Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Feb 2006

Vol. 615 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 8, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approved by Dáil Éireann for a Council decision on the accession of the European Community to the Hague Conference on Private International Law; No. 9, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a proposal that section 17A of the Diseases of Animals Act 1966 shall continue in force for the period ending 8 March 2007; and No. 1, Social Welfare Law Reform and Pensions Bill 2006 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted on the adjournment of Private Members' business which shall be No. 44 — motion re Labour affairs: establishment of Department of and joint Oireachtas committee on, which shall be taken for 90 minutes at 7 p.m., or on the conclusion of the opening speeches of No. 1, whichever is the later; and (2) Nos. 8 and 9 shall be decided without debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed?

Mr. Kenny

It is fine.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 8 and 9 without debate, motion re referrals to joint committee, agreed?

Mr. Kenny

I want to raise the issue of the Social Welfare Law Reform and Pensions Bill 2006, which is partly the reason for the late sitting. The Bill which includes 50 sections and nine Schedules is quite long. As it was only published yesterday and Second Stage is being taken today, I recommend that to be fair to Opposition spokespersons, Second Stage should be taken on Thursday. While I know the Minister was on radio and did a good deal of work reorganising some of the various schemes, in fairness to Opposition spokespersons who do not have available to them the resources that are available to the Government in preparing for the debate, we would have a much more structured debate if Second Stage were taken on Thursday.

Mr. Rabbitte

This does not happen just on the social welfare Bill. More frequently, this is happening on various Bills brought forward by the Government. What in Heaven's name is the justification for an annual Bill like this being published on Monday and taken in the House on Tuesday? There is no justification. The Minister told us frequently on the airwaves about the new innovations, how complex it is, the provision on pensions, new social welfare code, early child supplement and so on. If it proved so complex that the Minister could only manage to publish it yesterday, how is it proposed that the Opposition spokespersons can respond to it on the hoof on Tuesday? It demonstrates contempt for the House that the Government should continue to treat the House as a rubber stamp for legislation. This is no ordinary legislation, therefore, to publish it 24 hours before the debate begins is completely and utterly unacceptable. For that reason only, we are opposing the proposal for the late sitting because it is not conscionable that we can do business this way.

The Minister for Social and Family Affairs is following in the footsteps of so many of his colleagues. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform leaves one with the impression that he would rather be making announcements, giving interviews, sitting behind his desk, recruiting a Garda reserve, or not as the case may be, and that the House is an irritant because he has to come here to get approval. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs, who ought to know from his days as Chief Whip, should realise it is completely unfair to this side of the House to come in with a measure like this, at this notice, and require the Opposition spokespersons to respond to it off the top of their heads.

Mr. Sargent

It appears rushed once again for such a large and significant Bill to be dealt with in this way. Notwithstanding the late sitting, it was not planned for. If we are to have a reasoned debate, I agree with the proposal that Thursday should be the day on which Second Stage is taken. I oppose the late sitting on that basis.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

On No. 8——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are still dealing with the late sitting.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I thought it was agreed and we went on to the next item.

The Taoiseach

As I said many times, the Government always tries to publish the legislation as early as possible. We do so with most Bills.

As more than half of what is included under the 50 heads of the Bill was in the budget at the beginning of December, no one should be taken by surprise. Admittedly, the child care allowance, which is not a normal element of the Social Welfare Bill, is a new aspect. This, together with some other changes the Minister has made to improve the various allowances, delayed the Bill and made it more complicated. It is scheduled for three days on Second Stage. I accept this puts more pressure on Opposition spokespersons. If we begin Second Stage today, however, we will have three days, until Thursday, to debate it.

Mr. Penrose

This Bill was not due until Thursday——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no provision for a second contribution.

Mr. Penrose

——but is being dumped on us now. It is a hallmark of the incompetence and arrogance of the Government.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the late sitting be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 63.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Fox, Mildred.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Healy-Rae, Jackie.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Roche, Dick.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Boyle, Dan.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gormley, John.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Murphy, Gerard.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Upton, Mary.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 8 and 9, motions re referral to the joint committee, without debate agreed to?

Mr. Sargent

I ask that time be allocated to debate No. 9 rather than for it be passed without debate on the basis that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children has been advised in regard to the avian flu situation. It is important that the Health Service Executive's concerns be addressed. The Minister concerned asked on a radio programme this morning that people dealing with poultry make themselves known to the authorities. This matter warrants debate, albeit of a limited length, in this House and should not be referred to committee without debate.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

No. 8 is a motion re referral to joint committee of a proposal relating to the Hague Conference on Private International Law. I object to the referral of this proposal to the joint committee without debate. We live in an era where there is hyperactivity around justice and home affairs internationally and at EU level in particular. Many of the proposals emanating from the EU in this area constitute an unjustifiable assault on our sovereignty. Ireland is a member of the Hague Conference and, as such, we have an autonomous vote during its proceedings. I am concerned that, under the terms of this proposal, the European Union may usurp that power and vote on behalf of all its members, including this State, thereby gravely undermining this State's sovereignty. Given the potential grievous consequences of this motion, it should not be referred to committee without first being debated in this House.

The Taoiseach

With regard to the first issue raised, this proposal lays the necessary resolution before the House to extend for a further 12 months the provisions of the Diseases of Animals Act 1966. This proposal relates to the legislation passed in this House to deal with the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. The Minister concerned requires a mechanism similar to the resolutions contained in that legislation to deal with related issues concerning avian flu. That is the reason we require them and we want to proceed with this proposal.

With regard to the matter raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh, the Deputy is a member of the relevant committee and he can, therefore, attend a meeting of it. The committee is due to meet tomorrow and he has a right to attend that meeting.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 8 and 9 be agreed to without debate", put and declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

Great concern has been expressed by everybody arising from the most recent tragedy involving five non-national persons. Deputy Burton raised the issue of cars being brought in to this country from other countries that are not subject to the national car test. In that sense, I inquire about No. 77, the roads (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, dealing with traffic and standards. Will this issue be addressed in the context of that Bill?

There is a degree of concern among members of the public about the issue of sentencing and judicial conduct. When can we expect to see No. 67, the judicial council Bill?

I understand that there are more rumblings in the undergrowth in respect of the Abbotstown sports campus development authority Bill. Are we likely to see that Bill in the next few weeks? The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism probably has the answer to that question.

Mar a dúirt mé leis an Taoiseach an tseachtain seo chaite, tá cúpla tuarascáil ag an Aire Oideahais agus Eolaíochta, ceann amháin a tugadh di trí mhíó shin, i leith caighdeán na Gaeilge labhartha sna bunscoileanna. Deirtear linn go bhfuil an stádas titithe i bhfad. Ba cheart go mbeadh an tuarascáil sin foilsithe. An gcuirfidh an Taoiseach brú ar an Aire an tuarascáil sin a fhoilsiú go luath i dtreo is go mbeidh a fhios ag chuile duine céard go díreach atá ann?

The Taoiseach

The Abbotstown sports campus development authority Bill will be published in a few days' time. The judicial council Bill will be ready later this year but not during this session. The impounding of the non-national registered vehicles will be covered in the road transport Bill.

Mr. Kenny

When will it be published?

The Taoiseach

It will be before the summer recess. My colleagues advise that the report on the schools is being examined and will be published. I take it that will happen shortly.

Mary Coughlan

Is ceist don Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta é.

Mr. Kenny

Tá sí in a suí air. Muna bhfuil an freagra agat, bí i do thost.

The Taoiseach

We will raise it with an tAire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta.

Mary Coughlan

Tá sééasca ceist eile a chur síos.

Mr. Kenny

Ní ceist Dáil ach ceist don Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta í.

Mary Coughlan

Ní——

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach seems to be irrelevant to this exchange. Is legislation promised to refurbish and maintain the electoral register?

The Taoiseach

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has committed to a total examination of the present legislation and the process behind it. I understand that is almost complete as I heard the Minister answering questions on it at a recent meeting. I am not sure whether legislation is required to do that. The Minister is bringing forward proposals and it may also require legislation.

Mr. Rabbitte

If responsibility were being transferred to an agency other than local authorities——

The Taoiseach

To an outside agency.

Mr. Rabbitte

——would that require legislation?

The Taoiseach

I am not certain but I got the impression from the Minister that he could bring forward these proposals without legislation, although I may be incorrect. One issue under consideration is whether there is a better and more efficient way of dealing with the register. The Deputy knows my view on that.

Mr. Sargent

I correct the record on the Taoiseach's earlier comment in that all Green parties oppose nuclear power. Will the Taoiseach allow legislation to amend the strategic infrastructure Bill to ensure that nobody thinks the Taoiseach is trying to bring in nuclear power by the back door through this legislation?

In England, a charities conference is being held today, and there is a charities commissioner. We have waited 16 years since the Costello report for legislation to regulate charities. Will the legislation be brought forward immediately?

The Taoiseach

The charities Bill will be introduced later this year. The Deputy knows he cannot convince me to bring in nuclear——

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach is the one bringing it in.

Mr. Gormley

The Taoiseach is bringing it in by the back door. I can see it in his smile. I know what he is up to.

Mr. C. Lenihan

That could be open to many interpretations. The Taoiseach has been accused of many things on the floor of the House.

Mr. Martin

Will that be a campaign issue?

The Taoiseach

The European Greens will not force me to bring in nuclear——

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach should stop lying.

Mr. Martin

Bring back the guitar.

Mr. O’Donoghue

Deputy Gormley is an eternal optimist.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach should start telling the truth.

Mr. Hogan

Does the Taoiseach have plans to bring forward an amendment to the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 given that civil servants seem to attend full-scale Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party meetings?

Mr. Martin

Does this also apply to the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party?

Mr. Hogan

This is a very important issue. Does the Minister who brought the officials to the meeting have a statement to make to the House to apologise for the breach of codes of conduct laid down——

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Hogan

It does arise. It is important for the integrity of the Civil Service.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business. The Deputy can find another way of raising the issue.

Mr. Hogan

Does the Taoiseach have plans to bring forward a robust amendment to the Standards in Public Office Act to keep his Minister intact? There is no answer.

Mr. Martin

Does this apply to the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party?

Mr. Hogan

The Taoiseach should answer the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

I will do the Deputy a favour, I will not answer his question.

Mr. Hogan

Very well. I thank the Taoiseach for that. His silence is deafening.

The Taoiseach

I will tell the Deputy why afterwards.

Mr. Hogan

I will tell the Taoiseach why he should.

Mr. Sherlock

Is it necessary for the Taoiseach to introduce legislation to the House to ask the Minister for Agriculture and Food, who sold out on our sugar industry yesterday, to meet the wishes of the IFA?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

To what legislation is the Deputy referring?

Mr. Sherlock

Is it necessary to bring in legislation to ask the Minister to step aside because she has failed our sugar industry?

Mr. Treacy

It is a disgrace the way it was treated, but not by us.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not appropriate on the Order of Business at this stage, otherwise we will be here all day.

Mr. Naughten

When will the Animal Health Bill be introduced? There is a threat of avian flu here and it takes hours to contact the Department of Agriculture and Food to report a suspect case. When will there be a properly-manned hotline so that people can report incidents concerning an outbreak of avian flu here? The present situation is totally unacceptable. If we are to have confidence in the security integrity of the country it is important to address this issue immediately.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy was made aware several months ago why there was a delay in revising this legislation. He knows the answer to the question. The legislation is delayed.

Mr. Naughten

What about the delay in answering the telephone?

Mr. F. McGrath

The Taoiseach is chickening out.

Mr. Kenny

There is a bug on the line.

Mr. Costello

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is making a mess in introducing the Garda reserve and the relevant regulations, and dumping responsibility on the Commissioner by pretending it was his idea in the first place. Will the Taoiseach ensure that when the draft regulations are drawn up, as distinct from the rumours, they are brought into the House and are debated? The section in the Garda Síochána Act 2005 on the reserve Garda force consists of only 15 lines, containing no specific details, which has provoked a revolt by the Garda force.

The Minister continues to behave in the same fashion as he did with the Prison Officers Association. He has demoralised the Irish Prison Service and is about to demoralise the Garda service.

The Taoiseach

There is no legislation but the Minister stated that he would have a full conversation on this issue with all the interested stakeholders.

Mr. Costello

Will the legislation provide for regulations?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on this issue. The Deputy should submit a question to the appropriate Minister.

Mr. Costello

This matter has not been dealt with properly.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on it here.

Mr. Costello

We do not have an opportunity to discuss the draft regulations. Will the Minister control regulations?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's question was answered. I call Deputy Boyle.

Mr. Costello

Approximately 4,000——

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputy Costello does not resume his seat we will move on to the next business because the House has agreed to sit late and we could have moved on to that business by now. I call Deputy Boyle.

Mr. Costello

May I ask a supplementary question? I am calling for a debate in the House on the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a matter for the Whips.

Mr. Costello

I am calling for a debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. We are moving on to No. 8.

Mr. Costello

These are serious matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Costello is being disorderly. He should resume his seat. Deputy Boyle will be called first tomorrow morning.

Mr. Costello

Why should these matters not concern us?

Mr. Stagg

On a point of order, a Member has asked about secondary legislation, about which he is entitled to ask.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy asked a question which was answered and he got up to make a statement.

Mr. Stagg

He asked about secondary legislation but the Ceann Comhairle refused to let him speak. He is entitled to ask about secondary legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy's question on secondary legislation?

Mr. Costello

The Garda Commissioner must make proposals to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on how the new Garda reserve body will be constituted. The Minister must then draw up regulations.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make another speech on this matter.

Mr. Costello

I am asking whether these regulations will be brought into the House for debate? We have had no forum at which to discuss the make-up and constitution of the Garda reserve force.

The Taoiseach

There is no such legislation. The Garda Commissioner has given his views on the Garda reserve to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Minister has stated he will discuss the issue with the Commissioner but also with the representative groups. Those discussions will need to be completed before the issue of regulations arise.

Mr. Costello

That was my question.

The Taoiseach

In the meantime, the framework has been passed by this House and the Minister will be engaged in the consultations.

Mr. Costello

He has not engaged with me.

The Taoiseach

He has committed himself.

Mr. Boyle

Given that Ireland's level of greenhouse gases has again started to go in the wrong direction——

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question on legislation?

Mr. Boyle

The Minister for Finance in his budget speech referred to the development of a sinking fund to counteract this problem but this is not included in the Finance Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should submit a question to the Minister.

Mr. Boyle

This proposed legislation has been referred to by the Minister for Finance.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

Mr. Boyle

When will the carbon fund Bill be introduced?

The Taoiseach

It will be introduced later this year.