Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 Oct 2007

Vol. 640 No. 1

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 7, motion re Establishment of Committees of 30th Dáil; No. 8, motion re Pre-budget Estimates for Public Services 2008; and No. a3, CriminalProcedure (Amendment) Bill 2007 — Orderfor Second Stage, Second and SubsequentStages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted on the conclusion of No. a3; No. 7, motion re Establishment of Committees of 30th Dáil, Nos. 1 to 16, shall be moved together and decided without debate by one question, which shall be put from the Chair; the proceedings on No. 8 shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn at 7 p.m. tonight and shall be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tomorrow night and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; the Second and Subsequent Stages of No. a3 shall be taken tonight and the following arrangements shall apply: the proceedings on the Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m.; the opening speeches of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case, the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, Members may share time, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed ten minutes; the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. tonight by one question, which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, regarding amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Parliamentary Questions next for answer by the Taoiseach on EU matters shall be taken on the same day as the statements on the EU Council meeting, Lisbon, scheduled to be taken on Wednesday, 24 October, 2007, and shall be moved to be taken first as ordinary Oral Questions to the Taoiseach on that day. Private Members’ business shall be No. 22, motion re agrifood industry.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil should sit later than 8.30 p.m. agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 7, motion re establishment of committees of 30th Dáil, agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny

We do not agree to this. I listened to the Government Whip this morning saying that everything had been agreed here and that all was hunky-dory. We on this side of the House wrote about the proportions under the d'Hondt mechanism but have arrived at this situation, in any event. It seems to me as if acceptance of the committees is tantamount to accepting the terms of reference set out here. The terms of reference do not make sufficiently clear that any Member of the House is entitled to attend at committee proceedings. I have had complaints from a number of Deputies of various parties that, when attending committee meetings in the 29th Dáil, there was considerable difficulty in being called by the respective chairmen to ask questions or make contributions if they were not named members. While it is not within the House's remit to accommodate everybody on every committee, we should obviously be flexible in assuring that Members elected to the House, wherever they come from, are entitled to attend, participate and be seen to participate in committee proceedings. I believe the Taoiseach will accept that, too.

The Taoiseach

I accept that.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

I accept the point on terms of reference. The usual difficulty with committees, however, is that their members do not attend very well — never mind Members who are not members of the respective committees. I therefore do not foresee that as a difficulty. Essentially, we are dealing today with the principle of establishing the committees and agreeing their terms of reference. The next stage in that regard is important and I just want to put down a marker. This House decides on the make-up and membership of the committees, not any particular party. That should be noted and made clear.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

This is a very vexed issue for me. With respect to the Chief Whip and the Taoiseach I ask them to pay heed to the points I am making. I have endeavoured over a protracted period to ensure access for me and my colleagues in the Sinn Féin Party to committees to be established by this motion. As we speak there is no such facilitation. The confusion, with respect to the Chief Whip, is fuelled by the information he has provided over a period at respective Whips' meetings. A formula involving the division of 11 Members from the floor of this Chamber onto each of the committees, comprising six for the Government parties and five for the Opposition — broken up into four Fine Gael Members and one Labour — excludes the other voices in this House. Yet the Chief Whip advises in the most recent missive to the Whips' meetings and in engagement I have had with him, directly, that Sinn Féin, with four Members, is entitled to at least three seats; the other Independent Deputy not aligned to the Government arrangement is also entitled to representation.

Whatever the issue about four or three as regards the Sinn Féin membership, I have been meeting with the other parties in Opposition, primarily Fine Gael, over the recent past, as it has the understanding, at least, that it has the lion's share of Opposition opportunities. The Labour Party has just one member on each of the committees and is hardly going to vacate access in order to accommodate another party representative.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

We have not agreed that.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Coming into the Chamber today I was offered access to one committee and none of my party colleagues is being accommodated at all. This is a travesty of the democratic process. It is fuelled by the confusing information that is issued from the Chief Whip's office and by him, directly, to each of the other party representatives — and we are represented at Whips' meetings. This cannot proceed in this form.

As my party's sole Deputy ten years ago, I had access to serve on a committee. Over the duration of the last Dáil we each had this opportunity, and our record of attendance and participation is absolutely second to none. We are here to play our part in the democratic process in the Houses of the Oireachtas. I appeal to the Taoiseach and the Chief Whip at this point and to each of the other Opposition party leaders to recognise there is a responsibility on everyone to ensure fairness and respect for the mandate that has sent us to Leinster House so that we are accommodated in access to the committees and preferably to those of choice, as indicated by us to both Government and Opposition. We have not been accommodated and I cannot agree to support the motion on the Order Paper now before the House.

I ask the Taoiseach to respond to the points I have made. It strikes me as ridiculous that a Member of this House and a party leader has to stand up and make an appeal for fair access to the committee system, one which we are trying to promote as an effective and efficient tool of engagement within the Houses of the Oireachtas. It can be no such thing if it is to go forward on the basis of what is being proposed and suggested to me by the various voices, both from Government and Opposition, to whom I have repeatedly spoken over several weeks. Every effort has been made on our part to ensure agreement through engagement. Once again it appears that the numerically smaller voices just do not count where the bigger players are concerned. That is not the case. We have an entitlement, as of right, and I want this affirmed this afternoon before we proceed. If access for my party colleagues and I cannot be assured we certainly will oppose this motion and will use every opportunity to continue to highlight this absolutely undemocratic and unjust approach on the part of the major parties in the House. I say shame on each and every one of them that we are in this position today as regards this motion. I should have much preferred to have been able to say there was no problem and we looked forward to participating, as we have demonstrated year on year over the past decade.

The Taoiseach

I have a short reply. For our part the Government Chief Whip will do his best to accommodate the Sinn Féin representatives. Generally, the Whips must try to do that. I cannot give assurances as it is a matter for the Whips. Certainly, they will endeavour to try to address the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal agreed?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

No, it is not agreed. I just want to respond to that——-

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with Standing Orders, the Deputy had his intervention and the Taoiseach responded. I must now put the question.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I have to say "endeavour to try" is not good enough.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 7 be agreed to."

Deputies

Vótáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies claiming a division please rise?

Deputies Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Aengus Ó Snodaigh, Arthur Morgan, Martin Ferris and Tony Gregory rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Members have risen, I declare the question carried. In accordance with Standing Order 70, the names of the Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I hope the Taoiseach will take on board——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot discuss it further.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8, motion re Pre-Budget Estimates for Public Services 2008, agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a3, Second and Subsequent Stages of the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Bill 2007, agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

On a3——

An Ceann Comhairle

We have finished with that.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I stood up and the Chair ignored me.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the Deputy did not. Is the proposal regarding the parliamentary questions next for answer by the Taoiseach on EU matters agreed? Agreed. I call Deputy Kenny on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The electricity (transfer of transmission assets) Bill is not due until 2008.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny without interruption, please.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I will shut up for a while.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny without interruption. We need to have order in the House while Deputy Kenny is asking questions on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I was going to thank you for the picture you sent around to everybody today, a Cheann Comhairle. That is an innovation. I do not know if you circulated the scrolls and pictures of people because you have left the rank of ordinary Deputy to become the Ceann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

It was simply magnanimity.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Would the Taoiseach like to comment on the difficulties being encountered in respect of Moneypoint? I refer to the possibility that the biggest electricity generating plant in the country could be shut down. He might comment on that in the context of the electricity (transfer of transmission assets) Bill, which is not due until 2008. Does the Taoiseach have a sharper fix on that?

The Taoiseach

That legislation is due next year.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

What are the Government's plans for the introduction of legislation to give effect to the boundary changes outlined in the Constituency Commission's report, which we received today?

The Taoiseach

As I have not seen the booklet, I do not know what is in it. I have not thought about the legislation either.

Deputy Tom Kitt

An electoral (amendment) Bill will be introduced next year.

The Taoiseach

The Chief Whip tells me it will be next year.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Section C of the Government's list of promised legislation, to be introduced by the Department of Health and Children, mentions eight Bills, the heads of which have not yet been approved by the Government. It has been indicated that the publication of each of the Bills is expected some time in 2008. Can the Taoiseach give a more accurate forecast of when the Bills will be processed? When does he expect the heads of the Bills to be agreed? Will he urge the Department to have the heads of the Bill advised to each of the Opposition parties in this Chamber? On the nurses and midwives Bill, a hugely important Bill which affects the vast majority of people not least those who work in the front line of provision of these services, when does the Taoiseach expect the heads of that Bill to come before the House?

The Taoiseach

The draft general scheme of the nurses and midwives Bill, which will modernise the regulatory framework in that sector and update and amend the Nurses Act 1985, is at an advanced stage. The legislation is due in 2008.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Is it intended to produce legislation arising from last week's High Court decision to allow people to effect a change of gender, with regard to their birth certificates, as a result of medical intervention?

The Taoiseach

No legislation is promised. The judgment will be examined by the Department, as always.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Under the 2003 legislation, when the courts hold that our law is contrary to the European Convention on Human Rights, the Government has a limited timeframe in which to indicate whether legislative changes will be made. Will the Government give such an indication within the timeframe specified in the 2003 legislation?

The Taoiseach

I cannot answer the Deputy's question until the examination has been finished.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Government should complete the examination pretty quickly.

Deputy James Bannon

When can Deputies expect publication of the noise Bill, which is urgently needed if we are to address noise pollution in our neighbourhoods? The nuisance caused by industrial and domestic noise pollution is a major environmental issue. Can the Taoiseach indicate when the Bill will be introduced in the House? I would like the legislation to provide for the establishment of a noise control officer in each local authority area——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot address the content of the legislation.

Deputy James Bannon

——who will impose fines when people break the law.

The Taoiseach

It is due next year.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

When does the Government intend to take steps to ratify the Aarhus Convention and to introduce related legislation to ensure that the public has information, can participate in decision-making and can access justice in environmental matters?

The Taoiseach

I will have to check that for the Deputy. I will let her know.