Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 2007

Vol. 644 No. 1

Priority Questions.

Defence Forces Reserve.

Jimmy Deenihan

Question:

44 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence the steps that have been taken to implement the recommendation of the Reserve Defence Force Review Implementation Board report, which was accepted by the Government, that the current members of the First Line Reserve of officers and men be reactivated and become involved in training of the RDF and that suitable members on discharge from the Permanent Defence Force should be encouraged to enlist with the FLR; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34476/07]

Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea)

The Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan provides for a phased approach to enhancing the capabilities of the Reserve Defence Force, RDF, over the period to the end of 2009. The introduction of new organisational structures, the development of new training syllabi and improvements in equipment and clothing have been successfully delivered as part of phase 1 of the plan. Phase 2 of the implementation plan is currently being carried out and a pilot scheme for the integrated Army Reserve has been initiated. A total of 180 personnel have completed the required training.

In line with the timeframe of the implementation plan, recommendations with respect to the First Line Reserve, FLR, are to be carried out during phase 2. The implementation group is currently working on these recommendations and I am looking forward to reviewing them in due course. Development of the FLR is also included in the modernisation agenda agreed with the Defence Forces representative associations in the context of Towards 2016 and will be advanced accordingly. The experience and knowledge of former Permanent Defence Force personnel of the FLR is extremely valuable and my primary objective is to ensure that this resource is utilised for the maximum benefit of the Defence Forces.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I am sure the Minister is aware that since the reform of the Defence Forces back in the early 1990s a large number of officers have retired and gone into alternative employment. This vast resource is now available to the Minister and with a bit of encouragement and incentive they could become part of the FLR. It was recently reported that there has been an alarming fall-off in the number of people joining the RDF. This was recently the subject of a question by Deputy O'Shea. Former officers could play an important role in revitalising the RDF because of their expertise, skill and training, which in many cases cost the country a lot. How will the Minister encourage these people to come back and join the FLR?

Would the Minister agree that since the reform of the Defence Forces there have not been as many Permanent Defence Force personnel available for training the Reserve Defence Force? They are just not available because they have so many duties, including those overseas. The group of people referred to in the question could fulfil that role and may even be more suitable, in the integrated Defence Forces, for travel abroad because they have previous experience of being abroad.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I will deal shortly with the question on the fall-off in numbers joining the RDF. To answer Deputy Deenihan's initial point, I agree there is a vast reservoir of potential talent that should be utilised. This was the view of the Reserve Defence Force Review Implementation Board. The Deputy will recall that the implementation plan for the RDF was to be delivered in two phases. Phase 1, which is all but complete, involves reorganisation and the provision of better training, clothing and equipment, and represents the start of the development of an integrated element in the RDF. We have now moved on to phase 2. We have specific recommendations from the implementation group that will be carried out. We are also awaiting comment from the military authorities on the recommendations with regard to the FLR.

However, my view and that of the implementation group, which I know we share with Deputy Deenihan, is that the FLR is a reservoir of talent and a valuable resource, although it has been allowed to fall into disuse since the mid-1980s. It only numbers about 375 at the moment because people are not being chased up, as the Deputy rightly pointed out. The FLR should be used and it has an important role to play in the integration programme we have planned for the RDF proper.

Deputy Deenihan

Will the Minister agree that this group could have a vital role to play in attracting more people back to the RDF? Some of the reasons for the fall-off in numbers include organisational difficulties and the question of the presence of professionals at all times at training camps and other exercises. The importance of attracting this reservoir of talent, as we have both described it, back into the Defence Forces is all the more important in that sense.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I agree that the FLR has a vital role to play in attracting people back into the RDF. That is the view of the implementation board. This is one of the uses to which it will be put in our programme. I hope to expand on this in later questions.

Overseas Missions.

Brian O'Shea

Question:

45 Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Defence the position in regard to the proposed deployment of Irish troops to Chad; if a new date for the operation has been set; if the issue of air support for the operation has been dealt with; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34478/07]

Deputy Willie O’Dea

On 20 November 2007, the Government authorised the despatch of a contingent of the Permanent Defence Force for service with the UN-mandated EU operation in the Republic of Chad and the Central African Republic. Dáil Éireann approved the necessary enabling motion on 28 November 2007.

It was initially expected that a Defence Forces initial entry force, comprising an advance party of approximately 50 personnel of the Army Ranger Wing and support elements, would deploy to the mission later this month. The main contingent, comprising some 400 personnel, which is currently undergoing selection and concentration prior to detailed mission-specific training, was expected to deploy in February or March 2008. However, the deployment of the initial entry force has been deferred until the new year as vital enabling elements such as helicopters, tactical aircraft and medical support associated with the launch of this operation are not yet in place. This deferral may — I emphasise the word "may" — have a knock-on effect on the deployment of the main body of the force.

I assure the House that there is no question of the Defence Forces deploying in theatre without the required enablers being in place. The shortfalls in vital key enablers for the mission are being actively examined and addressed by the operation commander in consultation with the European Union Military Committee. As I indicated to the House on 28 November 2007, I expressed my concerns about these shortfalls at a recent meeting of EU defence Ministers in Brussels. I urged my ministerial colleagues to consider the shortfalls and to actively support the mission, ensuring that it is adequately resourced and capable of fulfilling its mandate.

The current situation demands that all options should be explored in an effort to overcome the capability shortfalls for this mission. We need to do this expeditiously in order to reinforce the credibility of the ESDP as an EU instrument. To this end, I wrote to my EU ministerial colleagues last week appealing to them to consider constructively how they might be able to contribute to the successful launch and operation of this mission without further delay. The European Union has an opportunity to make a real and substantive contribution in Chad. If anything, the recent failure of the ceasefire and increase in hostilities points to the need for the international community, particularly the EU, to act to stabilise the situation and ensure vital humanitarian support for those on the ground.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

Could the Minister tell us whether the other EU defence Ministers are responding to his call to play their part in providing the necessary support? I know the Minister only wrote to them last week, but has there been any response yet? How does the Minister view the reported declaration by rebel forces in Chad that a state of war will exist against foreign soldiers? Is there a real prospect that the 400 members of the Defence Forces may not be sent as peacekeepers to Chad? Is the danger from militias and bandits worsening? Has the Minister had any recent reports from the representative of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

To answer the Deputy's last question first, I do not recall receiving anything from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. Something may have come to my Department but I certainly have not seen it personally. The recent declaration by the rebel forces is obviously a cause for worry. That cannot be gainsaid. However, this is not the first time that one or other of the militias there have declared that they would behave in a hostile way towards any foreign troops on Chadian soil. This is because they think the foreign troops are coming in to aid the French, who were previously the colonial masters of Chad and still have a substantial involvement there. However, we have been emphasizing that this is a UN-mandated EU humanitarian mission. The fact that the French, because of their interest in and knowledge of the area, are the main contributors to the mission is neither here nor there. We are going in to perform humanitarian tasks, protect refugees and save lives. We have factored in all these elements, including the possible attitudes of the militias, in our threat assessment. Having done so, the advice available to me is that we are confident the troops are sufficiently trained, prepared and equipped to meet the mission's substantial challenges.

On Deputy O'Shea's first question, the answer is, happily, yes. Other EU Ministers are responding and there is movement. Without being too specific, one country that I do not wish to name because it has not gone through the internal process yet has offered the medical supplies required. A number of others are discussing providing funding to assist yet other countries to supply necessary logistical support, including aircraft etc. It is possible that a new force generation conference will be arranged for next Wednesday. If so, it is a sign that we are on the verge of a breakthrough.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

Regarding air backup, particularly in terms of the number of helicopters required by MINURCAT, does the Minister agree with the number of 20 arrived at by the French? Is he confident that something like that will emerge from the European Council of Defence Ministers?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I do not want to get into numbers. In the Abéché area where the Irish troops will likely be based, we would need at least three med-evac helicopters and one fixed wing med-evac aircraft. More will be needed in other parts of Chad. We are making progress, the signs are hopeful and the operation commander, an Irish general — Lieutenant General Pat Nash — will not deploy the force until he and the EU Military Committee are satisfied beyond any shadow of a doubt that sufficient air support and other logistical supports are in place.

Jimmy Deenihan

Question:

46 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence the projected cost of transporting all Irish troops and their equipment, personal and otherwise, to and from Chad over the duration of the participation of the Defence Forces in the forthcoming EU mission there; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34559/07]

Deputy Willie O’Dea

The proposed deployment of a Defence Forces contingent to the UN-mandated EU operation in the Republic of Chad and the Central African Republic will be the most expensive operation on which the Defence Forces have ever been deployed.

As the House will be aware, Chad is landlocked and nearly 2,000 km from the nearest port facility. There are few if any roads or infrastructure over which to transport personnel or equipment. It is essential that the contingent be completely self-contained and capable of undertaking its operations without depending on the availability of immediate resupply or reinforcement.

Due to the remote location of the mission's area of operations, deployment and resupply of the contingent will mainly be by air transport and, therefore, extremely expensive. It is estimated the cost to the Defence Vote arising from the Defence Forces' participation in this mission for 12 months will amount to approximately €57 million, including Ireland's €1.3 million contribution to common costs. Provision to meet the additional costs of the operation has been made in the Defence Vote in the Estimates for 2008. Preliminary estimates indicate that the cost of transportation of Defence Forces personnel and equipment to the mission area, including resupply and rotation flights, will be in the region of €20 million.

I appreciate that participating in this mission will present many challenges for the men and women of the Defence Forces. However, the Government is committed to ensuring that all of the necessary resources are provided. While the expenses associated with the mission are substantial, it will be undertaking a vital task in providing basic security for more than 400,000 refugees, many fleeing the Darfur crisis.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

A figure of €20 million justifies the call I made to the Minister for Ireland to have its own transport capability. The figure of approximately €50 million has been mentioned in respect of two smaller aircraft with the capacity to transport people to and from Chad.

Last year, the Defence Forces acquired six new helicopters built to military spec. Why are they not being taken to Chad? They are supposed to be used by the military for military operations. Why are we leaving our people exposed in Chad if we have these at home? What are they being used for?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

The cost of the type of aircraft necessary to transfer troops and equipment like Mowags to a destination such as Chad is in the order of €75 million. I am also told that the equipment is expensive to maintain and use.

I realise that €20 million for transportation — I can give the Deputy a breakdown — is a great deal of money. This is the most expensive mission in which we have engaged and never before have we spent €20 million to transport troops as a result of a UN mandate. The location of Chad causes particularly difficulties in this regard.

Concerning acquiring such an aircraft, the opinion of the Department of Defence and the military is that the amount of use to which it would be put would not justify the outlay or ongoing expense. Deputy Deenihan will be aware that the Government is committed to producing another White Paper on defence to cover the ten year period following 2010. It will propose a cost benefit analysis of acquiring such an aircraft.

Regarding Deputy Deenihan's comments on our helicopters and the troops being exposed in Chad, I have lost count of how many times I have stated that there is no question of our troops being exposed to unnecessary danger.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

What about sending our helicopters out there?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I have told the House again and again that the force commander and the EU Military Committee will not deploy the force, including Irish troops, until they are fully satisfied——

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

That is acceptable.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

——beyond a shadow of a doubt that all necessary logistical supports are in place.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

What about sending our helicopters?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

We cannot send our helicopters because they do not have the range. It is a vast country that contains the Sahara Desert and is as large as France, Spain and Germany put together, if not larger. Our helicopters do not have the range to do the job of air transport in such a huge interior.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

May I ask a brief supplementary question?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The time for this question has expired. The Deputy may ask a brief supplementary question.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

It will be short. When not on military missions, could the aeroplanes not be used in the overseas aid programme, which is worth nearly €1 billion? We are spending a large amount of money to transport that aid around the world. Is there not a case for both uses?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

Deputy Deenihan asked a question that I forgot to answer, namely, for what are the helicopters used. They are used for training purposes, search and rescue missions, as Garda backup and as Navy backup in fisheries protection. Regarding their use for foreign aid, that is certainly something that——

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I am discussing going forward.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I appreciate that. It is worth considering and I will discuss it with my colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Defence Forces Reserve.

Brian O'Shea

Question:

47 Deputy Brian O’Shea asked the Minister for Defence his views on the reported resignation of almost 5,000 members from the Army Reserve during the past four years; the current membership of the Reserve and its establishment level; the steps he proposes to take to stem the flow of members from the Reserve and to replace those who have left; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34479/07]

Deputy Willie O’Dea

The White Paper on Defence 2000 outlines the blueprint for the Reserve Defence Force, RDF. The Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan provides for the phased enhancement of Reserve capabilities over the period to the end of 2009.

The plan provided for a non-integrated Army Reserve with an establishment of 9,292 personnel and a Naval Service Reserve with an establishment of 400 personnel, and these revised organisational structures came into effect in October 2005. As of 31 October 2007, there are 8,939 effective personnel, comprising 8,598 in the Army Reserve and 341 in the Naval Service Reserve. In addition, the plan provides for the development of an integrated Army Reserve. In accordance with the implementation plan, a pilot scheme has been initiated in 2007 and 180 personnel have completed the required training.

It should be noted that, as part of the implementation process, a more rigorous approach is now being taken to removing the names of non-effective personnel from unit rolls. This accounts for part of the fall in numbers. It is widely accepted that the retention of volunteers, in today's world, is increasingly difficult. I do not believe this is specific to the Defence Force Reserve. It is well known that many organisations have experienced difficulties in retaining volunteers. The challenge is to ensure that the Reserve remains an attractive and challenging option for members while ensuring that the appropriate capabilities are developed.

The many changes that have been introduced on foot of the Reserve Defence Force review implementation plan are addressing some of those key issues. Improvements in clothing, equipment and quantity and quality of training have been delivered. These factors were identified as being important issues for members of the Reserve, as well as being necessary to improve the overall capability of the Reserve.

Additional Information not given on the floor of the House.

The piloting of the integrated element of the Reserve is also providing the opportunity for those members of the Reserve who wish to avail of the increased training opportunities that this provides.

In recognition of this increased commitment by members of the Army Reserve and Naval Service Reserve, I have brought forward proposals to the Minister for Finance for a significant increase in the gratuity that is paid to members of the Reserve who complete specified voluntary training. The outstanding elements of the implementation plan will be addressed over the period to the end of 2009.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

The Minister will agree that when 40%, over 5,000 members, of a force disappear over a four-year period it is a serious matter, although I accept the point that some of those would be non-effective personnel. What effort has been made to ascertain the reason people left? Was a questionnaire provided, for example, either on a straightforward or confidential basis to ascertain why people left? If that has not been done, will the Minister take up the matter with the Defence Forces? That would be a worthwhile exercise because if the Minister does not know the reason people left, it is difficult to rectify the deficiencies in the current system.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I would not agree with Deputy O'Shea that there has been a fall-off of 40% in strict numbers terms. I have some figures in that regard. It may be 40% but the recent emphasis on taking non-active people, those who do not turn up for training on a regular basis, off the rolls has played a major part. Efforts were made to find out the reason people left. The Reserve Defence Force implementation group did a detailed survey on the reason people left and it was the results of that survey that informed the plan it has put forward. Some of the reasons it found were insufficiency of training, the financial rewards and alternative activities for people to do. It also found that the way the process was structured and organised in different locations throughout the country was not done to best effect. There is a detailed report on that which I can supply to Deputy O'Shea should he so wish. As a result of that investigation the group has made those recommendations. They are to be developed in two phases. We have substantially delivered on the first phase and we are now moving on to the second phase.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

In the period in question up to September of this year I calculate that 8.7% of officers, 17.9% of NCOs and 43.6% of privates have left. That is a matter of concern. Does the Minister know of any specific reason officers, for example, would have left? Are there any area specific proposals in this regard? In other words, are we simply embarking on a "one size fits all approach" or are there specific proposals for constituencies like mine which does not have a permanent Army presence similar to the one in the Minister's constituency and in a number of other constituencies?

Deputy Willie O’Dea

It is not a case of taking a "one size fits all" approach. The geography is important, as I pointed out. The Deputy will find that in the report and also in the recommendations.

On the numbers, the target in the White Paper between the integrated element of the Reserve and the ordinary element is approximately 11,800. The standing amount was approximately 8,939 on 31 October, almost 9,000, and therefore we are 2,500 to 4,000 short. That is a challenge we must meet in an environment where people have increasing demands on their time.

Defence Forces Training.

Jimmy Deenihan

Question:

48 Deputy Jimmy Deenihan asked the Minister for Defence his views on a role for the Defence Forces in establishing standards or benchmarks for fitness levels for people of various ages including primary and secondary schools; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34560/07]

Deputy Willie O’Dea

The role of the Defence Forces is laid out in the White Paper on Defence. It commits the Defence Forces to being actively involved in providing a broad range of services at home and challenging deployments overseas.

I have previously outlined the position on the forthcoming mission to Chad and the House will be familiar with the other overseas missions with which the Defence Forces are deployed. In addition, the Defence Forces have ongoing operational commitments at home in accordance with the roles set out in the White Paper. Some examples include fishery protection, cash escorts, prisoner escorts, guarding public installations, etc. In order to sustain the level of operational deployments the Defence Forces are undertaking, the Defence Forces must continuously undertake appropriate training.

Fitness is an integral part of overall Defence Forces training, with the objective of ensuring that personnel have appropriate fitness levels to perform the challenging tasks they are expected to perform. The personnel of the Defence Forces are excellent role models in that regard and I appreciate Deputy Deenihan's recognition of that fact.

Enhancing the health and fitness standards of military personnel formed one of the cornerstones of the modernisation process in the Defence Forces. There has been a major effort in implementing appropriate regimes of physical training. However, the Defence Forces do not have the mandate or resources to tackle this issue for the population as a whole. Accordingly, there are no plans for the Defence Forces to take on a role with regard to the fitness levels of school children.

The health of the general population is a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Health and Children, and provisions with respect to school curricula are a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Education and Science.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

Since the Defence Forces set their own levels of fitness in the 1980s and refined them in the 1990s, the fitness levels of our Defence Forces members have increased considerably. One can see that in those escorting cash transits, for example, and when members of the Defence Forces are in public. Perhaps I am being misunderstood to some extent but I suggest the Defence Forces could set the levels. I am not asking that they should be involved in visiting schools or the general population but they could set the levels of fitness attainment as they have done with their own personnel. That is done in West Point, in the United States. Universities throughout America look to West Point for the desired levels of fitness for particular age groups. There is nothing like that in primary and post-primary schools here where we now have a major obesity problem, with one in five children under 12 obese or overweight. There is a similar problem in the adult population.

There is a need for someone to set the standards because the Minister for Education and Science has failed. There is no great interest apart from a number of small initiatives from the Department of Health and Children. No one is taking responsibility for the general fitness of the population or even issuing guidelines that are credible and the Army could have a role to play in this regard. The Army could allow the public access to their facilities throughout the country. For example, the new gymnasium in the Curragh cost €6 million but it lies idle when the military are not using it. That facility could be used. Before the last election, the Minister promised to provide a new state-of-the-art gymnasium-sports hall in Limerick. I suggest that the schools in South Hill, Moyross and elsewhere should be allowed use that facility when it is built.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

Perhaps I did misunderstand Deputy Deenihan's statement issued over the weekend.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I did not issue any statement.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I read a statement in the paper.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I was coming to that. That is the next question.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I assumed you issued it as it was in your name.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Minister address his remarks through the Chair?

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I did not issue any statement. Somebody was reading my mind.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I am sorry somebody is issuing Deputy Deenihan's statements and putting his name to them.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

No. There was no statement issued about anything.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

If it does not involve the Army going out to schools, I am relieved to hear that because we have approximately 25 fitness instructors in the Army and there are 4,000 schools in the country.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

There are 300 personnel——

Deputy Willie O’Dea

I am giving the Deputy the official figures. There are 25 full-time and 90 part-time instructors.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

There are 300 qualified——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Minister reply.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

There are not 300 qualified. The figures are 25 and 90; those are the levels.

As regards setting the standards, if the Minister for Education and Science, who has responsibility in this area, wants to use the physical standards set by the Army as the standards by which physical education is to be taught in schools, I have no problem with that. They can have access to what we have got; there is no difficulty in that regard.

Regarding access to public facilities, such as gyms etc., Deputy Deenihan can be assured that when we build the new gymnasium in Limerick, I will ensure people from those areas have access to it. It is a matter for the military commander in each individual area. I will have a word with my people in the Curragh about use by the general public.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

The other element of defence force training is posture development. I have an interest in this from my days of teaching physical education. The Defence Forces have the best expertise to encourage posture correction and development. We have a major problem with posture in schools because young pupils are crouching over their desks or slouching in chairs. The principles used by the Defence Forces in posture development could play an important role in tackling this.

Deputy Willie O’Dea

If the Department of Education and Science wishes to take any initiative in that regard, we will co-operate in every way.