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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 2006

Vol. 615 No. 5

Competition (Amendment) Bill 2005 [Seanad]: Report Stage.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 4, between lines 33 and 34, to insert the following:

"(6) A person who contravenes section 15B shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable to the penalties provided by this Act for breach of sections 4 and 5.".

We had a long and rather tetchy discussion on this with the Minister on Committee Stage. I suggested that, if he were feeling so tetchy, he might send the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Killeen, who is much more malleable on such matters. I am therefore delighted that he is present today. I know that we will have a much more constructive debate on the issues.

Hear, hear. We might even get amendments passed.

I do not intend to rehearse everything I said in the committee. It was a very long Committee Stage, which I am sure the Minister of State has had a chance to read in detail. Suffice it to say the amendment is the straightforward insertion of a new subsection (6) in section 1 to state that a person who contravenes the new section 15B shall be guilty of an offence and liable for penalties provided by the Act for breach of sections 4 and 5 of the parent Act.

Having read over the response of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, to me in the committee, it seems there is a lack of clarity regarding why this set of offences — I will not fill up my time reading the new section 15B — should have been treated in this way when there are other matters, including the introduction of "hello money" and retail price-fixing by a wholesaler, which in most circumstances are regarded as very serious. Why should they not be regarded as serious enough to warrant criminalisation escapes me.

The Minister said that although predatory pricing is a criminal offence under section 5, as we know, that the new section 15B relates to similar practices. He has conceded the point that they are similar to those criminalised in section 5. They include the issue of "hello money" and other matters I have mentioned. However, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment went on to tell the Select Committee on Enterprise and Small Business: "Due to the fact that both the conduct and questions are not prohibited in all cases, it would be inappropriate to criminalise those particular activities". I am simply unclear about what that means. Further in his reply the Minister stated: "civil prohibition has the advantage of allowing aggrieved parties or the Competition Authority to proceed quickly in court to challenge any suspect conduct or practice". That is well and good.

I will not labour the issue any further as we had a long debate on a similar amendment on Committee Stage. I hope that the Minister of State has had a chance to reflect on the issues and will not consider himself bound to reject the amendment. It will be interesting to see whether he will set the tone of how the debate proceeds by showing that, having reflected on the points made on Committee Stage, he is willing to accept amendment No. 1 and other Opposition amendments that are appropriate.

I rise to support amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Howlin, but my opposition to the Bill remains as firm as it was at the outset. I have no intention of rehashing the committee debate, but the Minister appeared to sit on the fence on this issue. After resisting pressure from lobbyists representing big business, when the RTE programme by Eddie Hobbs came along the Government fell into the lap of big business. This Bill will have a disastrous effect on small retailers across the land. It is most unfortunate that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has caved in to pressure from the likes of the Irish Business and Employers Confederation. The Bill will in no way enhance the services that the people of this State receive, so my opposition to the Bill remains.

The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, asked me to convey his regret that he cannot attend today's debate due to his involvement in a promotional tour. His regret at his inability to attend comes second only to mine in this matter.

Is his promotional tour to promote himself?

Not at all. He is undertaking an important promotional tour on behalf of the country from which we hope positive results will emerge.

Although Deputy Howlin described the Committee Stage debate as somewhat tetchy, I found it quite entertaining to read.

It was entertaining only in the debate on my amendment.

However, I do not intend that the remainder of the proceedings will be quite as entertaining.

Amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Howlin is designed to criminalise behaviour that will be prohibited under the Bill but, as the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, explained on Committee Stage, the prohibitions contained in the Bill are not per se offences. In other words, the conduct in question is not prohibited in all cases. That answers the question that Deputy Howlin raised.

Anti-competitive agreements and decisions or concerted practices by associations or undertakings are already prohibited under section 4 of the Competition Act 2002. Such hardcore cartel-type conduct is regarded as among the most serious of anti-competitive offences. However, the amendment seeks to deal with unilateral conduct on the part of a single undertaking. Such conduct is prohibited under the Bill but is less serious as it cannot amount to a cartel-type activity. Therefore, a civil prohibition has a number of advantages in that it allows the aggrieved parties or the Competition Authority to proceed quickly to court to deal with the issue. In addition, Deputies will be familiar with the rule of reason approach to criminal offences, which comes into play in this instance.

For those reasons, it would be inappropriate to accept amendment No. 1.

I anticipated that the Minister of State might rehash the same arguments. Has he had any dialogue with the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, who seems to argue that offences should be criminal offences and administrative penalties are inappropriate. Obviously, Ministers differ despite the consequences.

So much for consistency.

I will not take up more time making arguments I have already made, given that the Minister of State's approach is simply to follow his riding instructions on the matter. However, I will make this final point. The Minister of State said that not all instances of the activities prohibited by subsections (1) to (4) of the new section 15B will necessarily be outlawed. However, subsection (5) provides: "conduct described in subsections (1) to (4) shall not be prohibited unless it has as its objective or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition in trade in any grocery goods in the State or in any part of the State." The import of amendment No. 1 would be that, once that criterion is met because the person contravening section 15B has been deemed to have had the objective of preventing or restricting competition, the person should be considered to have committed an offence. The bar is already provided in subsection (5) of proposed new section 15B, but the Bill currently provides no appropriate sanction once that bar is reached if the activity is not — to use the interesting and amusing phrase employed by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment on Committee Stage —"hardcore" prevention, restriction or distortion of competition. Amendment No. 1 proposes that such activities should incur the same sanction as other anti-competitive practices such as predatory pricing, which are criminalised under section 5 of the parent Act.

Three differences need to be taken into account. First, the operation of a cartel is quite separate from the unilateral situation described in amendment No. 1, which might include within its scope some pro-competitive activities that would also need to be provided for. Second, civil prohibition has the advantages I set out in that a contravention can be dealt with much more quickly and easily. Third, the rule of reason approach to criminal offences is an overriding concern in this instance. In view of all three concerns, I strongly believe that amendment No. 1 should be rejected.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 2 in the name of Deputy Hogan arises from committee proceedings. Amendments Nos. 3 and 4 are alternatives. Amendments Nos. 2 to 4 will be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, to delete lines 34 to 49 and in page 5, to delete lines 1 to 32 and substitute the following:

"15B.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, all arrangements, decisions, and practices, by grocery undertakings, which have as their object or effect, the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition in trade in grocery goods, in the State or any part of the State, shall be prohibited, including in particular, without prejudice to the generality of this subsection, those which—

(a) directly or indirectly attempt to compel or coerce another grocery goods undertaking, whether by threat, promise or any means, to resell or advertise for resale any grocery goods at -

(i) a price fixed directly or indirectly by the first mentioned grocery goods undertaking, or

(ii) a price above a minimum price fixed directly or indirectly by the first mentioned grocery goods undertaking,

(b) apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with any other grocery goods undertaking,

(c) directly or indirectly compel or coerce, whether by threat, promise or any means, any grocery undertaking to make a payment or grant any allowance for the advertising or the display of grocery goods, or

(d) directly or indirectly compel or coerce, whether by threat, promise or other means, another grocery undertaking to make any payment or grant any allowance to a retailer in respect of the provision of space for the display, marketing or sale of grocery goods within a retail outlet.

(2) Following the commencement of this Act and without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1), the Minister may make such regulations as may be appropriate to prescribe any additional arrangements, decisions or practices that are contrary to section 15B(1) or to provide for any related aspect required for the effective enforcement of this section 15B(1).

(3) Nothing in this subsection shall affect any right of the Authority to bring proceedings for an offence under section 6 of this, or of any other person to issue proceedings under section 14 of this Act.".

Amendment No. 2 deals with predatory pricing, which is I suppose the principal issue in the Bill that has been the subject of dispute between the Government and the Opposition parties.

During the course of proceedings on Second Stage and Committee Stage, the Minister put all his eggs in one basket by stating that section 5 of the Competition Act 2002 should continue to be the mechanism by which predatory pricing is banned. However, no substantive legal arguments have been proven in court in this jurisdiction to show that predatory pricing is banned, so the Minister is reliant entirely on European law. Furthermore, abuse of a dominant position has been defined only in one case, which involved the Drogheda Independent newspaper. In that case, dominance was defined in such a way that the company was not deemed to be dominant even though it had 65% of the local market. If we accept that retailers of groceries and other products are to be adjudicated not to be dominant if they control 65% of the market, an awful lot of products will come under threat from big players.

The fundamental difference between the Government and the Opposition is that the Government is on the side of big business but we are on the side of maintaining competition in a market that is not concentrated in the hands of a few players. Whereas predatory pricing would remain a grey area under the Bill as it stands, we want to ban the practice explicitly under the Bill so that there would be no doubt about whether the law in this jurisdiction allows a dominant player to put smaller, more localised competition out of business. Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 are worthy of reflection.

The whole basis for abolishing the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order 1987 is to ensure the rebates and discounts available to retailers can be passed on to consumers. The Government has said that the free market will look after that.

Unfortunately, in the real world, major retailers will, in metaphorical terms, screw the small indigenous suppliers. Regardless of whether they supply sausages, bread, meat or whatever, they will come under enormous pressure, as they do at present. Such rebates are pocketed by the retailers, to the value of €2 billion in profits for a company like Tesco. They are not passed on to the consumers and, consequently, Members wish to see a mechanism which will enable that to happen.

Moreover, the multiples target small shops in a localised area, on a particular basis and restrict any special offers they might have to that locality. For example, a multiple could have a restrictive offer whereby a litre of milk would cost 10 cent while consumer purchases would be restricted to one or two units. Nothing in this law will prevent that from taking place. If this legislation passes without amendment, it will affect 137 shops in the Minister of State's constituency which are trying to compete with predation in their local community.

Everyone should be clear in this respect. If the legislation is passed in its current form, there will be nothing to stop large multiples with significant funds putting others out of business in a local community. Any special offers which a multiple might make would only be available, if it so wishes, within a small geographical area. There will be no obligation or compulsion to make such an offer available nationwide. The only basis on which a multiple will restrict an offer is to put its competition out of business. Hence, the non-restriction of offers should be made explicit.

Members have heard the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, assert that he wants to ensure that some aspects of the groceries order are enshrined in competition law. This means that he wishes to ban resale price maintenance and so-called "hello money". He wants to ensure that unfair credit terms are not imposed and that there is no obligation to compel people to pay for advertising allowances.

Unfortunately however, all these objectives are dealt with in section 15B(5), which effectively states that one must prove dominance before any of these activities are banned. Hence, small retailers will be expected to take cases against the large multiples if the latter are driving the former out of business. However, under the Competition Acts it would cost a fortune for such a retailer to make a case to the Competition Authority with the attendant barristers, solicitors, economists and required analysis. It could be another way to put them out of business. How can one expect a small retailer or supplier to take on the might of big business to prove what should be enshrined in law, namely, a complete ban on predatory pricing?

The proposed amendments will go some way toward ensuring a level playing pitch, genuine competition and choice for consumers so that big business will not put small players out of business in the local community through predation. I ask the Minister of State to reflect on the required balance in respect of the sale of products in this small country. Choice and diversity are required, as is a level playing pitch. Moreover, one must define dominance, which has not been defined satisfactorily in this jurisdiction. We should not rely on section 5 of the Competition Act 2002 as it would be very expensive to test. Will the Minister of State accept these amendments as a basis on which we can proceed and ultimately ensure proper competition in the marketplace across a wide range of consumer products?

As Deputy Hogan rightly stated, as far as most Members are concerned, this is the most important focus of the Bill. While this is not a lengthy Bill as far as the number of sections are concerned, it will have a major impact on the manner in which the operation of the grocery trade will be re-regulated or deregulated. There are genuine concerns among the existing players that this will have the impact of killing off the smaller players. All the reassurances Members have received from the Minister in recent months have not succeeded in abating those fears. While the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, has asserted he knows such matters in his heart, we need clarity in this respect.

I greatly fear that the core issue of predatory pricing will not be addressed. In all his responses on Second Stage and on Committee Stage, the Minister has relied on the fact that section 5 of the parent Act, that is, the Competition Act 2002, deals with the issue of predatory pricing. The problem is that he relies on European Court judgments in this regard. In my Committee Stage speech, I pointed out a difficulty in respect of that reliance. The Minister also acknowledged that no domestic judgments exist to give clarity in this regard. It always strikes me as odd when parliamentarians of any shade or hue prefer to rely on judicial decisions rather than on clarity of legislation to protect a vital interest.

Amendment No. 3 is in my name and seeks to insert a relatively simple new clause: "A retailer (whether or not it enjoys a dominant position) shall not engage in predatory pricing or any other unfair conduct in relation to price which is likely to eliminate or significantly reduce competition." From the Minister's perspective, the amendment's greatest weakness is its clarity. It sets out the objective that all Members are agreed upon. However, inserting such a clear objective into legislation must frighten the horses or something. Perhaps it was unusually candid of me on Committee Stage to note that the amendment's weakness is that it does not define the issue of predatory pricing. However, the Minister has done so in his utterances. He has stated that we all share an understanding as to what constitutes predatory pricing. However, that is not the case. As Deputy Hogan has rightly noted, the core issue is that reliance on section 5 of the Competition Act 2002 implies a reliance on the establishment of a dominant position.

On Committee Stage, the Minister took issue with the amendment I tabled and stated that it was contradictory in that it sought to deal with the issue of predatory pricing while simultaneously dealing with it in cases where an individual predator did not have a dominant position. He appeared to believe that this was a contradiction in terms. However, it is only a contradiction in terms if there is clarity as to what dominant position means and as I pointed out, no such clarity exists. I hope the Minister of State will take careful note of this point.

The issue of what constitutes a dominant position is anything but clear. All we can go on is European law, and in United Brands v. the Commission in 1978, the European Court of Justice defined dominant position as:

[A] position of economic strength enjoyed by an undertaking which enables it to prevent effective competition being maintained in the relevant market by giving it the power to behave to an appreciable extent independently of its competitors, customers and ultimately of its consumers.

This judgment obviously attached a considerable weight to the notion of what constituted a dominant position.

What percentage of the market constitutes a dominant position? As I tried to demonstrate on Committee Stage, there is no clarity on that issue. The threshold of dominance is an important consideration because the market share possessed by an undertaking may be a crucial factor in determining whether the European law as transposed into Irish law has been breached. However, the problem is that there is no definitive rule as to what percentage of market share will come into the scope of Article 82, transposed into Irish law by the Competition Act. In the United Brands v. the Commission case, a share of 40% to 45% of the banana market in a relevant member state was deemed by the court to be sufficient. Hence, a market share of 40% to 45% was determined to be dominant. However, in the Hoffman-La Roche case the European Court of Justice ruled that a firm was not in a dominant position holding 43% of the market, for vitamin B3 in that instance. In the Virgin Atlantic Airways Limited v. British Airways plc, the European Court of Justice found that an undertaking with a market share less than 40% was, in fact, a dominant position as understood by Article 83.

As I indicated on Committee Stage, the Minister is giving us firm assurances that the issue of predatory pricing is dealt with in the European law under Article 83, transposed into Irish law by section 5 of the Competition Act 2002. The problem is the reliance therein on the issue of what is dominance. There is no clarity in that regard, nor could the Minister indicate what dominance is. That is why I tabled amendment No. 3 to detach the issue of dominance where there is, as I have suggested, "predatory pricing or any . . . unfair conduct in relation to price [this is the crucial bit] which is likely to eliminate or significantly reduce competition".

To detach that obvious anti-competitive practice from any notional threshold of the market is an important consideration. If the Minister of State will regard that as contradictor, as the senior Minister did on Committee Stage, he lacks the understanding to grasp my intention and that of most who have come to address this issue, that is, to create certainty in the law on this critical issue of the avoidance of predatory pricing, the elimination of competition and the creation of dominance in the market over time by wiping out the competition, either in parts of the country or in the whole of the country.

From my perspective, this is the most critical issue. We debated the issue at length and I will not go through all the jurisprudence that the Minister bantered with us on Committee Stage. I seek this final opportunity for us on this side of the House to address real concerns which have not been addressed in all the utterances of the Minister on this issue to date, that predatory pricing will not follow from this enactment and that it will not create dominant players to the exclusion of smaller or weaker players in the groceries market henceforth.

We are at the nub of the problem with this issue of predatory pricing. If it is not dealt with properly, it will allow the big bully-boy operators to force smaller operators out of business. It is as simple as that and it could not be put in simpler language. That is what will happen.

It is interesting that the Minister has removed himself from the situation today. He scampered out of the country because he probably could not face more criticism from, first, the Opposition and, second, his backbenchers.

Sharing the blame.

The Minister of State would have to agree that Fianna Fáil traditionally claimed to be on the side of the small man and woman, but this Bill gives the lie to that proposition. It is certainly official now that Fianna Fáil, including the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, irrespective of what he might state later, is on the side of the big man and woman and to hell with the ordinary small operator, the small grocery man, the small supermarket or the small convenience store. That is the bottom line on this legislation. The issue of the dominant position must be addressed. If it is not, it will create problems and they will never be resolved.

Predatory pricing must be outlawed regardless of whether a player is deemed dominant. There should be no qualification in that regard. It is important that all predatory pricing be outlawed, whether that trader is dominant or not. That is a repetition of what I said. The reason I repeat it is that I want to impress it upon the Minister of State. I hope he will have sufficient leeway, in the absence of his senior Minister, to give way to some degree on this.

Another issue, which must be addressed in this Bill or which otherwise will be abused, is that there should be no restriction on offers. That is a clause which must be included in the Bill. Otherwise a dominant operator will use this to advertise a litre of milk for sale at 10 cent, for example, where there will be only one litre of milk for sale at that price and every other litre will be sold at a substantially increased price. That is unfair competition. If somebody offers an item for sale at a greatly reduced price, then there should be an obligation on that operator to sell as many of those units as a person wishes to buy. That would soon cut out that kind of nonsense. If it is not included in this Bill and the Government does not ensure it is a practice in which one cannot be engaged, it will be used again to ensure that smaller operators will be put out of business and dominant players will remain. They will then do what they like because they will have eliminated the competition, and prices will rise. That is what will happen.

I support these amendments. We all know that the large operators, the multinationals and the giants in the grocery trade, are especially devious and will do anything to squeeze out the smaller opposition. Unless we get the definition clear, smaller operators simply will not be able to muster the legal arguments. They will not even be able to afford them because they will be under so much pressure and they will be squeezed so much, so to speak, that their undertakings will not even be profitable at that stage. Unless we get it right now and give smaller operators some clarity on definitions, they do not stand a chance.

We have seen many times in the past how large operators are merciless in their marketing ploys and gimmicks. The consequence of that will be a much worse service for the people who deserve better. Smaller struggling retailers who provide jobs in local communities deserve better. I therefore hope that the Minister of State will consider these amendments carefully and take them on board.

I speak in favour of the amendments. Having taken my party pledge, I will honour it if there is a division.

Speak in favour and vote against.

People take the pledge as pioneers but they do not always keep it.

Deputy O'Keeffe cannot be all over the place. He is with one or the other.

Deputy McHugh from Tuam is in a bigger hole on his side of the House than I am. He would not be on that side only for the queue in his constituency and that is why he is there. I want to be straight and honest.

That is competition, which is allowed.

There are queues in our party in many counties. We do not have enough vacancies.

That is what happens under the Competition (Amendment) Bill 2005.

Predatory pricing is not a problem for us. It might be for the smaller party and the Minister, Deputy McDowell, speaking in Waterford on Friday referred to predatory pricing.

Exactly.

I am not a predator. I never was, nor was anybody belonging to me.

They are running the show.

In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Martin, of whom mention has been made and who is away on business planned a few weeks ago, he probably inherited this legislation. It always has been the tradition in this country that one accepts what one gets when one goes into office and then one changes everything as one goes along.

He did not.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, to the House. I sympathise with him on taking this legislation as he comes from the small county of Clare——

Exactly.

——where there are approximately 300 small grocers. I received a telephone call today asking was I to speak on this issue. I am reasonably familiar with Corofin and it is the Minister of State's backyard. There was a councillor who had a fine business down that way at one time and I had to canvass him on a Seanad issue or something. Such people will be affected by this legislation.

Predatory pricing is a real issue and everybody in this House has agreed that something must be done about it. This is the House where we make laws and we cannot tolerate monopoly situations.

I have picked up a few figures. While I do not like naming companies, the turnover of Tesco in Europe is €37 billion. It is in this country to make money. In rural parlance, money makes the mare go. We can examine the performance of its shares on the stock market. It is big into predatory pricing. It will target a small shopkeeper causing him pain, anger and suffering and get him out of the way. It will then have a monopoly, but who will pay the price? The poor will become poorer and the rich richer. That will be the result of the policy because poor people will have nowhere to go. Shops are falling by the wayside daily in villages in north Cork and County Clare because of unfair competition.

I did not have time to read the competition report but it has more flaws than any report ever printed because it was a hurried job.

The Deputy is right.

The report refers to Germany which has a groceries order. It has the lowest food prices in Europe serving a market of 90 million people.

The food industry will come under serious attack and small operators will be wiped out. The person who makes buns, jam, honey and other products will be affected by predatory pricing and monopolies. Predatory pricing is the central issue in this legislation. I fully understand the Minister of State's position, having had the same role on a number of occasions. He must do what he is told, otherwise things go wrong.

What about freedom of expression?

Freedom of expression is one thing that is left in the country. Everything else is gone.

The two for one mechanism will not work. People in rural Ireland will have to travel 30 or 40 miles for groceries and services. I appeal to the Minister of State to amend the legislation. My party has been the backbone of rural Ireland and it has always enjoyed supporting the small, entrepreneurial person. We have never been associated with big business, which will damage our society, grocery industry and small people.

The Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other socially minded organisations, which I respect because they look after needy people in our society, are opposed to this legislation and they made presentations in this regard to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business. If it were not for the committee chairman, Deputy Cassidy, we might not even be here. He put a mechanism in place to interview all the various agencies concerned with the order. Very few came up with proposals that would enforce what we want. This legislation has been imposed on us by an external organisation or by faceless people in another area. If the Minister had followed the joint committee, we would not be here now. This is an all-party committee comprising members of different political persuasions who have different views on society and ideologies but they support what I am saying. I fear we will have nowhere to get our newspaper, pound of butter or tea and sugar, which is part and parcel of the fabric of life. Predatory pricing must be ruled out. We will concede everything else if the Minister of State rules that out.

Those who tabled the amendments made a particular case, which is contradictory. However, following the contributions of other Members, it is clear a concern is shared by all Members about the impact of predatory pricing, particularly where a firm might be in a dominant position. The political point was made about who is protecting big business and who is the saviour of small business and so on. Approximately, 2,500 small businesses have gone to the wall over the past few years under the current regime, which some of the people who claim to protect small business also claim ought to be preserved. I have a difficulty with that logic.

That is like saying one should cancel the ambulance service because people die in ambulances.

That is an entirely inappropriate example as it pulls the emotive strings. It is grossly dishonest in the context of this legislation.

That is not the word we would use. Is the Minister of State referring to the Minister?

I refer to the example, not the Deputies or the Minister.

Even those whose intent is to be the saviours of the small player must concede that the consumer is the smallest player in this equation. Ultimately, the judgment that must be made in the legislation and the amendments is how best that is done in the short term and the long term. Members are concerned more about what will be achieved in the longer term by the predatory activities of a dominant player that ousts the competition and increases prices subsequently. That concern is best addressed by the legislation, as drafted.

The Minister of State does not believe that.

I do. I had the opportunity to be entertained by reading the Committee Stage debate. I had a discussion with the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment yesterday and I was briefed by officials. Like every Member who represents a rural constituency, I have heard conflicting views from various people and I had the opportunity to go into detail with a number of them on the points they made and examine the issue of dominance and the history of the groceries order. The more I examined the issue and considered cases raised, the more unsatisfactory I thought was the order. It should have been addressed long ago. Taking into account the necessity to have a long-term as well as a short-term solution to a series of difficulties, the manner in which the Minister has addressed them in the Bill stands the best chance. The amendments would considerably undermine the strength of the legislation.

Deputy Howlin discussed at length the issue of the threshold of dominance but it is difficult to pin down. It would be impossible to outline in legislation that, for example, a 25% share represented dominance.

If dominance is a criterion and it cannot be defined, no protection is in place. That is the issue.

I do not make that point.

Of course not.

Inserting a specific percentage to represent dominance would be entirely unsatisfactory.

One cannot determine what is dominance and, therefore, the bulwark the Minister of State suggests is in place is not there. It is an illusion.

The legislation contains a series of tests, which would be entirely destroyed by two of the amendments. It is impossible to deal with the two critical issues of dominance and predatory pricing without doing so in the context of the entire Bill. These issues also recur in later amendments but one cannot pick a sentence or two and make a fundamental change, which undermines not only the effect of this legislation, but, more importantly, the provisions of the 2002 Act, which, ultimately, are of great importance in the area of competition. The threshold can be determined by the various tests provided in the legislation and not by percentages. It is only of critical importance in the context of predatory pricing. A number of Members have failed to put the two together to make the equation that would create the difficulties they envisage and they have failed to give sufficient consideration and weight to the provisions of the legislation which address the issue considerably better than if these amendments were accepted.

The Minister of State is beginning to sound like the Taoiseach. That statement has all the clarity of the Taoiseach.

I am trying to deal with a number of entirely contradictory statements.

The Minister of State is trying to pour smoke to cover an impossible wicket he has been given.

I have been trying to deal with three separate issues.

The Minister of State has our sympathy.

It is difficult to defend against the cheap political shot with regard to who defends the small or big player. The amendments would also undermine the intent and efficacy of the legislation. Added to this, much woolly thinking represented on the issue so far in the debate has had the effect of undermining the case made for two of the amendments. It is hardly the fault of the Minister if there is no Irish case law to rely on in this area.

There is one case.

There are European Court of Justice rulings which, as everyone in the House is aware, apply here as they do in any other member state. Much of the language of the Bill reflects directly what is in European directives and, for that reason, benefits from the effects of European Court of Justice cases. If the Bill were written differently, it would not have that benefit. If it were written in the manner proposed by Deputy Hogan's long amendment, which seems to present the language of the section in more passive terms, that would have the effect of undermining the——

The Minister of State does not believe that. He has been told to say that.

I have not been told to say anything. I was given notes and background briefing——

Can the Minister of State not just say he is against it too?

The Minister should try to do something for Deputy Ned O'Keeffe.

Allow the Minister of State to respond.

When I spoke on the amendment I was thinking of Corofin village as the model.

If I were to think of Corofin village, I would probably have to make a declaration of interest. I had better stay away from that element.

It is obvious the groceries order protected neither suppliers nor businesses given that so many of them closed, something people seem reluctant to acknowledge. I have come to the view that the issue of predatory pricing is one about which people pretend to be concerned. It seems the way the arguments are being pursued——

The Minister of State should not say that about Deputy Ned O'Keeffe.

I am speaking generally, but I will be specific if I must. Ultimately, the job we are charged with doing is to present the most effective legislation. I have extended to Deputies my belief that everybody in the House is opposed to predatory pricing by those in a dominant position. I do not accept that these amendments serve in any way to improve the situation in that regard. In some cases they achieve the opposite. If amendment No. 2 were adopted, some of the catch-all provisions in part of it would have the effect of undermining the impact of the European Court of Justice case. It would also undermine existing legislation which is beginning to have a positive effect. We must be careful not to damage further the small player, generally the consumer.

On amendments Nos. 3 and 4, the case made by Deputy Howlin on predatory pricing by a non-dominant firm is a case difficult to sustain.

Why is dominance the issue?

Even if one were to take that as an if, which I do not, the benefit of predatory pricing for the dominant player can only be delivered on if the player is in a position and has financial muscle over a prolonged period to exclude others and force them to close. Not only would the firm need to do that, it would subsequently need to keep other players from entering the market.

Does the Minister of State not regard Tesco or Dunnes Stores as dominant?

It depends on whether they are involved in both areas. With respect, it is not my call to decide whether they are. The Competition Authority has a role in this and there is provision in the Bill to allow others who wish to do so to take a role in this area.

The small people are the consumers and there are many of them. There is much evidence they need protection. The way this Bill sets about providing protection is considerably more effective than any effect contemplated by these amendments. In these circumstances, I am not disposed to accepting amendments Nos. 2, 3 or 4.

The Minister of State has spoken about predatory pricing and dominance. Predatory pricing comes before dominance. It is after predatory pricing that dominant players enter the market and take over.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 55.

  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, Barry.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Brady, Martin.
  • Brennan, Seamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Callanan, Joe.
  • Carty, John.
  • Cassidy, Donie.
  • Collins, Michael.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cregan, John.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Curran, John.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Tony.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
  • Glennon, Jim.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Haughey, Seán.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Keaveney, Cecilia.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kelly, Peter.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kirk, Seamus.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O’Connor, Charlie.
  • O’Donnell, Liz.
  • O’Donoghue, John.
  • O’Flynn, Noel.
  • O’Keeffe, Batt.
  • O’Keeffe, Ned.
  • O’Malley, Fiona.
  • O’Malley, Tim.
  • Parlon, Tom.
  • Power, Peter.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilkinson, Ollie.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Boyle, Dan.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connolly, Paudge.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Crowe, Seán.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Enright, Olwyn.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Harkin, Marian.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Healy, Seamus.
  • Higgins, Joe.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McHugh, Paddy.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Murphy, Catherine.
  • Murphy, Gerard.
  • Neville, Dan.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Shea, Brian.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • Pattison, Seamus.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Ryan, Eamon.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Twomey, Liam.
  • Upton, Mary.
  • Wall, Jack.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kitt and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.40 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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