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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 2007

Vol. 643 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

The country is now aware of the extent of the epidemic of cocaine and its consequences for young people. At this moment, several young people are literally fighting for their lives. The tragedy and consequences inflicted on families have been visibly evident in recent days. Garda sources say publicly that incidents such as the collapse of the two men in Longford and Westmeath are daily occurrences. Also, in some hospitals, even in fairly rural areas, between five and six people are admitted for cocaine complications every weekend. In Dublin over the past weekend, a number of people were taken to Tallaght Hospital after taking drugs and hospital staff say they see it all the time now.

RTE deserves some compliments on how it went about the business of producing last night's "Prime Time" programme, which exposed the scale of the vicious underbelly of Irish society, where those who peddle, deal in and buy drugs are involved in the current epidemic in our country. When we consider that the majority of the 269 toilets investigated and analysed showed traces of cocaine use, this demonstrates the extent of what is involved. To date, the Government has put forward a Minister of State with responsibility for drugs strategy, Deputy Pat Carey. He is a decent man and his heart is in the right place, but he has not been given Cabinet clout to deal with the issue head on.

In previous years we had Operation Shannon, which dealt with people crossing the Shannon to raid rural houses, and Operation Anvil, which was set up to deal with gangland killings. Is it not time to have a Cabinet-led initiative to deal with drug dealing, drug barons and drug pimps, in all their forms, including those who use cocaine? Some people seem to think they are immune from the law. Unless the issue is tackled head on, it will continue to have the most serious consequences for people all over the country.

The Taoiseach said on 13 February that this was not a cause for serious concern and that he did not believe drugs were available in every town and parish in the country. Has he changed his mind now on the basis of the evidence produced on the "Prime Time Investigates" programme, which showed the blatant and public sale of cocaine at high profile locations, such as Croke Park, the Galway races, the horse show and elsewhere? People turn a blind eye to such behaviour as if it were socially respectable and acceptable. Can I take it that the Taoiseach, as Head of Government, will build on the platform put in place by the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, by leading a Cabinet initiative on this matter? People will continue to take cocaine and other drugs until they realise the Government is serious about dealing with the drug epidemic throughout the country. What is the Government's response to the exposure by "Prime Time Investigates" of the scale of what is going on?

I join Deputy Kenny in remembering those who have died in recent days. I commiserate with their families and remember the families of those who are ill. The Deputy rightly said that this is an ongoing problem. I said that last week in the House. As someone who is honoured to represent a city centre constituency, I am aware that the incidence of drug use has not changed much over the past 20 years. It has been occurring since the early 1980s. Last night's "Prime Time Investigates" was broadcast in the context of a recent focus on drug use. I acknowledge wholeheartedly the good work that was done by those who made the programme. I also mention the work done by the Irish Examiner a few weeks ago. It is good that there is such a focus on this issue. I do not think this is a new problem, however. We are hearing about it from those who have been to accident and emergency departments, for example. It is not new. It is good that people are being educated about the problem.

I will not repeat what I said in the House on 13 February last. Deputy Kenny knows my views on the broad-brush approach of those who think every young person is involved in drugs. That is not the case. I agree with a number of the Deputy's comments. I assure him that the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Pat Carey, and his predecessor, Deputy Noel Ahern, has the total support of the Cabinet, including the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and the Ministers of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. This broad issue, which affects sectors like health and education, is rarely off the Cabinet table. We consider the issue in one form or another in terms of drug-related gangland killings, seizures made by the Criminal Assets Bureau or the powers provided for in the Criminal Justice Acts. In fairness, these ongoing issues have been handled by successive Governments over a number of years.

I will raise one of the issues raised by Deputy Kenny. I reiterate that according to the latest figures, 120 people died from drug use. There are always difficulties in identifying the cause of death in coroners' reports and autopsies. Less than ten of these deaths were from cocaine use. While I welcome the fact that everybody is talking about cocaine, cocaine as a killer in terms of drugs accounted for eight or nine out of that 120. The use of all forms of drugs — new ones, old ones and everything in between — is the issue we have to combat.

I strongly agree with Deputy Kenny that a number of groups need to be considered as part of this debate. I refer to those who are peddling and selling drugs and those who are engaged in criminal activity such as the importation of drugs. I will mention all the things we are doing to deal with such people. We have established specialist units to work on security and all the other issues involved. While the middle people in the drugs sector are sometimes smaller criminals, they are certainly criminals. We should also focus on those who use drugs. If there was no market for drugs, the people I have mentioned would not be in business. Everybody has to deal with this. We have a cross-departmental group working on this. A number of Ministers are on the social inclusion committee that I chair.

I was asked whether we need to look at doing more things. A number of my colleagues spoke today about bars and pubs. As I have said previously, if some 13 year olds sit at a bar counter and start to drink beer, the publican will react because they are breaking the law. If people take drugs in the toilets or in any other part of the pub, people have responsibilities as well. I have seen in my constituency and elsewhere the Garda using its powers to close pubs which allow drug-taking, or are tacitly easy on the drugs issue. The Garda aims to identify, target and dismantle national and international drug-trafficking networks which supply and distribute illegal drugs. If necessary, I can go through the many operations which are in force. If one looks at the figures, one will see it is not easy, and the Garda has pointed out that this is not just its responsibility.

The value of recent drug seizures demonstrates how active the Garda is and gives an indication of the amount of drugs present. Heroin worth €22 million, cannabis worth €13 million and ecstasy worth €3 million has been confiscated so far this year. I accept that the seizure of drugs worth €120 million at Dunlough Bay in County Cork probably would not have happened in the normal course of events. It seems that the drugs were destined for the international market in that instance. The Garda is also targeting people involved in the supply of drugs at the lower end of the scale and have been concentrating on this more recently. Many members of the Cabinet met senior Garda management approximately six weeks ago to discuss policing priorities, the Garda Síochána Act, the enhanced activity of the Garda drugs unit and the work of the force in general, particularly in so far as it relates to places where the presence of drug dealers and the use of illicit drugs is likely. Approximately ten new legislative measures have been introduced over the last two years to target drug use more strongly.

Dealing with this issue is not a question of Garda resources. I do not think there is a problem in that respect. We would be fooling ourselves if we were to think all the answers to the question of dealing with drug abuse lie with the Garda, or indeed with other State agencies. It is clear the State has responsibilities, which it takes very seriously, but so too have individuals. The Misuse of Drugs Acts give considerable powers to gardaí to search anyone if they have reasonable cause to believe a drugs offence, such as simple possession, is being committed. There is no problem. I have asked many times over the last week why the Garda does not go into house parties at which people are taking cocaine. The Garda has strong powers in this regard. If gardaí suspect that drugs are being taken, they have the power to act.

I will be frank — I would like the law to be enforced more strongly. I keep answering questions about the need to give the Garda more powers. The force has been given strong powers by successive justice Ministers. At none of my meetings with the Garda this year has it been suggested that its powers are in any way inadequate. It might be easier for people to understand that if they were to see the law being enforced a little more strongly. That is a matter for the Garda, however, as I cannot start directing its actions. The Garda knows the Government's views on this issue. There has been a recent spate of deaths, sadly. The Government will continue to deal with this issue as a priority on its agenda.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I would like the House and the Government to send out the message that they are really serious and deadly serious about the issue of drugs. I guarantee the Taoiseach that Fine Gael will support Government initiatives aimed at dealing with drug dealers and those who break the law. I agree with the Taoiseach that it is not all down to the Garda. However, Garda activity did not prevent 92% of the toilets which were investigated by "Prime Time Investigates" from showing traces of cocaine. It is not bringing an end to the influx of drugs into this country. It is not stopping people from making starter ecstasy tablets available to young people for €2.50. It has not averted the sale of heroin on the streets of Dublin and other cities and towns. It is not discouraging those who are snorting cocaine as we speak. The message being sent out by the Government is that while we have had some spectacular successes — drugs worth €100 million were found off Mizen Head — we have not done anything to stem the flow of the drugs problem.

Perhaps the soft social perception of the respectability of cocaine use will not be jolted out of its lethargy until a high-profile personality is jailed for cocaine use. We recall the effect of the jailing of Lester Piggott, for different reasons, in England some years ago. People will begin to sit up and take notice of just how serious Government — with a capital G — can be. Speaking yesterday to 300 young people, I understood that nobody among them — I agree with the Taoiseach in this regard — wants to take something with rat poison or other mixing agents in it. Would anybody eat a slice of ham off the cistern of a toilet? Why would they put cocaine powder on an unclean cistern and snort it? Is it bravado, peer pressure or absence from reality? We must show that the Government is serious about dealing with drugs by building on the platform of the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, as a Cabinet initiative and sending out the message that the Taoiseach will lead a Cabinet charge to deal with this.

The Taoiseach mentioned one point that I know is a problem. When setting up this Cabinet initiative, the Government should call in club owners and publicans. They are given commercial licences to sell alcohol and the vast majority run their businesses in a respectable fashion. However, they have a problem in assessing the conditions or requirements for the entry of persons on to their premises. There have been instances in which people have taken legal cases because they were refused entry to a public premises. Will the Taoiseach consider the Equal Status Act 2000 and related Acts which cause difficulty for publicans or club owners where they might suspect that someone is dealing in drugs or is likely to be taking drugs? Equally, the Taoiseach should send out a clear message that premises in which drug dealing is known to be tolerated, as distinct from going on unbeknownst to the owners, will be closed down.

I appreciate the constructive points made by Deputy Kenny. I will not stand here and say I am happy with the situation because the enforcement powers must be used. I have seen the Garda take a tough line by going to the courts and using its powers to close licensed premises in which it believes there is regular drug-taking, or at least activities around it. However, we need to see far more than that. If there are premises that are tolerant towards this activity or in which illicit drugs of any kind are used, tough measures must be taken. I do not want to say that the Garda does not already do that in some cases. In the case of under-age drinking the Garda has strong powers. I am not saying that under-age drinking should be tolerated, but if we can close down a place for abuse of the law on under-age drinking, it is even more important that tough measures are taken where the sale, distribution or use of drugs is taking place.

That is not happening in a large number of places, although I accept the points made about percentages in the "Prime Time Investigates" programme. There are not many places in any community that have a reputation for being druggie houses, as they are commonly known, although that activity may be taking place in secret. The Garda is capable of taking tough action. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform has told the Garda in meetings since the summer, as the previous Minister and the one before that said, if extra powers are necessary to make it easier for the Garda to remove licences, they will be granted. I would say the same thing with regard to nightclubs. If large pubs or nightclubs do not work towards improvement in this area, they should be put out of business for six months. They would not like that, but we must consider measures such as this. I do not want to go around waving every stick unless it is necessary, but we will take measures that are necessary. Six months with no licence would cause owners of premises to lose their incomes, which is another issue.

These activities are taking place not only in pubs and nightclubs but also in homes and at parties. Nobody wants to be a spoilsport coming up to the Christmas period, but drug-taking at parties cannot be tolerated. The stories cannot all be wrong. I am not saying it is happening at every party or at 10% of parties, but everybody cannot be wrong, including Members of this House. The Minister of State at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Pat Carey, has a strong knowledge of this as he spends every hour of the day with groups active in this area. I am told that crystal meth, the new drug on the beat, puts cocaine into a different perspective. It can cause enormous damage. Cocaine causes major damage to the liver and the heart. Altogether, 120 people are killed every year by drugs. If we need to strengthen our laws, we can do so. This is an issue about which the Garda and society must be serious. The message from this House is that we will take a tough line.

The current focus on this issue is welcome. This is not a new problem. I accept that it did not start this week or last week. We must be tough as a society. The powers are there. The legislation provides for ten-year or 14-year sentences for certain drugs offences. People can serve longer sentences for offences of this type than for murder. This has been provided in the legislation for a long time. As pointed out by the Garda, many people are already behind bars, including a number of gang members. Catching offenders is the difficulty, but there is a significant success rate. People are being put behind bars for 14 years, although we would like to see far more of them. That is the message from this House.

I join the Taoiseach and Deputy Kenny in commiserating with the families who have lost loved ones in the past week or so and the families of those who are still ill, the most recent victims of drugs in our society.

I was glad to hear the Taoiseach's second reply to Deputy Kenny because I was a little concerned when I heard his first reply that there may have been a sense of playing down the seriousness of the cocaine problem in this country. A number of people have been commenting on the events of the past week as representing a watershed, particularly in terms of emphasising that cocaine is not a safe or acceptable drug. There is much talk about a bad batch doing the rounds. There is no such thing as a good batch of cocaine. We have seen in recent years a dramatic increase in the supply of cocaine in this country. Convictions are up fourfold and seizures have risen by a factor of nearly 20. Large amounts of cocaine are being seized. A total of 70% of waste water in Dublin is contaminated with cocaine. We saw the excellent "Prime Time Investigates" programme on this subject last night, which showed us how widespread is the use of cocaine in our society.

The Labour Party wishes to support the actions of the Government in this area. I have great respect for the Minister of State, Deputy Carey. We support his comments and his efforts and I hope the Government will do likewise. There are, however, a number of legislative measures that need to be taken. I referred to some of these during previous Leaders' Questions. We must smash the supply chains for cocaine and other illicit drugs. We must smash the drug barons and gangs who are supplying drugs in our society. I ask the Taoiseach to consider, in the positive sense in which I make this suggestion, two legislative measures that have been advanced by the Labour Party in recent times, the Witness Protection Programme Bill and the Garda Síochána (Powers of Surveillance) Bill, which was recently published by Deputy Rabbitte. These two measures would help in the effort to smash the drugs gangs and the supply of drugs in this country.

Will the Taoiseach consider the anomaly in terms of the powers of the Garda under the licensing laws and its powers to deal with suspected drugs offences? It is an anomaly that, under licensing legislation, a garda can enter a public house, licensed premises or night club without a warrant to inspect whether there is a breach of the licensing laws. However, if the garda wants to examine whether drugs are being used in toilets or generally on the premises, he or she must get a warrant. Some legislative change could be made in this respect to allow gardaí more freedom and ability to deal with the problem.

I accept the Taoiseach's point that much of this transpires in private houses, at private parties and so on, but there is an anomaly in the powers of the Garda under licensing laws and its general powers regarding clubs and places of entertainment. Will the Taoiseach examine these matters as a way to deal with the issue?

I will look at any suggestions. On the Deputy's point, I have seen the Garda operate in licensed premises that got out of control. The searches were done under the misuse of drugs legislation. The Garda quotes in its search warrants that it has the power to search anyone wherever they have reasonable cause to believe there has been a drug offence, including simple possession. The Garda has that power, which I have seen operating. It depends on how it operates in different areas. I will raise the Deputy's suggestion but, as I have seen it done in some places, it can obviously be done in other places.

We have raised the other legislative measures, such as on the protection of witnesses, with the Garda. It is not attached to the measure. It says that it is satisfied with its powers and how it operates those powers in the fight against drug barons. It has some concerns about fighting in another way that I need not go into. I will raise these issues.

The Garda divisions and Criminal Assets Bureau have made this their key issue in their policing priorities. They have stated that they will have enhanced liaison arrangements so that people engaging in drug dealing and the criminal elements involved — the main people bringing in large quantities of drugs — can be caught and charged under legislation passed by this House that is quite draconian. We will continue to ensure that the Garda has sufficient resources to tackle the problem but as long as there is a market, others will step forward to continue this dastardly trade even as we put people away and see that they are sentenced.

Those who use drugs are not only putting their own lives in danger, as seen recently, but they incur enormous health care costs on the rest of society. Everybody should take a tougher line. People do not tolerate what is happening in their communities. The powers are there to put pressure on communities, both from the Garda and society generally. I will gladly bring any suggestions that are made to the Garda. The new Commissioner and the divisions want to continue with and build on their work under former Commissioner Conroy and to try to crush the people involved in drug activity. It is for the rest of us to try to convince those who use drugs and believe it to be in some way socially acceptable in pubs, clubs, halls, their homes or anywhere else.

I do not disagree with the Taoiseach on the demand for drugs. We may need a discussion on our society's deeper issues to determine why there is such an abuse of substances, but the most immediate matter that can be dealt with is supply. It is cheaper to buy a line of cocaine than it is to buy a pint in this city. Despite the drug seizures and convictions, there is an enormous supply of cocaine and other illegal drugs in this country.

At the heart of this issue is the trade benefiting from drugs. We have seen the gang wars, killings and shootings associated with the drugs trade. The Taoiseach is satisfied that the Garda has the powers he has described, but why is the trade continuing? Why is the supply of cocaine on the increase? Why are the powers so ineffective? Some answer is needed.

In getting convictions, there is a problem in producing witnesses and in witnesses coming forward. There is also a problem in assembling evidence, for which reason we have proposed the Garda surveillance Bill. Its measures are necessary to deal with this issue. If the Taoiseach says otherwise, he or, through him, the Garda owes an explanation as to why the drug trade is continuing at this level because it is on the increase.

I have said that I will look at any legislative measures. I raised directly with the Commissioner and senior management of the Garda the protection of witnesses legislation. They explained to me at some length how the system operates. There are a number of people in the scheme. They believe that moving further is not necessary because of the system they operate, but I will make the point again. I understand the Deputy is making it in good faith.

It operates more effectively in other countries.

There is a large amount of drugs coming in. That is a fact and we should do whatever we need to do to help the Garda. It has put a number of special units on this issue and is engaging in a fairly large undercover activity to try to bring to justice those involved in the trade. It is using large numbers of units, not only in city areas but around the country. It is well known because it has been in the media, but gardaí posing as buyers are being used to identify and prosecute suppliers, which is something the Garda used not do. It is going after smaller individuals, as Garda activity is not confined to those who supply drugs, and thousands of people have been successfully prosecuted for simple possession, which is equally important. The new Commissioner has made clear that the Garda's priority is to give to the drugs problem, which he is reviewing with his people on the ground, all of the strategies it can and to do whatever it must on the ground. It will use Garda divisions, special units and CAB. If it is a question of resources, the Government must deal with it.

To state the obvious, this is a hugely lucrative business for the underworld because of the volume of trade. It has a sophisticated network across the world and is making large sums of money. This does not apply to every pusher, but it does to the ring leaders and criminal elements at the top, which makes it attractive. They have sophisticated intelligence and operate in every country, making it more difficult to seize them. They do not use very simple methods, which is one of the challenges for the Garda. At European level, we co-operate fully with Interpol, Eurojust and the other systems and must continue to do so.

With the focus of public opinion on the issue, it is time for the Garda to step up its activity. The Government will do whatever it must do if more legislation or resources are needed. We have introduced a huge number of Bills in the past few years, but if there are other issues, we will do whatever we must. We have given the Garda very large resources in terms of manpower, overtime and so on to deal with this issue.

We must look to the enforcement of the measures and maybe be more harsh on those businesses and so on that tolerate drugs in any way. This is not something one would ever want to do lightly, but everyone must play his or her part in trying to at least curb those activities. I did not outline all the remedial measures but I am aware that those involved in them are trying to help others in society. Whenever we speak about this issue, we do not always mention the victims but I take it as read that all the measures the Minister of State, Deputy Carey, his colleagues in the national drugs task force and others are bringing forward which are aimed at trying to assist victims should be implemented. I do not want to leave them out because some believe we look at only one side of the issue.

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