Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 28 Mar 2007

Vol. 634 No. 5

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about a matter that has been raised by Deputy Enright and others on a number of occasions, which was the subject of a "Prime Time" programme last week. I refer to the attitude of the Government towards accepting responsibility for what happened to a number of children in day primary schools throughout the country. The Taoiseach will be aware of Louise O'Keeffe, who lost her case — in respect of which a sum of €500,000 in costs is pending — in the High Court. The view is that this is a public interest case and that the State should not pursue Ms O'Keeffe for costs. Will the Taoiseach clarify the position in this regard?

The Government wrote a letter advising victims that the Department of Education and Science has no responsibility in this matter and that they should pursue boards of management. Under the Constitution, the State has a duty to provide for people's education. In addition, teachers are paid out of the public purse and the Department of Education and Science sets down the curriculum, pays capitation grants and provides buildings. Do the Taoiseach and the Government agree with the assertion by the Minister for Education and Science and her Department that they will not accept responsibility for what happens to children in primary schools throughout the country? Do the Taoiseach and the Government agree with the contents of the letter that was sent? If they do, they are abdicating responsibility completely. If they do not, are they prepared to have it withdrawn and have some other system devised under which justice would be done and responsibility accepted?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy is aware, I cannot comment on the details of the O'Keeffe case, which has been appealed to the Supreme Court. On the costs relating to the previous case, I made it clear last March that the Government had asked the State Claims Agency, the statutory body that deals with legal fees, to approach the issue of costs in a measured and sensitive way. The agency informed Ms O'Keeffe's solicitor at that time and on the record, that while the same arrangements would have to be made in respect of costs, there was no question whatsoever of her losing her house, which was the issue. Her solicitor informed the agency that she intended to appeal the case to the Supreme Court and it was not possible to make a deal with her on the previous costs. In any event, the High Court placed a stay on the costs order pending the determination of the Supreme Court appeal.

I have stated on many occasions that I sympathise greatly with those who were subjected to abuse in our schools and in places in which they should have felt safe and protected. Child abuse, regardless of where it occurs, is devastating and victims always carry a great deal of emotional pain. There is no doubt that a huge wrong was done to young children in our schools in the past. While I feel deeply sorry for the victims, the courts have found that the State was not liable in this regard. A number of cases have been heard in the courts.

Mr. P. McGrath

A little sympathy does not go very far.

The Taoiseach

Our education system has long been structured on the basis that schools are sponsored by religious and other patrons and run by local management on their behalf. Since the enactment of the relevant legislation, legal responsibility in this regard is vested in boards of management. The courts found in four separate cases that the Department of Education and Science was not liable for abuse that occurred in schools. I accept that the State is not legally responsible for what happened. That does not make matters any less awful for the people concerned, but the legal issue involved here is that the Department is not responsible.

Ms O’Sullivan

The Taoiseach is washing his hands of it.

Mr. Kenny

Do I take it the Government, which has been led by the Taoiseach for the past ten years, does not accept responsibility for sexual abuse of children in day schools throughout the country? Do I understand that evidence produced last week of a letter submitted to the Department of Education and Science, which clearly indicated abuse by a teacher, was not dealt with and that no action was taken? I will ask the Taoiseach again whether he agrees with the letter that was sent to victims advising them that the Government has no responsibility in respect of this matter and that they should sue boards of management. Such boards are comprised of approximately 20,000 volunteers and lay people. Why would anybody want to serve on a board of management if he or she would be likely to be sued in circumstances of this sort? Is it not a fact that, under the Constitution, the Government must provide for people's education and that, for example, welfare officers, who have a role to play in ensuring children attend school, are part of the State machinery?

Does he agree the letter sent out is in accordance with the Government views? How can he stand here, as head of Government, and state that all responsibility is abdicated for children who were abused in day schools throughout the land?

He apologised, in respect of the institutions arising from the Residential Institutions Redress Board, to all those victims who were abused in institutions. Does he now apologise to all of those victims who were abused in day schools? Let me hear it again from the Taoiseach, as head of Government, that Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats will not accept any responsibility for the sexual abuse of children in day schools, of which the Department of Education and Science was notified officially and took no action. If that is the case, we have come to a new low where he will not even accept any moral responsibility for an outrage that happened in so many cases throughout the land.

The Taoiseach

There are a number of points. The letter sent is based on legal advice of the legal position.

Mr. Kenny

It is on behalf of the Government.

The Taoiseach

It is the legal position, that is the point.

Mr. Kenny

It is on behalf of his Government.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny asked me to clarify the position. That is the legal position.

Mr. McCormack

That makes it worse.

Mr. Kenny

Hide behind it.

The Taoiseach

One does not hide behind the law.

Ms Lynch

That is the cover.

The Taoiseach

One does not hide behind the law; one quotes the law.

A Deputy

It is all right if you change it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

If cases are fought in court, one does not ignore that. If one is in this office, one does not ignore cases fought in the court and just make up one's own mind. That is not what the Taoiseach does.

Mr. Kenny

I agree. What will the Taoiseach do about it?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

Mr. Kenny

What will he do about it?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny, please, you had your opportunity.

Mr. McCormack

It is like signing a blank cheque.

The Taoiseach

I said I sympathise greatly with those who have been subjected to abuse.

Mr. Allen

Weasel words.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Kenny is correct. I apologised to those who were in institutions because in the institutions the State had a full obligation. I have never stopped taking criticism from the Opposition in this House for that matter, but that is neither here nor there.

Boards of management are not sued as individuals but as boards of management, and they have indemnity insurance on that issue, which has been made quite clear. While members of boards have a responsibility to ensure procedures are in place to keep their pupils safe and to investigate any allegations of abuse, they are not personally liable for claims against the school.

Boards of management are a corporate entity and can be sued. However, the Education Act provides that the individual members who serve and who do a good job on boards, have protection. In addition, boards are required to have insurance policies to cover this. That is the legal position.

It is important that there is local responsibility and vigilance, but of course this does not mean volunteer members of boards being exposed to claims, which is the concern that individuals would have.

Mr. Allen

Is it all about money?

The Taoiseach

The Minister does not believe this issue will stop people from volunteering to participate in boards. The head of the Catholic Primary School Managers' Association has also publicly assured board members that they are protected by insurance and, therefore, I do not want to get into the position of scaremongering.

Mr. Allen

What about the victims?

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

The position is that in the entire history of the State primary schools have been State aided as distinct from State run. The Catholic Church and other churches which have set up the vast majority of our primary schools continue to act as their patrons. Other patrons include those of Protestant, Jewish and Muslim faiths, and the patron bodies from Gaelscoileanna and Educate Together schools. That is the way our school system is set up.

The enactment of the Education Act ten years ago gave statutory expression to the status of the existing relationships between the Minister, the patron and board of management into primary legislation, and it is the school's management, rather than the Department, that recruits and employs teachers and other staff. That is the legal position and that is why the cases have been dealt with by the courts on that basis.

Mr. Allen

A cop out.

Mr. Rabbitte

I noted the "H" word was the only one that did not pass the Taoiseach's lips on Saturday night. There was no reference at all of hospitals, not to mention private hospitals and the Government's plan to build super private clinics on the grounds of public hospitals. There is not a single Member in any week of the year who does not deal with a number of harrowing cases of people languishing in queues for public hospital care because of the inequality at the heart of the health service intrinsic in the two-tier system.

The two-tier health system will be worsened by the Harney plan, endorsed by the Cabinet and supported by the Taoiseach. Up to now it was believed that people would be treated equally in accident and emergency departments. Now there will be a two-tier accident and emergency system.

Dr. James Binchy, speaking on behalf of doctors at a recent conference, stated that the following had emerged during discussions on new contract talks for consultants:

Under such a system [the system of co-location], patients who opt to be treated privately will be admitted directly to the co-located private facility, while those who cannot afford private medicine will continue to languish in A&E Departments while awaiting a bed in the public system.

The decision as to which patients will get a hospital bed will be made on the basis of the ability to pay rather than clinical need, Dr. Binchy said.

When I asked the Taoiseach if he was going ahead with signing these contracts before the election, he denied he knew anything about contracts. When I came back to it last week he stated that he thought it was going ahead, but he did not know, on 16 April. Will he further worsen the two-tier divide in the health service by signing contracts, for which he has no mandate, for which he did not seek a mandate, which are not in the programme for Government and on which he is proceeding on the eve of a general election? Is that still the position of his Government?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Rabbitte raised three points. First, he is incorrect to state I did not raise the hospital issue and the health service issue. Last week I gave extensive detail on the health issue at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis, including that we are bringing in a national screening programme for breast cancer——

Mr. McCormack

One could not watch it all.

Mr. Allen

It is not operational.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach without interruption.

The Taoiseach

——extending the facilities in a number of areas of treatments, improving the urgent care centre——

Mr. Quinn

Answer the question.

The Taoiseach

That was part of the question.

Mr. Allen

People are waiting two years.

The Taoiseach

I also referred to prostate cancer services. These will be important services——

Mr. Stagg

We do not believe him.

(Interruptions).

Mr. D. Ahern

Let him answer.

The Taoiseach

——including finalising the remaining beds that we need for public hospitals. That, of course, includes dealing with the issue of co-location. The position is that I am not signing any contracts. The HSE, on eight contracts——

Mr. Allen

Pontius Pilate.

Ms Lynch

What is he there for?

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

If they do not want to hear what is happening, there is no point in me speaking.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Could I point out to Members that this is Deputy Rabbitte's question and he is entitled to hear the answer to it?

Mr. Penrose

The Taoiseach is giving a non-answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Members to remain silent and allow that to happen. The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Even if the Deputy is not interested.

Mr. McCormack

He will not sign any more blank cheques.

The Taoiseach

I apologise if I am provoking the Opposition. The Government is trying to make available, against the wishes of the Opposition, more beds so that more public patients will be involved in hospitals.

Mr. Allen

It is helping private business.

Mr. Penrose

They have been given away to the Taoiseach's rich friends.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Mr. Allen

The books are being cooked.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does Deputy Allen wish to leave the House?

The Taoiseach

The HSE is responsible for that. It seems desirable to this side of the House to reduce waiting lists even further than the reduction by half we achieved in recent years and to eliminate them if possible. To do that, we will need more beds.

Mr. Stagg

You said you would do it in two years.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy would co-operate with us, we might do so more quickly.

Mr. Stagg

Five years ago, it was to be done in two years.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Stagg does not want to hear what I have to say about public hospital beds. Currently there are several thousand private beds in public hospitals and there is no access for public patients. We are endeavouring to build co-located private hospitals so that those private beds can move out of public hospitals and be designated private hospitals. The same consultants would be able to work in their public and private capacities but we would have more access for public patients. Accident and emergency units would not be affected. Deputy Rabbitte knows that the Minister for Health and Children issued a statement on this matter last week. It will not affect accident and emergency services.

I accept the Deputy is opposed to this but we are trying to make more public hospitals available in the short term to people who are on public waiting lists. With the increases in population and specialisation, we need more public hospitals, and this is one way of meeting that. It is additional to all the new construction projects under way and the several hospitals which have been commissioned in various locations. I do not see why anyone would be opposed to this. It will help public patients and the efficiency of our consultants.

With regard to what consultants will say about the industrial relations discussions on their contract, I wish Mark Connaughton and the other participants well over the next few weeks.

Public accident and emergency units are not located in private hospitals. Deputy Rabbitte does himself no good by trying to make the case that we will have accident and emergency units in private hospitals for the first time in the history of the State. We do not have accident and emergency units in Blackrock Clinic, the Mater Private Hospital, the Bon Secours Hospital or the private hospitals in Cork and Waterford. That has never happened nor is it proposed. We are talking about putting public beds into public hospitals and have co-located private beds. That is the proposal.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am not the one who is saying this. Accident and emergency consultants have said they are extremely disturbed by proposals that would mean their patients would automatically get a bed because they are privately insured. Under the co-location model, beds for emergency admissions will now be allocated on the basis of ability to pay.

Mr. Cullen

That is not the case.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is not I who is saying this, but the consultants who are struggling in accident and emergency units.

Mr. N. Dempsey

They are wrong.

Mr. Rabbitte

There is as much concern behind the Taoiseach as there is on this side of the House about how he is worsening the divide in the health services.

Mr. Allen

The Progressive Democrats is drawing the Taoiseach into a strange one.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is not acceptable for the Taoiseach to come in here with sleeveen, weasel words about the HSE.

Mr. O’Donoghue

That is not nice.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Taoiseach is blaming the HSE rather than the Government or himself. The HSE is being required to do this at the dictate of the Minister for Health and Children. That is the fact of the matter.

Mr. N. Dempsey

That is not happening.

Mr. Rabbitte

I do not know who is performing the ventriloquism but the Minister either knows nothing about the matter or he is in denial, just as the Taoiseach is in denial about the contracts.

Mr. N. Dempsey

Deputy Rabbitte is misleading the House, as usual.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister to allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister, Deputy Noel Dempsey, did not seek any mandate for this policy. He did not put it in the programme for Government. The Taoiseach knows there will be no accident and emergency services in the private hospitals. The consultants are saying that patients will be transferred out of casualty units on the basis of whether they have private insurance. That is how serious it is for the Fianna Fáil backbenchers who will rendez-vous with distressed and concerned people in the coming weeks.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Rabbitte

I am grateful to the Ceann Comhairle. While the Taoiseach refuses to answer the question of whether he will sign the contracts, even if he does sign them, we will do everything we can to examine the tax sections that allow the write-down in capital allowances to the investors who will build these super private clinics. Investors who put their money into these super private clinics should be well advised that if it is legally possible — I think a Government always has the sovereign right to change a tax section — we will make those changes if this side of the House is returned to Government.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. Roche

Is that also Fine Gael policy?

Mr. N. Dempsey

Deputy Rabbitte made a unilateral decision. Does Fine Gael agree with it?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Mr. Hogan

I am aware of Deputy Roche's policies.

Mr. Roche

Does Deputy Bruton agree?

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Members on both sides of the House to allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Rabbitte is entitled to say that if he is elected to power he will close the tax incentives for private hospitals. There are no super private hospitals. They are the same tax incentives that have given us 7,500 nursing home units. If his policy is opposed to what we have created successfully, he is entitled to do that.

Deputy Rabbitte may say that I am using weasel, sleeveen words, but that does not take away from the facts of the case. The consultants are negotiating a common contract and they know the law well, as should the Deputy. Road traffic accidents and other emergency services will pass through accident and emergency units and people will continue to go to public hospitals. The Minister for Health and Children made that clear last week. That is not the issue. I believe, although the Deputy does not, we have a mandate for this. We have a mandate to build additional private hospitals and public hospitals.

Mr. Rabbitte

Rubbish.

The Taoiseach

I ask the Deputy to listen.

Mr. Rabbitte

Where did you get it?

The Taoiseach

We said we would provide additional public beds.

Mr. Rabbitte

Exactly, but the Government did not provide them.

The Taoiseach

This is a way of doing so. Deputy Rabbitte is trying to block the Government hand over fist for a different industrial relations reason——

Mr. Gilmore

Rubbish.

The Taoiseach

——which I am aware of because I have listened to the union side in this. The Deputy is opposing the Government's efforts to provide additional public beds.

Mr. Allen

That is hysterical stuff.

The Taoiseach

That is the end result of his campaign.

Mr. Stagg

Not at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

Mr. Rabbitte

Do not be ridiculous.

The Taoiseach

It is not ridiculous, it is a fact. The HSE is involved in negotiations and Deputy Rabbitte should know but clearly does not — as is more likely, he wants to mislead — that the entire health Vote is in the hands of the HSE.

Mr. Kehoe

He is passing the buck.

The Taoiseach

The HSE is the negotiator on the issue. That is one of its functions and, unfortunately, Deputy Rabbitte sought to misinterpret the matter.

Mr. Allen

The Taoiseach should take responsibility for once.

The Taoiseach

It is amazing that the Deputy needs so much help. Is Deputy Allen and Fine Gael opposed to co-location?

Mr. Allen

I am opposed to making business out of health.

The Taoiseach

Will he also change the tax law?

Mr. Allen

I do not want big business to be made from health.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen should stop interrupting.

Mr. Allen

I answered the Taoiseach's question.

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy opposed to changing the tax law?

Mr. Kenny

Fine Gael has already made that clear.

Mr. Allen

I am opposed to making big business out of health.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Allen will have to leave the House if he continues to interrupt.

Ms Enright

He answered a question from the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Is Fine Gael opposed to private medicine?

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not care who asked the question.

The Taoiseach

Is it opposed to co-located beds?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not his question, it is the Labour leader's question.

The Taoiseach

Will it change the tax regulations? Is that Fine Gael's policy?

Mr. Kenny

The Fine Gael Party——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputies to desist from interrupting.

Mr. Kenny

On a point of order, I was asked a question by the Taoiseach. The Fine Gael Party is opposed to the sale of public lands at public hospitals for private hospitals.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Kenny to sit down.

Mr. N. Dempsey

That is not the same thing.

The Taoiseach

That is a different issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Taoiseach to return to Deputy Rabbitte's question.

The Taoiseach

Here we have two alternative views.

Mr. Roche

Sale or lease, we had that last week from Deputy Kenny.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Minister to allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

Mr. Roche

Weasel words.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister, Deputy Roche, should deal with the sewage in Arklow.

Mr. Roche

Sale or lease.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption.

Mr. Connaughton

The Taoiseach has no answer.

Mr. F. McGrath

Where are the 3,000 beds to be provided in a year?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Connaughton is not the leader of the Labour Party and, therefore, he is not entitled to intervene.

Mr. J. Brady

They are all the one.

Mr. Connaughton

When the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government shouted a question earlier, the Ceann Comhairle did not say a word. He should try to be fair if he can.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach without interruption. Please allow him to conclude on this question.

Mr. Connaughton

The Minister will not ask that question again in a hurry. The Taoiseach has no answer.

The Taoiseach

The issue is that for many years 2,500 private beds have been ring-fenced in public hospitals. We are trying to provide more public beds so that the political support——

Mr. Stagg

The Government should build them.

Mr. McCormack

The Government should open the beds it has closed.

The Taoiseach

We are building hospitals in Tullamore, Cork and many other places.

Mr. Stagg

The Government is building them privately.

The Taoiseach

The investors who were shocked a few minutes ago by Deputy Rabbitte's statement have been reassured by Deputy Kenny's statement. When one works all that out, it will be very interesting.

Mr. Allen

That is pathetic.

Mr. Durkan

This is like Saturday night all over again.

Mr. Hogan

It is nice to be prudent.

Mr. Boyle

Castrating the health service. Is that the Government's job?

Mr. F. McGrath

When the 3,000 beds are provided and equipped, the Government can talk.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

We want financial investment.

Mr. Sargent

This sounds more like an Ard-Fheis. Last weekend the Taoiseach told the nation he had lots of money to give away. Earlier the Committee of Public Accounts stated the Government wasted €13 billion, which is more than the Taoiseach had in mind. However, the contrast is stark. The message from the Government regarding mental health provision is that it cannot afford the most basic services. The Irish Independent reports today that 5,300 pupils will be hit by the withdrawal of psychological services from 29 schools in Dublin and Wicklow.

Did the Taoiseach see the media coverage of the court case involving Seán Ó Cuanacháin, a young Wicklow boy with autism? Bearing in mind that the Minister for Education and Science welcomed the court judgment, did the Taoiseach see the boy's mother, Yvonne, stating, "The light of learning has all but been extinguished from Seán today". I do not ask the Taoiseach to comment on the case because aspects of it are ongoing and I do not suggest there is only one method for teaching children with autism. Given that Mrs. Ó Cuanacháin is seven months pregnant, spent nine days in the witness box, is a trained psychologist and only sought what her child needs — 30 hours of applied behavioural analysis a week, which would save the State money — does he welcome the outcome of the case? Does he welcome forcing parents in that position into court to obtain the services their children need? Following the case, will the Government provide funding for autism services such as ABA? Will the Taoiseach ensure the waiting lists for an appointment for assessment, which can take up to two years, will be reduced? Will the Government recognise ABA as a sufficient qualification for teachers of children with autism? Can the Taoiseach seriously just sit there and welcome that judgment without answering these other questions?

The Taoiseach

I appreciate I have not been asked by the Deputy to comment on an individual case but I do not take satisfaction in seeing parents having to fight issues relating to their children in court.

Mr. Sargent

The Taoiseach welcomed the case.

The Taoiseach

I assure the House that improving services for children of special needs across a range of areas has been, and continues to be, a major priority for the Government. We have worked hard to dramatically increase services in recent years. This year €820 million will be spent on special needs education, which is an increase of more than 30% on last year. A total of 8,000 special needs assistants are working in mainstream primary and second level schools compared to 300 on the day I became Taoiseach. More than 7,000 resource and learning school teachers are in place compared to approximately 2,000 five or six years ago.

Major progress has been made in the support of children with autism, which is the important issue raised by the Deputy. The Department of Education and Science's preferred approach to the provision of appropriate education for children with autism is through the primary and post-primary school network——

Mr. Sargent

Not for all children.

The Taoiseach

——whether through placement in mainstream classes, special classes or in special schools, a view supported by the findings of the task force report on autism. Autistic children in the school system have access to qualified teachers using a range of methodologies.

Over the past few years, 182 special classes for children with autism have been provided in special and mainstream schools and they are attached to the schools. We have provided five special classes for children with Asperger's syndrome, 18 preschool classes to facilitate the demand for early intervention and 14 stand-alone facilities for applied behavioural analysis, the ABA specific methodology, on a pilot basis.

Mr. Sargent

Which the parents are funding.

The Taoiseach

Two of these facilities have to be established.

As Deputy Sargent acknowledged, ABA is not the only issue. I have met the groups and committees working on this issue. The Department's view and the expert opinion is that exclusive intervention through ABA is not the only way. The task force on autism recommended that a range of resources and approaches be made available to meet the unique needs of each student with autistic spectrum disorder in all settings and the Department is of the view that children with autism, in common with all children, should be educated by suitably qualified teachers within the school system where they can mix with the wider peer group and have maximum opportunity for integration. Pupils attending special classes in mainstream school benefit from the wider range of special teaching methodologies open to them, fully qualified national school teachers, a school structure and the option of integration into mainstream classes if that is suitable for them.

I can well understand that a number of parents take the view that only one methodology suits their children but the State is providing——

Mr. Sargent

It is more than a view.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy cannot say the effort and significant resources that have been put in and the ongoing work and research in this area are not a good response in this area.

Mr. Sargent

That is nonsense.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy says it is nonsense for us to have appointed thousands of additional staff to work in the education system. That is a huge improvement. That is what the Government is committed to and that is what the Minister for Education and Science has been doing so excellently over the past number of years.

Mr. Sargent

I must read between the lines. Do I take it from the Taoiseach's response that he will not provide additional funding for ABA tuition, he will not recognise ABA as a stand-alone qualification and he is not prepared to reduce waiting lists for assessment? I have to infer his reply from what he does not say as much as what he says. Approximately one in 66 children is affected by autism and that number is increasing. Resources will, therefore, have to be increased regardless. Approximately 150 families such as the Ó Cuanacháins have been left with no option but to go to court to try their luck through the legal system because the State will not deal with their children in the way their psychologists have recommended. Does the Taoiseach not recognise investment in ABA will save the State money in the long run?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Sargent

This could be argued as a simple point of accountancy.

The Taoiseach spoke about ABA facilities. However, in Donaghmede, parents are obliged to provide funds of €10,000 and in the ABA school in Kilcloon, County Meath, parents must find €12,000 monthly. Parents must go into debt at every turn to try to do what the Government should, namely, to get analysis for their children.

Is it acceptable for the Government to drive such parents into court repeatedly? Is it acceptable to have groups such as NUI Maynooth engaging in a sponsored cycle this Friday to try to raise money to provide funds or to have entertainers such as Mr. Keith Duffy getting involved——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's time has concluded.

Mr. Sargent

——in the fundraising? I will reduce the basic point to a single question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer the Deputy to conclude. We are running well over time.

Mr. Sargent

I am concluding. This is the last sentence of the last question. I know this is a complex issue. However, if the Taoiseach will not answer me in the House, will he at least meet——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to give way to the Taoiseach.

Mr. Sargent

——Irish Autism Action in the wake of that court case to assess where we now stand and what must be done?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Sargent understands that ABA is only one such treatment.

Mr. Sargent

I have already said that.

The Taoiseach

There are several. I have answered on the question of resources. There has been an increase of more than 30% this year.

Mr. F. McGrath

Unplugged gaps.

The Taoiseach

Resources have increased by more than 30%. Public expenditure has risen by 38% or 39% and the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act is regarded as being one of the most advanced anywhere in the world.

Mr. Sargent

Who considers it to be advanced?

Ms O’Sullivan

It has not been fully implemented.

The Taoiseach

That is the consideration regarding this Act.

Mr. Sargent

Did the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Hanafin, tell the Taoiseach so?

The Taoiseach

It is a fact.

Mr. N. Dempsey

It is a recognised fact.

Mr. Sargent

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Noel Dempsey, knows it all.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Sargent, please. The Chair will be obliged to take appropriate action.

Mr. Sargent

I was looking for a source.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to behave himself in the Chamber and allow the Taoiseach to speak without interruption.

The Taoiseach

Autism is an important issue and as I noted, 182 special classes for children with autism are attached to schools. This is considered to be the best approach. There are also special classes for different streams of autism. There are 18 pre-school classes to facilitate demand for early intervention and 14 stand-alone facilities have been provided for applied behavioural analysis. These are pilot schemes run by the Department of Education and Science. They are not——

Mr. Sargent

What about funding?

The Taoiseach

It is the Government's priority to continue to expand provision for children with autism. All primary and post-primary schools have access to psychological assessments for their pupils through the various schemes. More than 4,000 such private assessments were funded in the school system last year. The Government has continued to provide resources for this matter in every way possible through the various representative groups for autism with which the Minister keeps in regular contact. Several support programmes to help them exist.

In addition, on the phased implementation of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act 2004, in the next few years parents who believe the needs of their child are not being met will have a process of mediation and appeal open to them. This is likely to prove more appropriate and less costly than obliging people to go through the courts, which is certainly not the Government's preferred option. The full implementation of the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act will help in this regard.

While many other issues arise in respect of autism, I will conclude by raising one more. Students who attend special autism-specific classes have a maximum pupil-teacher ratio of 6:1. A minimum of two special needs assistants are provided——

Mr. Sargent

Some require one to one tuition.

The Taoiseach

——per class with the possibility of additional special needs assistant posts being made available on a one to one basis, where required. Deputy Sargent should note this is already in existence. Significant support is now available in the area of teacher training through an accredited autism-specific course, an approach-specific course, on-line courses and through special education. Moreover, specialist school transport, equipment and accommodation is also funded.

The State is doing an enormous amount to help——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach should conclude.

The Taoiseach

——and the Government will continue to have ongoing meetings with Irish Autism Action on such issues.