On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle——
Order of Business (Resumed).
May I raise a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle?
A Cheann Comhairle, I was attempting to raise a point of order.
In all sincerity, would it not be in the best interests of this House if this very serious issue was clarified?
The Chair cannot clarify it for the Members. The Chair has clarified for the Members that if they are unhappy about it, they have a course open to them——
How could anybody be happy with it?
——that has been used in this House from the time of the establishment of the State, namely, a substantive motion on the issue.
The point is it could reasonably be——
The Chair has no involvement in the issue.
A Cheann Comhairle, I want to raise two points of order. First, in the 16 years I have been a Member of this House I have not raised any matter that is frivolous, point of order or otherwise.
That is not a point of order, Deputy. If you are raising it as a point of order, it is frivolous.
I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, out of respect for me and other Members of the House, to withdraw your reference to what you described as a frivolous point of order that you had not even heard. Second, I want to raise the point of order I started to raise earlier. There is an official record of the proceedings of this House.
That is not a point of order.
You do not know whether it is.
It has already been raised by Deputy Rabbitte and I dealt with it.
It is referred to again and again. Two Ministers of the Government have put two contradictory statements on the record. Which record is correct?
Deputy, you are out of order and you are being frivolous.
It is a matter of profound importance.
They have contradicted each other.
I call Deputy Gormley.
Which record is correct? The Ceann Comhairle should answer that.
May we seek your guidance on this matter, a Cheann Comhairle? How is it possible for Deputies to raise this very important matter?
Deputy, the Chair has indicated it can be raised by way of a substantive motion. I am moving on to the next business, No. 26.
Which Minister was telling the truth?
One of them was telling lies.
I call Deputy Kenny.
A Cheann Comhairle, Ministers in the past lied to each other and lied to the House.
Deputy, withdraw the word "lies".
(Interruptions).
There were court cases because Ministers lied. I want to know which of these two Ministers was telling the truth.
Deputy, you should withdraw the remark that the Ministers lied.
The courts proved they lied.
I did not say anybody lied.
The courts of this country proved that Ministers over there lied.
Deputy Stagg, withdraw the allegation that Ministers lied.
No.
Deputy Stagg, do you withdraw the allegation?
The courts of this country proved that Ministers over there lied——
In the past.
——not me.
That is absolutely right.
The courts proved it.
It was not Ministers who are in the House now.
Nobody said that.
Some Ministers lied.
On a point of order, the matters raised by Deputies Rabbitte, Gilmore and others are of very serious import. I recall a judge of the court making a comment to the effect that one or other of two senior Ministers in a Fianna Fáil Government committed perjury. You, a Cheann Comhairle, as the Chairman of this Parliament, must ensure that Members have their rights.
Yes, Deputy.
One of those fundamental rights is that the truth be told. We appear to have a difficulty in finding a method of how that can be established.
There is no difficulty whatsoever. The Chair has already pointed out that it is by way of a substantive motion. It is not a matter for the Chair.
I want to give you notice that in terms of the rights of Members to have the truth spoken in this House by those who have responsibility——
Hear, hear.
——the Whip of the Fine Gael Party will ask you to summon a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to allow this matter to be cleared up and that the rights of Members to know the truth from the mouths of Ministers be established in accordance with what Deputies Rabbitte, Gilmore, Stagg and Jim O'Keeffe have raised. This is a matter of very considerable importance which does down the perception of this House as being able to do its duty honourably and with integrity and credibility.
There is a very simple issue, namely, that the record reflects two contradictory statements from two Ministers.
The Deputy should not——
I am making a modest proposal. Could you, a Cheann Comhairle, request that both Ministers come to the House-——
The Chair will not request that. The Chair has never done that in the past and does not intend to do it now.
——to clarify the record and the contradictory statements?
I wish to make a point of order.
I call Deputy Boyle. I hope it is a point of order.
A Cheann Comhairle, there is a facility for a notice of motion to be put to your office before 2.30 p.m. today for a Private Notice Question to allow both Ministers to make a statement before the House and be questioned on that. I ask that you facilitate that.
All applications to my office are considered. I call No. 26, the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 [Seanad], Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage, to conclude at 8 p.m.
Deputy Boyle's request was reasonable.
A Cheann Comhairle-——
The Minister wants to respond.
For the record, one Minister stated: "The investigation by Assistant Commissioner Carty was completed and presented to me and, in turn, to the D[irector of] P[ublic] P[rosecutions]."
That does not arise on the Order of Business. Deputy, I ask you to resume your seat. Do you wish to leave the House?
However, the other Minister, Deputy McDowell, stated: "the Carty report was not delivered ... either to me or to the then Minister, Deputy O'Donoghue".
The Deputy will have to leave the House.
There is a conflict.
On a point of order-——
There will be no more points of order. I call No. 26, the Garda Síochána Bill 2004 [Seanad], Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage, to conclude at 8 p.m.
A Cheann Comhairle, do you agree that the record of the House——
Deputy, you are being disorderly. If you do not resume your seat, you will leave.
I want your view on the matter.
We resume on amendment No. 12, which was being discussed with amendment No. 73. Deputy Crowe was in possession.
A Cheann Comhairle, do you agree that the record of the House should reflect the true position?
That is not a point of order. If you do not resume your seat, you will leave the House.
That was a threat as well.