Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Apr 2006

Vol. 617 No. 6

Adjournment Debate.

Child Care Services.

Mr. Neville

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for allowing me to bring this issue before the House and I thank, in anticipation, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform with responsibility for children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, for taking the matter.

I raise an issue pertaining to community child care groups which have been allocated large-scale capital funding under the equal opportunities child care programme. The groups to which I refer are located in west Limerick and are based in Kilcolman, Newcastle West, Broadford and Rathkeale. These groups must be in a position to sign contracts with Pobal within a 12 month period and the timeframe ranges from June to November 2006. However, each group must meet specific pre-contract requirements to be in a position to draw down funding, including a revised capital work plan that demonstrates how the project can be achieved with the approved funding. The principal obstacle for these groups is that they received approvals for significantly smaller budgets than those for which they applied.

Between December 2004 and December 2005, the four community groups, all based in west Limerick, have been allocated funding. As I have stated, each project received approval for significantly less than was required. Thus, St. Colman's Childcare Service, Kilcolman, received approval for €1.1 million, whereas the required total comes to almost €1.4 million. The Desmond Complex Ability Resource Centre, Newcastle West, received approval for €1 million, while its original budget was for €1.8 million. Broadford Voluntary Housing Committee, Broadford, received approval for €1 million, while its original budget was €2.13 million, and Rathkeale Childcare Limited, Rathkeale, was allocated €1.4 million, whereas its original budget was almost €2.9 million.

Pobal, which was previously known as ADM, has advised each group that it should be able to implement its project at a cost of €20,000 per child care place without reducing the number of child care places originally targeted. Pobal argues that other community groups have been able to develop child care services for a cost of €20,000 per child care place. However, examples given by Pobal are not comparable to the projects in question as they all received some additional support, such as, having a site purchased and developed by the county council, already owning a site or receiving other funding. However, this is not the case for the groups in question.

In recent months, the groups have worked on their architectural plans and their costings in order to meet the funding requirements. Only one group, namely, the Desmond Complex Ability Resource Centre crèche, is in a position to proceed with its project at present. This is mainly due to the fact that the child care project is part of a larger project and costs have been reduced. For instance, its site purchase and development costs are significantly lower than for a stand-alone child care project.

The groups have met County Limerick Childcare Committee and its partner agencies and have agreed to explore how costs may be cut. However, they have also made the case to Pobal and to the Office of the Minister for Children for additional funding to make up the shortfall. I also make that case today.

All four applications, including architectural plans, were submitted between December 2002 and December 2003. No consideration has been given to the subsequent rise in site and building costs. The groups waited for almost three years for their applications to be processed by Pobal and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

County Limerick Childcare Committee can find no example of a group that has developed a child care project for €20,000 per child care place. When groups applied for funding, the €20,000 benchmark was not being used by Pobal or the DJELR. All four groups have already invested significantly in the development of architect plans required as part of their application. The new child care investment programme announced in December 2005 does not require architect plans for an application. An in depth needs analysis was carried out by all four groups prior to submitting applications to Pobal. One of the groups, Broadford Voluntary Housing Committee, has significant experience developing infrastructural projects, including a social housing and day-care centre, and has always delivered within budget. The EU component of the equal opportunities child care programme funding must be spent and reported by June 2007. A number of community capital projects approved but not implemented are under review by Pobal and may have their funding decommitted. This funding could be used to make these projects viable. If groups cannot proceed with projects, €4.5 million in infrastructural investment will be lost to west Limerick. The time and effort the groups have invested on a voluntary basis will be lost to a need which has been carefully researched and identified. The implementation of the four projects would have enormous benefit for the areas outlined and the west Limerick region in general.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. B. Lenihan)

As Deputies are aware, I have responsibility for child care under the newly established Office of the Minister for Children. I thank Deputy Neville for raising this matter.

Deputy Neville referred to particular groups in County Limerick who were approved capital grant assistance under the Equal Opportunities Childcare Programme 2000-2006. The programme has both an equal opportunities and social inclusion perspective. It aims to increase the supply of centre-based child care places by 55%, or 31,300 additional places, by the end of the programme. Current forecasts of impact suggest that it will ultimately create at least 40,000 new child care places, of which more than 26,000 are already in place. The allocation for the equal opportunities child care programme is now almost €500 million. As the Deputy is aware, the four child care projects to which he referred in his motion have been approved a total of €4.5 million in capital grant assistance.

Many child care services throughout Limerick city and county have benefited from grant assistance under the programme. To the end of December 2005, funding of more than €28 million was allocated for child care in Limerick city and county. This funding is leading to the creation of more than 1,700 new child care places and supporting almost 1,500 existing places throughout the city and county.

In the case of the community-based not-for-profit capital projects approved under the programme, the value for money criterion referred to by the Deputy which is being applied is that the maximum cost per place created should not normally exceed €20,000. Given the enormous sums being invested in child care facilities by the Government, and the ongoing and welcome development of new projects throughout the country, I am sure the Deputy will agree that there is an onus on us to ensure that value for money remains a key criterion to be used when assessing project proposals.

The four projects in question have been approved indicative amounts of funding, subject to further development of the proposals and external appraisal by a building specialist. All four groups have been in contact with and are receiving support from Limerick County Childcare Committee. They have met other groups in the area that have been approved indicative funding. I understand they are working together to reduce the costs of their projects. I further understand that Limerick County Childcare Committee has been supplied with a list of large-scale capital projects that have progressed within the €20,000 per child care place limit. There have been in excess of 200 large scale capital projects approved under the programme to date, all of which were subject to the value for money criterion. Applicants were able to provide child care places within the criterion, and in some cases for significantly less than the €20,000 maximum.

I also note that the amounts approved to the four projects in question are at the higher end of the scale in terms of large-scale capital grants approved, varying from €1 million to €1.4 million. Only 24 groups nationally have been approved a capital grant in the region of €1.4 million or more. Deputies will appreciate that if the benefits of the programme are to be felt throughout the country, it is important that funding is not concentrated on a small number of projects and that a national and regional spread of approvals is achieved to meet local needs.

I understand that one of the groups in question is in a position to proceed soon. I hope the current contacts with Pobal will allow the groups to agree revised plans in the not too distant future. It is open to any group to formally appeal the level of funding approved. However, I am not aware that any of the groups in question has done so to date. I hope contact will be maintained with Pobal to ensure these projects become sustainable.

It is only fair to emphasise that the child care programme has been central to the development of child care in Ireland. I expect the new national child care investment programme, which will run from 2006 to 2010, and which was announced in this House by the Minister, Deputy Cowen, in his Budget Statement last December, will be equally effective.

The Government is taking a serious and long-term approach to child care by developing sound policies and substantial programmes of investment which will ensure the future welfare of our children and assist their parents in their daily lives. The Government has fully demonstrated its commitment in this regard and it is my intention to demonstrate my personal commitment to these issues during my term as Minister with responsibility for children.

The two Senators from the west Limerick area raised the matter in the Seanad this afternoon. Deputy Cregan has also raised the matter with me. I will examine it to see how progress can be made.

Crime Prevention.

Mr. Costello

The Minister will be aware of the daylight robbery of €1.5 million cash in transit in the past three weeks and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform wringing his hands in dismay at the failure of his nonsensical voluntary code to prevent it happening. It is totally unacceptable that there is no statutory code in place to regulate the delivery of large sums of money by private security firms. Many of the large private security firms operating here are not even licensed to operate here.

The Private Security Services Act was passed in 2004, the purpose of which was, first, to licence the private security industry, which we all know to be a burgeoning industry with numbers far in excess of the combined Army and Garda, and, second, to establish proper standards for the industry. However, the Minister's intervention and meddling in the work of the Private Security Authority has resulted in a voluntary code of practice being established which is honoured more in its breach than in its observance by the security firms. The security firms have been laughing all the way to the bank. The €1.5 million has been stolen with ridiculous ease because none of the "gentleman's agreement" with the Minister was implemented by the firms delivering the cash. They agreed the agreement but they did not bother to implement it, and the Minister did nothing to ensure they would implement it.

Likewise, the Minister's stewardship of the Garda has been just as haphazard and inefficient. There was no Garda escort on any of the three recent large deliveries amounting to at least the €1.5 million which was stolen. Just as it might be in "Keystone Cops", the local gardaí where the large sums of money were being delivered were not informed about the deliveries in their area of jurisdiction. They were totally ignorant of the delivery. Once again, the Minister's ineptitude and arrogance has put the lives of security personnel at risk and given another victory to the criminals.

The Private Security Authority, which is up and running for some time, is obliged under the law to provide a strategic plan and lay it before this House. As this has not been done, the authority is in breach of its own statutory requirements. We have been working on this legislation since 2001. I had to raise the matter with the Taoiseach on a couple of occasions to get the Minister to move on it. Eventually it was passed in 2004. It took the Minister until 2005 to set up the authority, and having done so, he provides a voluntary code rather than the statutory code provided for under the legislation. Nothing has come before this House in terms of the plan of the authority in regard to licensing practices and standards that must be implemented. It appears that we are passing legislation in this House, the Minister is bypassing it and the body set up to ensure the matter came before the House once the plan had been drawn up has not done so. We must have answers as to what is happening in this area before more lives are put at risk and more cash is stolen.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I am giving this reply on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell.

The Minister shares the Deputy's concern and that of the public in general, with regard to the recent robberies of cash-in-transit. He condemns utterly the three recent robberies. Deputies may be aware that another robbery was attempted on a security van in north Dublin this morning, which the crew were thankfully able to foil. The gangsters who perpetrate these acts cannot and will not be allowed to commit such crimes with impunity. Deputy Costello went a little far in suggesting that the Minister shares some culpability with regard to these events.

Mr. Costello

He does. He is the Minister.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Minister was not involved in these events. Others were.

Mr. Costello

Has he witnesses?

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Minister utterly condemns what they do. He welcomes the opportunity initiated by Deputy Costello to state the present position regarding standards within the cash-in-transit industry, and the moves that have been and are being made to ensure that such incidents will not succeed in the future.

Last year the Minister called on the main players in the cash-in-transit sector of the industry, which included the financial institutions, security companies, the Garda Síochána and the Central Bank, to draw up an agreement on a voluntary basis for handling cash deliveries in a safe, secure and efficient manner. The agreement was signed last June and the Minister understands that progress towards implementation had been made in the course of the past year. This code of practice represented a major step forward in this area and set out an integrated end-to-end solution for major cash movements in the State.

On Monday, in the wake of the recent robberies, the Minister met Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy and the chief executive of the Private Security Authority, Geraldine Larkin. While noting that progress has been made in terms of implementing the code of practice, the Minister expressed his deep concern that recent robberies highlighted the fact that procedures within the code appeared to have been flouted by security companies. The Minister finds these lapses in standards completely unacceptable. These incidents raise serious questions about how the cash-in-transit business is to be managed and regulated in the future. Having heard the Garda Commissioner's report on these recent incidents, it is clear to the Minister that a voluntary code, which encompasses standards of safety and good practice, is not working.

Mr. Costello

That is what it was set up for.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Minister called on the Private Security Authority to press ahead with its plans to introduce licensing for security companies operating in the cash-in-transit sector. Adherence to the provisions in the code of practice will form an integral part of any licensing regime. Any company not in compliance with the standards in the code will not be licensed to operate within the cash movement sector.

The Private Security Authority established in 2004 puts the regulation of the Irish private security industry on a statutory footing for the first time. It is already an offence for unlicensed companies to operate in sectors such as door security and security guarding, and the authority continues to roll out licensing on a phased basis for companies involved in other parts of the private security industry.

There is provision within the Private Security Services Act 2004 for mandatory licensing of the cash-in-transit sector. It was intended to introduce licensing of the sector at the end of a voluntary compliance period where the industry would be given time within which to bring its standards up to the requisite approved standards, which would form the basis for licensing. The Minister finds now that radical lapses in standards have occurred and, as a result, he has been advised by the chief executive of the Private Security Authority that she will bring forward proposals for the introduction of mandatory licensing as soon as possible.

Mr. Costello

That was the whole purpose of the legislation.

Mr. B. Lenihan

As the Deputy knows, the legislation provided for other matters too.

Mr. Costello

It was for licensing.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The Minister has further called a meeting with key stakeholders including the major banks, the security companies and the Garda for tomorrow morning, which he hopes will show that a continuous strategy of improvement is under way. This meeting will give various stakeholders an opportunity to report on progress in implementing the code of practice and to flag particular areas of difficulty. The Minister is willing to listen to what the industry has to say but is not willing to accept any shortfall in standards of the kind witnessed in recent robberies. He has asked me to reassure the House that he knows only too well that the proceeds from these robberies go on to fund further organised crime. These crimes cannot be regarded as victimless as they represent a tangible threat to the stability of both civil society and our economy. The Government, through the new measures being put in place, will play its part in ensuring that such crimes become a thing of the past.

Stardust Inquiry.

Mr. F. McGrath

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise the matter of the Stardust fire tragedy.

I offer my deepest sympathy to all the families of the 48 young people who died and of those who were injured. I also pay tribute to the families for their bravery, courage and dignity. I am calling on all Members of the Oireachtas to support my demand to hold a fresh inquiry into the terrible fire, and to support the families in their quest for truth and justice. This is not a time for sitting on the fence or for more talk. Now is the time to support the families with action.

The fire that engulfed Dublin's Stardust nightclub in the early hours of St. Valentine's Day 1981 killed 48 young people and injured and disfigured many more. Countless others will continue to suffer the emotional scars of loss and grief for the remainder of their lives.

The official inquiry into the disaster found that the Stardust owners had acted with "reckless disregard" for the safety of their customers, but no charges were ever brought against them. They went on to win substantial damages for the loss of the nightclub complex. The inquiry did not go far enough. Why, despite numerous inspections of the Stardust by Dublin Corporation, now Dublin City Council, were the owners able to get away with repeated breaches of fire regulations and building by-laws? What caused the flames to spread across the vast nightclub so rapidly? Why were so many prevented from escaping by locked or chained fire exits? Why were steel plates fixed all over the toilet windows?

Eamonn Butterly, who owned the original Stardust club, wanted to re-open the club 25 years to the week after the disaster, on the same site, using the Stardust name. How coldhearted can one get? The Stardust victims want the site to honour the 48 people who died and not to see it become another profit-making pub for the owner, who was responsible for locking the emergency exits on the original Stardust. They want a full, independent inquiry to re-examine the causes of the disaster, given that new evidence has now been uncovered. They also want the Garda in the Phoenix Park to hand over the post-mortem photographs to their legal team to expedite matters. They are 99% ready and want to move on with the details, with their legal team.

I ask the Minister of State to use his clout to expedite this issue. When discussing it, we should remind ourselves that people with families are involved. Let us all remember the victims by supporting their families in a practical and sensible way. Each day, the families hold a vigil and a picket on the Stardust site. This will continue until their demands are met. Fudge or silence from the Government or politicians is not an option. I am challenging all Deputies to support the call for a proper inquiry. The facts speak for themselves. The new evidence is there, and any self-respecting government or opposition would act on it.

I welcome the families into the Dáil today. They are in the public gallery, and again I commend their courage and dignity. I also thank my Independent colleagues, Deputy Cowley from Mayo and Deputy Gregory, for their great support for the families on this issue. The Independent Deputies will stand by the families of the Stardust.

I urge all Members to support my call for a full inquiry into the Stardust fire tragedy. We owe it to the victims, their families and future generations.

Mr. B. Lenihan

I respond to this matter on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy McDowell.

I join in what Deputy Finian McGrath said about the relatives of the victims of this terrible tragedy, which all of us who lived in north Dublin at the time remember all too well. I can well understand why the relatives wish to establish by all possible methods more facts and more examination of what led to this terrible tragedy.

As the Minister has previously set out, discussions between his Department and representatives of the families led in 2004 to the presentation to the Department of a submission prepared on behalf of the Stardust victims committee and which examined a range of issues relating to the fire and its investigation. That submission was examined by the Garda Commissioner and the Forensic Science Laboratory but was found not to contain new evidence.

To be more specific, the Forensic Science Laboratory concluded that the report in question amounted to a different interpretation of matters already brought to the attention of the tribunal. Similarly, the Garda response concluded that no new evidence was forthcoming that would warrant the Garda Síochána revisiting the investigation and that the matters raised in the report had been addressed by the tribunal of inquiry.

At a subsequent meeting between the Stardust victims committee and officials of the Department, the committee was informed of this position and advised that in the absence of compelling new evidence, the establishment of a further tribunal of inquiry could not be recommended. It was made clear, however, that any further submission the victims committee or its representatives wished to make would be carefully examined. The Minister has reiterated this undertaking on numerous occasions since but as of yet, no further submission has been received. The Minister is more than willing to examine any further submission which the Stardust victims committee or its representatives wish to make.

As well as remaining open to examining any submission which might be forthcoming, the Minister has arranged for a copy of the February "Prime Time" programme to be referred to the Forensic Science Laboratory for analysis, with particular reference to whether it includes evidence or addresses issues not examined by the original tribunal of inquiry. That report is awaited and upon its receipt will receive careful attention and evaluation. It will also be made available to the victims committee and its representatives. The Minister has also indicated that he will meet the committee in the event that there is some new evidence which could form the basis of a productive discussion.

Schools Building Projects.

Mr. Crawford

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this important issue for the Adjournment and the Minister of State for replying.

Cavan No. 1 national school plays an important part in the education of young people in the busy town of Cavan. It is a Church of Ireland based school but many of its pupils are from different backgrounds and nationalities. I first got involved with this school more than ten years ago when numbers were small and the building was in an impossible situation for modern education. Money was provided for restructuring and heating but since then, as the figures will show, it has an enrolment of 61 with up to 20 on a waiting list. There are two teachers, with the principal dealing with 36 children, covering four classes in one room. There are 25 children in the other room.

They welcome the fact that they have been provided support under the devolved grant but, unfortunately, when the issue is being dealt with in a listed building, costs are very high. For example, under the regulations insisted on by An Taisce, wooden windows must be fitted all around the building even though only one wall can be seen from the road since the building is in a courtyard. They had hoped to get a summer grant scheme but that did not materialise.

It appears the voluntary sector will have to raise up to €200,000, which in a small parish is unacceptable. For the particular project the voluntary committee, led by the principal, has raised more than €30,000 and is in the process of organising a major auction in the next few weeks. Is it fair that a principal helping to organise this project, overseeing the building work and teaching full-time leaves the school at 12 midnight and is back at 6.30 a.m. to ensure everything is done and in order?

Since devolved grants were first introduced I have supported the system and believe it has delivered good value for money to the Department and to schools. The cost per pupil is only a fraction of the Department's system but in this case sufficient money has not been provided to take into account the structure of the building and the fact that it is a listed building and all that entails.

The past history of the school shows clearly that the chairperson, principal, other teachers and parents have more than met their obligations and will compare with any school in Ireland. I hope that common sense will prevail and that realistic additional funding will be made available to ensure that a usable good structure will be put in place.

It is likely that the numbers will justify a fourth teacher within the next 12 months, leading to the necessity for prefabs, which will curtail further the play area. This means the front space used for car parking will have to be drained, tarred and secured to have a decent playground.

Since this was a listed building an architect who specialises in the field had to be employed to meet An Taisce and Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government regulations and added more than €60,000 to the cost. Structural engineers, quantity surveyors and archaeologists had also to be employed. The type of building and the working timescale under the devolved grant limited the number of new builders interested and increased the cost.

In a letter to the Department, the principal said there was a need to provide access to all areas and a toilet for a child with spina bifida enrolled in September. The easiest option, because of its location, was to convert the school office and relocate that office. The principal is trying to deal with all situations.

When the devolved grant was granted there were a small number of non-English speaking children but September saw a large increase for all schools in Cavan, including Cavan No. 1 national school. The school now has a full-time language teacher but no classroom. She shares a room with a language support-resource teacher who is in attendance 17.5 hours per week. If the residence were furbished, it would house two rooms suitable for language teachers, learning support and so on.

The school is growing. Within the parish numbers are increasing dramatically. I ask that the position be looked at in a compassionate and caring way. The original quote which was more than €600,000 has been brought down to €500,000 but the grant will not meet it. This group has engaged in fund-raising in the past for previous projects. This project has raised more than €30,000. It hopes to raise more at the auction but it is not possible to raise €200,000.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I reply on behalf of the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin. I am pleased to have the opportunity to outline the position of the Department in regard to the building project at Cavan No. 1 national school, County Cavan.

The school is accommodated in a listed building of Georgian design. It has an enrolment of 61 pupils and a staffing of a principal teacher, one assistant teacher, one shared learning support-resource teacher and one language support teacher. I join in Deputy Crawford's tribute to principals of schools. The work they do is extraordinary. In a smaller school of this type the principal must perform teaching duties and the entire burden of administration falls on her shoulders. All that is done diligently and without complaint by the principals who serve the Department so well in that regard. In the larger schools the principal does not have to engage in intensive teaching duties. In those cases there is a large staff and pupil enrolment to manage.

The school was offered a devolved grant of €345,000 under the small schools scheme in 2005 to extend and refurbish the school. The board of management accepted the grant offered and proceeded with the architectural planning of the project. Generally, the Department of Education and Science is moving towards a model of devolving funding, responsibility and authority as appropriate for building projects directly to school management authorities. I agree with Deputy Crawford that, in general, the system has worked well. Devolving of funding to school management authorities allows them to have control of their projects, assists in moving projects more quickly to tender and construction and can also deliver better value for money. The assistance of the principals, the chairs and members of boards of management are invaluable with their local knowledge and their willingness to give of their time to forward these projects.

The small schools scheme was originally introduced on a pilot basis for 20 schools in the 2003 schools building programme. Owing to the positive response from schools the scheme was extended in the schools building programmes of 2004, 2005 and 2006. While appropriate for many schools, the Department is aware that the scheme is not necessarily suitable for all national schools seeking to refurbish their school building or to build new accommodation. It is not the intention of the scheme to leave schools with massive fundraising requirements. Rather, the level of funding should determine the scope of works undertaken. However, in some cases the school site or building can be problematic and this appears to be the case in the school in question. In other cases, the extent of the required work is too great for the funding available under the scheme. In such circumstances, schools have a number of choices. They can reduce the scope of intended works, fundraise to cover the shortfall or withdraw from the scheme and be considered for inclusion in the mainstream school building programme in line with the project's priority band rating.

As I stated, the board of management of Cavan No. 1 national school accepted the grant offered and proceeded with the architectural planning of the project. The extent of the building which the board of management can construct is determined by the sensitive location and nature of the site. The school subsequently applied for and received planning permission for the construction of two new classrooms, ancillary accommodation and external works subject to a number of conditions, including the requirement that all works be supervised by a suitably qualified archaeologist. Construction work commenced in December 2005 and is ongoing.

The board of management has submitted an application for additional funding which was considered by the appeals board which requested that further inquiries be made regarding the application. When the inquires are completed the application will be re-examined by the appeals board. The Department will continue to work with the school management to ensure an appropriate solution is found for the school and departmental officials will be in contact with the school shortly. I thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to outline the current position to the House.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 25 April 2006.