunal was also mandated to investigate any other matters that came to its attention that could amount to corrupt acts in the period since 20 June 1985. The terms of reference were expanded in July 1998 at the request of the tribunal. As a result, the tribunal is mandated to investigate any allegation of corruption associated with the planning process in the Twenty-six Counties.

Notwithstanding the fact that the tribunal was expanded to include three members in 2001, the work of the tribunal, based on its terms of reference, has proved to be unwieldy. As a result, the tribunal, in its fourth interim report, requested a change to its terms of reference to allow it more discretion in the issues that it investigates to shorten the anticipated duration of the tribunal's activities.

The primary intention of the report issued by the tribunal on 15 June 2004 was to give an overview of the work on hand, including all those matters such as the investigation into the land rezoning at Quarryvale and so forth, that have been widely reported in the media. The tribunal also gave a broad overview of the work that remained on hand, for which no public hearings have begun. Although of necessity the tribunal was circumspect in the language it used, the report indicated the tribunal still has a large volume of work on hand which, if its mandate is played out to its fullest extent, would all have to be investigated.

The tribunal, therefore, indicated that the work could carry on until 2014, 2015 or beyond. The tribunal recognised this situation could not be allowed continue. As a result, it requested a change to its terms of reference, which would allow discretion not to pursue lines of inquiry. If the tribunal then decided that the continued pursuit of its inquiries were of limited or no further value in discharging its mandate, it sought the power to report that to the Oireachtas and to convey to the Oireachtas the wish of the tribunal that its investigations and inquiries should terminate on a date to be specified by the tribunal. In other words, it wanted to have more control over its own situation.

Following publication of the report, the Government mandated the Attorney General, who is the appropriate person to carry out such discussions, to consult the tribunal on changes to its terms of reference, as provided for under the 1998 tribunals legislation. The Attorney General was also asked to discuss with the tribunal the impact of the Government's decision in July 2004 to apply a new scale of fees to the legal teams of existing and future tribunals.

There have been three important outcomes from these discussions between the Attorney General and the tribunal, the proposed changes to the terms of reference, the indication by the tribunal that it intends to sit in divisions following completion of the current public hearings and the granting of additional resources and the date of application of the new fees to the legal staff of the tribunal.

I refer to the proposed changes to the terms of reference. The tribunal currently has a mandate to investigate any allegation of an act of corruption associated with the planning process. Under the proposed changes which are the subject of the motion, a new paragraph J will be added to the terms of reference.

Paragraph J(1) enables the tribunal to complete its current investigations into planning issues in Dublin, including the Carrickmines and Quarryvale modules and interlinked matters. Paragraphs J(2) and J(7) provide for the introduction of two important deadlines. Under paragraph J(7), the final date for receipt of any new complaint or request for investigation is fixed by the terms of reference at 16 December 2004, that is, 30 days from today. The tribunal must decide what new matters on its books will proceed to a public hearing by 1 May 2005. After that date, no new investigation can be referred to public hearing by the tribunal.

However, there were concerns that the tribunal could discover something during its investigations that it feels must be investigated to allow it to complete its overall report and an inflexible deadline should not tie its hands in investigating something like that. For that reason, paragraph J(3) provides that, notwithstanding the dates in the terms of reference, the tribunal will be able to investigate something that it discovers during investigations if it is necessary to enable the tribunal to make findings on the matters it has investigated or has decided to investigate.

Paragraph J(4) provides that the presentation to the Clerk of the Dáil of an interim report or final report on the matters investigated under paragraphs J(1), J(2) and J(3) will constitute compliance by the tribunal with all its terms of reference and no further report shall be required of the tribunal on any other matter. Paragraph J(5) enables the tribunal to continue to conduct hearings or investigations into any issue of compliance or non-compliance by any person with the orders or directions of the tribunal.

Paragraph J(6) will enable the tribunal to exercise the discretion it sought in the fourth interim report on the matters that it proceeds to investigate, having regard, in particular, to the age or state of health of people who are likely to be in a position to provide useful information; how long the preliminary investigation or public hearing into any matter is likely to take; the likely cost; whether the investigation into the matter is likely to provide evidence to the tribunal which would enable it to make findings, reach conclusions or make recommendations; and any other factor which would, or would be likely to, render an investigation, or the continued investigation, into any matter inappropriate, unnecessary, wasteful of resources, unduly costly or unduly prolonged or which would be of limited or no probative value. I intend to bring a short Bill before the Oireachtas in the next few weeks to give legal backing to the discretion being granted to the tribunal to decide which issues within its terms of reference to investigate. These changes to the terms of reference set a firm timeframe for the work of the tribunal, which has indicated that the changes will allow it to complete its work by March 2007.

I refer now to the sitting in divisions. The tribunal has confirmed in writing to the Attorney General that it intends to utilise the power to sit in divisions when it is appropriate and practical to do so. This could not happen until after the hearings of the current modules. However, it is anticipated that the tribunal will begin to sit in divisions thereafter. We welcome this because it will allow the tribunal to cover more ground more rapidly.

The final issue is that of additional resources. To help the tribunal meet the new more challenging time frames, the Government has agreed to the allocation of an additional seven people to its legal team. The tribunal has stated that to achieve the level of work required to complete its tasks by March 2007, especially to allow it to sit in divisions, it will need these additional legal staff. The additional cost should be looked at in the context of the shorter time frame for completion of the tribunal's work — less than three years compared to ten years as indicated in the tribunal's fourth interim report.

The tribunal feels it will now be in a position to complete its public hearings by March, 2007. The Government has decided that the new fee scale for lawyers appearing at tribunals, which was approved by the Government in July 2004, will apply to the tribunal from 31 March 2007. This will happen if, therefore, the tribunal does not meet its own deadline.

The changes proposed today will allow the tribunal complete its mandate within a more, timely and certain framework. The changes will allow the tribunal reach findings and make recommendations to help ensure that events similar to the ones it has investigated cannot occur. I commend the motion to the House.

There were some exchanges on this matter on the Order of Business. As Members will know from the briefing I gave to the spokespersons of the groups, the arrangements for amending the terms of reference of the tribunal were specifically set down in an order of this House on establishment. We must respond positively to the tribunal's requests, but we cannot impose changes on it. Therefore, if I appear inflexible in some of my responses, it is because my hands are tightly tied by the decisions made by this House some time ago.

I move amendment No. 1:

In paragraph J. (1), to delete "interim report or reports or in a Final Report" and substitute "interim report and in a Final Report".

Before dealing with my amendments, I will respond to what the Minister has said. Local government has changed over the past 100 years. In the 1930s and 1940s the County Management Acts were introduced because of widespread allegations of corruption and jobbery in the system. The result of their introduction was that the process of power within local government shifted from the elected representatives to the officials so that we now have probably the weakest local government powers among the European nations. It is time for change, but I did not note in the Minister's proposals any proposal for fundamental change in the planning process or in the way we do business, in particular in dealing with development plans and rezoning issues, which are, effectively, at the root of the corruption which has been so well and clearly exposed by the Mahon tribunal.

I welcome the tremendous work done by Mr. Justice Flood and Judge Mahon in the tribunal. While the tribunal is expensive and is a serious burden, it is worthwhile because of the truth and transparency of its exposure of corruption at the heart of Government and the actions of Ministers. It has been traumatic but useful. What is wrong with this Government proposal is that there is no further proposal from the Minister to change the system and make a difference. That is what we want on this side of the House. We want to see a different planning system and want corruption exposed in a better and more efficient manner than through the tribunals. This is the heart of the issue.

The Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Noel Ahern, said recently that the social cost of bad planning and corrupt decisions in the 1960s and 1970s was approximately €160 million. We want proper sustainable development and real development plans. We want councillors to have real powers. We want an end to the back door unofficial system and approach. We want an end to the nod and wink planning that has been so clearly exposed in Dublin County Council and Dublin City Council through the tribunals. The Minister's proposals mean that the corruption before the tribunals will continue. The only difference is that the Standards in Public Office Commission will investigate some breaches of the law. The law should be stronger. The Government is failing in its duty. While ensuring that this phase of the tribunal comes to a natural end — I accept the Judge is on board with that — there is nothing to replace it. What has happened in the past will happen again. The Government is sadly lacking in this process.

We are debating a motion that sets out to achieve a speeding up of the work of the planning tribunal and brings the prospect of it ending its work within three years. In his fourth interim report to the Oireachtas, Judge Mahon expressed a view that the current terms of reference of the planning tribunal did not afford it a discretion as to which acts it is required to investigate and upon which it should report. The tribunal requested the Oireachtas to amend its terms of reference to provide it with the discretion which would allow it to concentrate its inquiries into areas where it could comprehensively report on payments and acts associated with the planning process.

The motion before the House is the outcome of discussions between the Government and Judge Mahon. While my party had some preliminary consultations with senior Government figures in recent months on these issues, there was no detailed consultation and what we have before us is the product of an agreement reached between the Government and Judge Mahon.

It would have been preferable if the Government had been more inclusive in its contacts and had given the Opposition more opportunity to contribute to contacts with Judge Mahon. We must remember that it was the Oireachtas that established the tribunal and it is the Oireachtas to which it reports. It is not always possible to include everybody in consultations but, given the sensitivity of the issues involved, it would have been in the Government's interest to have had a greater involvement by Opposition parties.

Arising from the absence of detailed consultation, there are a number of issues my party would like to see clarified in this debate. We propose two amendments. The first lists a number of modules on which the tribunal will conduct public hearings. The amendment I have put forward suggests that after each of these modules is completed, the tribunal will issue an interim report. In the interests of natural justice, the tribunal should publish reports as soon as modules are complete and not wait until sometime in 2007 or 2008 to publish its reports on issues that have been in the public domain for a number of years. There are significant numbers of people from many walks of life whose names have been linked to matters before the tribunal. It is unsatisfactory that they should have to wait for years before the tribunal's conclusions on their involvement are known.

My second amendment requests the tribunal to provide the Oireachtas with recommendations on the effectiveness and improvement of existing legislation governing corruption. This is a key issue and the real lesson from the tribunals. What will change as a result of what we have heard? What proposals does the Government have in this regard? It has none.

The initial terms of reference of this tribunal provide at paragraph 5 for the tribunal to make such recommendations if it finds corruption. The earlier reports made specific findings about corruption. We should not have to wait until 2007 or 2008 and the next Dáil before we hear the views of the tribunal on how corruption can be best tackled through legislation. I would go so far as to suggest that, given the length of time this tribunal has been in operation, giving clear recommendations on preventing future corruption should be a priority for it.

Once the 30-day period for new complaints has expired, where should an individual who is concerned that corruption in the planning process may have taken place go with his or her complaint? Past history suggests the Garda was unable to investigate allegations of corruption adequately.

In the programme for Government, Fianna Fáil committed itself to bringing forward a proceeds of corruption Bill, which I understand is currently before the Seanad. Perhaps in his reply, the Minister might give the House the up-to-date position on the provisions he will include in the legislation to prevent and fight corruption.

The commissions of investigation legislation which will allow commissions of inquiry to be set up on an ad hoc basis has been enacted but it would appear to be contrary to the intent of that legislation that there would be a standing commission which could receive complaints and allegations of corruption in the planning process. It is important that we make the necessary legislative changes to provide a mechanism for complaints of corruption to be investigated. I have tabled amendments in an effort to direct the tribunal to the priority issues and I hope that the Minister will accept the points I have made.

I would also like the Minister to deal with a number of other points in his response. Will he explain why the specific modules at J(1)(a) to (f) have been identified? My presumption is that these modules have already been put in the public domain and, in the interest of due process and fair procedure, they must be continued in public. What is not clear from the amended terms of reference is whether some other high profile modules will be heard in public. Will the Minister give the House an indication as to whether Judge Mahon has signalled his intentions regarding the Golden Island issue? On 1 May 2005, in addition to seeing a list of modules, which will proceed to public hearings, will the Oireachtas be given any information, even on a coded basis which does not identify individuals, about the matters which the tribunal is not proceeding to investigate?

In the latter part of the summer, the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy, made an announcement concerning a reduction in fees payable to tribunal lawyers. Part of the agreement reached with Judge Mahon in regard to the planning tribunal involved the appointment of seven additional staff. Can the Minister confirm that these staff will be paid at the rate which is currently being paid to members of staff working at the tribunal and about which there is considerable public disquiet? Will the Minister explain why the new rates as set out by the former Minister, Deputy McCreevy, will not apply to these new staff members? Did this issue arise in discussions between the Government and Judge Mahon?

In the context of the commissions of investigation legislation, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform accepted an amendment from Fine Gael, which provided for legal staff tendering for work at commissions of inquiry. Would the Minister consider using this process for the recruitment of the seven additional staff?

The crux of this debate was put succinctly by a county councillor from County Louth in speaking of the adoption of the county development plan for that county. He said that in the days prior to the adoption of the county development plan his house was inundated with landowners and developers coming to make their case to him. He said it was like spaghetti junction. A great deal of money can be made from rezoning. One can make millions of euro. There is a large and growing population on the east coast in towns like Drogheda and Dundalk and in the Minister's constituency. There are significant development pressures in these areas and sustainable development must also be taken into account.

What proposals will the Minister make to change the present situation in regard to meetings between developers and local authority members? One could argue that there should be no such contact in the context of county development plans or specific rezoning issues that are before a council for consideration. All contact on such issues should solely be through the council. There should be no impediment to a developer writing to a council to make his case or appearing before it. This should also be the case with landowners. Such exchanges should be made in a transparent and open way. At present we do not know which developers are approaching councillors.

Serious and important public issues remain at the core of this matter. As a start we could ask councillors to make a declaration before the council as to which developers had met or contacted them. There is supposed to be a national register but I suggest a register of developers and lobby groups should also be held at council level. This would result in total transparency regarding who is meeting whom and what they are saying. The overriding interest in all cases is the public interest, the public good and the issue of sustainable development.

We should examine how we can improve the planning process and make it more transparent. What added value can we, as Members of the Oireachtas, put into the process to improve it and make it more accountable and transparent? Many councillors are concerned about this issue. They are unhappy with the present situation, which must change. Councillors are prepared to take on the responsibility of making good planning decisions but in many cases the pressure they are being put under is unacceptable. This pressure is localised and personalised. I urge the Minister to consider these issues which would be for the good of local authorities and for the greater good.

Many professional hours are invested in the development of local area plans. A great deal of experience goes into what the managers and their officials propose to councils, yet these can be overturned by a motion under section 140 or pressures for extra jobs. If jobs are needed in an area, then a decision will be taken to go against a sustainable development plan even though it may be considered to be the best plan. Pressures coming through the back door or a councillor's front door are unacceptable. It is important to focus on these changes.

The tribunal was first set up in 1997 but it could be 2007 before it makes recommendations, which is much too long. There has been no response in the interim from the political system, apart from the Commissions of Investigations Act. There has been no fundamental change. Corruption will not go away and human nature has not changed. It is the same throughout the world. We need to protect the public interest and ensure, in so far as we possibly can, that when this tribunal concludes, we will never have a need for another one. The only way we can do that is by changing our planning laws.

The planning process is much too cumbersome. I understand An Bord Pleanála has three or four times the number of appeals it had previously, notwithstanding that we have shortened the time within which it must make its planning decisions. We have a great deal of work to do and I hope we can do it together. Both sides of the House want to tackle this matter and bring back to public life the esteem, merit and worth it so richly deserves but is lacking because of corruption in the planning process and the lack of fine-tuning of some of the rules and regulations governing representation which has led to a spaghetti junction situation, so to speak, at councillors' doors. The area has fallen into disrepute and needs to be changed as a matter of urgency. It is the Minister's task to do it.

I congratulate the Mahon, formerly Flood, tribunal on its outstanding work to date. For years and perhaps decades there had been rumours and speculation about possible corruption in the Irish planning system. Journalists such as Joe McAnthony and Frank McDonald wrote about it. Some members of this House, including me, called for an official investigation or inquiry into it. The Garda investigated it in the early 1990s but nobody was able to make it stand up, produce the evidence, name names or identify corrupt payments associated with particular planning decisions. That was the case until the instigation of the Flood tribunal.

The tribunal has exposed a web of corruption in planning in Dublin involving some developers, public representatives and a former senior council official. The tribunal has done a great public service in exposing the wrongdoing and in hopefully helping to create a more open culture where such corruption should not occur again. It has taken a long time — the Mahon tribunal is now in its seventh year — and it has cost a huge amount of taxpayers' money. In April of this year, the Secretary General of the Department of Finance told the Committee of Public Accounts that all the tribunals and inquiries had so far cost €144 million, of which €103 million was for legal costs, and that a further €300 million was estimated for third party costs, bringing to more than €400 million the total cost of the tribunals to date.

The fourth report of the Mahon tribunal, which was submitted to the Dáil in June this year, sets out an estimate of the time it is likely to take to deal with and report on all the matters before it. It states that it will be 2009 before it is able to report on the matters it is hearing and on the modules, which are inter-linked. It goes on to state in paragraph 5.08: "The tribunal therefore estimates that on the basis that (a) it retains its present constitution of three members and that (b) the current terms of reference remain unaltered, the likely time scale for the completion of all the tribunal’s currently identified workload is probably in the region of ten or 11 years, and that it is unlikely to conclude before 2014 or 2015.”

Based on the figures given to the Committee of Public Accounts by the Secretary General of the Department of Finance, that would bring the estimated cost of this tribunal to approximately €1 billion.

It would be wrong for this House to permit the commitment of such a huge sum of taxpayers' money to the tribunals. We have to face up to the choice of whether €1 billion of taxpayers' money is to be paid to tribunal lawyers or to help solve the problems in our schools and hospitals or among those with disabilities. If even a fraction of this money were to be committed to properly resourcing the planning system at local government level, to include the employment of more professional planners, especially the employment and resourcing of planning enforcement officers, would we not end up with a more satisfactory and transparent planning process and one which is less amenable to corruption?

When this House previously addressed the issue of the tribunal's mounting costs and duration, it decided to appoint two additional judges in the belief that this would speed up the work. I had expected that the three judges would sit in parallel divisions and I have been surprised that they continue to sit as a three-member panel, although I understand that they are now required to do so until they complete the modules and matters which they commenced hearing on a three-member basis. I also note from the fourth report that if they were to sit in parallel, additional resources would be required to service parallel hearings, prepare for accelerated public hearings and provide the additional premises to accommodate parallel hearings.

The tribunal, in its fourth report, identifies the tribunal's current wide and mandatory terms of reference, as the key source of delay. It draws our attention to the requirement that it must investigate everything and that it has little if any discretion. Chapter 7 of the fourth report sets out the amendments that the tribunal is seeking to its terms of reference and these are largely reflected in section 6 of the motion.

I agree it is necessary to amend the tribunal's terms of reference, which were clearly too wide and unworkable from the beginning. The original terms of reference in 1997 effectively expected the tribunal to climb every tree and those who had already been up "every tree in north County Dublin" should have known from experience just how fruitless all that climbing might prove. It makes sense to give the tribunal the discretion to decide what matters it should now pursue and to enable it to weed out the vexatious and the insignificant. After all it is somewhat absurd for a full tribunal to spend months, perhaps years, investigating, first in private and then for weeks in public, payments the amounts of which are sometimes less than the fee which one of the tribunal lawyers will get for a single day's attendance.

The Labour Party shares the general concern that the number of matters on the tribunal's agenda has expanded to grotesque and unmanageable proportions. Clearly there is a need to re-establish a sense of priorities and a realistic end-point. As the Labour Party leader wrote to the Minister on Monday last, the Labour Party is concerned that: "While the amended terms of reference list a series of factors to be borne in mind by the tribunal when deciding whether or not to continue investigation of a matter, all six are factors that would justify discontinuation." I strongly argue in favour of some reference being made to criteria that would justify the continuation of an investigation. I believe we should not send a signal to the tribunal or the public that in the general haste towards a conclusion of tribunal business, serious and substantial matters should be jettisoned. This is particularly problematic where matters will be lost from consideration without the Houses or the public ever having been aware that they were on the tribunal's agenda in the first place.

I am thinking of something along the following lines — an amendment to paragraph J(6) which would add the following consideration: ", whether or not, having regard to the seriousness of the claims made, the public interest in arriving at the truth of the matter outweighs in importance the public interest in avoiding the expenditure entailed by such an investigation." A further amendment would add another consideration to state: ", whether any of the persons claimed to be involved in or connected to the matter are currently, or were recently, public representatives or public servants." These two amendments were, put by the Labour Party leader to the Minister on Monday last, arising from the briefing and subsequent correspondence we received last week. I am now formally moving these amendments to the terms of reference and I hope that the Minister will agree them. Furthermore, I hope that they will then, in turn be agreed by the tribunal, as the Dáil can only amend the terms of reference with the agreement of the tribunal itself.

In reply to the Minister's earlier response, I do not think he is prohibited from accepting these amendments. It is open to the House to amend the Government motion before us and thereafter to seek the agreement of the tribunal to the amended terms of reference. I would be surprised if the tribunal was not agreeable to such an amendment. These amendments are necessary to make it clear to the tribunal that, where the public interest requires it, certain inquiries should be continued.

This is especially necessary in view of paragraph (4) of the Government's motion, which effectively provides for the winding up of the Mahon tribunal after it has completed its examination of the issues relating to Dublin. As I interpret the paragraph, the Mahon tribunal is effectively being told not to continue its investigations outside Dublin. I am not surprised by, that because the Minister has spoken publicly on a number of occasions about Glending, for example. The terms of reference, which we propose to give to the tribunal would seem to prohibit the investigation of that particular case.

Similarly, I am concerned about the prohibition on the investigation of future matters. Any matter which is brought to the tribunal's attention after 16 December next will not be capable of being investigated by this tribunal, which is far too restrictive a condition to place on the terms of reference. It should also be noted that the formula for winding up the tribunal and for the submission of a final report, which is contained in paragraph (4) of this motion, is different from the formula which the tribunal itself proposed in its fourth report. The formula proposed by the tribunal itself is in paragraph (3) of its requested revised terms of reference, which appears on page 15 of the report. That formula provided that the tribunal would make a report to the House on the matters it had investigated and on the matters with which it did not feel it could get any further. It would then seek the authority of the House to wind up its business. For these reasons, therefore, it is important to make it absolutely clear to the tribunal and to the public that, while cost and proportionality are concerns of the Oireachtas with regard to the tribunal's work, the revised terms of reference should not be a message that significant wrongdoing in the planning system should not be examined and exposed.

The issue of cost and the choices that must be made as to the best use of taxpayers' money, centre on legal costs, particularly the fees paid to tribunal lawyers and those who are granted legal representation at the tribunal. The tribunal is to be complimented on the decisive way it has dealt with outrageous claims for legal costs that were made by some of those who obstructed the tribunal and who, in effect, added to its costs.

People who are finding it hard to make ends meet have been scandalised by the enormous fees paid to lawyers at the tribunal. The release of information regarding these fees has given the public a glimpse of the excessive charging by some privileged members of a powerful profession, which serves to make access to the law the preserve of those with money and which also serves to perpetuate inequality and unfairness in society. That is a subject to which the Dáil should return.

Last summer, the Minister for Finance announced, to great media fanfare, that he would reduce the fees being paid to tribunal lawyers from the current rate of €2,000 to €2,500 per day for senior counsel to an annual salary of €213,098 for senior counsel, €176,000 for solicitors and €142,065 for junior counsel. These are not bad salaries by any standards. Under these new payments, a senior counsel at the tribunal would be paid almost three times the salary of a Deputy, a solicitor at the tribunal would be paid twice a Deputy's salary and a junior counsel would be paid the salary of a Minister of State.

However, it appears that some tribunal lawyers have cocked their noses at such salaries. Within six weeks the Government had backed down on the new scale of fees. The new scales will not now apply to the Morris tribunal until January 2006, the Barr tribunal until June 2005 and the Moriarty tribunal until September 2006. In the briefing material we received on the Mahon tribunal, we are told that the new rates of payment will not apply to that tribunal until 31 March 2007. Is it any wonder that the costs of the tribunals are already €400 million and that some estimates of the ultimate cost approach €1 billion?

It is time to put a stop to this gravy train. The new rates of payment should be brought in immediately and not later than 1 January next. There may be senior counsel who can earn more than €213,000 a year and solicitors who can earn more than €176,000 a year. If there are, they can stuff their wigs and get back to cleaning out their clients in the Four Courts. There must be good lawyers in Ireland who are prepared to work in the service of the people for tribunals established by the representatives of the people and for remuneration that is at the highest end of public service pay.

The Oireachtas needs to consider again the need for properly resourced parliamentary committees with the power to investigate and which can, like the DIRT inquiry, get to the bottom of wrongdoing in a manner that is effective, public and cost efficient. Will the Minister reconsider accepting the amendments I have tabled on behalf of the Labour Party and those which Deputy Fergus Flood——

I thank the Deputy for the promotion.

He is not paid that much yet.

That was a Freudian slip. I agree with the amendments tabled by Deputy O'Dowd. It is open to the House to amend the Government motion and the amended motion could be put to the tribunal for its agreement. The amendment is necessary because what we are doing today is not providing a formula for the winding up of the tribunal but a formula for the continuation of its good work in a way that is more cost effective and efficient.

I wish to share time with Deputies Connolly, Cuffe and Morgan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The fourth interim report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters and Payments set alarm bells ringing when it stated that the work of the tribunal could continue almost indefinitely and almost certainly until 2014. There is no justification for any inquiry, regardless of how complex or detailed, to continue for so long. However, there is a message in this for all involved in establishing the tribunals, both Government and Opposition.

At the time of its inception, any logical argument that might have been put forward to ensure the tribunals were structured and focused would have met with cries of rigging and accusations of attempts to muzzle the tribunals in their work. If the intention of any action is to make the tribunals more efficient, there should never be cheap charges of rigging or muzzling. However, the hysteria surrounding the establishment of the tribunals did not permit logical, calm or reasoned thinking. I hope the Government and Opposition Members will learn the message from that for the future.

The main changes proposed have the support of the chairman of the tribunal and, as such, it would be foolhardy of the House to oppose them. The proposal to impose a deadline for receipt of new matters is sensible. Everybody who might have issues of concern will be afforded time within which to make their submissions. It was also a flaw in the terms of reference that the tribunal was obliged to investigate every matter, irrespective of its significance. It always seemed wasteful that three judges sat together rather than in parallel divisions where work could be progressed at a faster rate. I welcome the expectation that all public hearings will be completed by 31 March 2007 and, in advance, I wish the Minister a happy birthday.

I will not get the big fees on the day.

My criticism of the new arrangement is that the legal profession will continue to charge exorbitant fees. That is regrettable. It is certainly not in the interest of the taxpayer.

I am confining my remarks to the detail of what is before the House today. There are many areas one could address during this debate but we must bear in mind that the motion before the House has been agreed between the chairman of the tribunal and the Attorney General. Although I have the highest regard for Deputy O'Dowd and Deputy Gilmore, I question the wisdom of putting down amendments that have not been agreed in advance with the chairman.

I compliment the Minister on the manner in which he has dealt with this matter.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the changes in the terms of reference of the Mahon tribunal. The tribunal chairman's request for more discretion over which cases to investigate and the considerations of cost, corruption levels, likely time scale and likelihood of reaching a conclusion might allow certain individuals to evade exposure. Such individuals will rub their hands in glee at the prospect of not being brought to account.

The tribunal must end some time. The country's longest running saga must reach its inevitable conclusion but some practical means of bringing wrongdoers to book must be found. A clear signal must be sent that such individuals have not escaped. The Cherrywood module and other modules where people have not yet been exposed have still to be dealt with. What happens after 1 May if a major clanger is dropped? What will we do about it?

The tribunal's interim report raised the hopes and expectations of the public that the individuals adjudged to have received corrupt payments were to be made accountable. Such hopes have been somewhat diluted by the fact that these individuals have, in most cases, escaped the consequences of their actions. I trust that the proposed amendments to the tribunal's terms of reference do not serve to shield other possibly corrupt persons from the cold draught of justice appropriately applied. Despite having a staff of six barristers, three solicitors, four researchers and two paralegal personnel, the tribunal chairman described the tribunal as stretched to the limits, if not beyond.

The effect of the motion before the House is to approve changes to the terms of reference of the Mahon tribunal to ensure the tribunal's work is expedited. I am not sure if this is a good thing, even though the most recent interim report held out the possibility of the tribunal's public hearings continuing into 2014 or 2015. By setting the date of 1 May 2005 for decisions by the tribunal on matters to investigate and, in particular, the introduction of new investigations, the tribunal is, in effect, setting a limit on the degree of corruption it may unearth.

Without vision, the people perish. Without fundamental reforms of the planning system, corruption will continue to exist and thrive. It is not enough to change the terms of reference unless the underlying malaise in the land use and planning system is also changed. The vision to encourage such change must come from the top, namely, from the Government and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. At present, a proper planning system in this country has been substituted with a much too cosy relationship between developers and councillors. Unless the position is changed, we will continue to have tribunals from now until the cows come home.

A number of changes are needed. First, the All-Party Committee on the Constitution made strong and coherent recommendations regarding the rezoning of land. It stated that agricultural land, once rezoned, should not provide millions of euro for developers and that it should not attract a value 25% greater than that of the existing use value. If the changes recommended by the all-party committee are introduced, we could, in one fell swoop, deal with many of the conditions that give rise to corruption in the land use and planning system.

The second change I would suggest involves the establishment of a new body to vet development plans at national level prior to their approval. It is not good enough to have a Minister cast his or her eye over these plans to see whether they meet with his or her approval. It is not good enough that the Minister's predecessor directed Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to zone more land. We need a body similar to but separate from An Bord Pleanála to vet development plans. Prior to a development plan being approved, the said body's imprimatur would be required. This would help temper the excesses of the rezoning zeal some councillors bring to the planning process.

The third change I would suggest is that more planning staff must be recruited. Many local and planning authorities do not have the services of full-time planners. I was horrified to hear that the council in a town with which I am familiar, Bray, which straddles the border between Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and County Wicklow, does not employ a planner and that the new development plan is being prepared by the town engineer. Such behaviour does not display the type of vision required to deal with a town, which will change dramatically during the next ten years and in which the population is increasing hugely. The broad spectrum obtained from properly trained planning staff is required and not just that provided by an engineer, regardless of how good are his or her credentials. Planners must guide and provide the vision in tandem with elected representatives at local level.

It is important that the changes before the House should be advertised and placed in the public domain by the Department. After all, a small advertisement placed in the newspapers eight or nine years ago by Colm MacEochaidh and Michael Smith led to the establishment of the Mahon tribunal. Everyone is indebted to these men for the work they did in terms of sowing the seeds for the tribunals. It is important that the changes will be publicly advertised. I support the changes, which, I understand, are being drawn up by other Opposition parties.

I wish to begin on a positive note. The tribunal process has brought into the public domain the corruption, which was endemic in the planning process in this State for many years and has created a climate in which corruption is no longer acceptable. However, there are many problems with the tribunal process as currently constituted. It is costly, its progress is slow and few prosecutions have resulted from its work. The Government has allowed the legal profession to exploit the tribunal process as a cash cow for far too long. The fees being charged by members of that profession are simply obscene.

In the context of the proposed amendments to the terms of reference of the Mahon tribunal, it has been clear for some time that something needs to be done if the process is not to continue indefinitely. The planning tribunals are taking so long because there was so much corruption in the planning system. In every avenue it has pursued, the Flood-Mahon tribunal has discovered more corrupt payments which needed to be investigated.

If we consider the flaws in the tribunal process on an individual basis, the first question we must ask is why the revised fees relating to barristers will not be implemented immediately. What is preventing this from happening? I look forward to the Minister's explanation in that regard. In light of the slowness of the process, why was the proposal to split the tribunal into three separate divisions not implemented when the new judges were appointed to sit with Mr. Justice Flood two years ago?

On examining the future of the Mahon and other tribunals, one must ask whether they are delivering justice. Many believe they are not doing so. Few prosecutions have resulted from the various tribunals held to date. Have the criminals whose activities were laid bare by the beef tribunal, for example, served time behind bars? The answer is that not one of them has done so. How much time has, been served behind bars by corrupt politicians and officials whose activities were exposed by tribunals? Is the Government concerned that the lack of prosecutions has undermined public confidence in the tribunal process?

In terms of the proposals put before the House by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, there are a number of matters in respect of which deep concern arises. We need to ensure that the chairman of the tribunal is not being given too wide a discretion in terms of deciding what to investigate and, perhaps more importantly, what not to investigate. If certain allegations are not to be investigated by the tribunals in public, we need assurances that they will be fully investigated by the Garda. It has been suggested in the media that it is unlikely the payment to Ray Burke, when serving as Minister for Communications, from Rennicks Manufacturing, in which media mogul Anthony O'Reilly has been implicated, will not now be investigated. The Minister must clarify the position in this regard as a matter of urgency. Has the Minister considered giving a role in this process to a committee of the Dáil, particularly in respect of decisions regarding the matters that are not to be investigated? Will there be oversight regarding issues the chairman of the Tribunal of Inquiry into Certain Planning Matters chooses not to investigate?

I wish to make some brief comments about a facet of this issue which is rarely addressed, namely, the consequences of corruption and the victims of such corruption. I refer here to those people who continue to suffer because an official or Minister put his greed ahead of the welfare of the citizens of this State. Corrupt officials such as George Redmond accumulated huge personal fortunes on the back of the misery of ordinary citizens who continue to suffer today from the decisions taken in the past. If the Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Government is sincere in showing us that it has moved away from the corruption of the past, it must prioritise addressing the social consequences of that corruption, which are still evident today.

While the amendments are welcome, they do not go far enough. This is unfortunate because it represents a major opportunity lost in terms of reviving public confidence, particularly in the entire tribunal process. I note that almost everyone who contributed to the debate raised a significant number of questions. It is not just Deputies who require answers; members of the public also want them. I hope there is time for the Minister to provide such answers.

It is now 1.30 p.m., the time at which we would normally suspend the sitting. However, if there is agreement to dispose of this item, we can perhaps accommodate the Minister by giving him five minutes in which to reply.

I will do my best. I thank the Members for their contributions. It has been a good debate which has raised a series of issues. Unfortunately many of the issues, which were raised are outside the remit of this specific motion. I explained at the outset and during the course of the briefings that I was surprised how tightly tied our hands have been. Deputy McHugh made the point that it may be a salutary lesson for the House in that we did tie our hands and bind ourselves to previous legislation. The changes now being proposed are within that context.

Deputy O'Dowd's amendment would mean that the tribunal would have to repeat all its interim reports in its final report and this is unnecessary in my view. The tribunal's interim reports have been an effective method of producing reports on the modules as they were completed and I do not wish to tie its hands and make it unnecessarily complex.

On the matters raised by Deputy Gilmore, I received Deputy Rabbitte's letter this morning. It came to my office while I was in the House. The Deputy wished to add two specific considerations for the tribunal to bear in mind in exercising its discretion. In my view both are unnecessary because the tribunal has been given the right to exercise more discretion in this. Deputy O'Dowd's other proposed amendment would ask the tribunal to make recommendations about legislation by 1 June 2005. I prefer not to tie the hands of the tribunal in that regard. In my view it should be allowed make its recommendations about legislation based on the overview of all the matters it has investigated.

On a point of order. Will the Minister recommend that it come back as quickly as possible on that specific issue?

That would be my hope. However, I do not wish to tie it to a specific date. Deputy O'Dowd also made a very interesting contribution about all the changes in the local government system from the 1890s onwards. I would like to debate that topic with him, given that I made a career out of that subject for 21 years, teaching students in UCD. Deputy O'Dowd and others expressed concerns about the pressures put on councillors and it is a concern I share. An unfair level of pressures is put on councillors. We live in a very open democracy and it is very difficult to see how one could stop, for example, local residents' groups coming to see a councillor. This is probably an issue for a different day.

Deputy O'Dowd and others, Deputy Connolly in particular, are worried that there will be no possibility to carry out further investigations from allegations when this process has finished. This is not the case. Deputy Gilmore did not make a similar suggestion but he indicated his concern to know that there would be an ongoing process. As the House is aware, the Government has put in place a number of mechanisms to investigate allegations of corruption. In particular, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, brought forward the legislation to allow commissions of inquiry to be established. They are far less cumbersome than this process and it has been a learning process.

Deputy O'Dowd also suggested that nothing had changed since the establishment of the tribunal. That is not true, in my view. Legislation will be introduced to tackle corruption in public service.

The Planning Acts have not been changed.

The Planning Act 2000 introduced a new level of transparency in the planning system so I think the Deputy is being unnecessarily harsh with the entire system, which we as legislators have implemented. Deputy Gilmore is correct when he comments on the phenomenal costs and this point was also raised by Deputy Morgan in his final contribution. These phenomenal costs have caused some scandal rather than eyebrows to be raised among the general public. He is correct to state, as was Deputy Cuffe in his contribution, that these resources could have been used. Some €1,000 million was the figure mentioned by Deputy Gilmore. Those resources could certainly be used to better effect, whether by investing in resources or in better planning. We are where we are now.

Under the tribunals Act, the only changes the Minister can make are those which have been requested by the tribunal and where the tribunal has given its consent. Deputies Gilmore and Morgan spoke of the gravy train and the issue of fees. Both asked a reasonable question as to why the new fees are not being introduced immediately. The tribunal has warned it is likely that its legal staff would leave and the work of the tribunal would cease which would not be in anyone's interest. The general cynicism about the system would not be dealt with if we were to operate in that way.

The lawyers are blackmailing us.

I am not saying that. I am simply saying it is a matter——

I am saying it.

That is the Deputy's view and he is entitled to it. The reality is that people are not tied to desks and in a free society they have a right to walk if they wish and that is the danger. On the issue of planners and in reference to Deputy Cuffe's contribution, the Deputy is quite correct that there is a real difficulty getting people with the necessary skills and experience. At the end of 2003 there were 1,795 professional planners in the planning service, which is a phenomenal increase on the figures of previous years. There are still not enough. A lot has been done and undoubtedly there is more to do. At least we are moving in the right direction.

I do not like being inflexible, particularly when I am dealing with people who are being reasonable with me but my hands are tightly tied. Deputy Gilmore commented that I could perhaps accept amendments and retrospectively go back to the tribunal but my advice is that I cannot do so.

What does the Minister mean? The letter from the Labour Party leader was sent to him on Monday, incidentally. He indicated he would consider these two amendments. What does he mean by that?

I did not intend to mislead the Deputy or the House in any way. I sought to explain the situation with regard to amendments to the Deputy and to his party leader. Under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) (Amendment) Act 1998, only changes which either (a) the tribunal has requested or (b) to which the tribunal has given prior consent, following consent by the Attorney General, can be put here. Whether or not I wished to do so I cannot retrospectively do what the Deputy requests.

Then unfortunately the House will have to divide.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 2:

In paragraph J, to insert the following subparagraph after subparagraph (6)(v):

"(vi) Whether or not, having regard to the seriousness of the claims made, the public interest in arriving at the truth of the matter outweighs in importance the public interest in avoiding the expenditure entailed by such an investigation.".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 47; Níl, 64.

  • Breen, Pat.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Cuffe, Ciarán.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Enright, Olwyn.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Healy, Séamus.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Murphy, Gerard.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Keeffe, Jim.
  • O’Shea, Brian.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, Eamon.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Wall, Jack.

Níl

  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Callanan, Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Curran, John.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Tony.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
  • Glennon, Jim.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hoctor, Máire.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kelly, Peter.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McHugh, Paddy.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Fearghail, Seán.
  • O’Connor, Charlie.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • O’Donnell, Liz.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Flynn, Noel.
  • O’Keeffe, Batt.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Malley, Tim.
  • Parlon, Tom.
  • Power, Peter.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sexton, Mae.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilkinson, Ollie.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Stagg and Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 3:

In paragraph J, to insert the following subparagraph after subparagraph (6)(v):

"(vi) Whether any of the persons claimed to be involved in or connected to the matter are currently, or were recently, public representatives or public servants.".

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 4:

In paragraph J, to insert the following subparagraph after subparagraph (7):

"(8) The tribunal shall, not later than 1 June 2005, make recommendations as to the effectiveness and improvement of existing legislation governing corruption in the light of its inquiries to date.".

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 49; Níl, 65.

  • Breen, Pat.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Cuffe, Ciarán.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Padraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
  • Murphy, Gerard.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Keeffe, Jim.
  • O’Shea, Brian.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, Eamon.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Upton, Mary.
  • Wall, Jack.

Níl

  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Callanan, Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Curran, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Tony.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Fox, Mildred.
  • Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
  • Glennon, Jim.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Hoctor, Máire.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kelly, Peter.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Seamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • McHugh, Paddy.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Ó Fearghail, Seán.
  • O’Connor, Charlie.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • O’Donnell, Liz.
  • O’Donovan, Denis.
  • O’Flynn, Noel.
  • O’Keeffe, Batt.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Malley, Tim.
  • Parlon, Tom.
  • Power, Peter.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sexton, Mae.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilkinson, Ollie.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg; Níl, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put and declared carried.
Sitting suspended at 2 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
Top
Share