Vol. 642 No. 3
1 Deputy Enda Kenny asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with representatives of the Humanist community as part of the Government’s structured dialogue with religious and faith organisations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24886/07]
2 Deputy Eamon Gilmore asked the Taoiseach the progress to date in regard to the structured dialogue with churches, faith communities and non-confessional bodies; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27401/07]
3 Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his ongoing dialogue with churches, faith communities and similar bodies; the purpose of the dialogue; the outcome he anticipates; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [29231/07]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.
I was very pleased to continue the series of meetings in the structured process of dialogue between the Government and the churches, faith communities and non-confessional organisations in Ireland. With Government colleagues, I met the Humanist Association of Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends and the Baha'i community on 11 October last. The meetings were very positive and addressed a wide range of issues relating to the role of churches and non-confessional groups in society, education and health services, migration and integration issues, peace and reconciliation and the environment.
The Humanist Association of Ireland had been invited to prepare an agenda for this inaugural meeting that would have facilitated an initial discussion at the meeting. A comprehensive document was prepared and published by the association on its website in advance of the meeting. It was not possible to address all the issues of concern to the Humanist Association on this occasion. Our discussion concentrated on issues relating to education and health. In education, it is specifically looking at parental preference in schools, issues of capacity and choice, teacher training and the role of chaplains in education. In health, it has broadly similar issues relating to patient services, ethics and certain concerns with regard to chaplains and symbols. Many other issues such as constitutional change, marriage registration and charities legislation were also discussed. The full range of issues is set out in the submission received from the Humanist Association and I recommend interested parties to consult it directly.
Our meeting was very positive with a lively discussion in which the proposals of the association were addressed in the light of established circumstances. It was not anticipated that the meeting would give rise to immediate initiatives towards change. Nonetheless, it was a welcome opportunity to exchange perspectives and develop a better appreciation of the Humanist view.
The bilateral meetings are oriented towards the exchange of views on these important subjects. The dialogue process is not intended as a negotiation forum or towards decision making on immediate issues. These are matters that would be addressed with individual Ministers and Departments having regard to their functional responsibilities. Our purpose in the process is to afford an opportunity for the expression and consideration of the faith perspectives and principles of all the partners. It is particularly useful at a time of rapid change in society. Recent years have brought new cultures and identities to be included in our society. There have also been significant changes from the patterns of previous generations of the Irish people with regard to their faith identities and observance.
Deputies will recall that the process of dialogue was launched at Dublin Castle in February last with a plenary assembly of the dialogue partners. Bilateral meetings took place with the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland, the Jewish community and the Islamic community prior to the general election. I am looking forward to meeting other partners in the process shortly. My officials are engaged in making the arrangements for those meetings.
The Taoiseach must have said some other prayers before the general election. Will he arrange to meet representatives of the Sikh community to discuss the wearing of turbans in the Garda Síochána? As it is a matter of some considerable interest, does the Taoiseach intend to meet the people in question?
It is perfectly obvious that the churches in Ireland have responsible attitudes towards their own communities and the country in which they live. As the Taoiseach is aware, some Muslim clerics in Britain have attempted to whip up a certain amount of fervour about issues which they deem to be important. Has the Taoiseach discussed the questions of tolerance and peace in the future with representatives of the various communities in Ireland, including representatives of the Islamic faith here? The Taoiseach said in the Dáil two years ago that representatives of al-Qaeda cells were operating in Ireland. Did he raise that matter with the representatives of the various groups when he met them?
When the Taoiseach met representatives of the Catholic church, which owns many schools in this country, did he discuss the future of our education system with them? Organisations like Educate Together have called for a stronger focus on multidenominational education. Did the Taoiseach discuss the matter with the representatives of the Catholic church? Does he have a view on where our education system is heading? Did this issue arise at the meetings in question? I welcome the elevation of Cardinal Seán Brady to the hierarchy of the Catholic church. It is a great honour for him, his family and the country as a whole.
I had meetings earlier this year with a group that operates as a single representative body for the Islamic faith in Ireland. As Deputy Kenny knows, there are different segments and associations within that faith in this country. They operate in a single group for this purpose. I had those meetings earlier this year. I also had meetings with representatives of the Catholic church as part of that round of meetings.
I recall the meetings. The Garda Commissioner is responsible for the turban issue as it is an operational matter for the force. We had an extensive debate about Islam and the education system in Ireland. We spoke about the requirements of the schools in Clonskeagh. We discussed the practices of people of that faith who are being educated in other educational establishments. A number of educational issues raised by the group in question are being followed up within the Department of Education and Science. We had a number of discussions about the need for the Islamic community to integrate into Irish society as fully as possible. As Deputy Kenny knows, I have always had a practice of engaging with them and going to their Clonskeagh mosque on important occasions. I have done that for a number of years.
They are following those issues with the various Departments. Both they and I are very anxious to ensure that mistakes — or at least perceived mistakes — which were made in other jurisdictions are avoided and that they integrate into social life and organisations. The Constitution entitles them and any other faith group to their own practices but wherever possible there should be integration and dialogue. Their leadership is very anxious that this be the case.
They have a number of issues which are being dealt with by other Departments. As we have already stated, where possible, the different new communities in the country should be represented within the Garda Síochána, such as the Chinese and other nationalities as well as other groups such as the Islamic groups.
In the case of the Catholic church, there is ongoing dialogue between church representatives and officials of the Department of Education and Science regarding the school patron system. A number of pilot systems are currently being operated. I suggest the Deputy put down a question to the Minister for Education and Science as I have not been dealing with those issues. It is quite clear the churches will not be able to sustain and manage schools in the way they have done traditionally and there is a move towards a system of lay boards of management. Even so, there will be quite a number of changes within the structures over the next number of years and this is an ongoing major issue which is being dealt with by the Department of Education and Science.
It is estimated that next year, 58 new schools will be required in the greater Dublin area and that a total of 18,000 more children will commence primary level than will leave it. This means there will be a need for 18,000 new places. The challenge for the country, for Departments and for the collective churches is enormous. Those discussions with the Departments are ongoing and will continue for quite some time.
I agree with the Taoiseach that it is obvious changes in the structures, particularly at primary level, are required, considering the ownership of so many schools lies in the hands of the church. In that context, did the Taoiseach discuss the undoubted difficulties that many boards of management face in that they are voluntary and under the auspices of a patron? Is the church aware of the difficulties at this level? Was this included in the discussions on the changed structure to be adopted for future years?
One of the significant difficulties faced by the Taoiseach on behalf of the country is the confusion and lack of understanding between the Christian world and the Islamic world which comes to a head with the issue of Turkey's accession to the European Union, the issues to do with Iran and Iraq and the Middle East in general.
I refer to the University of Alexandria which has a significant cultural dimension to its education programme by examining the differences and difficulties which exist between religions and how a more profound and broad understanding can be achieved. Given that we are now dealing with a huge number of different nationalities due to immigration, is there a role for the involvement of education in some shape or other in dealing with cultural issues to promote understanding by persons of different religions and those who may be of the Christian faith? An understanding of culture and tradition would go a long way towards breaking down some of the barriers that clearly do exist. Was that issue raised, or does the Taoiseach see the Department of Education and Science, universities or the academic world having some role and dimension in that important area?
On the new community-type primary schools and the issue of multi-faith, I hope we will see a number of these developments moving next year. In west Dublin we have pilot schemes in place. Work is well under way on that and people are working hard to try to achieve integration in primary schools. Deputy Kenny is aware, as are other Members of the House, of the enormous progress that has been made. Several schools now have more than 20 nationalities and seven or eight religious or faith groups. Integration is taking place at that level. Schools receive additional resources to address class size, language training etc. By and large they are working out. Once there is not over-segregation, they can manage and are managing. I have visited a number of these schools in recent years and they are carrying out their job well.
We have come from a position of having a very small Muslim community. From the various groups and imams to whom I have spoken, I understand the community has grown to something in the region of 40,000 people and that is a considerable challenge. Many of them choose to go to Catholic schools but opt out for religion while many others attend colleges. This is something we will have to work hard at managing. It was easy enough to do it when the numbers were smaller. It is a big challenge for the Department but, in fairness to the imams and community leaders with whom I have had a number of meetings, apart from the one on which I am reporting here, they are very conscious of their role and clear about how they can work with the Department and engage with it to address the issue. This is probably working out also at third level.
This is an issue of which we must be very conscious. We are all familiar with many of the churches involved in the structural dialogue but there are many new ones and it is a question of managing all of these together. A large proportion of the immigrant population is from Africa now and we must try to integrate it into the schools. Both the pupils and their parents have been hugely supportive of doing that but it does require a hands-on effort. The Minister of State with responsibility for integration, Deputy Conor Lenihan, has had a number of meetings with these groups. We have to continue to work very closely with them.
As Deputy Kenny is aware, some groups and organisations have asked about separate schools and curricula. To be honest, I have not been forthcoming on that. I do not see it as being the way forward. We cannot do that. We do not have the resources to go down that road now or in the future. I am a strong believer in integration. This is Ireland and we have an Irish way of life. We will do the best we can to integrate people, to understand them and be considerate and thoughtful about that, and to engage in this process.
Regarding the chances of setting up schools, I do not wish to refer to one group or another but I have been asked by some groups and I have been asked by the politicians in their countries also to provide them but I have not given a shred of support to that. It is not something with which I agree. It is not possible for us to resource it. Only a limited number ask for it anyway. I have rejected it in all cases.
I support the structured dialogue process that has been initiated between the Government and the churches. Does the Taoiseach plan to widen that process to include the body politic as a whole? The process at present is confined to the Government and the churches. I understand that the churches have set out their priorities and concerns about issues they wish to have addressed as part of that process. The Taoiseach said some of the churches and faith groups had published some documents in that regard. Has the Government prepared or issued any documents in response to the issues they raised? I refer in particular to the education area, specifically the comments and suggestion made by the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, that his church was open to a new discussion with the State in respect of educational provision and how the patronage of schools might be organised in the future. In that context, has there been any discussion of the issues raised by some of the Protestant churches in respect of the proposed transfer of teachers from Catholic schools, which are closing down, to the panels from which Protestant schools draw their teaching staff?
I welcome Deputy Gilmore's support for the initiative. We are only eight months into it, which covers the general election and the summer break, so we do not have plans to extend it at this stage. We are trying to get it up and running. The agenda is enormously wide, ranging from the Humanist, Baha'i, The Religious Society of Friends or Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Lutheran Church and the Moravians to the more traditional groups we have been dealing with. It is a job keeping it together. We can perhaps engage more with Parliament ultimately, but at this stage we are just trying to build it up and fix the agenda. I am structuring it through a secretariat in my Department meeting and dealing with the issues and then trying to put them into a departmental structure where direct engagement will follow. It will ensure the issues are followed up and are not simply dropped. I hope that by next summer we will have a good process in that regard.
Obviously, some of the bigger groups seek more meetings and dialogue. The Deputy mentioned the comments of the Archbishop of Dublin. The archbishop has a huge diocese and huge physical resources in terms of his Catholic priests and his staff. The Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, has been involved in meetings at the Archbishop's Palace to consider how to proceed with this and examining the pilot scheme for opening up a new system. However, that must be dealt with carefully.
For the other groups, the main issues relate to education. Issues surrounding the registration of marriages and the forms of marriage is another large category, led by the Humanists. However, the large issue is education and how children can be protected and continue their role in society while maintaining their values and at the same time integrating into society. They want to play their part in society and they support the integrated model. However, on the matter of educating their children in the Jewish tradition or any other, they cannot all have their own schools. The cost would be prohibitive. That is a big challenge for the Department of Education and Science at a time when there is quite a large increase in the numbers entering the education system. As Deputies know, in recent years there has been a decline in the numbers attending primary and secondary school. That has now changed dramatically. This year, 15,000 additional children entered primary school and next year it will be 18,000. The increase has not yet hit our secondary schools but it will in a few years. At a time when members of many new religious groups are entering the country, there is pressure on our schools due to the additional pupils. It is a major challenge for us. We are engaging in discussions with all of these groups and trying to keep higher grants for the minority schools, as we always have done as a society, and provide maintenance grants for minority religions. Thus, the Department of Education and Science represents the largest part of the structural dialogue and also faces the biggest challenge.
Would the Taoiseach consider it a good idea to establish a national education forum? As he said, the majority of the issues being discussed as part of the structural dialogue, not surprisingly, centre around the area of education. He has given a good outline of the current situation, in which there is a large range of churches and an increasing demand for separate provision. Whether it is desirable from the point of view of integration, separate provision is not something that can be achieved from the point of view of resources. However, if separate provision cannot be made for some churches, this raises wider issues. These should be addressed in a new education forum where the needs of parents and their children are put on the table along with the wishes of the respective churches and the capacity of the State to respond to the different demands and aspirations for educational provision and a resolution arrived at.
There is not a great deal of time for discussion of these issues because, as the Taoiseach said, the children are already coming into the schools. We saw some evidence of the resulting pressure on primary schools this year. This will quickly work its way through to second level. Could this discussion be advanced more rapidly by a new national educational forum than by the structured dialogue?
I do not rule out Deputy Gilmore's suggestion, although I need to put it to the Minister for Education and Science, who deals with this on a weekly basis. All of the non-confessional organisations, faith communities and churches have set out their positions now and for the next few years. We have discussed this with the Department of Education and Science and incorporated it into the process. There is an educational forum within the Department in which dialogue is conducted directly with the trade unions and the patron bodies, although this may need to be extended. Thus, a forum exists in which these discussions can take place. However, I will put the point to the Minister.
There is close liaison between the various bodies and the process is a demanding one because it is new. As the Deputy will appreciate, it is something that did not exist five years ago, but it is now a substantial part of the work of the Department. The issue is whether the forum in the Department, which deals directly with the patron bodies and the trade unions, needs to be extended and I will put the Deputy's point to the Minister.
I join Deputy Kenny in extending congratulations to Cardinal Seán Brady on his elevation at the weekend.
On the Taoiseach's dialogue with the various churches and the different faith communities, the issue of education which previous speakers addressed in some depth is a vast and complex area. Can the Taoiseach give us a sense of the time he can devote in terms of these engagements to such an important and complex area?
In his respective engagements, is he meeting with the churches and faith communities individually or collectively to discuss this matter? Is this matter discussed collectively with representatives of the churches or is it on a one-on-one basis with the Taoiseach and representatives of the churches or the faith communities concerned?
I ask the Taoiseach to note that I concur with Deputy Gilmore regarding his proposal for a specific forum in which to address this matter more substantively. Will the Taoiseach elaborate on his disposition to this request? Given the position in north County Dublin in the late summer and early autumn period with the advent of the new school term, when children were not afforded schoolplaces because the management of the schools was under Catholic control and they accorded first access to children baptised into the Catholic religion and giving those children precedence over children of other faith communities, does the Taoiseach accept that this indicates there is an urgency in this area?
There is a universal acceptance — it goes without saying, given all the points made — of the tremendous role the Catholic church and other churches have played in the provision of education for the greater number of us. It simply would not have been provided otherwise because the State has clearly failed in its role and function of providing State education at all levels.
I met Cardinal Brady before he left and I will meet him on his return later in the week. His elevation to Cardinal is a great honour for the island, North and South.
To answer Deputy Ó Caoláin regarding the structure and how I have handled these meetings, it is a new position. We only held the inaugural meeting of everybody in Dublin Castle at the end of February last. I and a number of Ministers relevant to the agenda meet representatives of the church. As the churches cover the entire island, it is usually a sizable delegation with representatives from their various communities.
A church.
A church. The next group will be the Presbyterian Church, which will be a separate meeting. The Methodist Church will be next followed by the Orthodox churches, which are being met as a group. I also meet the Islamic faiths as a group. As Deputy Ó Caoláin will be aware, there are different bodies but I try as much as possible to bring the Imams together for these purposes. We have most, although one group may not be represented.
That is the order and we take it as per the agenda with the relevant Ministers. For example, there have been communications with the Catholic church, Presbyterian church, Methodist church and, to a lesser extent, the Baptist church and they have their own structures built up over many years, but the others do not. There has never been much dialogue with the Humanist Association. I have visited the Religious Society of Friends, the Quakers, who have played a significant role in the State, but the Baha'i community is relatively new. We try to bring them together in a national body. While some have small memberships, their members and communities are active. I have spent a year trying to organise this and to move their agenda items into their communities.
Education is a big part of this issue. The Islamic faith is seeking to make arrangements with local authorities to build new mosques and get land. Some other churches are trying to seek limited assistance. On education, a number of things have happened. A new integration unit has recently been established around the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, in meeting communities and attending meetings with me to co-ordinate the work of the new communities. The new unit is important. There are new multi-faith community primary schools, of which we hope to have one up and running next year. Co-ordination is happening in respect of the schools in the four Dublin local authority areas and the surrounding areas of Meath, Louth, Kildare and Wicklow where a lot of the growth is happening.
There is a forum in the Department of Education and Science, but I do not deal with it and I am not totally familiar with its workings. It deals with trade unions and patron bodies. That is operating it. The conference of bishops at Maynooth recently stated the Catholic church's positive preference towards facilitating diversity and that they are open to change. Due to the growth in these schools and the population generally, many of these schools will have a large number of multinational, but also multi-faith, pupils. It is a challenge. Much good work is being done and many schools in Dublin West, the centre of the city and in other places have worked well. Good models are being built up. There has been a very large increase in the number of teachers. The number of language teachers has increased by 400% in the last few years, including 800 teachers this year.
Most of these issues are ongoing. I do not deal with the day-to-day educational details, but we are managing these issues. In so far as we possibly can, we must keep the new communities integrated in our schools. These schools will move to a new model and, in some cases, new patrons, which is probably inevitable because the churches, due to resources, will not be able to play their traditional parts. Like the Deputy, I agree with the enormous role they have played, but because of their numerical strength, they will not be able to play it. The Department is conscious of this, but the structure and patronage issues are being dealt with by the Department of Education and Science. Models are being rolled out, which is important. Educate Together and other bodies are being well facilitated by the Department of Education and Science.
I accept the Taoiseach has dealt with this issue comprehensively, giving examples of the education side of integration policy. Will he agree there is a strong need for education for those immigrants from different faiths and ethnic backgrounds beyond school-going age?
In Cork city there is a large demand for English language teaching. Several voluntary organisations provide it but are just scraping funds together to do so. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, is working on the issue but I appeal to the Taoiseach to examine it in a proactive way. There is a large appetite for such education. Immigrants must be encouraged to learn to speak English so they can integrate in a more proactive way socially and in the workplace.
It is important for us to accommodate different faiths, cultures and languages within the education system. It is also important to reassure those religious organisations, be they Presentation Brothers or Christian Brothers or other religious orders, which have made a fantastic contribution to education. Within some schools, there are concerns that the potential exists to undermine a religious ethos in education which they have built up over a prolonged period. It is important to ensure parents have an opportunity to choose to send their children to a school with a certain background and religious ethos.
As the Taoiseach said, this is Ireland. We need to invest in accommodating difference and diversity as the modern Ireland continues to change. We also need to reassure those who have built up a positive religious ethos in schools that it will continue to be supported by the Government.
Last weekend the Taoiseach paid a visit to his paternal city, Cork, but failed to make it to his maternal constituency, Cork South-West. When he comes back to Dublin, he is a real Dub.
This is a very different form of ecumenism.
While he was in Cork, did the Taoiseach have any good tidings for the city? Did he meet the Cork Chamber of Commerce to discuss the exorbitant debt hanging over Cork Airport? Did he discuss the resumption of the Cork-Swansea ferry? Is there any light at the end of the tunnel on both these matters? The future prosperity of the Cork South-West constituency lies with Cork Airport being debt-free and the resumption of the Cork-Swansea ferry service.
I am finding tremendous difficulty in relating either matter to church dialogue. I call on Deputy Michael D. Higgins.
A Cheann Comhairle, you should have advised me to adhere to church matters. On that, I am delighted the Taoiseach has such knowledge of religious beliefs around the world. I hope he is making a conversion. Our Lord said that in his father's house there are many mansions. I hope the Taoiseach will accommodate them.
The Taoiseach has many mansions.
On the less heady aspect of education, a fundamental question arises as to the role of the teacher, which seems to me to have slipped away. Teachers are anxious to retain the integrity of the professional relationship with the child. Whoever is being taught, the relationship between the teacher and the pupil is the important one. Surely teachers would want to aspire to an equality of prospects for permanent employment and promotion within whatever mixed model emerges. This relates to an earlier question. If either of the two denominations were to hold out on the exemption they have achieved in the Equality Act an absurd situation would arise whereby the most highly qualified teachers, who may be specialists in teaching difference or difficulties associated with English as a foreign language, would not have the assurance of permanency, promotion or establishment. Their professional prospects would be heavily compromised and one would preside over inequality within what purports to be a system accommodating new difference.
I agree 100% with Deputy Coveney's views. We must maintain, support and encourage those who have made such a significant contribution. They have stated that they are open to change because of their own position and because they want to facilitate diversity. That change must, however, accommodate their ethos and what they have done. Traditionally, they belong to the church and have fought for their ethos but they have never stopped people joining classes in their schools and have accommodated them and made arrangements for religious difference, excluding people from parts of the curriculum while allowing them to attend the schools. That good practice is being used in many schools around the country where we never expected to have multi-denominational schools with people from various religious backgrounds and faith communities. We must build on what we have and keep our religious people involved in the changing structure because they have achieved this over the years.
The former Deputy de Valera, when she was Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science, built up significant resources for the unemployed and others and I have been made aware in the past year that much of that resource has been moved to cater for the new Irish, the people who come here. The demand for English language tuition exceeds supply by a fairly high factor and we must improve capacity. We should encourage it and make sure that we have space for it. Given that demand for English language tuition is very high, it is eating into the resources set aside for the long-term unemployed. It now assists the new Irish, which is good, but we must keep the resources there because it is stretching the system.
I do not want to put the Cork-Swansea ferry into a tunnel because it would not float very well. I have seen the state-of-the-art airport in Cork, one of the most modern to be seen anywhere.
It has not been paid for yet.
It has a €200 million debt.
I have no doubt that a very small contribution would resolve these issues so Deputy P.J. Sheehan might put in a good word to contribute to the hundreds of millions of euro that have been invested in it. If the Deputy used his considerable powers in the area that could all be wrapped up before the Christmas period.
In response to Deputy Higgins, the role of the teacher is crucial because the teacher must deal with the changed situation whereby in many schools it is not uncommon to have 15 or 20 nationalities and seven or eight religions. That is happening and doing well in schools with Catholic boards of management.
The Ceann Comhairle has greater knowledge of the equality issue than I do and it is a matter that involved a great deal of negotiation with the churches. I am aware of the historical difficulties that relate to ethos and power of employment and they do not apply only to one church, as the churches bind together tightly on this matter, but the subject may not be as difficult to address as previously because the system has changed from what it traditionally was. There are now more religions represented in Ireland and schools and boards of management are showing more flexibility. In individual cases issues such as morals and standards may arise but one will not receive much of a response from the churches on such matters. I went through this issue with the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy O'Donoghue, when he was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and it is one on which the churches act collectively.
I take the point that we must embrace the fact that 10% of the population, over 400,000 people, come from other communities. The process of successful integration into Irish society must begin with education. The teacher plays the main role in making this happen.
