In allowing this Private Notice Question to be taken, I am conscious that the next item of business, the Road Traffic Bill 2004, is subject to a guillotine. Leaders' Questions have a time limit of seven minutes and priority questions have a time limit of six minutes for a single question and 18 minutes for three or more questions. The Chair believes that 30 minutes is sufficient for a Private Notice Question. Deputy Broughan has submitted one question. I propose to take one round of questions from the main parties following the contribution of Deputy Broughan.
Private Notice Questions.
Industrial Disputes.
Thomas P. Broughan
Question:Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if he will use the powers available to him under the Industrial Relations Act 1990 to intervene in the current dispute at Irish Ferries arising from the decision of the company to make almost 200 permanent workers redundant and its plans to replace them with contract workers from abroad, in view of the consequences for labour relations generally and for the future of the workers at Irish Ferries, in particular, and all workers in the Irish marine sector; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
The system of industrial relations in Ireland is essentially voluntary in nature. Responsibility for the resolution of industrial disputes lies with the parties concerned. However, for cases where the parties have failed to find a solution to an industrial dispute, the State provides the dispute settling machinery of the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. The experience and expertise of these services are available free of charge to parties in dispute. Ultimately, however, it remains the responsibility of the parties concerned to ensure that agreement is reached.
In the case of this particular dispute at Irish Ferries, the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court have been in close contact with the dispute. These services have been available to the parties and remain available to them. In the circumstances, it would be inappropriate for me to use the powers available to me under section 38(1) of the Industrial Relations Act 1990 to refer the matter to the commission or the court.
Does the Minister accept that what has happened in the past few days is, essentially, a lockout of workers by Irish Ferries in Pembroke and Holyhead? Is that not particularly inappropriate and unfortunate since those workers and their trade union, SIPTU, delivered savings of €3.5 million earlier this year to a very profitable company? In that context, is it not wrong that Irish Ferries acted so precipitately in November by proceeding to install outsourced or foreign workers on the MV Normandy ferry?
Does the Minister agree the outsourcing or "yellow packing" of workers from eastern Europe on the MV Normandy is a practice to which the union and the marine workforce generally is rightly opposed? There is the example of the constant struggle to get minimum wages and conditions on the vessel operating between Swansea and Cork. Given that is the case, is it not regrettable and wrong that the company has proceeded with this outsourcing or “yellow packing” of workers? Does the Minister accept this outsourcing is unnecessary as Irish Ferries is a very profitable company? After all, it is only a few months since the chief executive, Mr. Rothwell, gave himself a bonus of €500,000 due to the great profits being earned on the four main ships of this line.
As has been argued, does the Minister accept there is a problem with competition in respect of the Rosslare to France line as the competitor, Brittany Ferries, is subsidised by the regional government of Brittany? Is it true the Minister's colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, has explored ways with SIPTU in which it might be possible to assist Irish marine companies generally with training and other assistance? Does the Minister accept it is a disaster for an island nation which, I think, is the greatest trading nation in the world and which depends on seafarers and the seafaring industry for its exports and imports? The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources recently opened the Irish maritime college in Cork to provide a marine workforce.
Is it true that under the Industrial Relations Act 1990, the Minister may, if of the opinion that a trade dispute, actual or apprehended, affects the public interest, refer the matter to the commission or the court which shall endeavour to resolve the dispute? Does the Minister not have a direct responsibility to get the parties to the table at the Labour Relations Commission to resolve these matters and to ensure the "yellow packing" of our marine workforce by a company which was formerly a State one, acquired for £1——
The Deputy should confine himself to questions. There are other Deputies offering.
I accept that, but it is my Private Notice Question. Will the Minister intervene under the 1990 Act?
The key issue is that we get both sides into the industrial relations machinery to resolve this dispute. There is no point in me engaging in post mortems at this stage or trying to unravel what happened over the weekend, or indeed prior to the events of the weekend. This is damaging to the Irish economy generally. It is a significant infrastructural service for business and employment generally. It is a very damaging dispute and has the potential to become even more damaging. That is why I implore both sides to avail of the sophisticated industrial relations machinery and the expertise and experience available to resolve this dispute.
Both sides have very strongly held perspectives on this dispute and have fears in terms of its wider implications, real or unreal. For example, there is in place a registered employment agreement between Irish Ferries and SIPTU, which dates back to 1994. If one side is of the view the agreement has been breached, there are set procedures laid down as to how it can be pursued through the Labour Court and so forth.
The Deputy is correct that the issue of competition has been raised. In September 2004 my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, and indeed prior to that the former Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, raised this issue of competition with Brittany Ferries on the Ireland-France route with the Commissioner. The Commissioner responded by indicating that no proof of improper payment of state aid had been found, nor offered by the complainants. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, is continuing to pursue the state aid matter with the new Commissioner and has sought a meeting with her following further discussions with the company on its state aid complaint. More work must be undertaken in regard to pursuing the complaint vis-à-vis state aid or unfair competition in this market.
The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources is very keen to provide additional support and to encourage and nurture seafarer employment. Government has been involved in developing fiscal and social insurance relief for ship operators and for seafarers——
Why allow the "yellow packing" of workers?
As the Deputy knows, the Department recently obtained Department of Finance approval for the reintroduction of the employers of seafarers PRSI refund scheme with effect from 1 January 2004 for a period of seven years. That is going through the EU for permission. As the Deputy knows, a unique income tax relief for seafarers has been in place since 1998. There is also the seafarer's €6,350 income tax allowance, for which many people lobbied. The Government facilitated the establishment of a public private partnership which resulted in the €51 million maritime college located in Ringaskiddy. All these measures are designed to create a viable seafarers sector.
Where are they all going to work if the jobs are gone?
It is regretted that this decision by the company has resulted in the loss of up to 200 jobs. Given that it is a stated Government objective to create a viable sector in terms of employment and given that this is a maritime nation, it is not something about which we are pleased. Equally, we are very anxious to maintain these services for the benefit of Irish industry and so forth.
There will not be an Irish seafarer in five years' time.
The Deputy concluded by referring to the utilisation of the unique power I have under the 1990 Act. That power has not been used in decades. I said in my reply that at this stage and in the circumstances, I do not propose to intervene. Our preference is that the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court would be utilised by both sides to effect a resolution of this dispute.
Given the impact on the economy of an island nation, has this issue not been allowed to drift for months without action? The warning signs were clearly identified. Is the Minister not disappointed that Irish Ferries is the only company operating an all year round service not only for business but for tourism? From a commercial point of view, this is the busiest time. Is this dispute not having a huge impact on retail outlets? I visited the new state-of-the-art maritime college in Cork in which €51 million has been invested. Is it not remiss of us that we do not have a policy in regard to seafarers as we face a challenging time with Brittany Ferries enjoying a subsidy of which Irish Ferries cannot avail?
I made the point about the competition argument. There is a procedure in place. If a complaint is made that there is unfair competition or illegal utilisation of state aid, then one pursues that. I understand a complaint was made and, as I said, I have been advised that the commissioner responded to earlier representations made by the former Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, when he raised the issue of state aids with former Commissioner de Palacio in January of this year. The response was that no proof of any improper payment of state aid had been found, nor offered by the complainant. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, is pursuing this matter with the new commissioner with responsibility for state aids. He has also been in further discussions with the company about the state aid complaint. It is one thing to make a complaint or a general allegation but it should be followed up with evidence to prove it. Our position is that there should be a level playing pitch in this area.
There is an allegation concerning State aid but does the Minister not feel it is unfair when services are cherry-picked? I know this matter will go to the Labour Relations Commission but does the Minister not see a justification for Ireland, as an island nation, to be entitled to compete in such a manner? Irish Ferries was under State ownership until it was sold off some years ago. Is it not a loss that the State does not have some involvement in the direct management of the company?
Is the Deputy saying there is a case for State ownership?
As an island nation, is the State not restricted somewhat by not having a direct involvement in the ownership or operation of such a company?
Should we still have one?
Not necessarily. Many companies have availed of international maritime agreements and Deputy Broughan referred to the Cork-Swansea route in this regard. We have to watch what is happening globally in terms of building up a viable seafaring sector.
Yes.
There are many challenges that fuelled some of the reliefs that were introduced earlier by previous Ministers for Finance and the Marine in collaboration with each other. A State takeover of the company is not on the agenda. The key point from my perspective is that there should be a level playing pitch. If there are complaints about State aid they should be pursued vigorously and proof of illegal state aid should be provided to the commission.
Will the Minister investigate that?
The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, who has specific responsibility for the matter is pursuing that. The previous Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, pursued it and received a negative response from the commission, which said it had no proof.
Would the Minister accept that there is very little spare capacity for exporters on any other ferry services? Has his Department undertaken any evaluation of the consequences for business and jobs generally — above and beyond the 140 staff laid off from Irish Ferries — if the dispute continues or escalates? If such an evaluation has not already been done, does the Minister intend to undertake one and, if so, when?
I was interested to hear the Minister state that he is keen to see a level playing pitch. Will he take up the issue of Brittany Ferries, which, as has been mentioned, is being subsidised by local and regional authorities in France? Does Irish Ferries need, at the very least, an indication of political commitment that Ireland would maintain the necessary seafaring trade routes that have already been established and that are important for Irish trade? Will the Minister meet the company or the unions to express the political commitment, whatever about the financial commitment, which would seem to be warranted if he is determined to have a level playing pitch?
I have answered the question about State aid. I repeat that a complaint has been made and the previous Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, raised the matter with the European Commission. The commission said it had no proof and the company that made the complaint has not offered any proof. The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, is in discussion with Irish Ferries about the complaint and will pursue it with the new commissioner for State aids. That is the position and, as it relates to Brittany Ferries' argument, the Government is committed to pursuing that issue with the commission to ensure that there is a level pitch.
The Deputy raised the issue of spare capacity and clearly this is having a damaging effect on Irish exports. The Government is not particularly happy about that. Wearing various hats over the years, I have been involved in trying to resolve different types of industrial relations disputes. It is not always the best solution to have Ministers rushing in to resolve disputes. In recent years, we have developed good industrial relations machinery that works if it is used effectively, by both sides putting aside their conditions and talking to try to achieve a resolution.
While dealing with workers' fears and concerns on the one hand, and the requirements of the company and its business on the other, there is room to resolve this dispute. The first issue must be to find a basis on which both sides can approach the Labour Relations Commission. Both sides should work with the commission to try to establish a basis for negotiations and should then engage to get this dispute resolved because it is damaging the economy. I will evaluate the day-to-day impact of the dispute. Companies have already articulated their concerns to my Department, so I am under no illusion that this dispute is having a damaging effect.
Under the various social partnership agreements we have had a good record of industrial relations. In the past decade there has been a significant reduction in the number of working days lost through disputes. That has created a good image for Ireland internationally as well as creating a good atmosphere for inward investment. The secondary damage of a dispute like this one is that it has a ripple effect on that perception of Ireland. I urge both sides to get into the talks process at the Labour Relations Commission quickly.
Noting the Minister's earlier reply to Deputy Broughan, what further deterioration does he believe must occur before he will intervene in the dispute at Irish Ferries? Does he accept that the recruitment by Irish Ferries of cheap overseas labour is yet another exposure of Irish management's scant regard for Irish workers and for the economy as a whole, and that it is both foolish and short-sighted?
As regards the Deputy's question on intervention, I do not know the exact period but it is quite a long time since that method was used. I do not want to say that the dispute must get to a certain degree of severity before there will be ministerial intervention. I am appealing to both sides to enter the process and start talking. They owe that to themselves and to the country. They should stop sparring and saying "We can't go in because of what you have done". They should get into the talks process and resolve the dispute.
What about the recruitment of non-union labour?
I have already stated my view on that. I regret what has happened in terms of the jobs lost. There are international maritime agreements whereby companies can work under different flags of convenience, thus enabling them to engage in this kind of activity. I am concerned about it because it has implications for maritime policy to create a vibrant seafaring sector, which I will have to study. Obviously, it is not something that I welcome.
How can the Minister answer questions on the Irish Ferries strike as if he was commenting on a rather dull football match or watching paint dry? Does he know why the workers had no option but to go on strike? Does he accept that ferry transport generally is a lifeline for trade in goods and services, as well as passenger transport, for an island nation such as ours? Why, therefore, will the Minister not condemn the bosses at Irish Ferries who treat the staff as if the ships were banana boats on an unimportant fruit run? Is the Minister aware that the owners of Irish Ferries, beginning with the Normandy, are replacing permanent, pensionable jobs with positions for unfortunate, unemployed east European workers? The latter are being treated as coolie labour with slave wages, no pensions and no social protection. Does the Minister accept it is nothing but sheer greed that is driving the owners of Irish Ferries to replace staff with crucial sea-faring skills, which will be lost forever, with lesser-trained, cheap, yellow pack personnel? Will the Minister get off the fence and stand by workers’ rights, which is the issue at the core of this dispute?
Hear, hear.
My position is to stand by workers. I am not interested in grandstanding——
The Minister should just stand for a start.
I am interested in being effective for Irish workers, not in making great grandstanding speeches——
The Minister is grandstanding.
I ask Deputy Joe Higgins to allow the Minister to continue.
If I were to make a speech similar to that of Deputy Joe Higgins, I would put resolution of the dispute further down the road. I am interested in achieving a resolution of the conflict. I am aware, as is Deputy Joe Higgins, of the importance of this issue and its significance for the economy and for the workers concerned. I do not need lectures from Deputy Joe Higgins in this regard.
If that is the case, why does the Minister not speak out? He should condemn the situation.
Many Members on this side of the House, including me, come from a working-class tradition. I ask Deputy Joe Higgins not to lecture me on workers' rights.
In that case, the Minister should condemn the owners of Irish Ferries.
Deputy Joe Higgins should allow the Minister to continue without interruption. He should resume his seat or I will move on to the next business.
Members on this side of the House have improved the quality of life for workers.
There is already a registered agreement between the employers and the workers in this case, which was hammered out as far back as 1994. A procedure was established for dealing with any breach of that agreement but this has not been followed for one reason or another. The option is there of making a formal complaint to the industrial relations machinery of an alleged breach of an agreement. It has not been taken up.
Irrespective of that, there is still an opportunity for resolution. The workers have genuine fears regarding what may happen elsewhere in the firm. Ultimately, those fears and concerns must be resolved in the context of the industrial relations machinery. I am saying to both sides that they must stop the sparring, get on with resolving the situation and approach either the Labour Relations Commission or the Labour Court. This is the only way to resolve the dispute. There cannot be a scenario whereby the Minister gets involved in every dispute that arises. That will not happen.
The bottom line is that the Minister should condemn exploitation.
I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this debate and the Minister for coming into the House to respond. The key principle of this dispute, and the reason workers felt desperate enough to go out on the streets last Thursday and that the company locked them out, is the issue of outsourcing or "yellow-packing" of a key skill in the economy. It is the function of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to ensure that highly skilled, maritime jobs remain in this country. It is ludicrous that the maritime college is being built in the Minister's constituency while we face the prospect that there will be no maritime jobs. The workers are desperate. They predict that this outsourcing will spread throughout the entire workforce of 1,200 at Irish Ferries and those of other marine companies. It is incumbent on the Minister to take action in this matter.
Under the 1990 Act, the Minister has the power to intervene in a dispute of special importance. This dispute qualifies as such. As mariners say, "if you bought it, a ship brought it". Our trade is dependent on ships. In this context, it is incumbent on the Minister to order an inquiry and ask the LRC to get involved. The situation must be resolved as quickly as possible so that no more Irish trade is affected and high-quality Irish jobs are retained in the maritime sector.
Under the Merchantile Marine Act 1955, ferry companies are in a position to do what Irish Ferries has done in this case. The Government and I are concerned with any widespread or wholesale use of this procedure. However, there is an existing agreement between the unions and the company in this case, which dealt with pay and the rights and conditions of workers. If the allegation is that there has been a breach of that registered employment agreement——
The company broke off its dialogue with the workers on 20 October.
A procedure including the provision of penalties can be utilised to follow through on the complaint. This procedure has not been availed of for various reasons but it exists under the legislation and should be utilised. I have already stated that I have appealed to both sides to set forth their positions. It is incumbent on both sides to get involved with the LRC to resolve this and establish a basis for agreement.
I understand the workers' fears in terms of the potential ripple effect arising from this situation. Some 80% of workers have already accepted the severance arrangements offered. The real issue is a consideration of the potential fall-out for the remaining workers. One way to bed that down is to initiate a process that can fix reassurances for the time being. I thank Deputy Broughan for raising the issue and will keep in contact with him regarding developments.
The Minister should take the initiative in this matter.
Thankfully, as Deputies have observed, we are now a nation of imports and exports in trade rather than an exporter of people. It is important that we have control of our air and sea routes. The air route is already in jeopardy as a result of some of the developments with which it has been threatened recently.
The Minister cannot simply say that he is imploring both sides to avail of the necessary machinery. Can he take a proactive step by publicly inviting the chief executive officer of the LRC to invite both sides for talks on a resolution? Such an approach would represent the Minister taking an initiative by pointing to the fine tradition of the LRC in resolving disputes, and in formally calling on the CEO to bring both sides together to resolve the matter.
Irish Ferries first began employing yellow pack workers in my constituency of County Wexford. I recall what the Minister said several weeks ago regarding jobs for the county but will not go into that now. The most serious aspect of this situation is its possible spin-off effect for Irish Ferries and for those companies dependent on its business, including engineering, cleaning and cash and carry firms. Irish Ferries spent millions or thousands every year on the services provided by such companies but that has ceased. Irish Ferries will attain such services from companies outside Ireland.
The Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, spoke at the weekend of his direct involvement with the management and unions. Did the Minister offer his assistance to the Minister of State in getting directly involved in this effort to initiate negotiations?
Ministers do not get involved in the daily resolution of disputes.
The Minister should do so. It is about time he did.
I have been involved in some serious industrial relations issues in recent years. A Minister rushing to get involved would have been unhelpful to the ultimate resolution of those disputes. One must judge when an intervention will be most helpful. Deputy Costello asked if I would publicly invite the CEO of the LRC to become involved. I do not have to do so.
The Minister should give some indication that the LRC should become involved.
That would only be for the optics. It would look and sound grand but would have no effect.
The Minister will do nothing.
Both sides have had discussions with the Labour Relations Commission with a view to finding a formal basis for getting involved. The process for resolving industrial disputes does not involve weekly grandstand gestures which, in the newspapers and on television, looks as if one is intervening.
There is a lack of leadership.
In reality, that type of contact is happening.
The Minister is doing nothing.
That is why we established the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court.
Every day counts.
I know that. This dispute will be resolved within the confines of the Labour Relations Commission or the Labour Court. That is the key point.
Will the yellow pack workers still come in?
I have been involved in a number of disputes and I have some idea how to approach these issues. It is important not to undermine the institutions that have the expertise, skills and experience to resolve these complex industrial relations disputes. One does not undermine those institutions for the sake of good publicity.