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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Feb 2005

Vol. 598 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that at a time of great sensitivity in respect of the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process, it is fundamentally important that the Government of which he is Taoiseach should speak with one voice on these matters. On two occasions in the recent past I asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform whether he was prepared to publish the names of the people he believed to be members of the provisional IRA army council. The Minister said that was not appropriate. However, last weekend on a Sunday morning chat show he chose to name three individuals as being members of the army council of the Provisional IRA. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Taoiseach did not go that far and said they did not have the extent of evidence available from security briefings that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has.

Does the Taoiseach share the view of a Fianna Fáil councillor who yesterday called for the resignation of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell? Is that Fianna Fáil policy? Is there now a split within the Government, which is essentially causing a sideshow and an unwarranted distraction from focusing on the main issue, which is the web of criminality recently exposed by Garda Commissioner Conroy and his gardaí, which seems to reach right to the inner sanctums of Irish business and which affects the economy and goes to the heart of our democratic system?

Does the Taoiseach believe it would be appropriate for him to be fully briefed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when he speaks on issues such as this on behalf of Government? Does the Taoiseach not believe it is fundamental that the Government speaks with one voice? These matters have of course been denied by the Sinn Féin leadership, who seem to again follow the old Sinn Féin motto that those who know do not tell and those who tell do not know. What is the position of the Government in respect of this matter?

Are they or are they not?

As I have mentioned a number of times outside the House and I repeat it inside the House, there are no differences between the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and me on this issue whatsoever. I get detailed briefings on security issues, but they are broad briefings. I do not get detailed intelligence reports every day like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform receives, nor do I or have I ever looked for the detailed security briefs from different regions of the Garda and the kind of information the Minister gets.

Deputy Kenny is right, but that is a sideshow. It is really nothing to do with the main matter. I am the one who is at least credited with the phrase of Sinn Féin and the IRA being opposite sides of the one coin. Who attends meetings and what is its formation have nothing to do with the issues. I agree fully with that point. The fundamental issue here is that we are trying to move to get a clear position on three questions. We have made considerable progress on perhaps two of those questions. The fundamental issues are the putting arms beyond use — decommissioning; the issue of criminality in all its respects; and the end of paramilitarism. Who is or is not in some group is not the issue. All the Government's attention and efforts are to reach that position.

As I have said many times the reason for that is simple. We have spent two full years on this phase of the peace process. In all that has happened in recent weeks, nobody should forget the enormous strides that have been made in all the other phases of the peace process. However, since the end of 2002 we have moved to the phase of acts of completion for the outstanding issues. That is the phase we have been in. We made substantial progress in March 2003, but failed because of these issues. At the end of 2003 we made progress, but failed again because of these issues. Again in 2004 we failed because of these issues and some other issues — the clarity around decommissioning.

We are trying to bring an end to this phase. I will restate the reason for this as it cannot be said often enough. We cannot implement the wish of the people, which is the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement because we cannot get trust and confidence on the part of all the parties, never mind the two Governments, to move forward until we get clarity on these issues. This is why it is so important. This is the fundamental issue. Anything else is a sideshow. When we met Sinn Féin representatives some weeks ago we made these points clear to them. We are awaiting a response on those points and I hope we will be able to move on successfully when we get those responses. We have not got them as yet.

The Taoiseach did not respond to the question as to whether his party shared the view of some of his councillors about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. In recent days, we have heard some pious pronouncements from members of the Sinn Féin Party about republicanism and criminality. It has been suggested that Sinn Féin and its supporters have no part in any criminal activity. Such statements have been made by the same people who denied responsibility for the murder of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, denied any involvement in the Northern Bank raid and refused to agree that the abduction and execution of Jean McConville was a crime.

I listened to the sisters of Robert McCartney, who was murdered in Belfast recently, speaking on RTE radio this morning. Their fundamental point was that comments made on radio and television and in newspapers by the leadership of Sinn Féin, principally that party's president, Mr. Gerry Adams, have no impact on the ground, because "that is the way they are". I listened yesterday to Deputy Ó Caoláin, who made a different kind of speech in the presence of the Tánaiste. Does the Taoiseach agree that if Deputy Ó Caoláin and his party, particularly his party's president, want to make hard decisions and to dissociate themselves from criminality, they could in the first instance speak to the IRA person in Belfast of republican leanings who issued the instruction to murder Robert McCartney, who was an innocent man? If Sinn Féin wants to demonstrate that it is serious about the ways of democracy and the path of peace, it should take the hard decision. Does the Taoiseach share the view that Sinn Féin should at least dissociate itself from the killers of Robert McCartney, for example by expelling them from the republican movement?

Will the Taoiseach confirm that a blind eye was turned to criminality in this jurisdiction in recent years, as the Minister for Defence stated the other night? Has that eye been opened and is it now fully focused? Will the full resources of the State, which are available to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Commissioner, be used to stamp out criminality in this jurisdiction, in all its forms? Fine Gael would support such action.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Kenny asked me three questions. I dissociate myself totally from any derogatory remarks about the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made by any Fianna Fáil councillor.

Will the Taoiseach expel the person?

It is obvious that the person in question does not know what she is talking about.

Hear, hear.

She spoke about the matter at length.

I am interested to hear the Taoiseach's comments.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and I have spent more hours working on these issues than we would want, particularly over the last two years. I recall weekends when we sat around, mostly waiting for people to get back to us on certain issues. I think we spent approximately 30 hours working on these issues, waiting for briefing notes, etc., over the course of one weekend, during one of the failed attempts to reach agreement. I could mention many other things, but there is no point in going into them. Many people who have spoken about the peace process in recent days are so badly informed about it that it is upsetting to listen to them. I would rather leave such things go, however, because the people in question are not involved in the detail and do not understand all aspects of the matter.

The second issue raised by Deputy Kenny was a comment made by the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea. The Minister's statement was correct, of course. All such issues were mentioned in paragraph 11 of the joint declaration because acts of criminality were ongoing at that time. The British Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, and I said such issues would have to be dealt with when we spelt out in detail the necessary acts of completion at the end of 2002. Quite frankly, our immediate concern at that time was to see an end to the daily killings, bombings and attacks.

We should not forget we have seen the end of a significant number of problems, which I hope will never come back again. It is too easy for people to say that it has all been a waste of time. I heard somebody say that the other day, but it is obvious that the person in question does not remember how bad it was in the past. People need to take stock and to consider what it was like. Deputy Kenny is right — we have to finish the process. One cannot go on, ten years on. We are now talking about criminality and fraud. People are trying to raise and use money that was gained through illegal activity for political purposes. We want to bring an end to such issues. That is the position.

Deputy Kenny also spoke about the brave family of Robert McCartney, some members of which are in Dublin today. The Minister will do all he can to help them. They have suffered in the worst possible way at the hands of those engaged in thuggery and criminality — they have lost a family member to murder. We have to try to help them in every way we can.

I was not in the House yesterday when Deputy Ó Caoláin made his point. I wish to state clearly that we are listening closely to the comments of Sinn Féin's representatives. We are waiting for a response to a meeting attended by the Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Justice, Equality and Law Reform some weeks ago. In light of everything that has happened, I think Sinn Féin will understand if we reserve judgment. Its members have to accept that their words cannot easily be accepted at face value. It will take much more than words to rebuild trust, but we are listening. We all know what must be done. We all know what we want Sinn Féin and the IRA to do. Their actions have to be capable of being understood in clear terms by the people of this island. We have said we want no ambiguity, no fudge and no messing. Let us be straight and let us get to the bottom line.

I welcome what Deputy Ó Caoláin said yesterday, but what we want and what must happen is an end to paramilitary and criminal activity by the IRA and the decommissioning of IRA arms. We can try to restart the process if that is achieved. We will not be able to do so if that is not achieved. I do not want to make the same points every day, but I reiterate that we have to achieve the aims I have mentioned. Having received a security briefing yesterday, however, I am aware that these aims are not being achieved, unfortunately. In effect, large amounts of money are being hauled around the Republic of Ireland by various people. It is being laundered for the Provisional IRA. That is what we saw last week. I heard what the Deputy said yesterday. We have to reach a position from which we can move on. That is all I want to achieve. I am not interested in arguing about Sinn Féin's mandate or demonising that party — I just want to make progress and to get these things finished.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

In the last two years — it is almost March again — I have been doing almost nothing other than trying to deal with this. That is not a good idea for me or the Government. We need to get to an end to this. Everyone in this country understands what the Ministers, Deputies Dermot Ahern, Cowen and McDowell, and I have been doing for the last two years. They all understand it now. We should just get on with it. It is not impossible to do it. Deputy Ó Caoláin and I know the relevant group of people. It is not rocket science to get to an end to this. If we can move on, we can move on. If we move backwards, that would be terrible for the entire island. I want to move forward. If Sinn Féin is saying it wants to move forward, we should try to do so.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Will the Taoiseach state more clearly the level of credibility he attaches to Deputy Ó Caoláin's statement yesterday that "Sinn Féin is a party that rejects criminality of any kind"? Can the Taoiseach provide clarity in that regard? I acknowledge the statement and welcome it in so far as it goes, but I do not know what credibility to attach to it. Given that Sinn Féin's members cannot acknowledge that the murders of Jean McConville, Tom Oliver and Detective Garda Jerry McCabe were crimes, it seems that serious difficulties must attach to any statement of the kind made yesterday by Deputy Ó Caoláin. As the republican movement does not believe that any criminal act carried out in the course of its "duty" is a crime, it seems our difficulty is that we are on two different planets. Therefore, we do not know whether any credibility can be attached to Deputy Ó Caoláin's statement.

The Taoiseach has said that he, Deputy McDowell and the rest of the members of the Government are ad idem and of one mind about this matter, and that everybody knows now what he has been concerned about for the last two years. It seems, however, that everybody does not know that. If one traces back the statements, one will realise that it is not only now that there are contradictions within Government but that there have been inconsistencies regarding the criminality issue over the months leading up to 8 December. Rather than throwing our hands up in horror over the failed peace process, we should regard it is good that some of the ambiguity that surrounded it is now out it the open. It seems good that criminality is now the focus of debate among ordinary people in this jurisdiction and, one suspects, in Northern Ireland. That is a positive development. If it brings the Sinn Féin leadership to its senses, so much the better. However, I do not see the merit in the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, fully supporting the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, on Sunday and issuing a statement on Monday night censuring him over what he said in public.

The Government needs to speak with one voice but this is not happening. It seems that we do not want to exclude anyone to the point where we are again prepared to fudge. We did not exclude anyone, the republican movement excluded itself by its actions. As I stated yesterday, I do not support the Taoiseach's view that exclusion brought us 30 years of murder and mayhem. Thirty years of murder and mayhem brought us exclusion.

I do not want to get into political points but I hope Deputy Rabbitte is not saying Government confusion was responsible for the bank robbery by way of nit-picking statements made by the Government over the course of two years, thus trying to find contradictions suggesting it has changed its line. The Government has been at one for years on this issue. I remind Members of the House, including Deputy Rabbitte, that we worked on the draft of the joint declaration in 2001. It was in 2001 when, at Weston Park, we had come to what was in paragraph 11, which I think was published in 2002. Paragraph 11 informed the entire discussion. The Deputy is correct that people were not really interested in paragraph 11. I made many speeches in Northern Ireland and paragraph 11 was appearing on page 18. In recent weeks it has been appearing on page 1, but I should not be blamed for that.

In March 2003, October 2003 and from October 2004 to December 2004, the discussion was on paragraph 11. Certainly from September 2004 — colleagues can correct me if I am wrong — we focused on one sentence. We spoke for weeks about the rights and safety of others and the issue of criminality. Nothing else was being discussed at the time. Therefore, the criminality issue was central to why we did not complete the issues in spring and autumn of 2003 and in 2004. That is the position.

On yesterday's comments and the question asked by Deputy Rabbitte, we are listening very closely to what Sinn Féin is saying. We have asked Sinn Féin in the frankest terms to reflect on its position. I have repeated this morning, in a reply to Deputy Kenny, the nature of the issues in question, namely, that there be an end to paramilitary and criminal activity by the IRA and decommissioning of its weapons. We need deeds as well as words. Like the Deputy, I obviously welcome what was said yesterday but we must see these words transferred into implementation and a real act. We are not seeing this at present and have not done so in recent weeks. A changed position is required.

On the last point, Deputy Rabbitte should note that we are trying to deal with a very serious issue. His statement that the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, rebuked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell, is just nonsense. I have heard what they have all said and it is not appropriate to take a word here and a word there. A position cannot be determined by doing so. The only difference is that every morning Deputy McDowell, as Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, receives detailed intelligence reports, as do all Ministers responsible for justice.

If I came into the House saying I, as Taoiseach, looked at such reports every day, I know what Members would say. I was here long enough to remember what they used to say about Taoisigh who used to take an interest in such matters. I do not take those kinds of briefings. I receive from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform briefings on broad issues and assessments on a regular basis. Meetings are held with the Commissioner several times per year, although irregularly, and he gives broad assessments. I am not made aware of every detail, such as who was at a particular meeting. Quite frankly, it does not matter who was at what meeting. What matters is that we know how the system works and the nature of the broad operation. The broad issue is that the leadership of Sinn Féin and the IRA are extremely close. What we want to get done is important and it determines the agenda.

I, too, am long enough here to know that when Taoisigh were being criticised for reading transcripts, it was not concerning the security of the State. I do not want to retrace this territory but the Minister for Foreign Affairs said only a few weeks ago that he foresaw Sinn Féin in Government, probably with Fianna Fáil, sooner than people realised. The Taoiseach stated last weekend that "Sinn Féin could not be excluded from the Belfast Agreement, despite the discovery of the IRA's recent criminality". In fact, paragraph 25 of the Agreement states: "Those who hold office should use only democratic, non-violent means, and those who do not should be excluded or removed from office under these provisions." This is black and white.

Should the acid test of Deputy Ó Caoláin's statement yesterday, which presumably arose from the Sinn Féin executive meeting on Saturday, not be the willingness of the leadership of that party to instruct its members to turn in the killers of Robert McCartney? This should be the acid test if there is to be any credibility attached to the statement. Deputy Kenny has referred to hearing the sisters of Robert McCartney on radio this morning as they described the gruesome, mafia-style killing and the swagger of those bully boys who dominate working class nationalist communities through terror, fear and punishment beatings. I am fearful that we will drift back into a position whereby we do not exclude for the sake of not doing so and engage in the same creative ambiguity and confusion as before. It is important that this issue be clarified once and for all. We should regard this as an opportunity to do so rather than as a betrayal of the peace process.

I do not disagree with Deputy Rabbitte on that point. This is an opportunity, two and a half years on, to bring this phase of the process to an end. We have brought other parts to an end. Let us not forget that. We do not have the kinds of statistics and problems that obtained before, which were all bad news.

The Deputy is correct regarding the McCartney family. There are people who can resolve the McCartney murder very quickly. Not only were these people present at the scene of the crime — this is known — but they also had the audacity to go back to the scene of the crime to sweep the place clean. It is bad enough killing people but to do that is horrendous. It does not add up to people trying to say they were under the influence or something like that. It is unlikely considering the way they acted. I do not believe any of that stuff, and people can help.

I strongly believe that dealing properly with the PSNI is ultimately the only way we will stop who Deputy Rabbitte has described as the bully boys and thugs. We had made a lot of progress in this regard in December. Until there is proper policing in all parts of Northern Ireland, we will continue to have people who can become little heroes in their own areas through engaging in criminal activity. Policing is essential in addressing this.

If at some stage I believe I am wasting my time trying to achieve the inclusive process we thought we had achieved under the Good Friday Agreement, I will be the first to say it. However, I would be very slow to give up eight years' work and I do not want to do so. I do not believe we are at that stage. Yesterday I listened to everybody talking about the past four or five years in the Middle East. Mr. Sharon and Mr. Abbas say there is a chance of having an inclusive process and moving forward after five years of mayhem, killing, and houses being rolled over every day. Now everybody is at one, and the European Union and the United States back the inclusive process. I read about what is happening in Sudan and Darfur, and in the Democratic Republic of Congo where people say they need an inclusive process. It is the same in Uganda, Sri Lanka and all over the world. One must try to get the people who cause problems in to try to change them, otherwise one will not resolve the problems.

For the last decade we have tried to get people in to the process by giving them the time and the chance to do so. Admittedly, it has taken a long time and involved risks. In this House we have all agreed on the things we do not like. I accept that. I am not saying we did not have to bite our tongues. Of course we did. I have admitted as much in replies to questions about murderers getting out of prison. However, there is a chance to complete this project. If people do not do that they will lose an enormous opportunity.

We should not give up. I spoke about this to the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, yesterday. The easiest thing to do would be to go off and deal with another problem. There are always enough problems. I would rather finish this and that is why I believe in an inclusive process.

Does the Taoiseach acknowledge that the great majority of residents of the Short Strand area in Belfast are horrified to have criminal butchers in their midst, hiding under the political banner of provisional republicanism, and that revulsion at the bestial murder of Robert McCartney, and the heroic quest for justice by his family, are challenging in an unprecedented way the insidious control of the IRA in many Catholic areas in Northern Ireland? Does the Taoiseach agree that we must categorise as vacuous doublespeak the words about Robert McCartney's murder by the leaders of republicanism such as Messrs. Kelly, Adams and McGuinness? The reality behind the seemingly sincere words of republican leaders is the screaming silence of the 50 witnesses who are terrified to speak out to bring the murderers to justice because of the intimidation coming from the very associates of those leaders who say they want justice for the family of Robert McCartney.

Every week members of the IRA in Belfast visit medieval barbarities on dysfunctional youths. They claim to know what is going on. It would be extraordinary if the republican leaders did not know exactly who butchered a man in front of 70 people, all the more so since a unit of the IRA was responsible.

Mr. Adams said this morning he has a problem going to the police. Does he have a problem in going to the Short Strand unit of the provisional IRA — call it the local SS unit for short — and demanding that it present itself to justice? According to the McCartney family this morning, Mr. Gerry Kelly refused to call a public meeting in the Short Strand to give the community confidence.

I urge the community, in conjunction with the McCartney family, to convene its own independent mass meeting, give mass protection to the witnesses to this bestial murder, and mobilise community power to break the grip of intimidation and remove the killers from its midst by securing their trial and conviction. Those for whom the Sinn Féin leaders in Northern Ireland claim to speak should themselves speak with their own voices in mass action because it is very clear that they repudiate absolutely this type of barbarity in their communities.

Deputy Joe Higgins is right. I can only add that the names are known. The names of those people involved are freely spoken about. I will not mention names but I have talked to several people who told me who was involved. It is well known; there is no mystery about it. The issue is to get people who were there to co-operate with the PSNI to have these people charged. This recalls other cases that happened a year ago. For example, the Tohill case was a similar incident. There have been interesting developments in that area in the year since but I will not go into them now.

These are the issues which the Minister for Foreign Affairs is discussing with the family of Robert McCartney at the meeting that has just commenced. They are a brave family, who have stood up for their rights and we will give them every support we possibly can.

This case typifies issues which I will not go through again. I have raised several of the issues that Deputy Joe Higgins raised about things that happened to young people. These were regular incidents over the Christmas period, and at other times. They did not happen for many months then they began to occur again.

We must move on from that and the only way to do so is for the two Governments to get unambiguous, straight answers on the issues we have put forward. We need this not only in writing or reports but in action. We know from last year that we can see it in action as there was a total end to such incidents during the negotiating period. They can be stopped. There is no doubt that people have control and authority. I am convinced that people can stop these activities when they want and we can get to that end position.

I think I referred to paragraph 11 in reply to Deputy Rabbitte when of course I should have said paragraph 13 of the joint declaration. That is the one we are talking about and focused on. There are other outstanding issues on which we must make progress but the central one is paragraph 13 which deals with paramilitarism, thuggery and criminality. When we achieve progress on that we can move on.

How genuine are this Government and the British Government in outing criminal intimidation when they tolerated it for so long? Years ago, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform spoke about things he knew happened but we have seen action only recently. The Taoiseach blew the issue out of the water in recent weeks because the political landscape changed.

Calling the murderers of Robert McCartney to account is a matter of justice for him and his family. More than this, it is a test in present circumstances of whether a working class community is allowed to live in an atmosphere where democratic, human and political rights are respected and guaranteed. Bringing these murderers to account also challenges in a very real way the political control of Catholic working class communities by republican paramilitaries. Loyalist paramilitaries visit the same intimidation on Protestant working class communities. The reluctance to dissolve the IRA is not because a resumption of the paramilitary campaign against the British State is contemplated — that disaster ran into the sand long ago. It is retained as an enforcer for the political domination of the republican movement in the Catholic working class communities. It plays the same role as the loyalist paramilitary organisations.

I call on the real power in Northern Ireland, the salt of the earth, working class people to mobilise independently, throw the sectarians aside and in this way deliver justice for Robert McCartney and his family. This will also lay the basis for an alternative society where their real needs are met rather than being subjected to sectarian monsters.

The barbarity of punishment beatings is well-known and this is not the first time we have talked about them. Last year, there was the Tohill case and the previous year people were shot. There have been many cases, and this has even led to suicide among young people who have been threatened. The focus on it arose before now.

That is why paragraph 13 is in the declaration. It is still the outstanding issue. Criminality and bully boy control of an area is not just about sectarianism. It is related to the proceeds of crime and other related issues. While it is not as simple as the Deputy stated, his sentiments are correct. We want an end to that.

People have been focussing on it in recent months and we have an opportunity to achieve finality. The Government will do all it can. I spoke to the Prime Minister, Mr. Blair, about that yesterday. I will probably speak to him about it on the telephone tonight or tomorrow. We will continue our efforts to make progress.

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