Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2005

Vol. 604 No. 5

Garda Síochána Bill 2004 [Seanad]: Motion to Recommit.

Mr. Costello

I move:

That Dáil Éireann, pursuant to Standing Order 128(1) of the Standing Orders Relative to Public Business, directs that the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 in whole be recommitted to a Committee of the whole House.

Many of the arguments for this motion have been rehearsed both on the Order of Business and in the most recent contributions in the House. However, I wish to respond briefly to what the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has just said. He said this Bill has been around for a long time and it is time to conclude it. It is true it has been around for a long time. It is two years since the heads of the Bill were presented but the Bill has been lying around for the last two years without the Minister showing any alacrity in moving it towards its conclusion.

The Minister also said that he had allowed an extraordinarily long period for the submission of amendments — 20 hours — and that this should be more than sufficient. If that is the case, why is it necessary to bring forward on Report Stage substantial amendments which could have and should have been dealt with on Committee Stage? The Minister is well aware that substantial amendments should be dealt with on that Stage. That is the only opportunity to tease out the details of amendments and to assess whether they are proper.

The Minister is proposing to put through these substantial amendments on the nod. He probably will not get to all the amendments because he has produced an 80 page green booklet of amendments which does not include the substantial ones. The substantial amendments dealing with a whistleblower's charter and the power of the Garda Commissioner to dismiss gardaí will be dealt with by guillotine and without a debate.

Mr. S. Ryan

Shame on the Government.

Mr. Costello

As legislators, we cannot afford to allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to behave——

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy correctly said, it has been discussed on the Order of Business and in the earlier debate.

Mr. Costello

——in this fashion. It is a travesty of justice that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who was previously the Attorney General, is legislating in this manner. We oppose Report Stage and propose that the Bill be recommitted.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

The Garda Síochána Bill and the changes it proposes are the result of a process of consultation. The Minister did not bother to vote in the previous division and is not present to listen to this debate on his major amendments. That shows the contempt he has for us as legislators and for the amendments he has tabled. They are substantial amendments that require to be dealt with on Committee Stage. They also should be referred to the Human Rights Commission. That has not been done so we should, at least, recommit the Bill and deal with the Minister's amendments.

Perhaps somebody will give the Minister a copy of the Government's document, Regulating Better, which outlines how to deal with substantial amendments and regulations. It was published by the Government last year but the Minister obviously has not bothered to read it.

Mr. Kenny

It is like Hamlet without the prince. The Minister of State, Deputy O’Dea, cannot deal with it and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is not present.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The issue is simple. The amendments brought forward at this late stage by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform are either of substance or not. The Minister has claimed that they are dramatic and are a response to the reports of the Morris tribunal. On that basis, the amendments are substantial. If that is the case, they deserve to be debated properly. The way to do that is through a Committee Stage debate. For that reason, I support the proposal of my colleague, Deputy Costello, to recommit the Bill.

A number of issues should be mentioned. There are issues to be dealt with by the Garda Síochána arising from the reports of the tribunal. Changes must be made. We need to put the Garda Síochána under the microscope and we must ensure there is proper transparency and accountability. At the same time, however, we must not trample on the rights of the 12,000 men and women who serve in the Garda Síochána and whose morale is now at its lowest ebb.

Two of the proposed amendments from the Minister might be necessary but they must be properly discussed. One of the amendments involves the summary dismissal of an existing member of the Garda Síochána——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot discuss the amendments. He must be brief.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

——where the Commissioner is of the opinion that the person's membership of the force would undermine public confidence in the force. The second similar amendment involves directing a member of the Garda Síochána to account for any act done or omission made while on duty. The principle is satisfactory but the follow-up process, which might end with the dismissal of that member, needs to be teased out. There must be fair and due process. For example, I received a telephone call last night——

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer that the Deputy did not go into detail.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Ceann Comhairle should listen to the Deputy.

Mr. Roche

The Deputy said he would be brief.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I wish to give one example.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Standing Order allows for a brief comment on the substance of the motion before the House. The Deputy may not go into detail.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

A member of the force for 25 years, a married man with five children, who has never been involved in disciplinary proceedings of any kind, raised this issue. He asked what would happen to him, his wife and children if he could be dismissed without any possibility of recourse to due process, if a superior officer used that procedure against him without proper processes.

We owe it to the public to draw up a Bill in which it can have confidence. We owe it to the Garda Síochána to draw up a Bill which it can believe is in its interests too, and that fully provides for and implements due process. The way the Minister is dealing with the Bill will not achieve that outcome. These provisions will end up in court as sure as night follows day, unless they are properly teased out, debated and dealt with, and the way to do that is to recommit the Bill to Committee Stage to ensure we pass a Bill of which we can all be proud.

Mr. Cuffe

I thought things were bad earlier but I picked up another 48 pages of amendments between the start of the division and now.

Mr. S. Ryan

The Deputy must be joking.

Ms Burton

Where is the Minister? He has left the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Where is the Minister?

Mr. Quinn

Where is the Minister?

Mr. Timmins

The facsimile machine is out of order.

Mr. Cuffe

I have visions of the Minister upstairs at the photocopier.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to show a little courtesy to a Member of this House whom the Chair has called and who is speaking.

Mr. Cuffe

I am concerned at the ability of the House to digest the number of amendments being tabled at this late stage.

Mr. Roche

They are being tabled by the Opposition.

Mr. Cuffe

I have just received 50 pages. In addition there is an amendment in substitution for amendment No. 6 on the principal list of Government amendments. They are being pushed too quickly. I urge the Minister to give us some time. It is very difficult for us and our staff to digest and comment on the many amendments being proposed.

Some look like minor amendments, for instance, changing the word "volunteer" to "reserve" but no doubt some are substantial. Out of courtesy to the House we should be given some time to digest them.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

This is a Bill which was initiated——

Mr. Rabbitte

Where is the Minister?

Mr. S. Ryan

He is in a coffee bar.

Mr. Hayes

Will the Minister please stand up?

Mr. Gormley

He is in a café bar.

Mr. Ring

Deputy Brian Lenihan is only a deputy Minister.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister is giving an interview.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Should we apply for a writ of habeas corpus to bring the Minister before the House?

Ms Burton

Deputy Brian Lenihan is the Minister for playgrounds, not for police.

Mr. B. Lenihan

This Bill was initiated in Seanad Éireann.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, I propose that we adjourn the proceedings to allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Durkan

On a point of order, it is normal practice in the taking of major legislation in the House that if the sponsoring Minister is absent the Opposition must be informed.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. I call the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, to speak without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

On a point of order, is the Ceann Comhairle saying it is in order for the House to proceed in this fashion when the Minister who has created the circumstances is sufficiently contemptuous not to come into the House as amendments continue to roll off the facsimile machine?

Mr. McCormack

The Minister is at a photo call.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. It is obvious to the Chair that Members want to disrupt the business of the House.

Mr. Kenny

On a previous occasion the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform was in the bar when there was an Adjournment debate about a murder case in Cork.

Mr. Naughten

This is a disgrace.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister is now in Dublin Castle launching a matter concerning child care. He should be here when legislation is being discussed.

Ms Burton

He should have sent the Minister of State to do that.

Mr. McCormack

The photograph would not look so good.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The Minister is treating the House with contempt.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am hearing the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan. I will hear the point of order when he has finished. Deputies cannot come in here and one after another stand up to make frivolous points of order. The Chair has ruled on the matter. I am hearing the Minister of State.

Mr. B. Lenihan

This measure received substantial and unguillotined consideration in that House.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Hayes

Where is the Minister?

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Hayes opens his mouth again he will leave the House.

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order——

Mr. S. Ryan

Where is the Minister?

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Garda Síochána Bill was initiated in Seanad Éireann and received substantial and unguillotined consideration in the Seanad. It proceeded to this House where there was a lengthy Second Stage debate.

Mr. Stagg

The Ceann Comhairle is in breach of Standing Orders by not taking correct points of order when they are called by Members. The Ceann Comhairle is out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Stagg

The Ceann Comhairle is protecting the Government.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is holding the House in contempt by his absence, which is not appropriate.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate.

Mr. Roche

That is rich coming from the Deputy whose party held this House in contempt for many years. It is nice to have him and his colleagues in here.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

My question is appropriate. Is it not appropriate that the Ceann Comhairle would suspend the proceedings to allow the Minister to come before the Dáil?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin has known since he came into this House that Ministers or Ministers of State take the business as they decide. The House is never suspended because a particular Minister is not here.

Mr. Kenny

In the interests of common sense will the Ceann Comhairle suspend this sitting until the Minister returns from Dublin Castle? Serious issues are being raised here in the Minister's absence. I understand he is on his way back. The Ceann Comhairle should suspend the sitting until he arrives to answer these questions.

Mr. Gormley

On a point of order——

Mr. Quinn

Once again the Minister has sent the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in to do his dirty work.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

We should send the Garda Síochána out to find the Minister.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can deal with this bit of business. I call Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Gormley

The Ceann Comhairle must accept that Members on this side of the House want to see order in the House and the way to restore order is for the Ceann Comhairle to listen to our reasonable request.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a point of disorder, it is not a point of order.

Mr. Gormley

It is a point of order. We would like the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to come into the House to deal with this important Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

One Member from each party had an opportunity to speak. We are now putting the question.

Mr. Quinn

The Ceann Comhairle should listen to the Deputy.

Mr. S. Ryan

We should get the reply.

Mr. Quinn

Where is the Minister?

Question put.

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Mr. Stagg

Given the contempt that has been shown for the House through the display of arrogance by the Minister in walking out before the debate had begun and the seriousness of the matter in hand, as a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Stagg is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 48; Níl, 68.

Tá

• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Costello, Joe.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Gerard.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Upton, Mary.

Níl

• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Collins, Michael.
• Cregan, John.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Fox, Mildred.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Power, Seán.
• Roche, Dick.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Neville and Stagg; Níl, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher.

Question declared lost.

Sitting suspended at 1.35 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.