Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Oct 2005

Vol. 607 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 5, Employment Permits Bill 2005 — Second Stage (resumed); No. 1, Parental Leave (Amendment) Bill 2004 [Seanad ] — Second Stage; and No. 15a, statements on the Asian earthquake and mudslides in Central America, to be taken not later than 1.30 p.m. and the order shall not resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings on No. 15a shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the statements of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15a, statements on the Asian earthquake and mudslides in Central America, agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Kenny

There are three matters I wish to raise on the Order of Business. The Tánaiste announced this week that all IT projects being undertaken by the Health Service Executive would have to be approved by her Department and the Department of Finance. Does that mean——

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Kenny

It does arise. Perhaps the Chair will allow me finish.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise.

Mr. Kenny

When will the changes to the Health Act to implement that requirement take place? The Health Service Executive is supposed to be independent. Professor Drumm is the accounting officer, yet the changes announced this week are to be approved by the Health Service Executive and the Department of Finance. When will the Health Act be amended to give effect to that matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

No legislation is promised.

Mr. Kenny

We cannot have a situation——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, we cannot have a debate.

Mr. Kenny

——where approval is required by the Department of Finance, the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive. The legislation will need to be changed to give effect to the Tánaiste's commitment.

I have raised the following matter on a previous occasion. When will sections of the Children Act that relate to parental supervision orders, in particular sections 111, 112, and community sanctions, sections 115 and 132, that have not yet commenced, be implemented?

For the past three months the Fine Gael spokesperson on health and children, Deputy Twomey, has sought clarification arising from a parliamentary question in July 2005 on conflicting figures given by the Tánaiste about a cutback of 2 million home help hours. The Tánaiste promised to clarify that information on 20 July. Perhaps she will indicate when that information will be provided?

The Tánaiste

There has not been any cutback in home help hours. I did clarify the matter at the Dáil committee. The total number of home help hours has been increased and the home help——

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, last week information was given to the House by the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children on a 40% cut in the home help service in Kildare and I assume elsewhere. That is an official response from the Tánaiste's Department.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister is misleading the House inadvertently, or she does not bother informing herself.

The Tánaiste

We are spending €120 million this year on home help.

Mr. Stagg

It does not matter about the money because the Minister is cutting the hours by 40% in County Kildare. An 80 year old woman was affected by the cuts.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of order. The Tánaiste without interruption, please.

The Tánaiste

I repeat that home help hours in the country have not been cut.

Mr. Stagg

The home help hours have been cut by 40% in County Kildare. The Minister's Department told me that last week.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Stagg to resume his seat. The Deputy can raise the matter in other ways if he thinks it is wrong. The Tánaiste has been called and she is entitled to be heard.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister is misleading the House.

The Tánaiste

I am not misleading the House.

Mr. Stagg

She has acted deliberately.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter does not arise on the Order of Business. It is a matter for questions.

Ms Lynch

It is the job of the Ceann Comhairle to make sure we know what the Tánaiste is saying.

An Ceann Comhairle

My job is to make sure that when I call the Tánaiste she is allowed to speak without interruption.

Ms Lynch

Is she not supposed to tell us the truth?

The Tánaiste

Some €120 million is being spent on home help this year, compared to a figure of £12 million when Deputy Stagg was last in office.

Mr. Stagg

That is not the issue.

Mr. O’Donoghue

It is interesting, all the same.

The Tánaiste

Some £12 million.

Mr. Stagg

The issue is the number of hours provided for home help.

The Tánaiste

Some £12 million.

Mr. Stagg

The Minister has cut the hours by 40% in County Kildare.

The Tánaiste

As regards Deputy Kenny's question, I do not believe an amendment to the Health Service Executive Act is required because the Department has to approve both the corporate and capital plans for the HSE. In that context, arrangements are being made concerning technology projects. The Cabinet sub-committee on health had a very good meeting yesterday, which included Professor Drumm and the chairman of the HSE.

I will revert to the Deputy concerning the provisions in the child care Act.

Ms McManus

We have been seeking information about home helps for quite a long time and have been unable to get it.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Ms McManus

The Tánaiste should know this. She is the Minister and it might be of interest to her.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way of letting the Tánaiste know. It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Ms McManus

I have three questions to ask the Tánaiste. Everybody in the House will agree that the framing of Mr. Frank Shortt was one of the most disgraceful miscarriages of justice and one of the worst examples of Garda abuse imaginable. He received an award yesterday which many people feel was relatively modest considering his ordeal. What action is being taken to bring those responsible to court? Perjury is a criminal offence.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business. I suggest the Deputy should submit a question.

Ms McManus

Forging evidence is a criminal offence.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the Order of Business?

Ms McManus

The Tánaiste might like to take the opportunity to reply to that point.

My second question concerns a decision made by the Competition Authority on 11 October about waste management and the Greenstar company in particular. There is a strong statement from the Competition Authority——

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have a question appropriate to the legislation?

Ms McManus

I have.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should come to the legislation.

Ms McManus

The Competition Authority's statement calls for a radical overhaul of the regulatory system for household waste management by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. That is a request from the Competition Authority.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should come to the legislation.

Ms McManus

Will the Government introduce a new regulatory framework to ensure people do not get ripped off?

Since 2001, no information has been available on the extent of reports of child abuse. This matter is in the Tánaiste's area of responsibility. We no longer have that information, which is a matter of grave concern. What will the Tánaiste do to ensure the information on the extent of child abuse reporting is known publicly so we can see the extent of the issue and its impact on children?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's second question dealt with legislation. Is legislation promised?

The Tánaiste

Obviously, the Government will take seriously any recommendations from the Competition Authority about the regulatory framework. I am sure the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will note the authority's report and if legislation is necessary it will be forthcoming.

Mr. Sargent

I respect your decision on Standing Order 31, a Cheann Comhairle, so I will ask a question on promised legislation. Will there be an opportunity, perhaps in dealing with the Natural Gas (Regulation) Bill, or hopefully before that, for the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, to make a statement explaining why information was not passed on?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

The legislation certainly does arise. I am asking about this legislation in the context of my earlier question. I am also asking about the Roads (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which needs to be amended to take into account the need for safety measures in dealing with bull bars on SUVs and other problems that have caused injury and fatalities on our roads.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

The Tánaiste

They are both for next year.

Mr. Sargent

There is no urgency.

Mr. Gogarty

There will be another 400 people killed by then.

Mr. Durkan

The broadcasting authority Bill is scheduled for publication in 2006. Just in case the general election takes place before that, does the Tánaiste have any plans to introduce the Bill so we can discuss it to put everything on a level playing pitch before the game starts?

An Ceann Comhairle

That Bill was dealt with in the House on Tuesday.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Durkan raised that matter with me on Tuesday.

Mr. Durkan

I am anxious about it.

The Tánaiste

The answer is the same as on Tuesday — 2006.

Mr. Durkan

Still no change.

The Tánaiste

No change since Tuesday.

Mr. Durkan

I thought there might have been a change of heart.

Mr. Gilmore

Yesterday, I tabled Parliamentary Question No. 190 to the Taoiseach and received the reply around 6 p.m. yesterday. I understand the reply to the question was made available to some journalists as early as 4.30 p.m. yesterday and was the subject of a briefing. Is it in order for replies to questions to be released to journalists or anyone else before they are made available to the Members who ask the questions? In your capacity of protecting the interests of Members of the House, will you, a Cheann Comhairle, seek an explanation from the Taoiseach as to why that was done?

An Ceann Comhairle

It would certainly not be a matter for the Chair to seek an explanation from a member of the Government. I will check in my office to make sure there was no leak there, but I would be absolutely certain there was not. As far as the Government is concerned, however, it is not a matter for the Chair.

Mr. McCormack

The Taoiseach had to get the news out before the match.

Mr. Gilmore

It is a matter for the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to raise it with the Government.

Mr. Gilmore

I have no issue of complaint or criticism about your office, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Right.

Mr. Gilmore

I am informed that the reply was issued by the Taoiseach, or through the Taoiseach's office, to journalists about an hour and a half before I got it. It was the subject of a briefing. It is not acceptable that parliamentary questions are the subject of spinning by the line Department before they are issued to the Members who ask the questions.

Mr. Howlin

That is outrageous.

Mr. Durkan

There has to be an explanation for that.

Mr. McCormack

The explanation is that the Taoiseach was going to the match.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

One would need a permanent team of plumbers here to deal with all the leaks. Legislation to establish the health information and quality authority, and the Irish social services inspectorate on a statutory basis was promised for this year. I note, however, that it is now scheduled for 2006. On the last occasion I raised this delay, the Tánaiste said it was due to the fact that legislation was necessary to process the establishment of the HSE. She said the health Bill and other Bills, including the nurses Bill, were being delayed as a result. The HSE is now long established so I would like to know what is the barrier to progressing this legislation in the Department of Health and Children.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to deal with the question on legislation.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will the Tánaiste advise the House when the health Bill and the nurses Bill will be presented here?

The Tánaiste

I think I explained this to the Deputy and other Members during question time on the last occasion. It is because of a change concerning the social services inspectorate. The heads of the Bill will be published this session so that Members of the House and others can have an opportunity to comment on them. I am hoping to present the final legislation next March.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What about the nurses Bill?

The Tánaiste

Next year.

Mr. O’Dowd

Earlier this year, the Tánaiste gave a commitment to review nursing home legislation, which was to come before us in this session.

The Tánaiste

It will be.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question was dealt with yesterday.

Mr. O’Dowd

I have not asked this question yet, but I am asking it now. Will the Tánaiste examine deaths in nursing homes where coroners have not been informed?

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy should submit a written question to the Tánaiste.

Mr. O’Dowd

In one particular case, two people were buried without the coroner being informed, and no death certificates were issued or sent to the health board.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the matter. It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. O’Dowd

It was five months later before the death certificate was issued in one case. The Tánaiste should examine the issue as a matter of extreme urgency.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg is patiently waiting to make his contribution.

Mr. O’Dowd

May I have an answer please?

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Deputy did not ask a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a parliamentary question to the line Minister.

Mr. O’Dowd

I have asked a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not appropriate on the Order of Business.

Mr. O’Dowd

This relates to a promise for legislation which the Tánaiste did not keep. I am bringing it to her attention that people have died in nursing homes——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has ruled on the matter.

Mr. O’Dowd

——where the rules have not been obeyed and coroners have not been informed of deaths.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It is not in order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. O’Dowd

Could I ask——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Stagg has been called.

Mr. O’Dowd

I do not wish to be disorderly. I will resume my seat, but——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly and the Chair will need to deal with disorder.

Mr. Stagg

Given the 40% cut in home help service in County Kildare, I presume the same is true elsewhere, given that acute hospital beds and long-stay beds are being used unnecessarily as a result and given that Department of Health and Children money has been wasted on computers, does the Tánaiste intend to introduce a revised Estimate for her Department and the HSE——

The Tánaiste

No.

Mr. Stagg

——to allow home help service payments to be made?

The Tánaiste

No.

Ms Lynch

The Tánaiste might want another concept.

Mr. Martin

Deputy Lynch has had many different concepts with all the different parties she has been in.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister to be orderly and allow Deputy Joe Higgins to speak without interruption.

Mr. J. Higgins

We would have liked to have heard more from the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment last night on the issue I wish to raise. He is very voluble this morning. After three hours of Private Members' debate on the initiative of the Independent Deputies and me, we still do not know whether the Government intends to introduce legislation to outlaw the disgusting strategy of Irish Ferries to replace 543 trade-unionised workers——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not necessary to debate the issue again this morning.

Mr. J. Higgins

——with exploited labour.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was debated for two nights this week.

Mr. J. Higgins

Will we have legislation?

The Tánaiste

No.

Mr. J. Higgins

Will the Tánaiste make up for her own instrumentality in bringing exploiters like Gama here by at least trying to save the Irish Ferries workers? Is the answer "no"?

Mr. Howlin

Crocodile tears.

Mr. J. Higgins

What is the answer, a Cheann Comhairle?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste answered the Deputy.

The Tánaiste

There will be ongoing legislation——

Mr. Stagg

The Tánaiste should stand up.

Mr. N. Dempsey

The Deputy should sit down when the Tánaiste is answering.

The Tánaiste

I will not respond to Deputy Stagg in the way he would want me to. There will be ongoing legislation, but no specific legislation on the issue Deputy Joe Higgins has raised.

Mr. Deenihan

In a number of Government legislation programmes in the past four or five Dáil sessions, the Abbotstown Sports Campus Development Authority Bill has been listed in section A with top priority. Will the Tánaiste give a commitment that this Bill will be introduced in this session?

Mr. S. Ryan

She will need to ask the Taoiseach.

The Tánaiste

I understand that is the intention.

Ms O. Mitchell

Good intentions.

Mr. Deenihan

In the past five publications it was listed as a number one priority.

Mr. Broughan

The original agenda for today listed the Sea-Fisheries and Maritime Jurisdiction Bill for discussion at 1.30 p.m. Has the Government now withdrawn the Bill following the committee meeting yesterday and a stormy meeting of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party?

Mr. Howlin

They are at sea.

Mr. N. Dempsey

There are more storms in the Labour Party at the moment.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste should be allowed to answer without interruption.

The Tánaiste

It is a long time since I attended a stormy meeting of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party. I understand there will be legislation in this area in due course.

Mr. Gogarty

Given the threats facing our tourism industry in the next ten years and given the huge litter problem the country faces, an issue my colleagues and I raised in the House 18 months ago, will the Tánaiste give a commitment that legislation will be introduced for a refundable deposit on bottles and cans, which would halve the litter problem overnight and would not cost the State a penny?

The Tánaiste

I understand that legislation in that area would be illegal under the packaging directive.

Mr. Crawford

The Medical Council was established by the Medical Practitioners Act 1978. It controls the actions of doctors, consultants etc. When will the medical practitioners Bill be introduced so that we can discuss the role of that body?

The Tánaiste

We will have that legislation next year.

Mr. M. Higgins

When will Ireland ratify the United Nations Convention against Corruption, which, having achieved the appropriate number of ratifications, will come into effect on 15 December? Does the Government intend to ratify the International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families? Ireland has ratified neither. Only two European countries, Hungary and France, have ratified the former and no other country from the G8 has done so. On the latter while we are discussing partial protection for migrant workers, we have not ratified the main United Nations instrument. Does the Government intend to proceed with ratification shortly in this session or even in the lifetime of this Dáil?

The Tánaiste

I know the Deputy raised this matter last week with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. We will need to revert to the Minister to communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Minister for fornica——

(Interruptions).

Mr. Durkan

At the rate of Government expenditure, we are going to need ten months.

Mr. O’Donoghue

I wonder who would get that job.

Mr. M. Higgins

The Minister for Foreign Affairs indicated in a letter to me that he had written to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, which, I am sure, was a suitable correspondence between the two Ministers. He had asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to indicate when the legislation would be prepared. Can the Tánaiste find out from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if it is intended to ratify the United Nations Convention against Corruption?

The Tánaiste

I will ask the Ministers to revert to the Deputy.

Mr. M. Higgins

I apologise for my misuse of language which was a consequence of Ireland's loss in yesterday's soccer match.

Mr. Boyle

Section D of the legislation programme contains a number of Bills which seem to be in cold storage. When does the Government intend to introduce them?

The Money Advice and Budgeting Service Bill, published in 2002, has yet to have a Second Stage debate. We have already passed the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act and the Disability Act but the Comhairle (Amendment) Bill, which was meant to be a cornerstone of the Government's policy on disability, has yet to have a Second Stage debate. The International Criminal Court Bill was published in 2003 following a referendum held in 2001 and is still awaiting committee time. The National Economic and Social Development Office Bill was published in 2002. The Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service completed Committee Stage in July and yet we have no indication as to when the legislation will be finalised in the House. Why is no priority being given to these important Bills?

The Tánaiste

The Deputy should ask his Whip to raise the matter at the Whips' meeting.

Mr. Boyle

I am the Whip and I am asking.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy should raise the matter among his fellow Whips.

Ms Burton

Will it be necessary to amend the legislation regarding the HSE given that the Tánaiste has advised me that she and her adviser have held meetings in the James Connolly Hospital in Blanchardstown with private developers——

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

Ms Burton

——with a view to developing a private hospital in the grounds? I did not understand that Ministers and their advisers met private developers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made her point. Is legislation promised?

Ms Burton

I thought the development of hospitals was a matter for the HSE to manage. The Tánaiste is in direct negotiations with developers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a parliamentary question to the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children.

The Tánaiste

I am not in negotiation with anybody. It is a matter for the HSE to pursue specific proposals with hospitals subject to public tendering, as the Deputy is aware.

Ms Burton

It is most unusual for a Minister to meet private developers and their adviser to discuss the development of a private hospital in the grounds of James Connolly Memorial Hospital in Blanchardstown. I have never heard of Ministers publicly acknowledging such a meeting as the Tánaiste did yesterday in her answer to me.

The Tánaiste

I have met developers many times over the past year and I would be a very naive and foolish member of the Government if I were not aware of the proposals which people have. The selection of any particular project is a matter subject to public tendering and for the HSE, as the Deputy knows.

Ms Burton

What was the Tánaiste doing at the meeting?

The Tánaiste

With regard to the project, I also met 12 of the hospital consultants, the director of nursing and the representative of the board of management.

Ms Burton

The Minister was at a separate meeting with the developer.

The Tánaiste

At the request of the hospital, I met the developers to see a proposal they wanted to put forward. Is there something wrong with that?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy and the Tánaiste should both return to the Order of Business.

Ms Burton

The Ministers talked to the consultants but nobody in Blanchardstown was consulted.

The Tánaiste

That is not so.

Ms Burton

I am talking of the people, the public and the patients on the trolleys.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not having a debate on that matter.

Ms Burton

Will this action require an amendment to the HSE legislation? It is a valid question. This is no way of doing business.

An Ceann Comhairle

The only appropriate question deals with legislation.

The Tánaiste

There is no amendment necessary to have meetings with anyone. We have laid down the policy in this area and it was published in July.

Mr. S. Ryan

Over the past year or so, the Tánaiste has given certain commitments or dates with regard to the introduction of the pharmacy Bill. I note that two Bills are involved. When is it envisaged that they will come before the House?

The Tánaiste

Both of them will come before the House next year.

Mr. S. Ryan

Will they come in tandem?

The Tánaiste

No. The simpler one, with regard to fitness to practice and ending the derogation, will come first.