Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2007

Vol. 637 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

I will now take Leaders' Questions under Standing Order 27, as amended. The standing order allows for a brief question on a matter of topical and public importance from the leaders of the Fine Gael and Labour parties.

I hope the Ceann Comhairle's enthusiasm is a little more restrained today. I did not know the Ceann Comhairle brought his own china shop with him.

There is a programme on Channel Four called "Deal or No Deal". Yesterday, the Taoiseach indicated to the House that he had a political arrangement worked out with three, not four, Independent Members. I have no reason to doubt the word of Deputy Flynn who, following her meeting with him, stated she had a deal with the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach confirmed yesterday that he has no such deal when responding to questions on the arrangement with other Independent Members, which obviously affect the national development programme, State agencies and priority issues in the Deputies' constituencies. As far as I can ascertain, RTE is the only State agency that would appear to be affected by any deal with Deputy Flynn having come to an agreement with her to write off a large part of the moneys claimed to be due arising from a court case. The Taoiseach's comments, before the court case, were quite extraordinary and are causing confusion as to whether this was a part of some deal.

I have no knowledge of and nor have I been in any way involved in Deputy Beverly Flynn's deal, negotiations or settlement with RTE. She never raised the issue of RTE with me. In fairness to her, she never mentioned it.

I am quite sure the Taoiseach can understand licence payers' outrage. They see advertisements on the television about the serious consequences of not paying their licence fees. An amount of money of the size in question may have to go before the RTE Authority, which is appointed in full by the Government. Will the Government take into account the shortfall that results from the agreement with RTE when the opportunity next arises?

On the day the Taoiseach was elected, Deputy Flynn commented that she had tied down a very generous verbal agreement with him just hours before the vote for Taoiseach took place and that she was very pleased with what was agreed. She went on to say that she had no comment to make on it but that all would become apparent shortly. The Taoiseach was elected on 14 June and gave an interview on 15 June. Matters became apparent shortly after that when RTE suddenly agreed to waive an amount of money due to it. Deputy Flynn, the veracity of whose comments I have no reason to doubt, says she has a deal with the Taoiseach. However, the Taoiseach says he has no deal with her. Is there a deal or is there no deal? Somebody is not telling the truth.

Deputy Kenny is trying to imply that I had some discussion, arrangement or understanding with Deputy Flynn implicating RTE.

That is not what he said.

It is what Deputy Kenny is implying.

(Interruptions).

Was there a deal and what is the content?

Is this something to do with the tribunal?

(Interruptions).

Let us cut to the chase and stop at the tape.

Was there a deal?

There was no discussion between me as leader of Fianna Fáil or as Taoiseach with Deputy Flynn regarding her case, or her pending settlement with RTE. She did not raise the issue.

She did not have to.

She did not imply that she was trying to settle or that she was going to pay. There was no discussion.

What was the deal? Did it relate to the timing of the announcement?

I stated in the interview that in my judgment Deputy Flynn's future lay in Fianna Fáil.

The deal was that the Taoiseach would say that.

What was the quid pro quo?

What about the tribunal?

I said nothing about RTE. Deputy Kenny has been long enough in that seat, never mind in this House——

The agreement was that the Taoiseach would say what he said while the matter was sub judice.

Deputy Kenny is well able to answer questions. He does not need Deputy Bruton's help.

He does not have another opportunity.

The Deputy's interruptions did not do him much good during the election.

RTE's independence is well known. I do not believe Deputy Bruton does it much service by questioning its independence.

That is gibberish. The Taoiseach should not go there.

What else did the Taoiseach say?

(Interruptions).

I call the leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Rabbitte.

There are two matters to be addressed. Yesterday, the Taoiseach flatly refused to advise the House of the details of the secret agreements he reached with a number of Independent Deputies. He has refused to lay that information before the House other than to say that they involve nothing that was not already in the Fianna Fáil programme. In the meantime, the Deputies concerned are claiming that they have got projects for their constituencies worth hundreds of millions of euro of taxpayers' money. I want to ask the Taoiseach a question that is fundamentally important for democracy. Will the terms of these secret deals be laid before the House? Second, why did the Taoiseach deny he has an agreement with Deputy Beverly Flynn? Deputy Flynn stated on 15 June:

I am absolutely delighted with what I have secured for Mayo. Bertie Ahern has verbally agreed a very generous package for the county and I will be supporting him for the vote for Taoiseach this afternoon. I do not have a signed agreement; I did not seek one. I fully accept the word of the Taoiseach. I do not need to be waving about a piece of paper.

A Deputy

Do you hear that Jackie?

Who is telling the truth and who is telling the untruths or have we reached the stage where we are unable to see the distinction? Either Deputy Flynn has an agreement with the Taoiseach or she does not.

Why did the Taoiseach feel it necessary to intervene in the extraordinary fashion in which he did, including holding out the prospect of office to this Deputy who was expelled from the parliamentary party and the Fianna Fáil Party? How, for example, must Deputy Séan Ardagh feel given his service in this House and the distinction with which he served as a committee chairman? Following the Taoiseach's extraordinary intervention, despite three years of stasis in regard to this case on the part of RTE, RTE suddenly settled the case. The Taoiseach has told Deputy Kenny that is a coincidence.

Will the Taoiseach lay the agreements before the House? Is Deputy Flynn publicly telling an untruth when she says she has a deal with the Taoiseach? Can we see the terms of that deal? Can the Taoiseach explain the coincidence between RTE quickly settling this case and his extraordinary intervention?

Three points, not two, were raised and I will try to answer them. The written understandings I have with the three Deputies concerned are based on the national development plan, Transport 21, the multi-annual programmes and the Book of Estimates. As I stated yesterday, some €187 billion is provided for in the national development plan; €34 billion in Transport 21 and we spend approximately €52 billion annually on the capital programmes and the current budget deficit. There is considerable resources within those figures. As I stated yesterday I am committed, as Taoiseach, to implementing as many of the programmes as I can based on those understandings. That is the position.

In regard to Deputy Flynn, her wish, and that of every Member on this side of the House, is to see all these programmes implemented. She is as anxious as any other Deputy that this is done. She has not raised any other issue or sought agreement in writing on the issues raised. She did not ask for a written agreement; she understands that is the position.

She is praying for it.

The third issue, the sinister question raised by Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte that I, as Taoiseach, or a Minister had something to do with the settlement by the legal team for RTE directly through the authority, general secretary or director of RTE, is 100% untrue. I had no discussion on or involvement in that matter.

This is not a cute issue for the Opposition to raise. Many of the new Deputies have no experience of this House and having to listen to their Leaders imply that a Taoiseach would ask a State company——

(Interruptions).

I want to be very clear about what is being said. It is being implied that I would ask a State company to involve itself in a settlement with a Member of any side of this House. That is contemptuous and I reject it.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions).

Would the Taoiseach sign a blank cheque for them?

The Deputies are impugning the integrity of RTE.

The House is entitled to see the terms of the agreements entered into with the Independent Deputies. It does not matter, except to highlight the foolishness of the Deputies concerned, if the Taoiseach is correct in saying the agreements are encompassed in the national development plan or Transport 21 and that the concessions are to be granted in any event. Whatever is the case, the House is entitled to see the terms of those agreements. We will continue to pursue the matter with the Taoiseach until he lays them before the House.

During the interview, Deputy Flynn added that the deal was confidential. She stated:

I know the Mayo electorate will see it as very generous. I cannot comment any further about what is contained in the deal at this time but I am really delighted and I fully trust Bertie Ahern to deliver as promised.

He promised nothing.

How can the Taoiseach reconcile that with the answer he has given, that she asked for nothing and he gave her nothing but that, somehow, she feels it will come right on the night?

It is a feeling.

She just has this good feeling on behalf of Mayo. If she got as little for Mayo as the Taoiseach says, the people of Mayo got a very bad deal. However, the Taoiseach holds out the prospect of Deputy Flynn being made a Minister. That must be causing immense puzzlement on the Government backbenches. It is an extraordinarily timed intervention. I do not know who the Taoiseach says is claiming that he intervened with RTE. I merely point to the timing of an extraordinary public interview, followed a couple of days later by RTE caving in. If one believes in the tooth fairy one can say that was a coincidence, but there is a qualitative difference between RTE pursuing an Independent Deputy and being required to pursue and bankrupt someone who is a member of Fianna Fáil and for whom the prospect of office is being held out. The Taoiseach should not assume that his new Deputies or new Deputies on the Opposition side of the House are so naive that they cannot put two and two together.

Is there a deal with Deputy Flynn or was she telling an untruth when she gave that interview to the media? Is there an agreement or is there not and when are we going to see the terms of it?

I do not think any Deputy who is in discussions with the Government is either naive or silly. People want to see projects in the national development plan, Transport 21 or the multi-annual capital and current programmes implemented. Deputy Rabbitte knows that while those projects are spread over a seven-year period, people will want to prioritise them, as every Member on my own side and the Opposition side would want to do. That is what people fight and negotiate for. One should not pretend that everything in the national plan will be implemented seriatim and easily without people fighting their corner or making a case for favourite projects. That is something that happens every day.

Castlebar will do better than Ballina.

Whether money is spent on Castlebar or €27 million is spent on the airport at Knock, I am sure Deputies on every side of the House welcome such proposals. There are similar issues in the national development plan. I would be amazed if Deputy Flynn did not support such proposals and was not glad to see them. They are the kind of proposals in which she is interested. She does not need to have them in writing because she sees them in the national development plan. Other Deputies required them in writing.

There will be plenty of room for strokes.

There was a deal.

Deputy Flynn was involved in a case and tried to come to terms with RTE. I was asked, if those matters were resolved, would she have a future in my party, having spent ten years in the House supporting my party, even when she was not a member of it. I remind Deputy Rabbitte that she is not a member of the party. I suggested that I believed her future is in the Fianna Fáil Party. As to whether she would have the capability, like many of my other colleagues, to be an office holder in future, yes, she would. I am in the lucky position that I have 50 or 60 people capable of holding such a position.

Bursting with health.

It is coming out of his ears.

I probably have three or four people capable of holding each position. I am not the leader of a small party, like the Deputy's, that would not even be able to fill all the officer positions, so it is a different position.

I will believe it when I see it.

Which party is that?

I do not accept the implication that a State company, in this case RTE, would take any soundings from me — I did not give any — on the settlement of a case.

He was able to get Eoghan Harris on the Late Late Show.

It is not a fair political point to say that I would interfere in any way.

What about Bryan Dobson on the Six One News?

It is a matter for the Director General of RTE to state whether there was any interference by me or anyone associated with me or with Fianna Fáil. The answer to that is "No", but it is a matter for RTE to say so, if they see fit to do so. It is a matter for Deputy Flynn to say if she had any discussion with me about her pending settlement, payment or circumstances. She did not.

She will not put it in writing anyhow.

Top
Share