Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Jun 2005

Vol. 605 No. 4

Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill 2004: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Cassidy

I wish to share time with Deputy McGuinness. I will be brief as much ground has been covered. I am Chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise and Small Business and we have been carrying out work with regard to the insurance industry. It is of the utmost importance that this Bill passes through all Stages before the summer recess. Some 350,000 drivers are still waiting to obtain full licences. People have waited long over their time in terms of what they require.

I compliment the Minister and Government on bringing this legislation before the House. Four Bills were promised to deal with insurance. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board was established and the Civil Liability and Courts Act, which dealt with fraudulence, came before the House. Those who make fraudulent claims will be punished and fined and made to pay the entire costs for any claim found to be fraudulent. This is the last of the four promised health and safety Bills and I congratulate the Taoiseach and Government on what they are doing.

There are between 60,000 and 70,000 uninsured vehicles in Ireland at this time which is unacceptable. Some 375,000 drivers are without full licences. A significant tightening up is required. I am calling for the speedy establishment of the traffic corps which we witnessed first hand in New York where it has proved very successful. The monitoring of the penalty points system has been lax since the first six months of its introduction. It was initially a great success, but people know it is not being monitored in the way they expected and are adding another five and ten miles to their speed. As a result of its traffic corps, crime in certain parts of New York fell by 30% because criminals had to get from A to B.

These are some of the points we have picked up and gained experienced of in the course of our insurance inquiry and I bring them to the attention of the Minister of State. I wish the Bill a speedy passage.

Mr. McGuinness

I compliment Deputy Cassidy on his chairmanship of the committee of which I was a member in 1997 during my first term in the Dáil. I realise the valuable work undertaken by the committee and the impact it has in encouraging new legislation that will help those seeking licenses and insurance as well as the business sector. This legislation is also to be welcomed.

The issue raised by the Deputy regarding insurance is one on which the committee has worked extremely hard. I am aware of the work it does and continues to do and it is yielding results. Fleet insurance is beginning to shown signs of decreasing, in some cases by up to 20%, provided one fulfils certain employer obligations. I confess my interest in this regard. It is essential that the committee continues to highlight problems within the insurance industry, maintains pressure with regard to the need for change in legislation and ensures that insurance companies are answerable to the committee and appear to have a role in the context of their dealings with fleet and individual insurance and the way in which standards are set and maintained. I commend Deputy Cassidy on his work in this regard.

Deputy Finian McGrath spoke about the school bus system. I express my sympathies to all concerned in the tragic accident. Much can be learned from that event and we must learn as we go along. The school bus fleet leaves much to be desired in terms of safety and the average age of vehicles. We must examine best practice in other countries and immediately apply it here. If investment is needed, which it undoubtedly is, then the State should not fall short in making the money available to the operators or those involved in ensuring the safe transport of children from home to school. Whatever is required to attain that level of safety, whether it is carers or seatbelts, should be provided and adhered to. I encourage the Minister of State to pass on the message of this debate to the relevant Minister. There is unanimity in the House in terms of what needs to be done with the school bus service.

The service also needs to be modernised and made more flexible in the context of the families who will occasionally require it. Too much bureaucracy is attached to the implementation of school bus routes in this country and there is too little application of common sense with regard to the route and standards which need to be adhered to. I join Deputy Finian McGrath in asking for action in this area sooner rather than later. Money should not stop the modernisation of the school bus fleet.

When discussing the legislation, we must also highlight the need for special funds for urban areas. Too many local authorities, county and borough councils and corporations must deal with the increase of planning applications, the construction of new roads and the implementation of safety measures within a very confined budget. At the same time, they must provide the necessary road signage, which is currently deplorable. It is very difficult to follow road signs, of which there is a lack in certain areas. It is unhelpful to tourists and to those who cautiously move along the roads and motorways, looking for exits and points of destination. I would encourage greater investment in general signposting and the proper mapping out of urban centres in terms of signage, as well as safety and cautionary signs. Little funding is made available to local authorities in this regard. We must recognise the shortcomings of road networking in urban centres and provide funding. People drive on these roads, subject to the signs, and this also applies to those sitting tests.

The country has experienced considerable growth in prosperity and each household now has two or three cars. Public transport is very poor in rural Ireland in terms of connectivity with urban centres and inter-urban routes. It needs to be developed and this slow process is being embarked upon. However, it should be delivered with greater efficiency.

Young people need other forms of transport and many are queuing up to take their driving test. Many rely on it to get a job and employers are often forced to supply the would-be driver with a letter stating that they have a job subject to passing the test.

It highlights the frustration, particularly of young people seeking employment, and of many others who are relying on a system which is creaking under pressure to deliver tests.

The legislation is timely. I hope it has an efficient passage through this House and that the parts of the Bill aimed at delivering driving tests to those that are waiting on the list — Deputy Cassidy gave a figure of 370,000 — will result in such people getting their tests earlier, from people who are qualified and who understand what is required on our roads and motorways. The waiting times in some areas, particularly in Carlow-Kilkenny, are simply unacceptable. The fact that in some cases and on some days people have to travel from Dublin to Kilkenny to carry out those tests is also an indication of how the system is creaking and in need of reform.

Having looked at the waiting lists that exist and the number of accidents occurring on our roads, there is a need for testers to be fully qualified and up-to-speed with changes in terms of European standards and what is required on Irish roads. There is also a need for concentration relating to the instruction being undertaken by those waiting on the lists. I know many young people who are anxious to have some off-road learning, to have a site, perhaps a private one, available to them where they could begin their driving instruction at a cost effective and affordable price. Their future employment prospects rely on the cost being affordable. Otherwise, we will find more and more people taking a chance, going out on the roads uninsured and without a licence. There are far too many uninsured people and some have no licence either. We need to understand why they are there, rather than simply going after them and catching them, ensure they are brought back within the system, are encouraged by an affordable testing system to take instruction and a test and qualify and obtain the appropriate insurance. Unfortunately, as the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, chaired by Deputy Cassidy, has highlighted time and again, the type of insurance required is simply out of reach of many people, particularly the young.

In the context of the provisions of this Bill, I am glad that under section 9 it will be open to the authority to engage in the publication and production of materials relating to the promotion of better driving standards. I am told by those that provide driving instruction that they have to go to the United Kingdom to get the most up-to-date information on signage and instruction for those taking a test or driving on public roads. The Irish equivalent of such information is simply non-existent or else is so out of date that it is not relevant. A number of Irish driving instructors have been purchasing material from the authorities in the United Kingdom and adapting it to Irish needs and the standards that are set here.

Likewise, under section 12, I am glad the numbers appointed to the board of the authority will be not less than six and not more than 11. Those appointed to the board should have a relevance to the authority and should have certain qualifications to assist them in serving on the board. That is very relevant in the context of road safety, quality of instructors and so on. Perhaps the bodies that represent driving instructors or the consumer should be represented on the board of the authority.

I have argued on many pieces of legislation about accountability to this House. I am pleased that under section 27 there is an obligation on the board that is appointed to account to the Comptroller and Auditor General. Far too often in legislation passed in this House we have ignored the responsibility we have, as legislators to take the financial accounts of the bodies that we appoint, to peruse them, comment on and analyse them and to make recommendations. As vice-chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, I am glad to say we are taking a far more rigorous view of bodies and are ensuring straight talking regarding those bodies, or quangos, that are accountable to the House. On a regular basis we invite such entities to appear before us and ensure they answer the appropriate questions, including those put to members of the committee by the general public. This is a good example of legislation that includes provisions which recognise the need for greater accountability in the context of how we do our business as legislators.

There is a need to look at the heavy goods vehicles and how they are licensed. I am glad the Minister for Transport in his recent communications — he has many of them relating to Members of the House — has outlined the agreement he has made with the Irish Road Haulage Association. I know he has had many meetings with that organisation, that various issues of relevance were discussed and agreements were reached. I see the association having a major role to play with regard to safety on our roads. I know sites are being looked at in the context of providing instruction and testing for heavy goods vehicles and I hope that Kilkenny will be a real player in that regard. There is a need to ensure counties outside those with the main cities have a role to play in the context of instruction and testing for heavy goods vehicles.

We have seen many reports, on "Prime Time" and elsewhere, on the road haulage area. I came from that industry and was a driver of a heavy goods vehicle in my earlier life. Drivers of such vehicles can contribute both positively and negatively but with a small amount of work with their representative body, they could have an enormously positive contribution to make. I urge the Minister to continue his work with that body to ensure we have a greater degree of safety relative to the type of vehicles that are on the road and the type of testing that is conducted. The ongoing participation of the representative body, either with the new authority or directly with the Minister, is absolutely essential.

The National Car Test has concerned me for quite some time, particularly the length of time it takes to organise a test, as is also the case with the tests for heavy goods vehicles. We should get to a point with this legislation and the conduct of our business with both the private motorists and haulage companies where we are able to deliver a test almost immediately with no waiting time. It was brought to my attention recently that taxis often have to wait an unreasonable length of time to have even a new vehicle tested. That is very unfair and should be dealt with immediately. The cost for the yearly test for a taxi is unacceptably high. Taxi drivers are delivering a service and trying to make ends meet but the regulation and the bureaucracy that surrounds the system has grown to a point where it is inefficient and not cost effective. It needs to be adjusted to take account of the demands of the marketplace.

If we are making changes in this area, we should begin by showing the Irish Road Haulage Association and the taxi drivers' representative bodies that we are serious about our business, understand their difficulties and are able to adjust the system to create one that is more efficient, cost effective and will address their problems. That is a challenge for the Minister and if he rises to it and works at it he will achieve a lot for all of those involved in the industry, resulting in a greater awareness of safety and of the positive contribution road hauliers and taxi drivers can make in the context of making our roads safe and the industry more efficient.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Mr. Callely)

I thank Deputies for their positive contributions to the debate. I acknowledge the general welcome afforded to the Bill by Members of the House.

In the course of the debate, Deputies raised issues, some of which directly relate to the Bill and others to road safety in general. The purpose of the Bill is to establish the Driver Testing and Standards Authority whose primary responsibility will be the delivery of the driver testing service. However, I can confirm to the House that consultants engaged by my Department have recommended that the DTSA be given a broader remit to make it a more viable organisation and enable it to better contribute to issues of road safety. I agree with a number of speakers who suggested considering options for a wider road safety remit for the DTSA. This may present an enhanced prospect for integrating and improving road safety functions. I have had numerous meetings with the insurance industry and am confident it would welcome the prospect of integrating and improving road safety functions.

I am advised that the establishment of a separate public sector body to deliver the driving testing service and take responsibility for other functions more appropriate to an executive agency than to a Department is also an opportunity for the assignment of other functions relating to general road safety to the authority. It is proposed that the Bill be amended to include enabling provisions which will allow for the transfer to the authority of additional functions with a bearing on road safety. The functions include the promotion of road safety awareness. The Bill already provides that the authority will have a general duty to promote the development and improvement of driving standards. In this context it is appropriate that road safety education and promotion be transferred to the authority.

The feasibility of transferring the Department's responsibility for functions relating to vehicle standards, much of which derives from EU legislation, is also being considered. It is suggested that some of the detail and technical aspects of this work might be appropriate to transfer to the authority.

It may also be appropriate that aspects of road safety research be transferred to the authority which will effectively have a significant input into road safety through driver training and testing and vehicle testing. Areas relating to road haulage may be appropriate to the authority, as referred to by a previous speaker, my good friend and colleague, Deputy McGuinness. Given the likely remit of the authority, we should consider a change of name for the authority and this was referred to by a number of speakers in the debate tonight, including another good friend of mine on the Opposition benches, Deputy Stanton.

Many Deputies observed that the Bill does not make specific provisions as to the manner in which the authority will carry out its functions. The Bill defines the functions of the authority and provides for an organisational structure within which the authority will operate. It sets out the responsibilities of the chief executive officer who will report to the board and provide that the authority will be empowered to engage in certain commercial activities and to borrow money. Crucially it requires the authority to carry out its functions to certain standards as determined by the Minister of the day. It will be a matter for the chief executive officer and the board to determine how best to carry out the functions assigned to the authority.

Deputy Ryan made a specific reference to the creation of a board to oversee the work of the authority. Section 12 of the Bill sets out specific criteria for the selection of membership of the board, as referred to by Deputy McGuinness. Given the range of functions to be discharged by the authority, the board will have a significant responsibility for giving direction and support to the CEO and staff of the authority. I congratulate Mr. Noel Brett who has been appointed as chief executive officer of the authority and wish him well in his role.

Deputies called for reform of the driver licensing system and the registration of driving instructors. The strategy for road safety 2004-2006 states that driver licensing regulations will be amended to discourage long-term reliance on provisional licences. A range of measures to achieve this goal is under consideration in my Department.

The issue of the accountability of the new authority to the Oireachtas was also raised. The chief executive officer will be responsible for the propriety of the authority's accounts and the economic and efficient use of its resources and will be accountable to any committee of the Houses of the Oireachtas set up to examine its affairs. The Bill provides that the chief executive officer shall have regard to any recommendations of such committee relevant to the authority's functions.

Many of the contributions from Deputies focused on the driving test and the means by which it could be improved. I concur with those seeking enhancement and improvement of the test. The test follows an EU standard and it is similar to the test in the North and in the United Kingdom. It is interesting to note that testing on motorways or night-time testing is not a feature of the test in these islands. Despite this, the UK has a relatively good road safety record when compared with other EU countries.

The purpose of the test is to assess whether a person has reached a certain standard of driving competence. Deputy Stanton stated that passing the test does not mean a person is an excellent driver and ready to take on any situation and this point struck a chord with me. The process of developing further driving skills and experience is ongoing over years.

The issue of variations in the pass rate at different test centres was raised. This is a fact of life and is also the case in other countries. Various reasons have been advanced, such as demographic factors and standards of instruction. The Bill gives the authority the responsibility for the regulation of driving instruction. This will require those in the industry to meet predetermined standards which will cover not only their own ability to drive but will also ensure that those meeting the standard will have the necessary instructional skills to deliver the message to the novice driver. The registration process will benefit driving instructors. Persons taking lessons will have greater confidence in the quality of instruction given and this will lead to better and safer drivers.

Deputy Shortall and others raised a specific issue concerning the treatment of existing driving instructors. All instructors must demonstrate that they have reached the required standard in the interests of ensuring an appropriate standard of instruction applies throughout the country. During the period of transition when all new instructors will be required to undergo appropriate tests, existing instructors who can show they are bona fide instructors will be allowed to continue instructing before undergoing the appropriate competency tests. The length of the transition period and the manner in which the competency of existing instructors is assessed during that period will be considered in the context of the drafting of regulations to require instructors to be registered to give instruction for reward and the establishment of the authority.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell referred to motorcycle accidents and I agree with her that this is an area of concern. Motorcycle riders are especially vulnerable on the roads. The road safety strategy 2004-2006 proposes an implementation of a programme of compulsory initial practical training for motorcyclists. Work is ongoing with financial support being given to the Irish Rider Training Association to facilitate the development of a network of motorcycle instructors which is an essential prerequisite for any programme of compulsory training.

I do not believe there is a need for compulsory training as the instructors are available. I hope more motorcyclists will avail of the existing programmes. As a motorcyclist myself I was recently approached by a noted well-known media personality who, like me, is back motorbiking following a period of years off the bike. He brought to my attention the motorbike course run by Fingal County Council on which I congratulate the council. The Garda Síochána also organises an excellent training course and commercial instructors are also available. Motorcyclists should be encouraged to avail of these courses. A working group has also been established to examine the standards that must apply to such training and how such training might be delivered.

Deputies referred to long waiting times for driving tests. I accept the point that there should be little or no waiting period for a motorist who is ready to take the test to be called for it. That is the service I would like to see in place. My officials in consultation with the Department of Finance agreed a package of measures to reduce the numbers on waiting lists by up to 80,000 by the end of next year. Engagement with unions about the implementation of these measures has commenced. The measures include an additional productivity incentive in the form of a bonus scheme for testers, the details of which have to be finalised in consultation with the staff, the recruitment of additional driver testers as well as outsourcing a block of tests to an outside body. An outsourcing option is necessary to make significant inroads into the backlog of tests within a reasonable timeframe. The outsourcing arrangements will include provisions to ensure that a consistent and high standard of test is delivered. There is no question of allowing standards to slip.

I wish to clarify the number of driving testers employed. There are 117 testers, six of whom were formerly retired. The number is one fewer than at this time last year and compares to 66 testers in 1998. In addition to the testing corps, there is a chief tester and ten supervisory testers.

I was asked about the gender balance among driving testers. Eight of the 117 testers are female. I encourage females to apply for the position of driving tester and there is no barrier to prevent females from joining the driving tester service. When these figures become known, we might be able to encourage more females to join this service.

Deputy Ring asked whether staff from my Department joining the DTSA would retain their Civil Service status. The proposal is to transfer members of staff to the authority with a guarantee that their existing terms and conditions will be protected. I am concerned that the retention of Civil Service status and the consequent alignment of the grading structure in the new authority with Civil Service structures might prove to be overly restrictive on the authority in carrying out its functions, which may require a more flexible staffing structure to apply. Nonetheless, I recognise that staff have genuine concerns that I am prepared to consider with a view to alleviating them in the most effective way possible without compromising the ability of the DTSA to deliver a quality service. I intend the process of setting up the DTSA to be open and transparent and to go forward in the spirit of partnership with all the staff associations.

I do not accept Deputy Ring's characterisation of the legislation and the setting up of the DTSA as a money making racket. Safety on our roads is an extremely important issue and this Bill is a serious attempt to tackle it.

During the debate many Deputies referred to the accident rate among young people. There is no doubt that young people, particularly young males, are over-represented in accident statistics. There are the consequences that young people can under-estimate danger while driving and over-estimate their driving ability and skills. Novice drivers do not have the same level of automatic driving skills as experienced drivers and such skills take time to develop.

A national analysis of young driver accidents in 2000 carried out by the National Roads Authority highlights the scope of the problem. In 2000, the fatality rate was much higher for those aged 18 to 24 than for any other age cohort. The death rate in the age group 18 to 24 years was more than ten times higher for males than for females. This is also reflected in the difficulties facing young people in obtaining motor insurance at a reasonable premium. The most frequent occurring error for young drivers involved in two-vehicle collisions is exceeding the safe speed limit.

There is a perception that provisional licence drivers are more involved in accidents but there is no substantial evidence to support this view. Of the 232,820 drivers who incurred penalty points as of 30 April 2005, only 6% were provisional licence holders. The formation of good attitudes to driving is of particular importance. Accordingly, young people are the target of much effort to promote road safety in Ireland and in other countries.

Deputy Stanton mentioned that two of his children are coming into the league of young motorists and I am in the same class as the Deputy in that respect. I note the responsible attitude to driving not only among my children but among their friends. I have the height of admiration for young motorists today. They seem to be far more responsible than the previous generation in many aspects related to motoring, in terms of——

Mr. Stanton

I fully agree with the Minister of State.

Mr. Callely

——in terms of speed, the consumption of alcohol and everything else that goes to ensure road safety and good driving. I take this opportunity to congratulate our young people on their responsible attitude in the manner in which they go about their driving. I hope the insurance companies will acknowledge that and accommodate them by offering them more appropriate renewal premiums. In response to such a request the insurance companies will point out that they must examine the statistics and that when there is an improvement in that respect they might be able to accommodate that request. I hope that working together we will be able to continue to make the types of developments we have witnessed such as the one to which I referred regarding the responsible attitude of young motorists.

The National Safety Council has developed a number of educational programmes for pupils of primary and secondary schools. The Garda Síochána has a great programme in place involving a limited number of personnel. The Garda Commissioner might consider increasing the number of gardaí involved in that safety programme. There are great programmes available to schools. The National Safety Council focuses on younger road users. A strategy of its safety awareness campaign is that it is very much directed at the young driver.

A number of Deputies referred to a captive audience among secondary school pupils in transition year in terms of participating in such programmes. I support the view that this opportunity should be explored in greater detail.

A noted driver with a successful track record in motoring, particularly in rallying driving, and a good friend of mine, Rosemary Smith, has been promoting a programme for some time that would be of enormous benefit if targeted at transition year students. A difficulty in introducing such a programme, as pointed out by a number of Deputies, would be the manner in which it could be rolled out nationally. While we can examine that, there are other steps we could take to explore opportunities, particularly in co-operation with the National Safety Council, the Garda Síochána and the Department of Education and Science, in regard to the curriculum and opportunity presented in transition year.

Deputy Stanton referred to the opportunity presented in this area during transition year and he referred to substance abuse. He referred to two other points to which I wish to refer, one being the impact of tiredness on motorists. I clearly signal that tiredness can kill, a point to which Deputy Stanton alluded. I encourage local authorities to place a warning sign to this effect — as I have witnessed in some counties but more particularly overseas — in their catchment areas. Records show that tiredness can kill. Deputy Stanton also referred to pedestrians and cyclists. I encourage local authorities to favourably examine pedestrian and cycling strategies as these are important factors if we are to encourage people to walk and to cycle, a point to which the Deputy alluded.

Deputy Cassidy raised the issue of the cost of motor insurance. I am pleased to inform the House that I have had one to one meetings with the chief executive of each insurance company operating in Ireland and I have also had a round table meeting on this issue. I am progressing in such interaction with the insurance companies to address a number of issues to which Deputy Cassidy referred.

Deputy McGuinness referred to the Garda traffic corps, school bus transport and signage. Good progress has been made in regard to the Garda traffic corps. I do not know the exact number of personnel who were in the Garda traffic corps but it was approximately 300 and we are increasing that number to just shy of 500. We have a target to increase the number of personnel to 1,200. We have put a management structure in place in this regard including an Assistant Commissioner, an inspector and so on. We have also begun to improve the supports that are available by way of vehicles as well as through information technology and so forth. The establishment of the traffic corps is under way and it is to be hoped we will see the benefits.

School bus transport has always been a matter of major concern. I again sympathise with those involved in the Kentstown tragedy. That has put a particular focus on school bus transport. I am pleased to inform the House that my Department, along with the Department of Education and Science and others, is determined to be as proactive as possible to ensure that the best international standards prevail in school bus transport. I must be cautious as we are awaiting the reports of the investigation arising out of the Kentstown incident and I hope these will be available as soon as possible.

I refer to two other issues raised by Deputy McGuinness. One is signage. I support the view that directional and safety signage are important and can be of great additional benefit. We are talking about very small money in this regard, so it is not a financial issue.

Mr. Neville

The situation is dire in rural areas.

Mr. Callely

It should not be and let somebody point the finger to me if this is a financial issue, because we will resolve it.

Mr. Neville

My county council area in Limerick is a disaster for tourists, even for locals, in terms of directing people. The situation is abominable.

Mr. Callely

The cost of a simple sign is very small in real terms. I am happy to work with any Member of the House if there is an issue with local authorities in terms of directional, safety or other road signage that is required.

Mr. Neville

Will the Minister of State mind if I take this up with Limerick County Council on his behalf?

Mr. Callely

I will be happy to meet any council in that regard.

Mr. Neville

The Minister of State does not have to meet the council. He just has to take up the issue with it.

Mr. Callely

I ask every Member to encourage local authorities to ensure that appropriate signage is in place. I will certainly encourage, support and assist Deputy Neville in whatever way I can with his local authority.

Mr. Neville

I thank the Minister of State.

Mr. Callely

I pay tribute not just to Dublin Bus for which I have the height of respect because it is going about its business and developing its services in a proactive manner — it was mentioned by Deputy McGuinness in the context of suburban services — but also to Bus Éireann and its new acting chief executive, Mr. Tim Hayes, for the manner in which the company has developed services throughout the country and ensured that the social requirements of villages and parishes are accommodated. That will continue.

I say to all the Members that have made specific points that I do not have the time or opportunity to reply. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is about to call me to order regarding the time I have available.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister of State has unlimited time.

Mr. Callely

I will wrap up by saying that if it is acceptable to the House, I will ask my officials to contact directly those Deputies who sought a specific response to issues raised during this debate. It might be more helpful and productive for the House to go about our business in that fashion.

I thank my officials and the Deputies for engaging in such a good constructive debate on all the issues raised. I am pleased to commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.