Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 May 2006

Vol. 620 No. 1

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach should have been a weather forecaster. His personal statement to the House earlier in respect of his comments last week about a former chief executive of Aer Lingus dealt in part with the flak that might have flown if he had waited until now to make it. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform said that Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats will be as thick as thieves before the general election, but I did not think the Taoiseach would take it that far.

I would like to ask the Taoiseach about the Government's proposed early child care supplement scheme, as distinct from the child benefit scheme which has been in operation reciprocally for many years and which everybody supports. On 30 January this year, an announcement was made on RTE that the Government intended to introduce a new early child care supplement, designed to deal with the cost of child care for children in this country. It was said at the time that the supplement would also be paid in respect of children who are not resident here. When we raised this issue with the Taoiseach, he indicated that the cost of the scheme would be approximately €1 million. On 31 January last, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, said the Government would carefully monitor the situation, particularly the cost. On 9 February, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, said the cost would be approximately €2.7 million. In a Dáil reply on 26 April, the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, announced that a cost of approximately €10.8 million would have accrued by the end of 2006. The Department of Social and Family Affairs has stated in recent days that the cost could escalate to approximately €30 million in 2007.

Mr. McCormack

The difference is just €20 million.

Mr. Kenny

Is there a firm estimate of the cost of the early child care supplement scheme? How can the Taoiseach explain the variations between the estimates of the Minister and the Minister of State, on the one hand, and the Department of Social and Family Affairs on the other hand? Does the Government intend to review the guidelines and the decision to extend the scheme to children who are not resident in the State?

The Taoiseach

I propose to give some background information about the scheme, without taking too long on it. The relevant European Union rule is an old one as it has been in place for 30 years. It applies to many——

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach is referring to the child benefit scheme. I know about that. I referred to the early child care supplement.

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy talking about the new scheme?

Mr. Kenny

Yes, I am talking about the early child care supplement, not the child benefit scheme. I know about the latter scheme.

The Taoiseach

The cost of the early childhood supplement scheme will depend on the take-up of the scheme. According to figures provided by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, 50,000 non-nationals claim child benefit in respect of 120,000 children. These figures are known. Of these, 900 families with 1,600 children are resident outside of Ireland. Based on the present position, there could be claims for 1,600 children. However, Members should consider developments since the House debated this issue earlier this year. Since March, or since all Members gave much publicity to the issue, claims for non-Irish residents in Ireland are arriving at a rate of approximately 275 to 300 per week. Until then, the figures were quite low.

Between 60% and 70% of the claimants are Polish. That is the reality. Although the scheme operated for 30 years, no one used it. However, after Members publicised it, they started to send in applications.

Mr. Timmins

The Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, issued the letters to every family in the State.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

That is the reality.

Mr. Rabbitte

They are worse than Willie Walsh stealing.

The Taoiseach

The Department receives 350 claims per week under EU regulations for children who are not resident in the country. Virtually all are nationals of accession states. Approximately 7,500 claims for non-resident non-Irish nationals have not been finalised. Based on claim uptake to date, it is anticipated that approximately 15,000 claims under EU regulations in respect of 25,500 non-national non-resident children will be processed this year.

At present, 1,600 non-Irish national children who are resident outside of Ireland are in payment. The numbers are quite small at present. While Deputy Kenny has not asked about child benefit payments, one can only make projections based on a consideration of the child benefit calculation. As for the early childhood supplement, the Department of Social and Family Affairs has only provided one estimate in which it stated that it is likely that approximately 10% of such claims will be finalised this year. Expenditure on these cases this year is unlikely to exceed €1.5 million. The Department has moved from its estimate of €1 million made at the beginning of the year and now states the figure could be between €1 million and under €1.5 million.

Mr. Kenny

This reply is nothing but mastery of confusion. Although I asked him not to comment on it, the Taoiseach has referred to the child benefit scheme. This question concerns the early childhood supplement, which resulted from the interest generated and the manner in which the issue was highlighted during the Meath and Kildare by-elections. Although this supplement was meant to have been paid in May, it will not be paid until September. Families at the margins still feel the effect of the serious cost of child care.

The Taoiseach stated that 1,600 children who live abroad were in receipt of this allowance. This is not the case. The scheme is not yet in payment. He has again confused it with the child care benefit scheme which has been in operation for 30 years and which all accept. The Taoiseach made the point that the Department of Social and Family Affairs has not commented upon the costs of this measure. However, I again remind the Taoiseach that in January, he stated it would cost approximately €1 million. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, stated it would cost €2.7 million——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister of State with responsibility for children, Deputy Brian Lenihan, gave a figure of €10.8 million and the Department of Social and Family Affairs gives a figure of €30 million.

Mr. McCormack

It is a bit mixed up.

Mr. Kenny

There is something of a mix-up in this regard and the matter should be clarified.

I recall that when the measure was announced, the Taoiseach stated he did not wish to publicise it too much in case others might hear about it and consequently lodge claims. Obviously, they have heard about it. When one announces such a scheme, it exists for the benefit of those for whom it is intended. The Taoiseach stated this scheme was intended to help parents of all nationalities meet the high cost of child care in Ireland. If the Taoiseach wanted to link it to child benefit, he could have done so. However, it was set up as a child care cost payment for the benefit of those with child care costs in Ireland. Nevertheless, it is now payable to children living abroad.

I again ask whether the Taoiseach has an estimate of the numbers of children abroad who will benefit from these child payments, which were intended to defray costs in Ireland? To clarify, I refer to the early childhood supplement and not to the child benefit scheme. I repeat that although the intention was to pay the supplement in May, it will not be paid until September. As Deputy Paul McGrath has pointed out, families on the margins now suffer seriously due to escalated costs.

Mr. McCormack

It will be before next May.

The Taoiseach

The scheme will be introduced in August and will be paid for the full period. It would not be a fair answer to the question to simply discuss the early childhood supplement without taking account of developments in child benefit. Members can see the manner in which the figures are rising. I can exclude it, if the Deputy wishes. As the child benefit figures rise and there are more claims from non-residents, the issues will ultimately be linked unless we change the regulations. However, I will accede to Deputy Kenny's request.

I refer to the early childhood supplement only. Based on all estimates and trends, on claims awaiting decision as well as ongoing claims, it is estimated there may be approximately 12,000 non-resident children under the age of six with an entitlement this year. The cost of such payments will be €9.5 million. However, the Department of Social and Family Affairs estimates that only approximately 10% of the claims will be dealt with this year. The actual expenditure in 2006 is unlikely to exceed €1.5 million.

Mr. Rabbitte

What is the Government's response to the strike today by those FÁS staff who it is proposed to forcibly relocate to the constituency of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, and the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Parlon? Is the Taoiseach concerned? Does he recognise the mounting concern about the decentralisation programme announced by the former Minister for Finance, Mr. McCreevy?

There is widespread concern, including on the Fianna Fáil backbenches. I welcome the support for the position I have repeatedly expressed in this House from so many Fianna Fáil Deputies. I am sure the Taoiseach read about it at the weekend. Perfectly sensible statements were made by Fianna Fáil Members. Such Members are interested in genuine regional balance and are genuinely interested in a decentralisation programme that is thought out, planned and negotiated. They are genuinely concerned about the damage that will be done to the coherence of governance as a result of going ahead with what was a blatant political stroke.

Can the Taoiseach tell the House of a single thing he has done to support his own spatial strategy? Will he explain to the House how the choice of the 53 centres, which were plucked according to the exigencies and requirements of local constituencies, supports the spatial strategy? Does he acknowledge he cannot proceed with the transfer of FÁS staff for the obvious reasons and arguments made outside this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Rabbitte

What does the Taoiseach have to say to the woman who appeared on television last night? Her spouse is in different employment in Dublin and her children are in education. She explained she does not know whether she has a job or what she will do. Can the Taoiseach tell her what she will do? If this applies in the case of FÁS and the probation service, why does it not apply to the other 34 specialised agencies?

If the Fianna Fáil backbenchers have made such comments publically, one can only assume they have told the Taoiseach privately and at parliamentary party meetings that they have the deepest concern regarding the Taoiseach pushing ahead with what was a calculated political stroke by the former Minister for Finance; that it is incapable of implementation, is damaging to joined-up Government, is uprooting families and is simply unworkable and that it is time to return to the drawing board to come up with a plan capable of implementation and capable of getting the support of those elements of the civil and public service which can easily transfer within the country.

Mr. McCormack

Bring back Mr. McCreevy.

The Taoiseach

FÁS is due to locate to Birr around Easter in 2009 under the decentralisation programme. I understand that the current dispute has arisen because FÁS, in the absence of an agreement with the unions, has proposed that all promotions in the head office would be conditional on candidates being willing to decentralise.

Mr. Costello

Agreement has been vetoed by the Department of Finance.

The Taoiseach

I understand that SIPTU contends that this breaches existing contracts of employment. The matter was referred to the Labour Court which made a recommendation last February. The court considered the written and oral submissions by the parties and noted the terms of the company-union industrial relations procedure agreement and said that it was in the opinion of FÁS that it was in breach of the consultation procedures provided for in that agreement. It made no ruling on the substantive issue of the relocation clause. Instead it recommended that the matter be referred back to the appropriate central body, at which level the issue should be teased out with a view to arriving at an agreed long-term solution in consultation with the parties involved.

Discussions have been held on three occasions under the Labour Relations Commission to see if progress can be made. The last of these meetings concluded this morning. The differences remain between the parties and are being addressed through ongoing dialogue. It would not be helpful at this point for me to get into the details of the elements of the negotiations between FÁS management and trade unions. Naturally I support using the established consultation and dialogue mechanisms and I hope these discussions lead to a resolution.

On the general points on the other issues, as I have said previously, all these issues must be done through negotiation. Decentralisation is a voluntary programme and it must be done by negotiation. That is the best way of it working through. Some of these programmes have been well advanced. Other ones are a considerable distance behind because there are industrial relations difficulties. As they are different in each case, it is not possible to give a generalised view. Some people have made progress and are moving quickly. With others the uptake is very low and there is very little action.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach has described the problem. I know what the problem is. I am asking him what the solution is. He is going on like the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, who believes that Brian Kennedy won the Eurovision Song Contest. This is not happening. Last night the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment claimed that there were more than 10,000 applicants. He did not say, however, that the majority of the applicants are people outside Dublin who want to transfer between various provincial towns and villages.

Mr. P. McGrath

He got that from the Taoiseach on "The Tubridy Show". He said that——

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte without interruption. It is Deputy Rabbitte's question and he does not need any help from Deputy Paul McGrath.

Mr. Rabbitte

I watched "The Tubridy Show" with fascination. Old friends are best. What does the Taoiseach have to say to the FÁS staff, of which only a small fraction is prepared to transfer? What is it about the probation and welfare service that makes any of the specialised agencies different? Does the Taoiseach acknowledge the finding of the Farrell Grant Sparks report that showed that the cost of replacing staff ranged between €51 million and €65 million? Is it not true that serious damage will be done to the way Government does its business in this small country, with senior civil servants criss-crossing the country merely because it is convenient today to locate the headquarters of a Department to where today's Minister happens to live? We know this will not last for very much longer. Does it mean that we change the headquarters of a Department every time the Minister changes?

It is not working and I am sure the Taoiseach will get someone to facilitate another interview with him so that he can back down further than he did the last time. As far as I can see, the last climbdown only extended to a tacit admission that the agencies cannot be transferred and that he is pretending that while the rest of it is intact, it will take a longer period. He very well knows that, as currently planned, it is not workable, is damaging to the coherence of Government and is uprooting families.

The Taoiseach told the House to read what Robert Putnam wrote and said that he is very concerned about uprooting communities. He is uprooting families in these circumstances who have put down roots in this city, have children in education, have spouses in other employments — often in the private sector — and he is proposing that they be scattered like Smarties to 53 different centres. That is not decentralisation; it is merely dispersal of civil servants for blatant political purposes.

The Taoiseach

I have said this so many times to the Deputy, but I will say it again. The last round of decentralisation was to approximately 20 locations. None of those has changed. The staff moved to those locations, are still there and have all worked very successfully there. It took longer than was envisaged in the early 1990s when we started the process, but they are in those locations, are working and are effective. I said to the Deputy last week, I said this time last year and I said in interviews last June and July — it is on the record — that we were never going to move 10,600 people in a short period and have it done by Christmas. That was going to be impossible, as I said last year and again recently.

Approximately half those people are already outside Dublin and trying to move to locations nearer their existing homes. The other half are mainly — although not all — young people who want to get out of Dublin. It is approximately 5,000 outside Dublin and 5,000 in Dublin. We already have good examples such as the Marine Institute, whose launch I will attend in one or two weeks' time. It moved to Galway.

Mr. Broughan

The Marine Institute is a new institute.

The Taoiseach

Only two people did not move.

Mr. Hayes

I am waiting for a few.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is a new institute.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

More than 100 people moved and only two did not. That institute is launching successfully in Galway. As I have said, there are problems with the agencies because there is not transferability between them. Some of the staff contend that there should be at lower levels but that arrangement does not exist at present. In the short term, approximately 2,500 civil servants can be moved. It will take a longer period to manage the situation in a way that does not affect the work relationship of any of the services to move to other locations. That has been worked with the Department. The agencies will be a more complex issue because, obviously, if staff do not want to work in an agency, there is a difficulty. That is true in the case of FÁS.

Regarding FÁS, the industrial relations machinery must be used to see if a resolution can be found. It is right for the management and unions to see if they can do this within the parameters set down by the Department of Finance which have been well tested through the movement of people to locations such as Letterkenny, Sligo, Limerick, Tipperary and Killarney over the years. It is not new or that extraordinary.

The figures I have seen show that 2,500 civil servants will move in the period up to 2008. That in no way exaggerates the kinds of figures that moved back in the mid-1990s when there were at least those kinds of figures. I know Deputy Rabbitte previously referred to it as an enormous switch to the whole system, but it is not. Those kinds of numbers moved on previous occasions. Regardless of which Ministers were in place, successive Governments moved on and nobody changed them. Nobody wanted to move and nobody has complained about the service to the public. A process exists and it should be followed.

Mr. Sargent

As, unfortunately, I will not have the opportunity to have a proper meeting with the Australian Prime Minister, I have been asked by the Green Party in Australia to ask the Taoiseach if he will question the Prime Minister about his record. A letter from Senator Bob Brown, leader of the Green Party in Australia, who speaks for many Australians states:

First of all thank you for speaking up about Australian Prime Minister on his visit to Dublin. Here are some items from his record. John Howard has signed off on the greatest raid of destruction of Tasmania's forests and wildlife; locked innocent refugees — men, women and children — behind razor-wire for years in Australian desert camps; backed Indonesia's military control of West Papua — though 77% of Australians believe West Papuans should be given a vote on self-determination; sent Australian troops to Iraq without the authority of the Australian Parliament and condoned Guantanamo Bay abuse of international law; ramped up uranium exports to boost the global nuclear industry; rejected an apology to Australia's stolen generation of Aborigines; this month's federal budget ignored more than 1 million Australian pensioners while removing all taxes from wealthy retirees' superannuation; and allowed Australia to be labelled the world's worst per capita greenhouse gas emitter among OECD countries pouring huge sums into coal mining while stripping funds from scientists researching solar energy.

We know of the Prime Minister's refusal to ratify the Kyoto Protocol. Has the Taoiseach questioned him about his record? Did the Taoiseach not almost boast yesterday about facilitating the illegal invasion of Iraq by turning Shannon Airport into a foreign military air base or did I hear him incorrectly? Does he need to be reminded that more than 100,000 people marched in this city alone——

An Ceann Comhairle

That has nothing to do with the question. The Deputy can only raise one issue.

Mr. Sargent

The Prime Minister of Australia is the issue. Will the Taoiseach clarify his position on the invasion of Iraq? Has he noted the Amnesty International report published earlier, which states the Government is burying its head in the sand on the issue?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot ask two questions on Leaders' Questions. The Chair has ruled on this previously. The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Sargent

Has the Taoiseach questioned Prime Minister Howard about his record, including on the Kyoto Protocol? If Ireland, which has such a bad record, can sign up and ratify the protocol, surely the Australian Government can. Has the Taoiseach made that point?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has made a number of points about what the Green Party of Australia would like to say to its own Prime Minister.

Mr. Sargent

I referred to the Australian people.

The Taoiseach

I stated yesterday that in 2003 we shared the concerns of others about the Iraq regime and its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction.

Mr. Boyle

What programmes? What weapons of mass destruction?

The Taoiseach

The Government decided it could not consider participating in military action against Iraq without a further explicit UN resolution to that effect. Other Governments, including Australia, interpreted the legal position differently and Australia decided it would take part.

Mr. Sargent

Does the Taoiseach still believe them?

The Taoiseach

I also said the presence of Australian troops in Iraq now is on a different basis. Since then, it has been sanctioned by UN resolutions and requested by Iraq's elected Government, which has made it clear that the assistance of international forces remains essential. I wish the new Iraqi Government of national unity well into the future.

The Deputy raised another issue on behalf of the Australian Greens but I will not talk to the Prime Minister again.

Mr. Sargent

Did the Taoiseach raise these issues with him?

The Taoiseach

I did not but, perhaps, if I get a chance, I will tell the Prime Minster to watch "Oireachtas Report" tonight.

Mr. Sargent

That is the kind of glib response I have to come to expect. I had hoped the Taoiseach would have taken the opportunity to outline what he said directly to the Prime Minister rather than giving the impression that they were as thick as thieves in condoning the illegal international war led by the US with Australia following on meekly behind.

Was the Taoiseach quoted correctly in boasting about the role Shannon Airport played in the initiation of the invasion of Iraq? Did he raise with the Prime Minister of Australia the fact that his country has not ratified the Kyoto Protocol? Did he raise the consequences of this not only in flooding but also the cost of home insurance in Ireland and elsewhere, energy use and the increasing costs of energy? If the Taoiseach had the opportunity, would he have said to the Prime Minister that he is condoning not just an ecocide but a genocide unless he ratifies the protocol and Australia moves to a society that goes beyond fossil fuels? Should the Taoiseach not take such opportunities if he is serious about future generations of this and other countries?

The Taoiseach

Shannon Airport had nothing to do with the initiation of the war.

Mr. J. Higgins

It had everything to do with it. Who is the Taoiseach trying to fool?

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach was in there at the beginning.

The Taoiseach

I was quoted correctly yesterday and I have outlined what I said.

Mr. J. Higgins

Shamefully.

The Taoiseach

What I stated is not in line with what Deputy Sargent said and he knows that well. The Government's position was that we could not consider participation in military action against Iraq without a further explicit UN resolution to that effect.

Mr. Gormley

Then the Government handed over the airport.

The Taoiseach

We went to great lengths to achieve that when we were members of the UN Security Council. We were useful in trying to maintain that position but when Ireland left the council, the situation moved in a different way. Other governments took a different position and they are entitled in a democracy to other positions.

Mr. J. Higgins

They are not entitled to invade another country.

Mr. Sargent

They are not entitled to break the law or to commit murder.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply, without interruption.

The Taoiseach

I did not discuss all the issues raised by the Deputy. I do not know what the Green Party does in Iraq but it should raise those issues with its own Prime Minister. I will not act as a messenger boy for the Green Party of Australia.