Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 2006

Vol. 629 No. 4

Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2006: Second Stage.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputies will recall that the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission Act 2003 provided for the setting up of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to administer the running of Dáil Éireann and Seanad Éireann. The commission came into being on 1 January 2004 and was provided with the necessary funds to carry out its functions for three years from that date. The initial three-year period will come to an end on 31 December 2006. Accordingly, an amendment to the 2003 Act is required to provide the commission with a fresh injection of funds so that it can continue its work for a further three years from 1 January 2007. It is for this reason that the Bill is before the House.

While I am a member of the commission, it is not a self-serving utterance to say that everyone will agree that the commission has performed its job admirably.

Mr. Howlin

It is self-praise.

Mr. B. Lenihan

It is also the considered opinion of the Minister for Finance that the commission has performed its job admirably under the able chairmanship of the Ceann Comhairle.

Mr. P. McGrath

Hear, hear.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The commission is composed of 11 members, ten of whom are Members of either the Dáil or the Seanad. These include the Chairman of Dáil Éireann, the Chairman of Seanad Éireann and one Member appointed by the Minister for Finance. The remaining seven members — four from the Dáil and three from the Seanad — are appointed from the Members of each House. The 11th member is the Clerk of the Dáil, who is designated as the Secretary General of the commission.

The amount proposed for the commission for the three years 2007-09 is €393 million.

Mr. F. McGrath

Big spender.

Mr. B. Lenihan

This figure has been agreed with the commission and, in the opinion of the Minister, represents excellent value for the taxpayer.

Mr. Howlin

My God.

Mr. B. Lenihan

The responsibilities of the commission include payment of the salaries and allowances of Deputies and Senators and payment of the salaries of the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The general election in 2007——

Mr. F. McGrath

It will be deferred.

Mr. B. Lenihan

——and a European election in 2009 will place extra financial burdens on the commission, for which the funding allocation provided for in the Bill will also cater. One item to note in the Bill is in section 3, where the functions of the commission are expanded to include the provision of translation services in respect of Acts of the Oireachtas. It is appropriate that the commission should have this function and it is taken into account in the funding to be provided.

The Bill also includes some minor amendments to a number of sections of the 2003 Act. In most cases their purpose is to provide clarification of functions or procedures where this has been considered desirable in the interests of full clarity and transparency.

I commend this Bill to the House. It will enable the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to continue with its excellent work which, as Members on all sides will agree, has proven to be of great benefit to parliamentarians of both Houses over the past three years.

Mr. P. McGrath

I also welcome the opportunity to speak on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2006. I declare an interest in that I have been a member of the commission since its foundation three years ago. It has been an honour to work with my colleagues and the Ceann Comhairle, who acts as chairman of the commission, to organise and run the Houses.

This has been a period of transition for Oireachtas Members. We have broken new ground in many areas and had to deal with difficult issues on occasion. Overall, it is a tribute to all those involved that we have only seen serious disagreement on one issue on one occasion in those three years.

We had a budget for the past three years of €293 million and it is important to note that we came in substantially under budget, despite the fact that we embarked on many new ventures in that period, taking on additional staff and expenditure. We have bolstered the Oireachtas Library service, something of a swan song for my time on the commission and I am very proud of it. There are now researchers who will be of considerable help and value to Members of these Houses. In the short time the service has been available, I have made use of it on a number of occasions and the people involved are excellent, as is the service they provide. I recommend it to those Members who have not used it yet.

We also provided additional staff for Members of the Houses, with each Member getting a second worker who could act as a PA or researcher, etc. That has worked well for Members and is evident in how they are doing their work. The commission displayed flexibility, tailoring Members' needs and space so they could fit their staff into what was available. The Deloitte report was also important to the commission and made recommendations on which we followed up.

We encountered a difficulty in the past year and a half that has exercised our minds at regular intervals since. In the past 48 hours I have seen some members of the commission around a table on six occasions as we tried to cobble this Bill together. In that context it is important to note what has been agreed. An amendment is being inserted into the Bill tonight and it is important for future commissions that we state what we are agreeing so that a future Ceann Comhairle and commissioners will not find themselves in difficulty when trying to provide money to fund a service.

This difficulty originated in mid-2005 when the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs asked the commission to assume responsibility for translation services for Bills that would come before the House. Traditionally there was a translation section, Rannóg an Aistriúcháin, within the Houses that provided an excellent in-house translation service. As a result of the introduction of new legislation that would place a huge burden on everyone in terms of translation, a home had to be found for this service. The Minister suggested the commission should be the home for this facility but we had difficulty with that idea because it was not within our initial remit and we did not have any competence in the area because the translation section already operated, although it was doing a different, restricted job.

When push came to shove, letters were exchanged and meetings took place to clarify the situation and our responsibilities. There has been such an increase in demand for translation work that people who are competent in translating into the first official language can now offer their services at a premium. Anyone competent enough to do this who sets up a company offering translation services would do extremely well in a short time. I was told today that translation is worth 35 cent per word. I volunteered my services, saying I would do the easy words and would let someone else do the hard ones.

We entered into correspondence with the Minister to clarify the situation. On 6 November 2006, the Minister wrote to the Ceann Comhairle to say he had consulted with the Minister for Finance and, subsequently, brought the issue before the Government. He made it clear at the outset on the Government's behalf that provision of additional resources, if required, would not be an issue. He assured us on behalf of the Government that the necessary funding for translation services, including staff and other costs, would be provided during the next funding period. That was a direct commitment that we would be provided with the additional funds necessary.

Previously, on 27 February we received a letter from the Minister stating he had made it clear on the Government's behalf that provision of additional resources if required was not an issue. He further wrote that we would be aware of the Department of Finance's commitment prior to the establishment of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, which is resourced on a three-year cycle, to respond constructively and immediately to any proposals for additional translation staff following such a review and this remained the Government's position. This was a further commitment that there would be funding for a translation service.

We also received an earlier letter on 25 September 2005. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs stated "The Government is of the considered view — as was recommended in the report — that the existing arrangements, whereby Irish translations of Acts of the Oireachtas are prepared by Rannóg an Aistriúcháin...should continue. . . I am authorised in the context to say that we as Government note that proposals that may emerge from such a review" .

A minute of a commission meeting on Wednesday, 21 June 2006 reads:

"The Commission had before it a note on discussions at official level to the effect that the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has indicated that it would be prepared to:

(1) provide a guarantee in writing to meet whatever funding is required to cater for the additional burden imposed by the Official Languages Act. This funding can be explicitly ringfenced in the next Commission Bill".

Therein lies the nub of our difficulty. It was very disingenuous of the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs not to mention ring-fencing when the Bill was published. It was stated the commission was explicitly given the responsibility and the implicit direction to provide translations, which is not the case. The Oireachtas commission exists to run the Houses and provide services for Members. Providing translations is a secondary service, which the commission is happy to provide and it is prepared to live with the commitment it subsequently received. However, it was disingenuous of the Minister to make such a commitment without following through on it.

It is crucially important that the final correspondence on this issue be placed on the record. I thank the Minister for Finance and, in particular, the Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, who is also a member of the commission, for his hard work over the past two weeks, especially over the past 48 hours, to resolve this matter. Arising from the toing and froing in which the Minister of State was engaged, a letter dated 7 December 2006 was sent by the Minister for Finance to the Ceann Comhairle and chairman of the commission, which states:

While I appreciate your and the Commission's concern, I think we are all agreed that the €11m approx. amount for translation included in the €393m allocation is a generous one . . .

However, I am happy, in any event, to give you and the Commission my assurance as Minister for Finance that if the €393m allocation does over time look likely to be exceeded because of higher translation costs, then I will of course be willing to address the matter."

That outlines the way forward.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges is also very important in running the House. The committee met on numerous occasions and commission members were on a sub-committee of the CPP. We sat through many meetings to bring forward proposals on what needed to be done during dissolution periods. We presented a report to the House which was accepted unanimously by Members and referred to the Attorney General. Over the past number of weeks and, in particular, over the past 48 hours, the sub-committee addressed an issue which had to be resolved to implement this report. The Minister of State did a good job in securing agreement for an amendment that will be made to the Bill later and I commend him on that.

The commission is delighted to welcome the Bill and the amendments that will be made later will result in very good legislation, which will provide for the running of the commission over the next three years. We are happy with the allocation of funds and the additional commitment made, allowing us to proceed with our work and provide services over the coming period. It will fall to others, rather than myself, to see that through but I am happy to have been associated with the commission over the past three years.

Mr. Howlin

I am also happy to contribute to the debate on this important Bill, which is a milestone, as it represents a stocktaking following the exploratory period of one of the most innovative initiatives of the Oireachtas in the management of its own affairs in the past three years. For many years, a number of us sought to establish independence for the Oireachtas from the heavy hand of the Department of Finance and to establish the proper status of our national Parliament as independent master of its own destiny so that it could disburse its own funding as it saw fit to serve Members and develop a modern efficient Parliament comparable to the best in the world. Every Member has had the privilege of witnessing how the best Parliaments work worldwide and viewing the IT and research facilities and support staff available to ensure proper accountability.

The House has two functions — to generate law and, equally important, to hold the Executive to account. Too often in the past Executives, including those of which I was a member, have viewed the Oireachtas as merely a rubber stamp for legislation and policy determined by Government. The committee system provides for the monitoring of each Department and it was important that the constitutional responsibility on us to hold the Executive to account should have been implemented efficiently. That could not be done on a shoestring and, therefore, resources were made available to augment the parliamentary staff. The commission has made a remarkable start in the three years of its existence to improve the library and research facilities. They have not been fully explored by all Members but extraordinary work has been undertaken by the current commission.

I pay tribute to the Ceann Comhairle who, as chairman of the commission, has steered this innovative new development over the past three years. I also pay tribute to my fellow members who, by and large, set aside party political considerations and worked in the interests of developing an effective Oireachtas, which is extremely important. I would also like to make favourable mention of the role of the Minister for Finance's representative on the commission. We were very fortunate that the Minister chose Deputy Brian Lenihan as his representative because his contribution as chairman of the finance sub-committee of the commission and his general input have been of a sterling order and he has maintained the primacy of the role of Parliament, on which we need to expand further. The initial grounding legislation could have gone further and, in truth, I would have liked this legislation to have gone further also. Prising open the fingers of the Department of Finance is a slow process, as officials here know, and it takes more than one attempt to succeed. We have now tried twice so perhaps at the third attempt, in three years' time, we may go further and gain a greater degree of independence. In this way the notional sanctioning by the Minister for posts and salary levels and the importance of the flexibility of the commission in regulating affairs in the interests of Members and the people will be better understood.

I welcome an tAire, Deputy Ó Cuív, to the Chamber and I am sure he takes an interest in the work of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and was not drawn here by the comments of my friend and colleague, the Fine Gael Party spokesperson.

Of the myriad of issues that presented themselves to the commission, the translation service was one of the few discordant issues. I had the privilege of being a member of the sub-committee that met the Minister and we were given firm commitments on the ring fencing of money. I agree with the sequencing presented by Deputy Paul McGrath and I understood there would be a ring-fenced subhead for additional costs incurred due to translation services. It is proper that translation be undertaken, but in the interest of transparency I understood, along the members and officials of the commission, that it would be a separate subhead. It has instead been subsumed into the commission's general running.

A letter of comfort was read into the record by Deputy Paul McGrath which states that, should the translation demand be greater than what was provided for, additional funding would be provided. I hope that when the issue of the funding package is addressed again in three years that commitment will have been met through a transparent, separate subhead, reimbursable on the basis of demand rather than subsumed into a general subhead.

Members of the commission, across all parties, seek the removal of translation services from the explicit core functions of the commission to its general functions. We have tabled an amendment in this regard, to which the names of commission members have been added. The commission has many important functions but its core functions are to provide for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas and to have charge of the Houses of the Oireachtas. There are many other important functions, one of which is translation services. This issue represented an unfortunate interaction and was one of the few discordant episodes of the past three years.

The Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is correct that the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has received a generous allocation for the next three years. Who knows what will arise? There may be a very large redundancy bill to be paid, depending on the expression of the love of the people in May, as my friend and colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, says.

Mr. Cassidy

That Bill may apply on both sides.

Mr. Howlin

It may apply all over the place. Deputy Cassidy's is one of the few safe seats in the House.

Mr. Ring

He certainly has the ear of the Minister of State.

Mr. Howlin

None of us can guarantee our security regarding the forthcoming election.

People may believe the commission has been overly generous to itself so I would like to make some points in that regard. The €393 million provided for is to allow this House do play its constitutional role as watchdog, holding the Government to account. In real terms that figure will represent 0.23% of overall Government expenditure next year and the Houses of the Oireachtas does more than hold the Government to account; it also generates legislation. To put it in context, less than a quarter of 1% of expenditure is assigned to us. In percentage terms this compares favourably to parliaments anywhere one cares to look.

We must be more forceful in the job we do and less apologetic about spending public money. Those of us privileged to examine developing companies, as I have, understand that creating stable accounting mechanisms is one of the most crucial factors, along with a proper, functioning public accounts system and Comptroller and Auditor General system and the holding to account of Departments. Officials in every Department regard our public accounts system as a real measure of accountability and it is important not only that it continues to be effective, but that it is augmented in its effectiveness.

In terms of financial management generally, the commission's success has helped bring about developments such as the new research, Library and support facilities augmenting the committee system. This has been done prudently, because the committee did not squander the money it received in the first allocation three years ago. It could have front loaded the expenditure and gone back to the Minister for Finance seeking more funding but it did not. In fact the commission came in under budget in its three years showing it to be a prudent manager of resources properly voted to it by this House.

The Secretary General of the Oireachtas is accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts, a development I welcome, and I look forward to his first presentation before the commission early next year.

Members of the commission have had a unique insight into the workings of support staff here. Those of us privileged to work on the commission have seen how effective and efficient civil servants of all grades provide support in these buildings. Those of us who have dealt with the Bills Office and the other offices in the House know the remarkable work done there. I do not know how they work through the night on complicated legislation aggregating and grouping amendments, but they do so in a wonderful way.

If the commission is to be independent it must have a modern system of administration. I hope a parliamentary services Bill will come before the next Dáil to examine the legal structure for administration, as has been done in developed parliaments such as Australia's. An Act from 1959 governs the administrative structure here and this needs to be updated. Could the progressive Minister of State in charge of the Bill signal that a parliamentary services Bill is something he could consider in a future administration?

I support the amendment that is a manifestation of the will of the House expressed nearly a year ago in the Committee on Procedure and Privileges sub-committee report that was adopted unanimously. I hope the formula we have arrived at on a cross party basis will serve the House, the Members and the interests of democracy. I hope this Bill passes quickly tonight and I compliment all involved in the first term of office of the commission which was exploratory and ground breaking. I hope the next phase of the commission, whomsoever its membership comprises of, will be ever more successful in developing a strong role scrutinising our Parliament, holding the Executive to account and serving the people even better than the Oireachtas has to date.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Ba mhaith liom mo chuid ama a roinnt leis na Teachtaí Boyle agus Finian McGrath.

Bille teicniúil é seo den chuid is mó agus tá muid ag tacú leis. Tá roinnt rudaí le rá againn, áfach, faoin choimisiún go dtí seo agus faoi áiteanna ina bhfuil easpa agus nach bhfuil na soláthraí cearta ann don Oireachtas.

Níl muid sásta leis an ionadaíocht atá ann don taobh seo den Teach. Níl ionadaíocht cheart ann don pháirtí s'againne, don Chomhaontas Glas agus don dream Neamhspleách. Tá Seanadóir Neamhspleách ann atá in ainm agus a bheith ina ionadaí thar ár gceann ar fad ach níl sé ag déanamh na hoibre sin, ní théann sé i dteagmháil linn, agus ní labhraíonn sé thar ár gceann mar pháirtí. Sin fadhb.

Mr. Howlin

Cé a roghnaigh é?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Ní sinn a roghnaigh é.

Mr. B. Lenihan

B'fhéidir go mbeidh níos mó ann tar éis an toghcháin seo chugainn.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Níl mé ach ag iarraidh pointe a dhéanamh.

Mr. B. Lenihan

Níl na Náisiúin Aontaithe i gceist anseo, bord stiúrthóirí atá i gceist.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Ba chóir go mbeadh ionadaithe ar an choimisiún ó gach páirtí agus ba chóir go mbeadh duine ann thar cheann na n-oibrithe chomh maith, mar a dúirt mé nuair a bhí muid ag baint leis seo ar dtús. Ba cheart go mbeadh go leor ionadaithe ann chun na tuairimí difriúla a chur trasna. Is féidir leis an choimisiún a oibriú le duine nó beirt sa bhreis. Níl mé ag rá gur chóir go mbeadh 20 nó 30 ar an choimisiún; tá mé ar lorg duine amháin nó beirt breise.

Ba chóir díospóireacht níos rialta a bheith ann faoi bhainistíocht Thithe an Oireachtais. Ba chóir go mbeadh sé struchtúrtha againn in obair bhliantúil an Oireachtais go mbeadh díospóireacht againn faoin obair sin agus an dóigh a ndéanaimid agus a n-íocaimid as sin. Ní thugann an Bille seo deis dúinn é sin a dhéanamh ach ba cheart dúinn smaoineamh faoi. Tig linn bheith bródúil faoin méid oibre a dhéanaimid agus a lú airgid a chaithimid uirthi, mar a dúirt an Teachta Howlin romham, i gcomparáid le tíortha eile.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an alt nua, alt 3, a leagann amach feidhm an choimisiúin ó thaobh aistriúcháin de. Tá sé seo rí-thábhachtach agus tá sé ráite agam go minic cheana féin go bhfuil gá le maoiniú agus foireann sa bhreis go mbeadh an leagan Gaeilge de Bhillí ar fáil ag an am céanna leis an leagan Béarla. Go dtí seo níl sé sin ag tarlú. Déanann sé constaic san obair atá agam sa Teach nach féidir liom plé ceart a dhéanamh le Bille mar go bhfuil sé i mBéarla agus ní féidir liom leasú a chur i nGaeilge. Ní léir ón Bhille seo an mbeidh an maoiniú agus an fhoireann sa bhreis ag teacht le seirbhísí aistriúcháin mar thoradh ar an reachtaíocht seo.

Tá ceist nach bhfuil luaite sa Bhille ach ba cheart go mbeadh sé lárnach d'obair an choimisiúin — áiseanna do na meáin chumarsáide i dTithe an Oireachtais. Níl go leor ann do na meáin chraolacháin go háirithe, agus ba cheart go mbeadh áiseanna i bhfad níos fearr acu. Caithfear córas níos simplí a bheith ann nach mbeidh foirne ceamara ina seasamh amuigh ag an gheata ag fanacht orainn.

Mr. Howlin

That is the job of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Tuigim ach ba chóir go mbeadh na háiseanna tugtha dóibh chomh maith. Tá seo ardaithe ag an CPP le tamall anuas. Tá oifigeach preas éigeantach agus ba chóir go mbeadh sé ag baint le camera crews atá ag iarraidh teacht isteach seachas an captaen nó a leithéid.

Tá mionathruithe ag teastáil ach, den chuid is mó, tá an coimisiún ag éirí go maith leis agus tá súil agam go leanfaidh leis sin. Tá áiseanna breise ag teastáil ón Teach seo le cruinnithe do pháirtithe beaga agus grúpaí eile a thagann isteach. Inniu caitheadh amach as seomra coiste sinn ag 11.45 a.m. mar bhí dream eile ag teacht isteach. Bhí orainn deifriú fríd an reachtaíocht seo, agus caithfimid díriú isteach ar spás breise a fháil inar féidir linn an méid oibre atá os ár gcomhair a dhéanamh i gceart.

Mr. Boyle

I welcomed the establishment of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, have been supportive of its evolution and encourage its further progression. Such a body is necessary if the Oireachtas is to fully run its own affairs and exercise its constitutional remit of subjecting Government policies to proper analysis. I congratulate the commission on successfully fulfilling that remit during its short existence. However, I continue to hold the reservations I expressed when the principal Act was being debated with regard to the composition of the commission. Even though the Bill before us clearly provides that members of the commission serve in a personal capacity rather than representing their parties, it is true that the make-up of the present commission reflects the way in which particular groups are represented in both Houses.

Such a state of affairs has meant a lack of success for up to 25 Deputies. Standing Order 114, which has been changed on a number of occasions, most notably in the early 1980s, recognises groups of seven or more Members as being fully fledged political parties. Standing Orders also recognise political parties and their leaders for matters such as votes of sympathy, although I accept that changing Standing Orders is a different debate. As a result of these Standing Orders, my party, Sinn Féin, Deputy Joe Higgins as representative of the Socialist Party and other Independent Deputies who are not members of the Technical Group do not have a direct voice on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, which is unfortunate. I acknowledge that many of the members of the commission go out of their way to inform and consult, but I seek mechanisms which would improve that process.

If the commission is to serve future Dálaí, it will have to take into account the political changes that have occured in this country and give broader recognition to how the Houses run their affairs. Ireland's political transformation is likely to be permanent in view of our increasing adoption of a European model of politics which involves a multiplicity of parties. To that end, I propose an amendment which would provide for an additional member to the commission. A similar amendment was ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle on grounds of cost when I tried to introduce it to the principle Act. I thought that decision was a strict interpretation of Standing Orders so I decided to try again by suggesting the appointment of a floating member of the commission which would alternate over a two and a half year period and would be shared between the Dáil and the Seanad. Such a member could better represent the interests of both Houses on the commission.

I accept that my amendment may be flawed but I hope that, by raising the issue and making Deputies aware of an inconsistency in terms of the commission's operations, consideration is given to the matter in the future. Deputy Howlin has pointed out that the legislation will be revisited in three years' time, at which point the remaining fingers of the Department of Finance may be pried away by whatever Government is then in power.

Mr. Howlin

Deputy Boyle might be drafting it himself.

Mr. Boyle

I may have the pleasure — we will see.

I am generally supportive of the amendments which have been tabled by the members of the commission. The amendments represent a sincere attempt on their part to address some of the outstanding issues which need to be brought into focus. This Bill provides an opportunity to do that and my party and I will support the amendments.

Mr. F. McGrath

I welcome the debate on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2006 and related issues. I thank the members of the commission, many of whom have made a valuable contribution, for their work. The commission is a classic example of public service at its best, which is something we appreciate and should support. I share some of Deputy Boyle's concerns, which I will comment on later. Major issues and responsibilities are at stake in this legislation. The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission has 11 members, ten of whom are Members of the Dáil or the Seanad. The Ceann Comhairle and the Cathaoirleach of the Seanad are on the commission. One member of the commission is appointed by the Minister for Finance. Four members of the commission are from the Dáil and three are from the Seanad. They are appointed by the ordinary Members of each House.

It is important to ensure that the members of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission are representative of the composition of the Houses of the Oireachtas. I support the general thrust of the Bill and I commend the work of the commission. I accept the points which were made by Deputy Boyle about this issue. Deputies from the major groups in this House should wake up to the reality that the Technical Group in the Dáil represents between 21% and 22% of the voting public, according to figures from recent opinion polls. We have to accept the reality that such people have a right to be represented in all facets of public life. It is important for the larger parties to deal with this issue head-on by accepting their responsibilities. If one is interested in democracy, one should ensure that the voices of Deputies who represent between 21% and 22% of the public are heard strongly.

It has been proposed that €393 million be allocated to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission for the 2007-09 period. The Minister of State mentioned earlier that this figure has been agreed with the commission. I welcome the proposed allocation because it represents excellent value for the taxpayer, as the Minister of State said. Value for money is something of which we should always be conscious. It is all very well to say that the €393 million in question is excellent value — I agree — but that does not mean we should not be constantly vigilant when taxpayers' money is being spent. The issue of accountability was raised again recently. When we talk about democracy, it is important that we also talk about accountability, which is lacking in many areas of public life and society in general.

This legislation provides that the responsibilities of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission include paying the salaries and allowances of Deputies and Senators and paying the salaries of the staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas. While we should be open-minded about such matters, we should also ensure that there is accountability in this regard. It is not acceptable for public money to be squandered by other Departments, which is something that arises in other debates in this House. An investigation can be demanded when the principal of small and disadvantaged inner city school finds that the school's budget has been exceeded by €200 or €300. The reality is that Members of the Oireachtas have a duty to be accountable and to ensure that public funds are not wasted. When we are talking about public money, we should think about matters like the Dublin Port tunnel, which is the subject of a great deal of hype at present because it is due to open next week. The tunnel ran €250 million over its budget. Many roads projects have run up to 86% over budget. Such over-runs should be challenged because they involve taxpayers' money.

Mr. P. McGrath

The Houses of the Oireachtas Commission is under its budget.

Mr. F. McGrath

I am not talking about the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission — I am talking about the Departments. The Minister for Transport, for example, has exceeded his budget for certain projects.

Mr. P. McGrath

I thought we were talking about the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2006.

Mr. F. McGrath

I am talking about value for money and accountability. I have pointed out that some Departments and Ministers are not accepting their public responsibility. I am not referring to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission at all. If Deputy McGrath had been listening to me, he would know that I commended the commission and pointed out that issues like respect for democracy are important. We need to ensure that this money is spent wisely. We accept that it is important to bed down the principles of public service, accountability and respect for democracy. I welcome Deputy Boyle's amendment, in which he proposes the insertion of a new section 5 in the Bill. I will support that amendment strongly.

Mr. Nolan

I wish to declare an interest at the outset — I am a member of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. I welcome this opportunity to speak on the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission (Amendment) Bill 2006. I hope it will have a speedy passage. The Bill makes provision for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission. It is important for Ireland, as a democracy, to have an Oireachtas which is transparent and adequately funded. I welcome the €393 million that has been approved by the Minister for Finance for the running of the Houses of the Oireachtas until the end of 2009. I commend the Minister on his support for the work of the commission.

The unanimous view of the members of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission was that the translation services were creating a difficulty for us. We learned that savings needed to be made in other areas because the costs of the translation service were eating into our budget. During my time on the commission, I have found that decisions are reached by consensus, in the main. It would be a pity if we were unable to stay within our budget as a result of financial constraints which we did not bring on ourselves. I hope the Minister for Finance's commitment, which was mentioned by Deputy Finian McGrath, will be honoured. I do not doubt that it will be honoured.

It is important to remind ourselves that the commission has produced two annual reports to date, for 2004 and 2005. It has produced two sets of annual accounts, for the same years. It has published a strategic plan for 2005-06 and a further plan for 2007-09 will follow. The commission has produced four annual Estimates and 11 statutory instruments. The commission has done some work to enhance the background facilities for members. Research services have been improved, for example. Many Members are unaware of the significantly enhanced and improved services in the Oireachtas Library. Given that we are approaching a general election, it seems likely that the Members of the next Dáil will feel the full benefit of the work that has been done.

The facilities of the House have been substantially improved by the commission. The opening hours of Leinster House have been extended and the Oireachtas crèche and fitness room have been opened. While such relatively new facilities have been developed in a low-key manner, they are in place. We are slowly but firmly getting to a stage at which we can hold our own with other parliaments in more advanced and longer established democracies.

I welcome the Bill, as I said. It will transfer some of the liabilities from the Minister for Finance to the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission in respect of the staff of the commission, which is to be welcomed. I acknowledge and commend the members of the commission for their work. I am a relatively new member of the commission — I am probably its newest member. I could see from the outset of my membership of the commission that there was a genuine determination on the part of all the representatives of the political parties to work together, where possible. I am aware of only one occasion on which there was a division and it was of a relatively minor nature. The Independent Deputies who are not represented, including the Green Party Members, can rest assured their views are being taken into account by the membership of the commission. This is positive legislation and I hope it has a speedy passage through both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Mr. Ring

I do not have to declare an interest except that I was a member of the Committee on Members' Interests for many years. I am sorry I was not appointed to the commission but so be it. I have never been that lucky with appointments——

Mr. P. McGrath

Not yet.

Mr. Ring

——but I do my best.

Mr. Howlin

It is all ahead of the Deputy.

Mr. Ring

I take this opportunity to compliment the Ceann Comhairle and the commission. The Government might learn from the commission in that when it gets a budget it could come in under budget. I thank the commission members for the excellent job they have done on behalf of the elected representatives because sometimes in this House we are afraid to represent ourselves. Civil servants and Ministers are good at doing that but we often forget about the Members. For many years in this House we were left behind and we were afraid of the media. I say to the members of the media — there are not many of them here — that their needs are met in this Bill because the facilities they use in this House come out of the costs of running the Houses.

I welcome the call for more members on the commission. I do not mind who becomes a member. I thought the Independent Members were represented. Senator Joe O'Toole is an Independent Member and an excellent representative. I have worked with Senator O'Toole, not as a member of the commission but on the Committee on Members' Interests and a more able or excellent representative one could not meet. I am not an Independent Member but I would not object to him representing me as an Oireachtas Member because he is a very able man.

Mr. Boyle

I am not an Independent either, Deputy.

Mr. Ring

I am not talking about Deputy Boyle. I am talking about the people who want to be elected to this House as Independent Members and the minute they get in here they want to form parties and have the same rules, regulations and positions as political parties.

Mr. Howlin

That is right.

Mr. Ring

That is what I am talking about.

Mr. Howlin

And individual researchers.

Mr. Ring

That is correct. They do not mind taking the €34,000 even though they are in the Technical Group, as they call it, but they still want to be Independents.

The chief executive, Mr. Coughlan, and the staff of this House are excellent. Every member of staff in this House is courteous and helpful and does an excellent job in a quiet and nice way. The staff are helpful and do the best they can for the Members. I compliment Mr. Coughlan and every member of his staff from the ushers to every worker in this House, including the cleaners who are here bright and early in the morning. They do a good job on behalf of this House and they should be complimented on that. They are pleasant people who work very hard and if the commission has any role in that area, I hope it will ensure they are paid very well because they are entitled to that.

I have no problem with the provision for translation services but I do not want to see Ministers avail of the services of the commission. They have their own budgets, offices and facilities. If one Minister succeeds in availing of commission services, all the other Ministers will do it. I am glad the Minister for Finance will ring-fence the money. I welcome the translation provision but Departments should not get involved in the work of the commission as the commission was set up to look after Members' interests only. We should not be afraid to look after Members' interests. Everybody else can look after their own interests.

The commission has been run very well. Deputy Paul McGrath, who is the Fine Gael representative along with Senator Ulick Burke, Deputy Howlin and the other people involved, have done an excellent job. It takes a lot of time and there is a good deal of work involved. When I represented Members before the commission was established we had many problems to deal with. I am glad the commission members have resolved many of those problems. They have looked after the best interests of Members. They should never be afraid to do that. The Executive has a job to do.

We are the elected Members, not the selected Members. We have enough of that in respect of what is happening in county councils. We have the selected county managers and the elected representatives. The power is being taken away from elected members. We must not let that happen in this House. At least we have this commission. We can run our own business and make our own decisions. I do not want any Ministers or Departments infringing on that. I want the commission to remain independent and look after the interests of this House. If it does that as well as it has done it in the past few years, there will be no problems. Some of the senior Ministers should examine the way it has run its business. It came in under budget and did an excellent job on behalf of the Members. I do not have any vested interest other than the fact that I am a Member of this House.

I thank the members of the commission who have done an excellent job. I publicly thank the chief executive, Mr. Coughlan, and his staff who do an excellent job in a courteous way. We may not be as courteous to them as we should be but they do the job well and I compliment them for that.

I welcome the Bill because it proves that the elected representatives are well able to run the business of the Houses. I know the Minister for Finance and his officials do not want to let any power go but that is something the Civil Service will have to learn. They want more power; they want to control the budgets, the Members and everything else. I am delighted we are taking away that control from them because they have enough to do. We do not want them to be concerned about our interests.

Mr. P. McGrath

We will worry about them.

Mr. Ring

Let us have the sleepless nights. All we want them to do is make sure that the necessary money is put in place and we will spend it wisely. They do their job well but they should let us run our business. They have enough to do. We are trying to relieve them of work and they should not get excited about that. We are doing the best we can.

I say "well done" to the people involved in the commission. They do a very important job. We should not be afraid of the media or the general public. Once everything is above board and we can show the people what we are doing with the money and how it is being spent, we have nothing to worry about. Members should never be afraid to look after their interests.

Mr. Cassidy

I wish to share time with the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, who will avail of the first five minutes.

Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs (Éamon Ó Cuív)

I welcome the Bill and the explicit provision for translation services.

I wish to clarify some issues. First, it is the Constitution that requires translation of Acts and the only way of doing away with that requirement is to change the Constitution. Second, since the foundation of the State, prior to the Constitution responsibility for the translation of Acts traditionally rested with the House. Third, until now, it has also been part of Standing Orders that the Acts would be translated.

The issue was brought forward because somebody took a case to the Supreme Court and a judgment was given by, among others, Mr. Justice Hardiman. We found ourselves in a situation where there was clearly a risk that the State, as a totality, not only had to deal with the current translation requirements but also with the arrears. In fact, contrary to popular belief and myth, the Official Languages Act, by invoking Article 8(2) of the Constitution, gave us a framework in which we bought considerable time. In other words, by having a clear framework in which we would deal with this issue, we fire-proofed ourselves against a constitutional case in regard to the fact that the Oireachtas or the State had not fulfilled its constitutional duties to translate the Acts. It is important that fact be understood.

When we brought in the Act all sections became operable after a period of three years. The three years passed but unfortunately not as much preparatory work as I would have liked was done in those three years. Those issues are now behind us.

I understand the record of a minute provided by the commission has been read into the record. It is a minute of a meeting of 21 June with officials of my Department. Unfortunately, those officials are not in a position to defend themselves and their reputations in this House.

Mr. Howlin

They are not being attacked.

Éamon Ó Cuív

I want to be absolutely clear about this.

Mr. Howlin

It would be a novelty if we were doing so on this matter.

Éamon Ó Cuív

I would like to make it absolutely clear that anything my officials said at that meeting would have been subject to further discussions with the Department of Finance because they were not in a position to do otherwise. I know the officials involved and they would never have given undertakings unless they had been pre-checked. The indications given were at official level to the effect that the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs indicated it would be prepared to etc. I have no doubt that they said——

Mr. Howlin

It is not normal practice for a Minister to undermine officials like that in this House.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Kirk)

Allow the Minister to continue without interruption.

Éamon Ó Cuív

I am standing by my officials.

Mr. Howlin

This is unprecedented in my 20 years as a Member of this House.

Éamon Ó Cuív

The Deputy is attacking my officials; I am defending them. I have no doubt they gave an indication that they would look favourably, subject to discussions with the Department of Finance, on various issues, including the provision of adequate finance etc. At all times they acted in concert with the Department of Finance.

Mr. Howlin

Is the Minister saying the minute is inaccurate?

Acting Chairman

Allow the Minister to continue.

Mr. Howlin

Is that what the Minister is saying? Is he saying an official of the House inaccurately recorded the minute? Is that what he is suggesting?

Acting Chairman

I ask the Deputy to allow the Minister to continue.

Éamon Ó Cuív

Deputy Howlin is very defensive.

Mr. Howlin

Yes, I am of the officials of this House.

Éamon Ó Cuív

I cannot see how discussions could be held unless issues could be discussed subject to reporting back and getting those issues approved or otherwise. Therefore, I am sure, as is stated, that they gave indications but no undertakings were given. That is the issue that must be stressed — they indicated that these issues could be examined and decisions arrived at. The minute states that they indicated these matters, not that they gave an undertaking. I want to stress that word. I stand by the minute and stress that an indication was given that these things were possible but that an explicit undertaken was not given. It is absolutely important that the minute, as it is written, is placed in its proper context so we all understand that in these discussions indications were given but undertakings could not have been given without having consulted further with the Department of Finance, which was the lead Department.

Acting Chairman

Tá an t-am istigh.

Éamon Ó Cuív

I absolutely confirm that the translation service is for these Houses only. There is no question it being made available to people outside these Houses unless the commission makes this available to Ministers or anybody else, and I do not believe it will. Statutory instruments are not involved, it is purely statute law.

Mr. Cassidy

The needs of the Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas have been enhanced and fulfilled by the appointment of this commission, which was a great decision. I pay tribute to everyone from the Ceann Comhairle who has chaired it to the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, Deputies McGrath and Howlin and Senator O'Toole, colleagues with whom I have worked on other committees and sub-committees of these Houses. The people have been well served by those Members in terms of their expertise, experience, determination and will to do the right thing in the national interest.

When I was elected to the Seanad in 1982 I shared an office with five Members. We had two telephones and had to book a time to use the telephone. We had one secretary. A big change had to be made. Lobby groups were coming in here with all the tools of their trade and we were left powerless in terms of what we had to contend with and had to try to match. The facilities we now have are a step in the right direction. However, a number of facilities are still required ranging from one as simple as a colour photocopier, which no Member has. We are living in a technological age and must compete with all the facilities and services available to lobby groups in particular. It is not good enough for Members of Parliament to only match those facilities. Whatever tools of the trade that Oireachtas Members need should be provided by the commission immediately.

I welcome the allocation of money for the work being done by Oireachtas Members. I compliment Mr. Kieran Coughlan, Clerk of the Dáil, and Ms Deirdre Lane, Clerk of the Seanad. They are wonderful people as are their staff who work hard to serve Oireachtas Members. I fully support our having a translation service and it being funded. I support the Members tooth and nail. Whatever they have done up to now, the job has only started and Oireachtas Members are a long way from getting the tools of their trade, which we still require. If the difficulty is a lack of funding, irrespective of how it is to be provided, the Government has shown that a serious will and attitude, which is the most important element, exist to supply services for each Member of the Dáil and Seanad.

The last appointments which were made to provide us with parliamentary assistants were a Godsend. The volume of work that a Member does today is at least five times what I did when I was first elected many years ago. At that time a constituent would call to one at the weekend, one would write to him or her and to the Minister responsible, the Minister would reply in the second week and the problem would be dealt with in the third week. However, today one is contacted about a problem in the morning by mobile call or by e-mail, which arrives even before one opens one's eyes. A constituent will telephone at 5 p.m. on the same day and ask how one got on in addressing the issue. If one is not on the other end of the phone and is in the Chamber or doing other Oireachtas work, one will get a text worded to the effect "Please let me know. P.S. I expect an answer". That is what is happening and Members do not have access to a facility as simple as a colour photocopier. We need an enormous number of facilities.

I am chairman of the sub-committee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which is an honour and a privilege. I was working with colleagues, relatively new Members such as Deputy Boyle, who when they came here from the private sector, where they had access to all the tools of the trade, could not believe that Parliament did not have the bare essentials to carry the work at this time when money is flowing because of good Government policy, good civil servants and good Members of Parliament on all sides who tease out issues with transparency the order of the day.

I am probably the longest serving Member having regard to the time I spent in both Houses, along with the Acting Chairman. What we are doing here is only halfway along the route. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Brian Lenihan, for his work in this respect. I have always been an big admirer of his ability and his determination to help and do the right thing at the right time. Thankfully, this Bill is progressing and I hope the next Parliament will take it a stage further where we will be able to fight with both hands out in front and not with one tied behind our backs as most of us have done while we served in whichever House we were lucky to be Members of.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. B. Lenihan)

I am glad there was a broad welcome for this Bill from all sides of the House and of this very constructive debate. I am also grateful for the kind comments made by a number of Members about myself.

I thank the members of the commission specifically for the work they have done in the past few weeks leading up to the presentation of this legislation in the House. Three specific concerns were raised by members of the commission and I am glad to say, subject to what we will be discussing on Committee Stage shortly, that I believe all those concerns will be addressed.

I join in the many tributes paid by Deputies to the Clerk of the Dáil and to his staff. The Clerk is the chief executive of the commission as well.

Mr. P. McGrath

He is the Secretary General of it.

Mr. B. Lenihan

He is the Secretary General of the commission or chief executive in colloquial terms. I join in the many tributes paid to the exemplary standard which he and his staff give to Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas.

I will deal with the specific points raised by Deputies. Deputy Paul McGrath outlined the work of the commission and I was glad to note he found the commission's work was popular with Members. Deputy Paul McGrath decided to explore the history of the relationship between the commission and the Minister on the provision of translation services. There is no doubt that Rannóg an Aistriúcháin always provided the translations of the Acts of the Oireachtas, but decisions of the courts in recent years and the Official Languages Act 2003 require the production of contemporaneous translation. That is a more onerous obligation than the obligation hitherto imposed on the translation service. The practical issue was addressed in a letter of comfort which was read into the record by Deputy McGrath. I noted that he was satisfied with the assurance given by the Minister for Finance in that respect.

Deputy Howlin highlighted the importance of the commission in securing the independence of Dáil Éireann. I was glad that Deputy Howlin referred to the two functions, which do not pertain to both Houses. Seanad Éireann is a legislative Chamber, but Dáil Éireann is the body to which the Government is responsible, as well as being a legislative body. In public discussion about the work of Dáil Éireann, this point is not stressed often enough. Public opinion suggests that the Dáil is simply a Legislature and that our job is to work as legislators. However, it is also the job of the Opposition Members of Dáil Éireann to hold the Executive to account. I do not think that fact is sufficiently mentioned in public debate.

I was interested in the costings given by Deputy Howlin and the fact that they compared favourably with other parliaments. I agree with him that the complex legislation on parliamentary services should be consolidated and modernised. I know the committee has looked at this matter in its deliberations.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh was dissatisfied with the representation of smaller parties on the commission, as was Deputy Boyle, who will be raising the issue on Committee Stage this evening. There is a problem here because apart from the Cathaoirleach of Seanad Éireann, the Ceann Comhairle and the nominee of the Minister for Finance, there are seven vacancies left. The only way to address the problem is to have a larger number of members on the commission. However, the commission has always seen itself as an independent body, rather like the board of directors of a company, a body that makes its own determinations about what is in the best interests of the Oireachtas. There is an issue of size in any body of that type. If the size is enlarged too much, the efficiency of the board is weakened. An attempt was made to secure balance and this will be examined in light of the results of the general election next year. A fresh dispensation will be required and an effort will be made to accommodate the representatives of all the parties. As a member of the commission, I found that the interests of all of the parties were safeguarded by the various members of the commission. There was an awareness among all the members that conflicting interests and positions existed, but that they would have to stand apart from that and make an overall judgment on the best interest of the Houses.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh also expressed dissatisfaction with the facilities available for broadcasting and for meetings by smaller parties. One of the most satisfactory aspects of the commission is the high degree of co-operation extended to it by the Office of Public Works. The OPW has treated the commission as it would treat a line Department in the Government. The OPW has always been anxious to facilitate our wishes in every possible respect. The matters raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh should be raised, through the commission, with the OPW.

Deputy Boyle touched on the difficulty of securing adequate representation for the different interests, but he was very supportive of the commission's work, for which I thank him. Deputy Paul McGrath stressed the importance of obtaining value for money and the commission is very conscious of this. We are conscious to procure value for money in any decision we make. Deputy Nolan spoke about the extended opening hours of the Library and listed many of the commission's achievements. He made the point that the commission members had shown a genuine determination to work together. I agree with that. I can recall only one occasion where we had a vote along party lines. The one lesson to be drawn from that episode was that the leaders of the parties should never get involved in the business of the commission. If that rule is followed by party leaders, we will not have any difficulty. They should not view the representatives on the commission from their own party uniquely as representatives of their political interest. The Bill does not envisage this and all members of the commission were very conscious of their independent obligations. At all stages they were faithful to those obligations. It is a difficulty and this commission has set a good example for the future on this issue.

Deputy Ring thanked the commission for its work and paid a generous tribute to the staff of the Houses. He opined that the Minister for Finance must be very sad that he no longer controls the budget allocation for the Houses, but my experience has been to the contrary. The present Minister for Finance and his predecessor, who in many ways was the architect of this Bill, were very glad to be disembarrassed of the obligation of providing direct administration for the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, recalled the legal history of the obligation to translate the Bills, while Deputy Cassidy stressed the importance of improving the facilities of the House at all stages.

This has been a very constructive debate. I wish to thank Members for their contributions. The commission can look back on the last three years as a period in which the commission has got off to a good start. There has been a solid list of achievements. "A lot done, more to do", was a phrase used around the time of the last election, but it can be applied with equal justice to the work of the commission.

Question put and agreed to.