Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 15 Feb 2005

Vol. 597 No. 5

Priority Questions.

State Airports.

Olivia Mitchell

Question:

90 Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Transport the reason a second deadline on the future of Aer Lingus has been passed without a decision on the future strategic development of the State airline having been taken; the further reason a decision on a proposal for a second terminal at Dublin Airport has not yet been taken; the obstacles which are preventing these critical decisions from being taken; when these decisions will be made and announced; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5046/05]

Paudge Connolly

Question:

92 Mr. Connolly asked the Minister for Transport his view on the provision of a second air terminal to provide for increased traffic at Dublin Airport; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [4897/05]

Minister for Transport (Mr. Cullen)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 90 and 92 together.

As regards the future of Aer Lingus, I reject any claims that there has been a delay on the part of Government to progress the matter. It is important that any decisions we reach about the company's future are correct and take account of the nature of the sector, the company business model, the needs of the economy and the views of stakeholders. In that context, as the House is aware, the Cabinet sub-committee and the Government considered the future of Aer Lingus in December last. Arising from that consideration, it was decided, in line with the terms of Sustaining Progress, to initiate a process of consultation with ICTU to assist in reaching an understanding on the airline's future funding requirements. In that regard, I met representatives of ICTU on 16 December 2004. Since then there has been intensive engagement between Aer Lingus and ICTU's financial advisers on the issue and I expect the process to conclude very shortly. When the process with ICTU is completed, I will reflect on its outcome in consultation with ICTU prior to making a further submission to Government on the future of Aer Lingus.

On the second terminal issue, it is the policy of the Government to encourage as wide a range as possible of reliable, regular and competitive air services to and from Ireland. The central tenet of this policy is the belief that a strong, competitive and efficient network of air links is vitally important for developing our trade and tourism sectors, particularly having regard to our island status and peripheral location.

Passenger traffic through Dublin Airport is forecast to grow from last year's level of more than 17 million passengers to 30 million by approximately 2018. New infrastructure capacity and facilities, both airside and landside and including further terminal capacity, will clearly be needed to cater for this growth. The issue at this point is how best to provide that additional capacity to meet passenger growth.

The programme for Government includes a commitment to examine proposals for a new independent terminal at the airport and to progress such proposals if the evidence suggests that such a terminal will deliver significant benefits. A report in 2003 by a panel of experts chaired by Mr. Paddy Mullarkey assessed the independent terminal concept taking account of 13 "expressions of interest" submitted to my Department on the development of an independent, competing terminal at Dublin Airport.

I recognise that an early decision is desirable in respect of this matter so that, regardless of how it is provided, adequate terminal capacity will be in place at Dublin Airport when required to meet the growth in passenger traffic. I am in the process of finalising proposals which I will bring to Government shortly. My objective in putting proposals to Government will be to ensure the provision and operation of terminal capacity on an efficient and cost-effective basis.

Ms O. Mitchell

Does the Minister accept the Government's treatment of Aer Lingus is inexcusable at this stage? It was the injudicious remarks of the Minister for State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, when he said there was no urgency for a decision, which precipitated the loss of the senior management at Aer Lingus and which now means that effectively very few options remain open for the restructuring and refinancing of the company. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Cullen, promised a decision before Christmas. At Christmas he promised there would definitely be one before January, and still there is no decision.

Is the Minister aware that recently at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Transport, the lame duck chairman of Aer Lingus said the company must have a decision on financing early in the first half of this year. Is that decision going to be made by the Government and when is it going to be made? Negotiations with Airbus and Boeing have dragged on. The critical moment approaches when an order must be placed. Where is the money to come from? Aer Lingus is being greatly disadvantaged as a result of the way it is being treated by Government and decisions must be made. I believe the Minister accepts that, but why are they not being made? What are the barriers in the way of making a decision? Is there tension within Cabinet or what is going on? Is the Taoiseach afraid to upset someone? Why has no decision been made?

Mr. Cullen

I thank the Deputy for her questions, but I disagree with the basis of what she has said. The reason for the three executives leaving the company is a matter for themselves. As I have said before, they did——

Ms O. Mitchell

They were told no decision was going to be made, particularly by the Minister of State.

Mr. Cullen

I had met them shortly before they decided to leave the company. I was quite surprised, as was everyone else, that they did, particularly on the basis of what I had to say to them. However, that is history and it is over and done with. By the way, I certainly do not accept that the current acting executive chairman of Aer Lingus is a lame duck. I want to emphasise my——

Ms O. Mitchell

Perhaps the Minister does not understand the meaning of the term "lame duck". It means somebody whose term is over and who is due to leave.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is entitled to answer questions, without interruption.

Mr. Cullen

I want my thanks to the current acting chairman, who is doing a tremendous job, to be recorded. He has certainly garnered the respect of all involved in Dublin Airport for his efforts on this matter.

Ms O. Mitchell

I am not disputing that, but he is on his way out the door.

Mr. Cullen

That has not been decided.

Ms O. Mitchell

His term is up. He is there on a temporary basis.

Mr. Cullen

That has not been decided. There is a long way from someone who is in a position of acting chairman——

Ms O. Mitchell

Why is he arguing with the reality?

Mr. Cullen

No, I am not arguing with the Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must allow the Minister to answer.

Ms O. Mitchell

When will the Minister make a decision on the funding of Aer Lingus?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall has also submitted questions on this issue and she is entitled to ask a supplementary. I would prefer if the Minister did not answer questions submitted by way of interruptions.

Mr. Cullen

The Deputy is asking me straight questions based on her assertions in the three points she has made. I disagree with her; that is all. My role here is to answer questions. I do not accept for a minute that the current acting chairman is a lame duck. That is a nonsensical statement.

Ms O. Mitchell

It is a statement of fact that the acting chairman is a lame duck.

Mr. Cullen

He is doing a tremendous job——

Ms O. Mitchell

Does the Minister understand the meaning of the term?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Olivia Mitchell should obey the Chair. We want an orderly Question Time and it is not appropriate to interrupt the Minister constantly.

Mr. Cullen

I have met him on numerous occasions. I know from my engagement with many different stakeholders involved in Aer Lingus, that they are equally confident of his ability and grateful to have someone of his stature, knowledge and standing-——

Ms O. Mitchell

I have confidence in his ability, but he is not going to be there for long.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Olivia Mitchell please desist from interrupting?

Mr. Cullen

——-driving this agenda forward. I said I would bring the matter to Government before Christmas. I did and told the Deputy and others afterwards that because of the Sustaining Progress arrangements, I would immediately engage with the stakeholders involved in the national wage agreement and with the ICTU in particular. I have done that. There has been considerable engagement, both at my level and between officials. The ICTU has its own experts reviewing the financial situation. I have told the Deputy that I expect that process to be completed shortly. I want to go to Government on the issue of Aer Lingus and to conclude it quickly. However, I want to do it by way of partnership involving the sharing of information and knowledge so that no stakeholder involved in the process feels excluded from knowing the basis on which a decision is being made.

As regards the terminal, I am happy to inform the Deputy and the House that there has been excellent engagement on this issue both at my level and through officials over recent weeks and months. I fully accept, as does the Government, that clarity and decision needs to be made immediately on the terminal issue. The numbers clearly indicate we must have a second terminal at Dublin Airport. I want to see that decision and I expect to go to Government shortly with my proposals. We are coming to a conclusion on the matter with all the stakeholders.

Mr. Connolly

To some extent the Minister has answered my question, but not quite all of it. Does he agree that numbers are growing at an alarming rate at Dublin Airport? In 2004, 17.4 million passengers went through the airport, an increase of 8% on the previous year and 350% on 1990 when the figure was approximately five million. Dublin has one of the fastest growing airports in Europe. There are two solutions. I am glad that the Minister agrees a second terminal is needed while indicating it may be coming on stream shortly.

Has the Government considered opening the airport at Baldonnel to commercial or passenger traffic. That would take much of the pressure off the north side of County Dublin. It is adjacent to the M50 motorway and it would make sense. Rather than channelling 17.5 million passengers through north County Dublin every year, it would make much sense to consider opening Baldonnel to commercial traffic.

If a second terminal is opened at Dublin Airport, will it be an independently owned airport or a mixture of State and private ownership?

Mr. Cullen

As the Deputy has said, the numbers are growing massively. That is a mark of the economy's success in terms of trade and tourism. I have not considered the issue of Baldonnel at this stage. My focus has exclusively been on expanding capacity at Dublin Airport by providing a second terminal. I believe, as does the Government, that it is vital for future economic development. Whatever happens with other airports will be a matter for consideration later. I am not considering that issue at the moment, rather I am specifically considering——

Mr. Connolly

Is the Minister ruling out Baldonnel?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister must not be interrupted.

Mr. Cullen

I have not considered it at this stage. I am focused entirely on the issue of providing the second terminal. I hope to be in a position to go to Government shortly to sign off on that issue.

Ms O. Mitchell

On the question of the terminal, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, announced that a decision would be made on the second terminal. The Minister mentioned the possibility of a competing terminal. Is it possible, given the present structure of the Dublin Airport Authority which provides not only a terminal but also other services, to have real competition where another terminal competes with the existing one which also provides these shared services? Is it not leaving one of them in a dominant position? Is it possible to have that type of competition arrangement and has the hiving off of the terminal from the Dublin Airport Authority been considered?

Mr. Cullen

The Deputy raises an important question. Clearly, it is an important issue to be considered in the context of the infrastructure at Dublin Airport and how an airport functions. From the point of view of the passengers and the 90 airlines using the airport, we want the most competitive and cost-efficient terminals, including the existing one. That forms part of the consideration on how we ensure that.

Rail Network.

Róisín Shortall

Question:

91 Ms Shortall asked the Minister for Transport his views on the optimum manner of providing a rail link to Dublin Airport; and when he expects to make proposals to Cabinet on this. [5093/05]

Olivia Mitchell

Question:

93 Ms O. Mitchell asked the Minister for Transport the proposals which exist to provide a commuter rail service to Dublin’s northside and to Dublin Airport; if he remains committed to the development of a metro from Dublin city centre either to the airport or to Swords; his views on a metro service for this area; his preferred alternative; if alternatives are currently being advanced by his Department in order to develop a rail connection for Dublin’s northside; if not, the reason therefore; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5047/05]

Mr. Cullen

I propose to take Question Nos. 91 and 93 together.

The programme for Government contains a specific commitment to develop a metro for Dublin with a link to Dublin Airport. The Railway Procurement Agency has submitted to my Department a detailed business case for a metro from the city centre to Dublin Airport while Iarnród Éireann submitted proposals last July for an integrated rail network in the greater Dublin area. These proposals include the electrification of the Kildare, northern and Maynooth lines, a DART service to the airport off the northern line and an interconnector tunnel linking Heuston Station to the docklands to enable greater integration of rail services.

I expect to put proposals to Government in the near future for a ten year transport investment framework in the light of the announcement by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement of agreement in principle to a ten year capital investment envelope for transport. This plan will set out a comprehensive investment strategy for the greater Dublin area within the policy framework established by the document published by the Dublin Transportation Office, entitled A Platform for Change, and will take account of the proposals referred to above.

Ms Shortall

I was not looking for a history lesson. We all know what proposals are there. I asked for the Minister's thinking on the proposal. What does he believe is the best way of serving the northside and the airport in particular? Does the Minister accept that the northside has lost out badly in transport infrastructure, in spite of having a northside Taoiseach? Will the Minister give priority to serving the northside and Dublin Airport? What is his current thinking on the alternative proposals? On the one hand, there is the prospect of having a metro to the airport, serving Ballymun en route. On the other hand, there is a proposal by Irish Rail to take a spur off the DART line. When is the Minister likely to bring firm proposals to the Government?

Mr. Cullen

I agree with the Deputy. There is no doubt that north Dublin is in serious need of a transport solution. I dislike the way it is often presented as an airport solution, because that is not the full capacity of what we should be delivering. There is the issue of the population base and the location of the metro, as well as the opening of further land for housing development. We need a transport solution for north Dublin.

This ten year envelope changes the perspective that I can bring to transport solutions for Dublin and the rest of the country. That is why the Minister for Finance announced this in his budget speech. The issues outlined in my response and those raised by the Deputy are on the desk. I want to make sure we pick the best of everything, but not in isolation. There has to be connectivity between all of the elements. We have to look at the connectivity between central Dublin, its suburbs and surrounding towns like Kildare, Maynooth and Drogheda. The different solutions, such as the metro, the interconnector and electrification of the lines, are all on the table.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

They have been on the table for five years.

Mr. Cullen

If Deputy Ryan was in charge, they would be sitting there for the rest of his life. I want to conclude this. Since the budget speech, we have been involved in putting these solutions on the table. I also want to have real costings.

Ms Shortall

What does the Minister mean when he says that they have been involved in putting these things on the table? They already are on the table.

Mr. Cullen

That is what I am saying. They are on the table.

Ms Shortall

What is needed is decision making.

Mr. Cullen

I will not come into this House with a few populist items. I want a cohesive solution to be presented in totality, which can bring——

Ms O. Mitchell

That was called A Platform for Change. The Minister's party ran for election on it.

Mr. Cullen

——a marrying of both public and private transport initiatives to get the best value for the public. It will bring safety benefits as well as a modal shift.

Ms Shortall

When is he likely to go to Government with it?

Mr. Cullen

I expect to go to the Cabinet sub-committee on this issue next month.

Ms O. Mitchell

The former Minister with responsibility for public transport, Senator O'Rourke, promised us a metro seven years ago. She abandoned a Luas line for the northside in favour of an all-singing, all-dancing metro, saying we would all be riding on it within seven years. We have now lost seven years of planning, while costs have escalated and traffic has got worse. The current Minister is telling us that it is all on the table. The Government went to the electorate with A Platform for Change, which was a lovely map of everything that was going to be built in Dublin. We still have no evidence that any of it is anything other than a figment of the imagination. The Taoiseach stated two weeks ago that the metro was not going to happen as it was too costly. What has happened in the last couple of weeks that the Minister's trusty lieutenant was able to announce yesterday that the metro was going to go ahead? Will it happen? Has a decision been made? If a metro is not to be developed, then what will be developed? We have lost seven years of planning. We have already spent €8 million on establishing the feasibility of a metro. Is it feasible? The Taoiseach stated that it was not. Could we spend the same money building five Luas lines? When will we get a decision? We have had decisions in the past. Do they mean anything when this Minister makes them? Can he give us a timeframe for when this will be built if the decision is to be made?

Mr. Cullen

The timeframe will be short. The ten year envelope was only announced in the budget speech in December. I have been involved in intensive preparation and I intend to go to Government at the first available meeting in March to put all these proposals before it. That is a reasonably short timeframe in respect of my tenure in office.

Ms O. Mitchell

It did not all start when this Minister assumed office. It started seven years ago when the promise was made on a metro. Where is it?

Mr. Cullen

If the Deputy wants me to answer the question, then I will do so. Does the proposal of the development of the metro and the many other proposals present solutions for north Dublin? The answer is that they do. However, I want to get the best solution, which is that which marries all of the different proposals together. We do not want to cherry-pick the sexy metro as a solution to everything. There are issues relating to interconnectivity with Dublin, for the DART and the lines from Maynooth, Kildare, Drogheda and so on. There are issues relating to capacity on the existing lines and stations. When I announce these proposals on behalf of the Government, I will face Opposition Deputies who will ask these questions. I want to make sure that my proposals can be delivered and are not idealistic.

I accept what the Deputy said about my Minister of State. I am blessed to have such an enthusiastic Minister of State. His commitment sometimes overruns with enthusiasm. Some of his recent pronouncements to the Fourth Estate are just guess work and are not based on any fact. I am sure he will join with me in supporting our proposals enthusiastically when they are made public.

Ms Shortall

Did he steal the Minister's thunder? We look forward to an early decision. The Minister is answering for his two predecessors who dragged their heels on transport initiatives in the Dublin area. What is the status of the commitment in the programme for Government to provide a full metro serving the airport? The Minister seems to be indicating he is still considering the possibility of a metro. The Taoiseach has stated that it is out of the question. Where does the overall plan for the metro now stand?

Mr. Cullen

That is a key question. I do not claim to be an expert on public transport. However, some of the issues are clear. If one is to provide the best in terms of maximum capacity on a daily basis, then that presents one obvious solution. If one opts for different solutions, one provides different loading capacities, different levels of capacity and different usages.

As I acknowledged at the outset, the Deputy is correct to state that north Dublin has a clear need for significant investment in a transit system. I have publicly stated as much and there is no question about it. It is ironic that the Taoiseach who is from north Dublin has been so generous to the people of south Dublin in terms of the transport solutions which have been provided there. As I tried to explain to the Deputy, it was wrong to present a solution for north Dublin merely as an airport link. Deputies Shortall and Olivia Mitchell have often raised with me issues of spatial planning, capacity, the opening of new land in north Dublin for good quality, good value housing and the need to connect existing residential areas on the northside. One must examine the cost of making such provisions without distorting one's investments in other areas of Dublin and the rest of the country. Many Deputies raise with me the question of the western rail corridor. My aim in the ten-year envelope is to balance all of these competing needs. Clearly, everybody's wish list cannot be fulfilled.

Ms Shortall

Is the Minister saying the metro is dead?

Mr. Cullen

I am saying no such thing until I go to Government early in March to address the Cabinet sub-committee. I will bring proposals to Government which will be considered and, subsequently, made public.

The ten-year envelope changes the way we can deliver all infrastructure. One can provide for a great deal of parallel development. Where necessary, one can go straight to the planning, tender, design or construction stage. One can set a number of projects in train at the same time though they will be completed at different times. Having to wait until one project is completed before starting the next has prevented us from providing the level of infrastructure required. The new procedures change the basis on which we can move forward in public and road transport provision with a mixture of investment from the State and private sector.

Road Network.

Eamon Ryan

Question:

94 Mr. Eamon Ryan asked the Minister for Transport the role his Department will play in the possible planning of new orbital motorways around Dublin; the work which has been done to set out the design, cost and possible timescale for the building of such roads; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5090/05]

Mr. Cullen

I assume the Deputy's question refers to the concept of a Dublin outer orbital route. Strategic Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin Area 1999 and the Dublin Transportation Office document, Platform for Change 2000, identified a possible need for a Dublin outer orbital route to link Drogheda, Navan and Naas. More recently, Regional Planning Guidelines for the Greater Dublin Area 2004 made provision for the development of such a route in the medium to long term on the basis that the centres in question would be strengthened by the provision of decent links which do not pass through the Dublin city area.

A 2001 strategic study commissioned by the NRA concluded that a Dublin outer orbital route had significant merit and was feasible on engineering and environmental grounds. Apart from identifying a possible corridor for an outer orbital, the 2001 report did not consider route options, appropriate road type and costs as it constituted simply a high-level strategic study of the concept. Detailed consideration of these and other issues, including spatial planning, land use, environmental impact and the appropriate type and class of road to be provided, will be the subject of further studies.

I have asked the NRA to carry out these further studies and consider the proposed route as part of future road infrastructure development plans. The NRA will take into account in its deliberations the national spatial strategy, regional planning guidelines and the planning and traffic implications of the route for greater Dublin and neighbouring regions. The proposal will also be considered in the context of the ten-year transport investment framework being prepared within my Department.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

History tells us that if we ask the NRA whether it is a good idea to build a road, it will inevitably say "Yes". As it is a road building agency, its function is to build roads. The Minister's Department should plan transport in this city. I contend we have no planning of a proper transport system for the city as evidenced by the fact that much as one might think of the southside as the land of milk and honey, it does not work because the road system the Government has put in place does not function. I do not want to know what the NRA's answer to a question would be because I know what it would say. I want to know when the Minister's Department will begin to provide joined-up thinking in transport and make a decision as to whether public transport or yet more roads will provide a solution which works.

Does the Minister agree that the plan to widen the M50 to an eight-lane highway will not work, as the Taoiseach acknowledges? Road building cannot solve the transport problems of this city as traffic merely increases as the capacity of a road expands. When will we learn that lesson and begin to invest in public transport instead of roads? When will we stop allowing the National Roads Authority to set the country's transport policy?

Mr. Cullen

I am not sure what question the Deputy is putting.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

When will the Government plan transport?

Mr. Cullen

Clearly, he has not listened for the last half hour to the debate between the other Deputies and me.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

I was embarrassed listening to it.

Mr. Cullen

The debate centred on the provision of public transport in and around the Dublin area.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

It was nothing but waffle.

Mr. Cullen

If the Deputy's friends and colleagues did not hold up every development in the country, particularly the M50, we might be much further down the road to satisfying the needs of the public.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

The Minister is holding up the metro and the public transport provision which would solve the problem.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order please.

Mr. Cullen

I reject fully Deputy Eamon Ryan's assertion that there is a lack of proper thinking. Clearly, there is very good thinking in this area in which regard I acknowledge the bodies engaged in the process with me and my departmental officials.

Ms Shortall

In that case, why is there traffic gridlock?

Mr. Cullen

There is no question that it is evidence of the growth of the economy in the last few years.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

It is the car-based transport system.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order please.

Mr. Cullen

No country could have provided the level of infrastructure Ireland required due to the pace and suddenness of the growth in the economy.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

Zurich, Barcelona, Madrid and Helsinki did.

Mr. Cullen

The only thing that is sinking is the Deputy and his colleagues. If they would sink out of the way and let us get on with building the roads and putting in the bus and rail network, we would all be in a much better position. I hope that when we announce the ten-year package which will contain a tremendous solution for Dublin and many other parts of the country, the Green Party will for once be supportive of the investment.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

What happens to the ten-year fairytale if the Government is not re-elected, something to which we all look forward? What possible validity can a ten-year plan have when it requires the imprimatur of the people to decide who will be in Government in ten years time? Does the Minister believe there is a need for a greater Dublin transport and planning authority to implement the joined-up thinking to which he referred but which the Government has never addressed?

The Minister said that before he could present a project to Cabinet, he had to ensure it was robust and would work. Why is he, his Department and the NRA presenting a project to widen the M50 which the NRA and everyone else acknowledges will not work? Why does the Minister contend that public transport projects cannot be presented until every detail has been examined while it is full steam ahead in the area of roads which are prioritised in every instance whether or not they are expected to work? It does not seem to matter that traffic modelling demonstrates there will be absolute chaos on the M50. The solution is another orbital road while the regional planning guidelines refer to a further orbital road beyond that one. When will the Government reject road building solutions and begin to fund public transport? It should be this year rather than in ten years time.

Mr. Cullen

I question what solutions the Deputy has for transport.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

The metro, a rail interconnector, two or three more Luas lines and the western rail corridor.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please allow the Minister to speak.

Mr. Cullen

He does not want any roads and does not believe in any investment in public transport. Clearly, the Green Party has no interest in Platform for Change 2000, the Dublin Transportation Office, Iarnród Éireann or the RPA. All of the bodies which have proposals on the table will exist irrespective of who is in Government to work with them.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

All I have heard is waffle about them for years.

Mr. Cullen

The Green Party's only platform is to object to anything being done in the name of transport. When it comes to making decisions, the Green Party is sadly lacking.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

We promoted the Luas for years before the Government. The Minister's comments are nothing but waffle.