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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 7 Dec 2004

Vol. 594 No. 3

Priority Questions.

Public Transport.

Olivia Mitchell

Question:

46 Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Transport if it is his intention to introduce bus competition, given that Dublin Bus does not have sufficient capacity to meet demand for bus services; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32404/04]

I understand the management of Dublin Bus is examining ways of maximising the utilisation of the existing bus fleet in light of the significant investment made to date under the national development plan and the ongoing changes in demand patterns in Dublin. It would clearly be premature to make any decisions on investment in additional capacity until my Department is satisfied that existing resources are being utilised in the most efficient and effective manner.

I am continuing to review the work undertaken by my Department on the reform of the bus market. I have also had a number of useful meetings with key stakeholders, such as the CIE unions and the management of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann. I welcome the consensus shown by those I have met to date that both State-owned and private bus companies have a valuable role to play in delivering the future public transport needs of Dublin.

In this context, I have asked the management of Dublin Bus and other stakeholders to submit their views on how best to give effect to Government policy in this area. I look forward to receiving these views. When I have considered them and completed my review of the work undertaken by my Department, I will, in a spirit of partnership, decide how best to proceed to give effect to the Government commitment to reform.

I am amazed by the Minister's answer that he is now seeking views and will make decisions in the future. All these decisions have been made. The national development plan included a commitment to provide Dublin Bus with 250 additional buses. Is the Minister aware that Dublin Bus has received no new buses since the 93 that were provided in 2000? Now we discover there will be no new buses in 2005. These buses were promised as part of the national development plan. Why is there a delay?

Why do we need further reviews? Is it because the Minister has not decided whether to introduce competition? Deputy Cullen is the third Minister to talk about reform and regulated competition. This is Aer Lingus all over again. We have neither competition nor a properly resourced state system. We must have one or the other.

There is no prospect of relieving congestion in Dublin from any source other than the bus service. God knows if any of us will live to see the metro. New services will not be provided unless they are extra bus services. When will we have a decision? How many more reviews and Ministers will we go through before we see additional buses? What has happened to the promises made in the national development plan?

I do not agree with Deputy Mitchell. Perhaps she has misinterpreted what I said. There is already competition. The Luas has brought competition to Dublin Bus on certain routes. There is competition from DART and also from other new services. I have had good discussions with the participants and I am pleased that all sides agree with me that the commitment to market opening in the programme for Government must become a reality. Everyone accepts that the future transport needs of Dublin can be provided by a combination of public and private operators.

I want to make sure we get the best outcome for the customer. The customer wants, needs and demands the best service that can be put in place, irrespective of who delivers it. I am engaged in providing that at present. In that process, the issues of rolling stock and new buses for Dublin Bus arise. I am anxious to deal with those issues but I also want to make sure that we are getting the absolute maximum value for money from what has already been provided. I have been actively engaged on this issue for only a few weeks and I will bring it to conclusion early in the new year.

I do not doubt the Minister's good intentions. However, we have a five year envelope for investment in public transport, a national development plan and a platform for change for Dublin. All of these are now up in the air and none is being pursued as envisaged. What is the point of talking about envelopes of funding going forward when the content, the programme, the budget and the timing are all changed at the whim of every Minister who comes along?

I am not changing anything on my whim. I disagree that I have shelved any of the projects to which Deputy Mitchell referred. I have not. I want to move them on and have decisions taken on them. However, I am conscious of the process and of understanding what outcome we can derive from each project. I am not going to do something for the sake of some perceived ideological outcome. I want an outcome which delivers real benefit to public transport in Dublin. That is at the core of what I am saying.

The discussions I have had with management and unions have been very good. There is an all round acceptance of market opening. I want to see what some particular aspects of market opening will deliver. When we go down this road it is important that we can clearly demonstrate to the paying customer who wants to use public transport that this is an enhancement of the public transport service and that everyone is a winner as a result. My efforts are focused on the customer.

Road Safety.

Róisín Shortall

Question:

47 Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Transport his plans in respect of the provision of central crash barriers on the M50. [32531/04]

Seán Crowe

Question:

48 Mr. Crowe asked the Minister for Transport the steps he intends to take to ensure the provision of central crash barriers on the M50 following the recent serious accident on that stretch of motorway. [32402/04]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 47 and 48 together.

Is that agreed? Agreed. The time allowed for two oral questions is not more than 12 minutes.

The provision of median barriers on national roads is a matter for the National Roads Authority, NRA, having regard to best practice in road safety and EU standard for safety barriers of this type.

The position generally in regard to the provision of median barriers on national roads is that: median barriers are currently being provided on all new motorways and dual carriageways irrespective of the median width; and median barriers are being retro-fitted on all existing inter-urban motorways and dual carriageways irrespective of median width and this work is expected to be completed by mid-2005 with the exception of the M50.

In the case of the M50, it had been intended by the NRA that median barriers would be provided in the context of the upgrade project which is due to get under way, subject to An Bord Pleanála approval, on a phased basis in late 2005 for Phase 1 and in 2006 for Phase 2.

However, in light of the recent crossover accident on the M50, in which a young woman tragically lost her life — I offer the family of the young woman my condolences and those of the Government — the NRA is now considering the options for providing median barriers in advance of the M50 upgrade. The NRA has been asked to inform my Department of the outcome of its considerations of this matter as soon as possible.

In light of the two recent serious cross-over accidents on the M1 and the M50, does the Minister accept that the safety policy on our motorways is no longer acceptable? Why is the Minister passing the buck by saying this is a matter for the NRA? It is a matter for the Minister to set down policy in this area and for the NRA to carry out that policy. I ask the Minister to get off the fence on this matter and give us his own view of what should happen in respect of central median barriers.

Now that the NRA has finally accepted the need for central barriers, is the Minister aware that the authority proposes to use low containment wire rope, which is the lowest EU grade of barrier? Is he aware of the many problems associated with that? Low containment wire rope does not prevent any kind of heavy vehicle crossing over into the oncoming traffic and poses very real dangers to motorcyclists. Does the Minister realise that practically every other EU country uses the more substantial H2 category of barrier, which provides cushioning and will provide safety against impact for even the heaviest vehicle? What does the Minister propose to do to ensure that our motorways become more safe?

There is already a substantial programme in place for the introduction of median barriers. They are being installed on all new motorways and dual carriageways and retro-fitting has begun on all inter-urban motorways and dual carriageways. Because a major upgrading of the capacity of the M50 is to begin next year, it was decided not to install the barriers until then. However, in the light of the recent accident I have asked the NRA to review that decision.

While not lessening one aspect or the other, it is equally important to state that we all have a responsibility while driving. It is wrong to suggest that barriers would suddenly stop all accidents.

I am not suggesting that. However engineering solutions are required.

I do not say Deputy Shortall is suggesting that. I merely make that point. I do not like the idea of the focus being taken off safe driving. I do not say Deputy Shortall has done that.

The Minister is taking the focus off the NRA.

In the context of refitting the M50 and on foot of what has happened, I have asked the NRA to come back to me on this matter as quickly as it can. I am waiting for that report.

I join the Minister in sending my sympathy to the family of the young woman who was killed in the recent accident on the M50 and to those who were seriously injured. I passed the scene of the accident approximately one hour after it happened and I was shocked to see the state of the cars involved.

The Minister says the NRA is considering the installation of median barriers on the M50 and that this will be done as soon as possible. Can he give the House a timescale for that? When will this happen?

On the day of the accident I noticed a car travelling on the M50 at approximately 30 miles per hour and displaying large L plates, people using mobile 'phones while driving and children unrestrained in the front seats of cars. On the day that was in it, it was very disappointing to see that. While the barriers alone will not solve the problem, they will clearly go some way to doing so. Everybody who has passed by that road or read about it in the newspapers is concerned and wants to see it happening as soon as possible. What has brought about the change? Is it because the young woman died? We will see increasing numbers of such accidents unless we upgrade and install barriers on such roads. If the NRA in its wisdom decides to proceed, when will barriers be put on that road?

I reiterate what I said, median barriers are being provided on all new motorways and dual carriageways irrespective of the median width. Median barriers are being retrofitted on all existing inter-urban motorways and dual carriageways irrespective of median width and this work is expected to be completed by mid-2005 with the exception of the M50. The M50 will have a very substantial upgrade starting next year. The NRA is aware of the urgency of this matter and I want to hear from it as quickly as possible. I want, and the Government is determined, to have the best standards of safety possible on all our roads, motorways etc. Such standards do not of themselves stop what happened recently on the M50. I understand that if a barrier had been in place, unfortunately, it would have made no difference.

Who said that, the NRA?

I am merely telling the Deputy that I understand a barrier would not have made that much difference. However, that is to speculate. The point is that to present these in this way is wrong.

The Garda has made a report.

I ask the Minister to tell us who said that. I cannot imagine any expert in this field making such a claim and I ask the Minister to substantiate it. The question specifically referred to the M50. Last week on the "Prime Time" programme the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, said that the central crash barrier will not be provided on the M50 until the upgrading work is completed. The Minister today said something different, that he is considering it. When does the Minister expect to take a decision on providing a much-needed central crash barrier on the M50? It is important for him to let us know and stop kicking to touch on the matter.

In my previous question I asked the Minister to comment on the fact that on many of our motorways the NRA is using wire rope, which is completely unsatisfactory, unsafe and poses serious dangers to motorcyclists. What is the Minister's view on the fact that the NRA is using the lowest grade central crash barrier when all other European countries are using the much safer higher-grade barrier?

I understand very different types of barrier are used on various motorways with different road design throughout Europe, not just in Ireland. The NRA has used different types of barriers. The M50 upgrade in terms of putting the barriers in place is to happen.

As soon as the NRA can tell me it can do it. I cannot just click my fingers.

Will it happen before the upgrade?

I have asked the NRA if that would be possible.

Can the Minister not instruct the NRA?

The amount and speed of traffic on the M50 may be reduced very significantly because of the substantial upgrade of the M50.

Where will that traffic go?

As I am not an engineer, I need to be advised by the NRA engineers as to what is possible in advance of the upgrade.

The problem seems to be cost.

If it can be done it will be done. I have asked the NRA to respond to me as quickly as possible.

The Minister will fund it.

While the Deputy may not have made such comments, much of the comment in recent days has suggested that these barriers of themselves solve the problem. That is not the case as the problem lies with speed, drink and drugs.

The central crash barrier provides protection for other people.

They are the key issues endangering lives on the roads.

That is true of any road.

The person killed in that accident was going about her daily business acting correctly within the law when another vehicle caused the accident.

Does the Minister accept that a central crash barrier would have prevented the accident?

It should not happen anyway.

I do not know the answer to that question, nor does the Deputy.

The Minister has just said the reverse. He said there is a view——

Let us be clear about this matter. I said that I understood the vehicle was in mid-air when passing the point at which the barrier would have been located and it would have had no effect on the vehicle.

What about the M1 crash two weeks earlier and the issue of chicken wire?

Air Services.

Olivia Mitchell

Question:

49 Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Transport if it remains Government policy to support the development of a second terminal at Dublin Airport; the progress which has been made to implement this policy; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32405/04]

I assume the Deputy is referring to the concept of an independent second terminal at Dublin Airport and, in this regard, I am not aware of any decision in support of that concept announced by the former Minister for Public Enterprise. As the Deputy will be aware, An Agreed Programme for Government includes a commitment to examine proposals for a new independent terminal at the airport and to progress such proposals if the evidence suggests that such a terminal will deliver significant benefits.

Passenger traffic through Dublin Airport is expected to grow from last year's level of almost 16 million passengers to 30 million by approximately 2018. New infrastructure capacity and facilities, both airside and landside, will be needed to cater for this growth. Further terminal capacity will be needed in the next few years. The question at issue is not whether new terminal capacity should be provided at Dublin Airport, but rather the most appropriate mechanisms for providing such capacity.

Last year a report by a panel of experts chaired by Mr. Paddy Mullarkey assessed the independent terminal concept taking account of the expressions of interest submitted to my Department on the development of an independent, competing terminal at Dublin Airport. I recognise that an early decision is necessary on this matter so that, regardless of how it is provided, adequate terminal capacity is in place at Dublin Airport when required to meet the growth in passenger traffic. In this regard, my Department is consulting the new board of the Dublin Airport Authority and I intend to bring proposals on the matter to Government very shortly.

I am again somewhat bemused by the Minister's statement that no commitment was given by previous Ministers. The Minister is the third Minister to promise to bring proposals to Cabinet shortly. Why is further consultation on this matter needed given that the Minister has already advertised for expressions of interest and that commitments were given by the former Minister for Public Enterprise, Senator O'Rourke, the former Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, and now by the present Minister for Transport? It is not a question of capacity being needed in 2018, capacity is needed now and was needed years ago. Anybody who has travelled through Dublin Airport will know that it is dangerous at times given the overcrowding. When will a decision be made and is the Government committed to allowing a second terminal to proceed?

I may surprise the Deputy when we get a few decisions in the very near future. Given that I have only been Minister for Transport for six or seven weeks, I will not promise the House to make decisions very shortly and spend the rest of my two and a half years defending why I have not done so.

The Minister's predecessor had made approximately 15 decisions by that stage in office.

The Deputy can take it for certain that I will bring this matter to Government. I fully accept that a new terminal is needed at Dublin Airport — that is no longer even a debating point. The new board has recently been appointed and I have had discussions with the chairman. I want to move the matter off the agenda. The chairman is considering certain issues from the authority's perspective. I have my own views and I have had discussions with my officials on the matter. I want to get a clear picture and go back to Government as quickly as possible. I agree with the Deputy that the travelling public needs a decision made so that this facility can be put in place. It is needed for the sake of tourism, not just to facilitate the airlines. I have no difference with the Deputy on this issue.

I was delighted with Ryanair's recent decision to create a hub at Shannon. However, it is telling that no capacity exists for further growth at Dublin Airport. That emphasises the urgency of making a decision on Dublin Airport. It is the airport of our capital city and will always serve the largest centre of population. While we do not know how the airline business might change in coming years a decision is critical if Dublin is to become a hub for any airline in the future. I ask the Minister to make an early decision on the matter.

The future of air travel to and from this country is extremely upbeat. I believe the evidence is clear that all the airports in the country will experience huge growth. Aer Lingus and other airlines will have huge opportunities. Dublin is our capital city and Dublin Airport is and will continue to be our main airport and there are capacity issues there. The sooner there is a decision on this matter, the better so we can move forward. Everyone who flies into and travels out of this country will be delighted to see a second terminal in place in Dublin Airport. We can do this quickly.

Rail Network.

Róisín Shortall

Question:

50 Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Transport his views on proposals from Irish Rail for the Dublin rail plan and interconnector; and his plans, in the context of these, in respect of plans to link the two Luas lines. [32527/04]

To provide an integrated rail network in the greater Dublin area, Irish Rail submitted proposals to my Department in July 2004 for a €3.5 billion investment to four-track the Kildare line, electrify the Kildare and Maynooth lines, build an interconnector tunnel linking Heuston to the docklands, construct a spur off the Maynooth line to Dunboyne and expand the capacity of the DART.

The Irish Rail proposals are being assessed by my Department at present, although, in the case of the DART, the capacity of the system is currently being increased.

In addition, the Railway Procurement Agency has submitted to my Department a detailed business case for a metro-based transit system serving north Dublin and is advancing plans for extension of the Luas to the docklands and Cherrywood. The Department is awaiting business plans from the RPA in order to assist in its evaluation of both Luas extensions. The RPA has also considered a preliminary analysis of the feasibility and cost of linking both Luas lines in the city centre and a more detailed proposal is now being prepared for consideration by the RPA board before its submission to my Department.

Overall, these various proposals are being considered in the context of the developing needs of public transport in the greater Dublin area, the framework outlined in the Dublin Transportation Office's "Platform for Change", the recently adopted regional planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area and the extended ten year multi-annual capital investment envelope for transport announced by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement. These offer a great opportunity to plan the future transport needs of Dublin and the rest of the country.

Does the Minister accept that the existing rail system in the Dublin area is close to capacity? The Iarnród Éireann plan is not an optional matter, we must go ahead with its development plan if we are to continue to provide additional capacity in the rail area. Its plan for an interconnector links Connolly and Spencer Dock with Heuston Station via St. Stephen's Green, the most sensible route because it provides additional capacity on all lines and links the two Luas lines.

It was strange that one of the first announcements the Minister made when he came to office was that it was his intention to link the two Luas lines. In the context of the possibility that the interconnector will go ahead, it does not make sense to spend a substantial amount in the short-term on linking the two lines by extension to the Luas. It makes more sense to implement the full interconnector rail plan that will provide the critical link between the two Luas lines.

The plans submitted by Irish Rail are exciting, valuable and deliver in terms of capacity of movement of people around Dublin. They form a backdrop to all of the other plans and, equally, what is already in place.

We have almost reached capacity on Irish Rail, particularly trying to get into Dublin. The interconnector that Irish Rail proposed has merit, as do the other proposals. A ten year plan and funding envelope are necessary to create what we need. I do not want to work on a piecemeal basis, where I talk about one project at a time to the exclusion of everything else.

That is what happened with Luas.

I used the connection of the two Luas lines as an illustrative backdrop about interconnectivity in the various modes of public transport. Extraordinarily, people in the media decided if the two Luas lines were connected, there would be no metro. The connection between the two issues is beyond me, they are completely separate and I want to get away from that sort of talk.

The Irish Rail proposals make a valuable contribution and are worthy of serious consideration. There are other projects and plans and it is my job to link them in the best possible way to secure an outcome where in ten years we will have a completely different transport infrastructure in Dublin. The ten year envelope presents a huge opportunity for transport. Instead of building one project now and in 2010 deciding to do another and going through another five years planning, we can do a great deal now. We must cost the projects to secure value for money in terms of passenger use, connection and function for each of the different modes. I want to ensure Dublin Bus, Luas, DART, Irish Rail and RPA projects all fit into this so the picture is clear for everyone.

The concern about the Minister's proposal to link the Luas lines was based on the fact that the northside of Dublin has completely lost out on any new rail initiative. Most of us were horrified that the Department would consider doing something else on the southside of the city without first putting an initiative in place on the northside, as the Minister of State, Deputy Callely, would agree.

After the Minister's answer, I am still no clearer about his intentions. Does he accept that it makes sense to consider the plan from Iarnród Éireann and decide what he will do on that before he starts to fly kites on the possibility of linking the two Luas lines? This will provide the link if he goes ahead with it. How long will it take to make a decision on this?

I am not going to consider the Irish Rail plans in isolation from everything else. It is the wrong thing to do. We have been doing things on a project by project basis for the last five years and I want to pull everything together.

The Minister dropped one link for a better one and then dropped the better one as well.

I have already spent hours looking at these with officials and experts. I am asking the hard questions about where this connects to which element, how it all works if x, y and z are done and what capacity will be delivered into the system. Now we have the envelop in place it is possible to do this.

As someone who is not from Dublin, it strikes me as extraordinary that all of the main public transport developments have been on the southside, particularly when the Taoiseach is from north Dublin. It is a sign of his generosity to the southside but I am conscious of the need for a transport solution for north Dublin.

When will the Minister make a decision?

I hope to decide in the next few months because I want to cost it.

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