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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Feb 2006

Vol. 613 No. 5

Priority Questions.

Crime Levels.

Jim O'Keeffe

Question:

1 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the amount of serious crime, including homicides, committed by people out on bail; the figures of same; and his proposals to deal with the situation. [3628/06]

Joe Costello

Question:

2 Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the reason for the dramatic increase in headline crimes in 2005; the measures he proposes to introduce to tackle the spiralling incidence of murder, gangland killings, rape and drug abuse; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3553/06]

Jim O'Keeffe

Question:

4 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the huge concern among the public about the spiralling crime figures just published; and his proposals to deal with the crime epidemic. [3629/06]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 2 and 4 together.

Question No. 1 is to some degree unrelated as it deals with a separate issue from Questions Nos. 2 and 4. The last two questions involve the general crime figures but Question No. 1 relates to crimes committed by people on bail.

I will deal with all the issues.

It is the Minister's prerogative and there will be 18 minutes for the questions.

I believe it is incorrect procedure. The question is about the specific problem of crimes committed by people who are on bail. That is a separate issue from the general epidemic of crime. However, I can do no more than protest.

It is absurd to state that there has been a dramatic increase in headline crime for 2005 when the level of headline crime for 2005 is 4.4% lower than the level for 2002. I did not hear the Opposition Deputies state that there was a dramatic fall in headline crime when there was a decrease of 3% recorded for 2003 and a further decrease of 4% in 2004 compared with 2003. Since I took the decision to publish crime statistics on a quarterly basis at the beginning of 2003, I have consistently emphasised that care must be taken in interpreting the statistics, especially when considering short-term fluctuations and extrapolating trends over short periods.

I will briefly discuss long-term crime patterns. The level of headline crime in 2005 is lower than that for 2003 by 1.6% and for 2002 by 4.4%. Furthermore, in 1995, with a population of almost 3.6 million people, there were 29 crimes per 1,000 of the population, while in 2005, with a population of over 4.1 million, there were 24.6 crimes per 1,000 of the population. That is a significant decrease in the level of criminality in our population.

Our crime rate continues to compare very favourably with those of our nearest neighbours. In England and Wales, in the year April 2003 to March 2004, the most recent year for which figures are available, 113 crimes were committed per 1,000 population. In 2004-05 in Scotland there were 86.3 crimes per 1,000 population and in Northern Ireland there were 69 crimes per 1,000 population compared with our rate of 24.6 per 1,000.

Moreover, there have been significant reductions in 2005 in the incidence of manslaughter, down 50%; aggravated sexual assault, down 43%; robbery of cash and goods in transit, down 27%, which reflects in part the changes made as a result of the intervention with the cash in transit industry; robbery from the person, down 23%; and theft from the person, down18%. However, I am not complacent and the overall increase in recorded crime and the increases in particular categories in the most recent figures published are disappointing. I am not down-playing my concerns in that respect.

The Minister did his best.

I welcome, however, the significant decrease of 27% in the number of incidents of robbery of cash and goods in transit, down from 62 in 2004 to 45 in 2005. This trend improved in the fourth quarter, with a decrease of 47%.

Operation Delivery, an initiative undertaken by the Garda Síochána to counteract the increase in cash in transit robberies which emerged in 2004 has contributed significantly to this welcome decrease. The code of practice put in place by the major financial institutions and security companies has dramatically improved the situation. I took a direct hand in bringing about the requisite partnership approach among all those involved in the industry to ensure that decent standards were applied.

Deputy O'Keeffe raised the issue of the number of crimes committed by people on bail. In the 2004 report the Garda Commissioner, for the first time, published the number of offences committed by perpetrators who were on bail. In the term of the rainbow Government the number of prisoners on temporary release reached an all-time high of 20%. It is now 2.3%. That is an important figure.

With regard to the people who have been specified by the Garda Commissioner as having committed offences while on bail, it should be borne in mind that these are gross figures. We do not know, for example, whether they were serious offences on which the perpetrators were out on bail at the time they committed the offence which is dealt with by the Commissioner's report. We are not told that by the figures. We will study the figures to ensure that this issue is dealt with.

A bail Act was passed on foot of a referendum. Under that legislation, gardaí are now entitled to oppose bail for persons who are charged with serious offences on a number of grounds, including the gravity of the offence and the likelihood of bail being abused to commit a separate, serious offence. The gardaí continue to apply to courts in serious cases not to grant bail where they believe, in line with the statutory criteria, further offences are likely to be committed. They are not always successful in those applications.

If the Minister fails to deal with the bail issue separately, and that is his prerogative, I will exercise my prerogative and leave the bail issue aside for separate questions.

It will arise again in Question No. 5.

I am hugely concerned about the bail issue. However, I am also concerned about the crime epidemic. My first concern is that the Minister does not appear to accept that we have an enormous problem with crime. It is difficult to envisage a solution being found until there is an acceptance that there is a problem. The Minister quoted various statistics selectively. Has he forgotten the statistic that in 2000 the figure for headline crimes was 73,000 and the figure for last year was 40% more? There are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Will the Minister accept that there is a huge problem? Will he discuss, reasonably and sensibly, what we can do about it? I believe we must put in place various measures such as adequate numbers of gardaí, proper technology and changes in the criminal law. None of these is in place. We have been given promises, commitments and plans but these do not prevent or help in the detection of crime. We must deal with the situation as it is. Will the Minister accept that we have a problem and that we must bring forward and expedite the promises, commitments and plans or this epidemic will continue?

Of course, I regard crime as serious. However, the phrases used in the questions to which I was replying, that there had been a dramatic increase and that crime was spiralling, are simply not true. Since 2000, the numbers have gone down both in absolute and relative terms. They are significantly down per head of population. I simply made that point.

My second point relates to responses to crime. The number of gardaí has risen dramatically. The Deputies opposite will probably not want to remember that when they were last in office, they allowed the numbers of gardaí to fall. Since the two parties now in Government came into office, there has been a significant increase in the number of gardaí. Numbers have reached 12,200 as planned and will increase to 14,000, in training or fully qualified, by the end of 2006. It is not a matter of promises being made-——

Or of promises being kept.

Recruitment has been increased and proper provisions have been made in Templemore for this. Class sizes vary between 275 and 300 to bring us up to the 14,000 as promised. This will be delivered by the Government.

The Garda Síochána Vote this year increased by 13%, at a time of 3% inflation or less. That is a significant increase in resources. This was on top of an increase last year and the previous year. These increases are unprecedented. On Garda equipment, the force is about to get the digital radio equipment that has long been spoken about. I will deliver that and roll-out of the equipment will start this year. With regard to other equipment such as cars, helicopters and the like, the Garda Síochána has never had as much resources as it now has. This year a sum of €82 million or €83 million has been provided for overtime, a significant increase on anything available previously.

This year's budget for the Garda Síochána is €1.29 billion, a 13% increase this year. The money spent on increasing numbers and providing for equipment, Garda stations and international liaison centres etc. has never been higher. I now want to put in place the Criminal Justice Bill which will give gardaí requisite powers in a number of areas. I look forward to the co-operation of Members in seeing that legislation through.

In 2000 crime figures reached 73,000 and last year they reached 101,000, an increase of 39%. The actual number of gardaí in the force today is what is relevant, not the numbers for next year or the year after and not the number of student gardaí. What counts is the number available today.

Future plans for technology will not affect what is happening today. Is the Minister satisfied with 20 year old walkie talkies? Is he satisfied with a PULSE system which does not operate properly and which costs €1 million per month in consultant's fees to keep it going?

Does the Minister not accept that the Criminal Justice Bill appears to be collapsing under its own weight? We will need a wheelbarrow to bring around the Bill and the amendments from his office — we have only seen the heads of those amendments — and the proposed amendments from the Minister with responsibility for Children. Is there not a case for withdrawing the Bill and dividing it into manageable proportions in order to get the legislation through the Houses quickly? I am concerned that this Dáil will be over before the Bill is in place, judging by the lack of progress.

I will deal with the last point first. If I was to split the Bill into different parts, we would require long Second Stage debates on each part. As the Deputy appreciates, that would guarantee no progress would be made in the lifetime of this Dáil on these important matters.

My comment is made out of concern to see the legislation in place.

There are now more than 12,200 fully attested members of the Garda Síochána. This is a significant increase over the numbers ——

That is just 200 above the 12,000 that was the starting point of the Minister's promise.

Allow the Minister to speak. We are rapidly running out of time and Deputy Costello has yet to speak.

If the Deputy wants to interrupt, let the record show that when Fine Gael and the Labour Party were in Government, they allowed the numbers of gardaí to fall.

That is codology. The Minister made promises, but he did not keep them.

Let it also show that they never delivered reform to the Garda, never put in place measures to deliver a decent radio system——

We still do not have it.

——never provided money for prisons and allowed the revolving door revolve so fast that 20% of prisoners were on temporary release. That is the shameful record of the rainbow coalition on law and order. I will not listen to people making specious comparisons.

The Minister will not listen, full stop and that is his problem.

The number of offences being committed — the Deputy made a comparison with the 2000 figures — is less than when his party was in Government——

The figure is up 40% since 2000.

——in 1995, when we had a much smaller population.

Let the figures show that the coalition's record was abject. It was run out of office because it was so poor at handling the issues.

It is no wonder the Minister's record is of a total failure.

That the coalition was thrown out of office in 1997 was a kick in the pants for it. The coalition proved conclusively over a long period that it should not be trusted with the criminal justice system.

That was a poor defence on the part of the Minister.

The Minister for Justice looks something like a punch drunk alcoholic who has at last been persuaded to go to Alcoholics Anonymous and been told that the first thing he must do is recognise his problem.

The Deputy should put a question.

He refuses to recognise his problem. The problem is that while there has been a 3% increase in the overall statistics in 2005, there has been a dramatic increase in the most serious and violent headline crimes. Murder is up by46%. If that is not a dramatic increase, I do not know what is. Rape section 4, serious rape, is up by 33%. Burglary, which is the largest category of all, is up to 26,000 reported burglaries, an increase of 6%. Possession of drugs for supply or sale is up by 20% and possession of firearms is up by 16%. If we add to these figures the number of gangland killings last year, the increase is 250%.

What do we mean by dramatic? The Minister must face reality. What makes matters worse and is even more dramatic is that in the past three months of 2005, overall headline crime increased by 10%. What will happen in 2006? It is time the Minister recognised the reality. If he does not and does not realise he has a problem, he cannot tackle it. The Minister's problem is that he does not even recognise he has a serious problem in headline crime.

The most serious category of all is murder through firearms. The detection and conviction rate for this is abysmal. Only 16% of convictions were for the murders committed over the past five years, an abysmal detection rate. We have the lowest detection and conviction rate for the most serious crime. Criminals realise that they can commit that type of crime with impunity.

The Minister stated that he will take significant steps to deal with the dramatic increase in crime. What are those steps? Operations Crossover and Anvil have not succeeded and we have the figures to show that. They may have succeeded in dealing with other crimes, but not with the dramatic increase outlined by these figures. Operation Anvil operates on the basis of Garda overtime. This means the Minister expects tired gardaí who have already done a day's work to come out again to try to deal with the most serious crime of all, gangland crime. The Minister must build into the Garda plan on an annual basis, outside of overtime, an approach to dealing with headline crimes. Otherwise he will not deal with them at all. If he does not get a grip on reality and face up to what is happening, how can he expect to reassure citizens that he is in charge?

That is just waffle.

It is statistically based.

I have not heard one sensible suggestion from the Labour Party on this question in the time I have been Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

I have given the Minister dozens.

The Labour Party opposed increasing garda numbers in the 1997 and 2002 general election campaigns.

The Minister should answer the question.

It did not want an increase.

That is not true. It is a load of rubbish.

That is true. The party did not want an increase and did not make any commitment.

Will the Minister answer the question?

When the Labour Party was last in office, it allowed the number of gardaí to decrease.

The Minister has not increased the number.

It is perfectly reasonable to use overtime resources to finance significant Garda operations.

That is the Minister's only answer.

If the Deputy knew anything about these operations, he would know that when gardaí have to work 12-hour stretches, as they frequently do during surveillance, they must be paid overtime. If they work over and above their usual daily shifts, they must be paid overtime and this is why the additional funds are being put in place.

On the figures the Deputy quoted——

They are the Minister's figures, not mine.

The Deputy is being wilfully blind to the fact that the spate of gangland killings has abated. He knows very well that this is the case but is pretending it is not. Can he point out such offences that have taken place in the past month or two? They have not occurred because the Garda is getting on top of the issue.

In 2005, there were 19 gangland killings, according to the Minister's figures.

The Deputy should not shout me down. There is no point having questions if he does so.

The Minister should face reality.

The Minister to reply.

The Deputy forgets that——

If the Minister does not face reality, how will he solve the problem?

——he throws against the Garda the fact that drugs seizures have increased. Does he want the Garda to do its job or not? He throws against the Garda the fact that it has seized more firearms, thereby suggesting circumstances have worsened.

I throw it against the Minister.

It is a case of the Garda doing its job. If there were no increases in drugs seizures or charges for possession of firearms, we would then have a problem because it would be clear that policing was not working.

I have a brief supplementary question. The Minister is saying that if we had fewer gardaí on the beat, there would be fewer drugs seized——

That is true.

——and that there would therefore be a lower incidence of crime.

That is true.

That is wonderful and the reason we are not getting the 2,000 extra gardaí. It remains the case that the Minister has not faced up to the serious crime problem, whether it involves murder, gangland killings, anti-social behaviour or drugs. Drug trafficking is one of the most serious issues and is now out of hand.

A question has been tabled on cocaine. We saw in a recent survey that cocaine use is now so ingrained in Irish society that the Garda is finding it extremely difficult to target the problem. This happened under the Minister's watch because cocaine was not readily available in the country when he became Minister. Since he took office, cocaine has spread to every town in Ireland.

In the Deputy's day, heroin was the big problem.

Heroin still presents a serious problem in Dublin. Some 85% of all heroin seizures are in Dublin and the problem has not really spread outside the Dublin area. However, cocaine has spread to every part of the country under the Minister's watch. He is doing nothing about it. Crimes associated with cocaine, including crack cocaine, are becoming the most serious of all crimes and I have not seen any proposal by the Minister to deal with the problem. Perhaps he will tell us today on the floor of the House what he intends to do about this threat.

I will ignore the general situation for the moment. The Minister seems to be in denial about crime in general.

Total denial.

Let me talk about bail, which concerns me greatly. I want the Minister to at least listen to what I have to say. I was horrified by the recent statistic that 15 of the people who died in violent circumstances last year were alleged to have been killed by people on bail. Urgent action is necessary on this front. We need a tougher approach to bail. Has the Minister proposals in this regard, either by way of changing the law such that previous convictions would have to be taken into account by a judge before deciding on a bail application or by way of some change in presumptions regarding people with previous convictions for violent crime?

As the Deputy knows, the Bail Act has been enacted. All the aforementioned criteria are relied upon regularly by the Garda. Whether the Judiciary feels the applications by the Garda to withhold bail are correct is a matter for it to decide. I share the Deputy's apprehension that the bail referendum and Bail Act introduced on foot thereof do not seem to have a reforming effect on circumstances in which serious evidence given by serious gardaí in court is sometimes overruled or set aside. Bail is sometimes granted in the teeth of serious opposition by members of the Garda.

Can we toughen the law? That is my concern.

If the Deputy examines the Bail Act, he will see that all the criteria he has just mentioned are set out therein.

On a discretionary basis.

If the Deputy is suggesting there is a mandatory requirement to withhold bail in certain circumstances——

It is just one possibility.

I will consider that proposal but cannot be sure it would find favour with the majority of people.

On Deputy Costello's point on cocaine, Deputy Gregory has tabled a question on the matter and I believe an attempt is being made to elbow in in front of him on the issue. Huge amounts of cocaine have been seized and these seizures influence the figures on which Deputy Costello is relying to point out that the issue is not being dealt with. He keeps asking whether I accept that crime is serious. Of course I do — I am serious about my job.

I am delighted to hear that. That is the first admission we have heard today and it is about time we heard it.

I have never heard one suggestion from Deputy Costello——

He might say it more often.

——that would improve the fight against crime.

Has the Minister not read any of the documents I produced?

Every measure I have introduced to deal with the fight against crime has been resolutely opposed by him.

He is totally blind to it.

He is a dog who barks all the time but never comes up with the goods.

Human Rights Issues.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Question:

3 Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform if he will make a statement on the conclusion of the joint report of the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland and the Equality Authority, Equivalence in Promoting Equality, that the Republic has failed to meet its obligation under the Good Friday Agreement to introduce a level of equality and human rights protections at least equivalent to those pertaining to the Six Counties. [3724/06]

While the report entitled Equivalence in Promoting Equality was jointly commissioned by the Equality Authority and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, it was written by Mr. Colm O'Cinneide of the University of London and, as stated on page 5, the views expressed therein are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the authority or commission.

The report, which has just come to hand, will be examined closely. However, the Deputy will appreciate that the law in the State is very extensive and includes constitutional provisions, the Employment Equality Acts 1998 and 2004, the Equal Status Acts 2000 to 2004, the Human Rights Commission Acts 2000 to 2001 and the European Convention on Human Rights Act 2003. There is also extensive support by way of the Equality Authority, Equality Tribunal and the Irish Human Rights Commission. The policy of the Government in the area of disability equality is represented by the establishment of the National Disability Authority as well as the Disability Act 2005.

The promotion of these Government measures, both legislative and administrative, follows on the Good Friday Agreement in large measure. As indicated in my reply to Question No. 1046 of 28 September 2005, it is Government policy for all aspects of the Good Friday Agreement to be implemented.

While the views in the report may not be those of the Equality Authority or the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, the foreword to the report, which mentions the findings, is signed by the chairpersons of both organisations, and thus they are endorsing the findings. Does the Minister of State accept that in 1998, when the Irish people cast their vote in favour of the Good Friday Agreement, they correctly believed and expected that the rights protection won under the Agreement, and in particular promoted by Sinn Féin in its negotiations on the Agreement, would extend to and benefit them all? Does the Minister of State agree that by whittling away equality protections and refusing to entertain the notion of a rights based society, he and the Government are trampling on the expressed will of the people?

The Minister has seen the report but has he read it? It is quite detailed and useful. The Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy McDowell, should read it. They might then understand some of what equality organisations have been promoting in recent times and the criticisms directed at the Minister. When will the Minister deliver the long overdue acts of completion that would ensure that this State would have at least an equivalent level of protection of human rights as that stated in the Good Friday Agreement? Does the Minister of State agree with the finding that the Government has failed to deliver on its commitments under strand three of the Agreement?

The foreward to the report refers to limitations within the European Convention of Human Rights Act 2003 and limitations in the scope of the Irish equality legislation as it relates to disability, public function, political opinion and enforcement and remedies, limitations in the treatment of transsexual people and gay and lesbian people in this State and the absence of positive duties to promote equality.

I am tempted to say many things in response to the pronouncement of Deputy Ó Snodaigh but they are better left unsaid. I do not accept that there are any significant shortfalls in equality legislation in this part of the island in comparison to Northern Ireland. I reject completely the proposition made by Deputy Ó Snodaigh. We have in place effective and established protections which provide for and promote equality in the workplace, in the provision of goods and services and on nine discriminatory grounds, namely, gender, marital status, family status, sexual orientation, religion, age, disability, race and membership of the Traveller community. We have legislation underpinning this framework, which I have outlined in my reply. The scope of our equality legislation is broader than the equivalent in Northern Ireland — there is no argument about that.

The essence of the point made by Deputy Ó Snodaigh is that any initiatives introduced in Northern Ireland should automatically be introduced here. I reject that proposition outright.

I draw the Minister of State's attention to the foreward of the report. By rejecting my point, he is rejecting the findings on which the representatives of the Equality Authority and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland, Mr. Bob Collins, Karen Erwin, Evelyn Collins and Niall Crowley signed off. Their report specifically refers to: "The need to address limitations in the scope of the Irish equality legislation as compared to equality legislation in Northern Ireland". The report then details these limitations under headings related to disability, public function, political opinion and enforcement and remedies. These are the words of the representatives of the Equality Authority and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland pointing out the failures of the Government and the State. Will the Minister read the document and perhaps come forward with amending legislation to ensure that we at least have equivalence with Northern Ireland in this regard?

I do not accept that under the Good Friday Agreement the Oireachtas is obliged to copy every legislative innovation with a human rights dimension that has been or could conceivably be introduced at some stage in Northern Ireland, which is essentially what Deputy Ó Snodaigh asks.

It is what is stated in the Good Friday Agreement.

We have a body of constitutional law, statutory provisions and administrative measures. That demonstrates the commitment of the Government to implement and progress a first-class policy on equality. The views expressed are the personal views of Mr. Colm O'Cinneide. I do not accept there is any necessity for this jurisdiction to accept the perceived shortfalls to which Deputy Ó Snodaigh refers.

Question No. 4 answered with QuestionNo. 1.

Drug Seizures.

Tony Gregory

Question:

5 Mr. Gregory asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the significant increase in Garda seizures of crack cocaine in Dublin’s north city district; his further views on the implications of the spread of crack cocaine among drug users generally; if there are specific measures required to assist the Garda Síochána to counteract same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3719/06]

I am informed by the Garda authorities that while there has been an increase in the seizures of freebase or crack cocaine in this jurisdiction over the past three years this represents a small proportion of the total number of cocaine seizures recorded annually. However, the Garda authorities also inform me that most of the recorded seizures of freebase cocaine, particularly in the past two years, have been in the north central division of the Dublin metropolitan region — the area represented by Deputy Gregory.

This is a matter of significant concern to the Garda authorities, which have taken a number of measures to address the problem. The Garda national drugs unit and local drug units are conducting intelligence-driven operations to target individuals suspected of involvement in the distribution of freebase cocaine. Drug units and community policing personnel are engaged in intelligence gathering on individuals and groups suspected of involvement in the sale and distribution of the drugs. I thank the local community for the work of its many activists to help the Garda in that regard. There is also targeted patrolling by uniform and plain-clothes personnel of problem areas in order to detect and disrupt persons involved in such activity.

The national drugs strategy 2001-08 addresses the problem of drug misuse across a number of pillars — supply reduction, prevention, treatment, rehabilitation and research — and the implementation of the strategy across a range of Departments and agencies is co-ordinated by the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. The Government is aware of the increased prevalence of cocaine usage in recent times and efforts to tackle it are broadly based to include measures aimed at both supply and demand reduction, including awareness initiatives.

The fact that most of the arrests have been carried out in the Deputy's constituency shows that there is a particular local issue and that the area is effectively a base for the distribution of crack cocaine, not merely in the city but in Ireland. It would be idle of me to pretend otherwise than that it is a particular community within the Deputy's constituency which at the moment specialises in this area — I do not want to go any further than that because I do not want to be accused of fanning flames. However, in so far as immigrants are engaged in this trade, they should be under no illusion but that if they are convicted or apprehended, or if they come to attention in any other way, the power of deportation will be used aggressively and vigorously to counter this threat.

My purpose in raising the question was to highlight a specific problem, which the Minister outlined in his reply, which is of immense concern, particularly to local community activists who are involved in trying to counter the drug problem in the north inner city. Is the Minister aware that seizures of crack cocaine have occurred almost on a weekly basis in the north of the city since October last? The locations of the seizures are spread across the north city, from Moore Street to Phibsboro. However, while drug seizures are increasing, they usually represent only 10% to 15% of drug activity. This indicates that there is a complex network of crack cocaine dealers operating in the area.

To some extent, the Minister's reply has gone some way to addressing the issues I wanted to raise. I want to be assured that he is taking all steps to have this specific problem assessed and to ensure the correct strategy will be put in place to deal with it before it escalates. If crack cocaine spreads to drug users generally, we will have a major crisis on our hands. The community policing forum in the north inner city, in which I am involved, has been working with the local Garda drug unit on this issue. One of the forum's suggestions is that an inter-agency group composed of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Garda drugs unit, immigration authorities and the community be put in place. Many of these seizures have resulted from intelligence from the local community, which has been working with the drugs unit under the umbrella of the community policing forum.

I know the Minister appreciates how serious this issue could become if crack cocaine were to spread. Is he aware of evidence showing that crack cocaine is being sold outside the particular grouping specialising in it? There is evidence that it is beginning to spread to drug users who would have used other drugs in this area. This development is causing considerable concern to all those in the north inner city who have made considerable progress with the help of the Garda drug unit in dealing with the problem of heroin and other drugs. If crack cocaine spreads through the north of the city, it will be very difficult to deal with. At this stage, we have an opportunity to assess the problem of crack cocaine, develop a strategy to deal with it and prevent it from spreading. Will the Minister support the suggestion by the community policing forum in the north inner city that the various specialist agencies which have an input in this issue due to its specific nature be combined and a strategy for dealing effectively with it produced?

There is a sensible idea.

It is a sensible idea and I will entertain it and give it as positive a response as possible. It is important that there be an inter-agency response and that all State institutions dealing with this problem have a focused and clear view of the problem when it is present in a relatively confined place before it escapes out of the area where it is now located and becomes endemic.

It is not generally understood that crack cocaine is far more potent and addictive than ordinary cocaine. It is far more damaging to human health and leads to the risk of blood clots, strokes, heart attacks, damage to the heart muscle and damage to lungs. It is also frequently associated with psychotic episodes and very violent and alarming behaviour is associated with its use. I do not doubt that what Deputy Gregory said is essentially correct.

Anyone who thinks it is applicable to them should bear in mind that there is no right to engage in this activity in this country under any circumstances. The status of people who have visas to remain in Ireland as a result of the Irish-born children scheme or on another basis is conditional on their upholding the law. If I find it appropriate in any particular case, based on information available to me, to withdraw the right to remain in Ireland and to deport the people in question, I will do so. I will not be dissuaded by humanitarian concerns which are disproportionate to the damage caused by this trade.

The Minister should not confuse these cases with humanitarian cases.

Ireland will not be a soft touch for crack cocaine. Any section of the community which believes that the Government will be a pushover on this issue will find that the opposite is true. I agree with Deputy Gregory that in the same way as the Criminal Assets Bureau involved different groups ranging from the Department of Social and Family Affairs to the Revenue Commissioners to the Garda, it is necessary for the immigration authorities, social workers, the drugs programme, the Garda and the local community to combine to produce a focused result to stamp out this problem.

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