Before we begin Priority Questions, I wish to ask a question. I submitted a question, which I thought was legitimate, regarding my concerns about the new arrangements with the US. However, the question was disallowed and given to the Department of Finance. I know it cannot be changed now and it probably got caught among the various offices, but in light of the news this week about the dollar and so on, which may eventually cause American companies to pull out of Ireland, I thought it was a legitimate question. I am disappointed it was not allowed, but I understand it cannot be fixed now. Many questions lately have not been getting through. Maybe we are writing them wrongly but in this case a lot of thought went into writing it correctly. I am surprised and disappointed it was not on the priority list.
Priority Questions.
That is noted on the record, but I assure the Deputy the analysis is objective.
We are open to all questions——
I am glad to hear that.
——subject to the parameters of Standing Orders.
There is always a sting in the tail.
It is the best crutch.
I always bow to the superior wisdom of the Ceann Comhairle.
The Minister is open to all questions but not necessarily all answers.
I am glad you said that, a Cheann Comhairle.
EMERGE Project.
Denis Naughten
Question:1 Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the steps he will take to implement the key recommendations of the EMERGE programme run under the EU EQUAL programme; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8561/08]
The EQUAL programme has provided co-funding to 43 projects over the programming period, one of which is the EMERGE project, which operates under the entrepreneurship pillar of the programme. The aim of the EMERGE project was to develop methodologies for the development and expansion of ethnic minority enterprises, EMEs and to assist EMEs in overcoming business obstacles within the regulatory and cultural environment.
The EQUAL programme is now coming to a close. The experimental approach of EQUAL has provided the opportunity to test new ways of integrating marginalised groups into the workforce, preparing them for the world of work and increasing the skills of those already in employment.
Innovation has been a key component and building block of the EQUAL programme and the EMERGE project has successfully developed innovative solutions to help respond to the specific needs of ethnic minority entrepreneurs. In November 2007, the project launched the report Harnessing the Potential: Promoting Ethnic Minority Entrepreneurship in Ireland, which outlines the need to harness the potential of our ethnic entrepreneurs and to ensure that the required supports and training are in place. My colleague Deputy Brian Lenihan, Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, addressed the launch and welcomed the key findings and recommendations of the report. Some responsibility for the subject matter and policy issues concerning participants in EMERGE lies within his remit.
The success of the EMERGE project under the EQUAL programme has resulted in mainstreaming of the EMERGE approach by the Fingal County Enterprise Board with the support of local state agencies. The Institute for Minority Entrepreneurship has taken on the EMERGE approach and Skillnets funding amounting to €350,000 has been secured for EMERGE skillnets.
It is clear there is great potential for fostering entrepreneurship among the immigrant population in Ireland. My Department welcomes the Harnessing the Potential report and will examine its findings and recommendations. The successful mainstreaming of EMERGE shows that the lessons learned from this EQUAL project will continue to be applied.
While there are certainly a number of issues which are specific to the immigrant population with regard to entrepreneurship, many of the findings and recommendations identified in Harnessing the Potential were addressed in both the Enterprise Strategy Group report of 2004 and the report of the Small Business Forum published in May 2006, both of which are in the process of being implemented.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
The Small Business Forum report placed particular importance on the development of the spirit and culture of entrepreneurship and recommended that the Government should adopt a national entrepreneurship policy focused on optimising the number of start-up businesses. It also recommended that there should be a particular focus on the stimulation of latent entrepreneurial potential, particularly among women and the immigrant community. My Department is committed to bringing forward a statement on national entrepreneurship policy in 2008.
One way of embedding an entrepreneurship culture in Ireland and meeting the recommendations of the Small Business Forum is through the creation of a national entrepreneurship week to mobilise the key stakeholders in the area and to draw public attention to the topic. My Department has secured funding to cover such a week as part of the 2008 Estimates process. The Department would see a national entrepreneurship week as targeting all latent entrepreneurial potential within the population, including immigrants. An additional separate national campaign for immigrants would needlessly duplicate such a process. The recommendation of the Enterprise Strategy Group supported the One Step Up programme, which is now FÁS's key programme for improving the skills of those in employment. This year the One Step Up programme has a budget of €46 million and is expected to deliver training to approximately 32,000 people. The programme is open to people of all ethnic origins.
It is clear that much has been happening to implement the recommendations identified in the EMERGE report and I anticipate that more will be done in the near future.
I acknowledge the Minister's comment about innovation. The report that has been published is interesting. However, there is now a slowdown in the economy. That is acknowledged on all sides of the House. If we are to break out of that cycle it is important that we support small entrepreneurial businesses as much as possible. One of the elements of this is the knowledge that is being brought into this country by our migrant community, who are bringing in new ideas and products. However, there are two fundamental barriers to this. The first is the issue of business permission. What steps is the Minister taking, in conjunction with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to get rid of the excessively burdensome regulations that currently exist and ensure that decisions on business permission are based on the proposed business idea rather than a bureaucratic process, as is currently the case?
What specific proposals is the Minister introducing to deal with the issue of access to finance? For many migrant entrepreneurs, access to the traditional forms of finance, such as banking institutions, is not open to them.
The economy is going through a transition phase and there has been significant correction, particularly in the construction sector. In some ways this opens up opportunities for the entrepreneurial sector. We are hoping that mobile capital and funding will be redirected towards start-up companies. The good news is that the high-potential start-up companies supported by Enterprise Ireland — from last year, the previous year and this year, which we will launch next week — offer exciting evidence of the number of new companies emerging on the scene, particularly in value-added activities such as software, food products, life sciences and internationally traded services.
The business permission scheme, which is operated by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, is currently under review by the Department and by the Minister. I would point out, however, that there are other ways in which people can get permission to start businesses. Under the business permission scheme the migrant is required to satisfy certain criteria, including investment of up to €300,000, and the original rationale for this was to encourage employment creation. However, this is not the only way in which a foreign national can operate a business in Ireland. The right to operate a business depends on immigration status. For example, EU nationals are automatically entitled to engage in business as one of their rights of free movement. In addition, non-EEA nationals who have Stamp 4 permission also hold that right. I will check this again, but my figures suggest that up to 60,000 people are in this category, which is a substantial number. However, I will have this checked as it seems high to me.
For the review of the business permission scheme we will certainly consider any ideas from the Deputy and we will work with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, the Deputy should bear in mind that we accept the point that there are significant entrepreneurial opportunities within the migrant population in Ireland. Many of the schemes based on the report of the Small Business Forum, Skillnets and training issues are now being mainstreamed to provide supports.
I ask the Minister to go back to the issue of finances, which is fundamental to getting many of these operations off the ground. Enterprise Ireland is not the way to sort out this.
The bottom line is that it will be the only game in town in terms of the actual operation of the schemes.
There are many Irish companies that cannot avail of it——
They can.
——never mind migrant companies.
The only game in town now is Question No. 2.
I will answer very quickly. We have reformed the business expansion seed capital schemes and increased the limits dramatically. This affects all companies, whether clients of Enterprise Ireland or not. A company does not have to be a client to avail of these schemes.
Employment Rights.
Willie Penrose
Question:2 Deputy Willie Penrose asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the main provisions of the primary legislation aimed at enhanced compliance and enforcement of employment rights generally, including legislation to regulate the operation of employment agencies and a statutory code of practice for employment agencies, promised in the Government amendment to a motion passed on 20 February 2008; when it is expected that this legislation will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8349/08]
The Employment Law Compliance Bill currently being drafted by the Parliamentary Counsel is designed to secure better compliance with employment law in accordance with the provisions of part 2, sections 11 to 16 of Towards 2016, the ten-year framework social partnership agreement. Drafting of the Bill is proceeding for Government consideration as soon as possible.
The main provisions of the Bill include the establishment of a new statutory office of Director of the National Employment Rights Authority, dedicated to employment rights compliance, with a tripartite advisory board. The Bill will also include provisions to secure better compliance with the Employment Permits Acts 2003 and 2006 providing for the involvement, for the first time, in the enforcement of provisions of those Acts by the director of the National Employment Rights Authority.
The Bill will also strengthen inspection and enforcement powers of labour inspectors and make other necessary provisions to secure compliance with employment law as well as fostering increased co-operation at workplace level so as to safeguard employment rights generally.
In addition, the Bill does the following: specifies the statutory employment records to be kept by employers for all employees and the high penalties for failure to do so or for other breaches of employment law, fosters increased co-operation at workplace level so as to safeguard employment rights, supports current monitoring and inspection activity for compliance with the registered employment agreement in the electrical contracting sector, provides for exchanges of information between statutory enforcement authorities so as to facilitate joint investigations of employment suspected of contravening the law and strengthens the powers of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to initiate investigations and publish the outcome in cases of public interest.
In addition, proposals for an employment agency regulation Bill to update and strengthen the regulation of the employment agency sector have now been finalised. I intend to submit a memorandum to the Government as soon as possible seeking approval for the drafting of the Bill by the Parliamentary Counsel to the Government. Publication of the proposed employment agency regulation Bill continues to be a priority for Government. The Bill will provide for the licensing of employment agencies, which will maximise the agreed objectives in Towards 2016 while at the same time remaining consistent with EC treaty provisions as interpreted by European Court of Justice rulings in the case of posted and agency workers.
In addition, adherence to a statutory code of practice will be a condition for the granting of a licence in Ireland under the Bill. As a statutory code, overseas employment agencies will also be subject to compliance with its terms. The Bill will also provide for the setting up of a monitoring and advisory committee to advise me on the sector and assist me in the drawing up of the code of practice.
Overall, the new Bill will repeal and replace the Employment Agency Act 1971 and regulations made under it which currently regulate the employment agency sector.
The Minister is probably aware that the Labour Party published a protection of employees and agency workers Bill yesterday. We are ready to debate it in the Dáil next week to help the Minister. In this context, did the genie get out of the bottle recently when Davy published its report? It lauded the findings of the OECD based on 2003 data that Ireland is one of the top ten least protected labour markets. It trumpets our poor position in international league tables for worker protection. It was particularly satisfied that, in 2003, we were joint best for allowing temporary worker agencies to operate. All of this is viewed as important by Davy because labour market flexibility is an important factor in boosting productivity growth and increasing the incentive for companies to raise employment. Labour market flexibility is important to maintain high employment, up to a point, but constantly undermining the terms and conditions of employees is not the route to productivity growth. It encourages firms to use temporary agency workers and positively discourages the training set out in the Minister's skills programme.
Tomorrow, under the Slovenian Presidency, the employment, social policy, health and consumer affairs meeting will take place. Will Ireland lift its objection to the EU directive on temporary agency workers at that meeting? If not, is it because of the underlying agenda, which permeated the report by Davy? Why are we failing to ensure equality of treatment of workers that is applicable in every other country? If the Slovenian Presidency pushes the agency directive to a vote, will the opposition of Ireland and Britain and any other government unwilling to accept a reasonable compromise be overcome by a qualified majority vote? Does the Minister agree that this is essential if we are to stop the race to the bottom in pay and working conditions in Ireland and elsewhere and create a level playing field for workers and employers?
There is no good reason the Government should hold back, adopting a veto position, by continuing opposition. The Government is putting social partnership at risk and undermining worker support for the European project. Would this measure not protect responsible employment agencies from unfair competition from operators who are not so responsible? I appeal to the Minister to lift the veto and get the legislation in place. If he does not, the Labour Party is prepared to help. We have the Bill ready. Let us protect people from exploitation. We owe them that.
There has been appalling spinning of this story from the beginning. We agreed with the social partners to introduce legislation pertaining to agency workers. As soon as the ink was dry on the agreement the trade union movement stated that it was not enough and sought more. It is entitled to do so. We had the legislative template ready to introduce an agency Bill after the last agreement. However, the terms of the agreement were not sufficient for the trade union movement, which sought additional terms of pay parity. Now, it has moved onto equality across all issues.
Ireland has no veto powers in the European Council of Ministers because it is not strong enough. However, Ireland is capable of contributing to a solution that does not put Ireland at a competitive disadvantage and that allows Ireland similar rights to other countries in terms of collective agreements, exemptions and opt-outs. A memorandum will be sent to the Government and we are available to discuss with the trade unions and employers the basis of an agreed resolution.
I welcome Deputy Penrose's belated acceptance of the importance of labour market flexibility, something that was absent from the debate two weeks ago during Private Members' business. I hope Deputy Penrose cites the rest of the Davy report, which gives a positive picture of the future of the Irish economy and refers to the successful policies we have pursued in employment and education. We are anxious for balance, allowing us to protect the rights of workers, which we are keen to do, while maintaining the impetus for job creation. We will not tolerate exploitation.
Denis Naughten
Question:3 Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment the steps he is taking to address the exploitation of migrant workers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8562/08]
I assume the Deputy is referring to breaches of employment law or of employment-related legislation. I reiterate, as indicated during the recent Private Members' motion of last week on agency workers, that this Government is deeply committed to decent standards of employment. Significant and substantial measures to underpin our employment standards apply to all workers, including migrant workers.
A large body of employment rights legislation, covering areas as diverse as the application of the national minimum wage, terms of employment, organisation of working time, payment of wages, protection of fixed-term and part-time workers, maternity leave, etc., is now in place. The transposition into Irish law of the EU posting of workers directive, by virtue of enactment of section 20 of the Part-Time Work Act 2001, provides that employee protection applies to migrant workers in Ireland who have entered into a contract of employment that provides for those employed in the State or who work in the State under a contract of employment. This means that irrespective of nationality or place of residence, migrant workers have the same rights under employment rights legislation as Irish employees.
Our legislative framework is backed up with effective and strong new supports where all workers, including migrant workers, can vindicate their rights through the dispute resolution machinery of the State. Under the Towards 2016 partnership agreement, the Government has committed to, and delivered on, key additions to enforcement capacity including a major upgrading of resources with the establishment of the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, and substantial investment in additional resources in the labour inspectorate. NERA is participating in an active information awareness campaign on employment rights and specifically in the case of migrant workers is publishing material to promote employment rights in up to 11 languages. Additionally, ten of the 90 officers that form the labour inspectorate will have specialist foreign language skills.
Combating exploitation or abuse of employment rights is not just a matter for Government and its agencies, it demands the engagement of wider civil society. When setting up NERA the Government, through the Oireachtas, made a very significant additional investment in the areas of promoting compliance with employment law and in ensuring that, in the event of non-compliance, there are effective mechanisms for redress and, where appropriate, prosecution. I would urge anyone who has specific complaints to contact NERA immediately to enable these to be investigated. Alternatively, and where appropriate, employees should refer their complaints directly to the dispute resolution agencies for redress.
I thank the Minister for listing the provisions in law. I do not dispute the reply, except in respect of agency workers. We have plenty of legislation in the country, the difficulty is the lack of enforcement of the law. Has the Minister seen the NERA documentation in 11 languages? It is not very detailed in respect of employment law. It is fundamentally important that it is reviewed. When will the foreign language inspectors be employed, deployed and carrying out inspections? It was promised that 90 labour inspectors would be in place by 31 December 2007. When will that number be employed and carrying out investigations? Everybody wants to ensure this country does not have a migrant under class. What discussions, if any, have taken place between the Minister and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deal with an ongoing anomaly in the system, where people who go to the Labour Court or other employment tribunals find that their work or residency permits expire during the delay in processing their applications? They are then left illegally resident in the country.
There has been much debate on this issue in recent times. If people are aware of cases, I urge them to refer them to the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA. That is the key advice I offer Deputies and the public. We have significantly enhanced the number of labour inspectors in the past 12 months. We have also regionalised the inspectorate significantly. Approximately 76 inspectors are already working.
When will the 90 be in place?
Four or five have left. There are some in training and the ten language inspectors are in place. We are well advanced. The only issue we had to resolve was through the industrial relations process and social partnership. We worked with the unions in the public sector to devise methods of recruitment and so forth. There has been a dramatic transformation not only in the number of labour inspectors but in the legal capacity the authority has and the financial advice available to it. There is a strong management tier in the inspectorate. We have merged several units from the old system into the new authority. We are already beginning to see the impact of NERA, particularly in terms of its construction campaign, which is the subject of a later question, the number of site visits and the number of companies into which it inquired. I am positive about the prospects for the impact it will have.
We are working with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform towards a one-stop-shop or single office approach to synergise the visa and work permit issues. We take a reasonable and flexible approach to people who fall between stools in such cases, particularly people who might have been subject to abuse by unscrupulous employers. We try to regularise their employment status where it is clear that has occurred.
The Minister says matters have improved. If that is the case, why were there 1,500 fewer inspections carried out in 2007 than in the previous year? Will the Minister give a date for when the 90 inspectors will work on the ground and not in training?
The vast majority are on the ground already.
The Minister cannot give a date.
The Deputy should relax. They are out working.
The date of 31 December 2007 was the target and the Minister has missed that.
The Deputy is welcome to consult the public service union.
The Minister does not have a date to have the 90 staff in place.
We have worked extremely hard and the problem is not on our side.
The Minister is contradicting the commitment he made.
Denis Naughten
Question:4 Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment when cross-departmental joint labour investigation teams will be operational; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8565/08]
The social partnership agreement, Towards 2016, provides for greater co-ordination between organisations concerned with employment rights compliance, with a view to realising the considerable potential for synergy that exists in this area. In particular, the agreement provides that authorised officers of the new National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, will join officers of the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Revenue Commissioners to work together in joint investigation units. The role of these units is to address areas where evidence suggests that non-compliance with employment rights legislation exists.
The Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007, which came into operation on 30 March 2007, provides for the disclosure of relevant employment data between the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and NERA. This legislation effectively enables NERA to join the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Office of the Revenue Commissioners to work together in joint investigation units. Since the enactment of the Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2007, exchange of information activity has already taken place between the bodies in several specific cases. In addition, joint investigation unit activity, involving the three bodies, has also taken place, particularly in the context of the NERA construction industry campaign in May to July 2007. A working group has been established comprising the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners and NERA to further enhance procedures for improved cross-departmental co-operation, the sharing of information by the respective Departments and offices and to plan future joint investigation activities and strategies.
Earlier this month the Minister's officials said the discussions were ongoing between the different Departments and agencies. When will we see some of these investigation units carrying out investigations? In an earlier reply the Minister spoke about the legal capacity of NERA. Why is there no provision for NERA imposing fines on rogue employers?
The Deputy is wrong on that point. I have seen the press release issued by the Deputy's colleague in that regard. The press release referred to the national minimum wage legislation, in which there is no provision for fines. The NERA legislation is not yet in place. We are preparing legislation to bring to Government. That legislation will provide, as has already been agreed in the context of Towards 2016 with the social partners, for significant additional fines for breaches of any aspect of employment legislation. There will be significant increases as set down in the Towards 2016 document. I can refer the Deputy to the relevant sections on social partnership which we will reflect fully in the legislation.
It is not in the legislation.
It is in the proposed legislation. There is no issue. I respectfully suggest the Deputy should be properly briefed. Otherwise, he was deliberately mis-spinning in the press release that was issued yesterday.
The Minister gave a commitment that the labour inspectors would be in place on 31 December and that has gone out the window.
It has not.
It has. The Minister cannot give a date.
The NERA legislation is not yet published so how the Deputy can ask a question as to why something is not in a Bill that is not published is beyond me.
The agency is in place.
In any event, I assure the House that there will be significant penalties in the new national employment rights legislation. There are now 76 inspectors employed in the National Employment Rights Authority. A further five are due to commence on 3 March and the appointment of inspectors to fill the four remaining posts is progressing. Five more vacancies arose with people retiring and so forth. We had to go through certain processes with the trade union movement on these issues. We did that faithfully and in the context of social partnership. It represents substantial and significant progress in building a strong national body to enforce employment rights. Over the past two years we have worked strongly on this issue and have delivered significantly with regard to social partnership.
With regard to the specific issue in the Deputy's question, significant progress has been made by the three Departments. A campaign was conducted last year for the construction sector and a total of 173 employers were identified. Contact by the joint investigation units was made with approximately 19 and there were eight joint site investigations. The units are up and running. Obviously, more work must be done on procedural issues and so forth between the three Departments. However, the combination of the three Departments will act as a significant deterrent to people who endeavour to abuse employees. The prospect of the Revenue Commissioners, labour inspectors and Department of Social and Family Affairs officials arriving at their door will be a spur to better behaviour by the more unscrupulous employers.
The plan is to set up joint investigation units to engage in enforcement. When will they be established? Either the Minister is misleading me in the House or his official misled me a fortnight ago. In his earlier reply the Minister said the legal capacity had been enhanced through the establishment of NERA. The Minister is criticising me for not having done my research, yet he is contradicting himself from one question to the next. What provision is available to NERA at the moment to impose fines on employers? When will NERA have the power to impose fines, as we discussed earlier?
One joint campaign has already been initiated by the three agencies, which I detailed earlier, concerning the construction sector. In terms of NERA, it is a non-statutory body. The legislation underpinning NERA is currently being drafted and a memorandum will go the Government shortly on it. I have already outlined that to the Deputy. Under the existing body of legislation to which I referred in an earlier answer, there are penalty provisions pertaining to any breaches of that legislation. However, we will take the opportunity, in the context of the National Employment Rights Agency Bill, to increase fines and penalties.
Employment Action Plan.
Damien English
Question:5 Deputy Damien English asked the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment his plans to encourage people in receipt of unemployment assistance to take up work in the community, social or voluntary sector here; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8563/08]
The key policy intervention concerning people on the live register at present is the national employment action plan preventive strategy which was first introduced in 1998 and rolled out nationwide in subsequent years. This process involves a more systematic engagement with the unemployed. On reaching a three month threshold on the live register, individuals aged between 18 and 64 years are referred by the Department of Social and Family Affairs to FÁS, where they are called in for interview and assessment.
Following the initial intervention clients would be expected to progress to training or employment. If appropriate, FÁS employment services and the local employment services will support all unemployed people with such progression, including those over 55 years of age. Clients may be placed on one of a range of employment and training programmes including, in particular, community employment, CE. Community employment provides eligible unemployed people and other disadvantaged persons with an opportunity to engage in useful work within their communities on a temporary basis.
It also helps long-term unemployed people to re-enter the active workforce by breaking their experience of unemployment through a return to a work routine and offering the opportunity to enhance and develop their technical and personal skills.
In addition my colleague, the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, has responsibility for supporting the community and voluntary sector through the community services programme. The objective of this programme is to support local community activity to address disadvantage, while also providing local employment opportunities.
Unemployed persons in receipt of unemployment assistance and unemployment benefit and other disadvantaged groups are eligible to participate in this programme once they meet the criteria which can be found on the website of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, www.pobail.ie.
I assure the Deputy that I will continue to do everything to provide a range of proactive job-related services, supports and programmes to assist individuals to enter or re-enter the active labour market.
I thank the Minister for his reply. I have a number of supplementary questions. I accept we have made many improvements in this area. There have been many changes and strategies in recent years but there are some areas where I would like to see further changes and where I encourage the Minister to work more with his colleagues in the Departments of Health and Children and Social and Family Affairs, to improve matters.
Let us face the fact that there are a number of people on the live register who could come off it and who could be engaged in training or work. We must try to tackle and focus on them, one way or the other. Community employment schemes are an excellent idea. They benefit the community, the groups for which participants work, as well as the participants themselves, whose self-confidence and self-belief is improved immeasurably. However, the three to six year cut-off point is ridiculous. Initially people participate in the scheme for three years, but with some pushing and shoving, that can be increased to six years. There is a certain category of people who, when they leave community employment schemes, have no real plans and no real hope of picking up another job. They are falling between two stools. There is a certain group of people who will not be lucky enough to get another job. I ask the Minister to consider extensions to the schemes for age groups or categories of people. That must be examined, even if it is not politically correct to mention it. All Deputies have all met people of a certain category who get stuck when their community employment scheme ends. They end up back on the live register or on a social welfare allowance for the rest of their days. That must be tackled.
We must also examine the issue of people turning down jobs because they are afraid they will lose their entitlements and be worse off. Such people exist. People of all abilities are turning down jobs because, although some social welfare payments are gradually reduced, that is not the case with medical cards, other health benefits and rent allowance. In that context, it is very often not worth people's while to take up a job. That must be changed. We must do all we can to ensure that people can accept jobs. This is not the sole responsibility of the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. He must work with his colleagues on that area.
There is a category of people who are receiving the job-seekers allowance who have no intention of ever working. We all know such people exist. It is not good enough and it is not fair that a certain percentage of people who are physically able to work do not want to work. We must increase our efforts to get those people into training or work so they can give something back to their communities. Their contribution would be gratefully received by many community groups and in many areas like estate or town maintenance. It is wrong that people who are well able to work are getting through the system and spending most of their time at home, rather than working. It is not good enough. I am not referring to people who cannot work, but to people who will not work. A percentage of people are well able to work and should be out there, contributing to society, which would benefit the taxpayer and the individuals concerned. It is not right for people to spend too much time on their own, not contributing in any way to society. These are the main areas in which I would like to see changes.
That was a very lengthy question but I welcome some of the suggestions made by the Deputy. I accept the broader point that we must do more in terms of labour activation measures. I am not so sure there are huge numbers of people out there deciding not to work.
There is, let us face facts. There is a certain percentage.
I do not accept that totally. We have reduced the threshold in the preventative plan from six months to three. I met people in my clinic recently who had been working for 20 or 30 years, who said they thought they were entitled to their PRSI. They were only two weeks unemployed and felt they were being put through the wringer in terms of lining up another job. I cannot say what the Deputy has just said with the same conviction. My experience is that the situation has tightened very significantly in recent times and the unemployment payment is only made available to those who can prove they are genuinely seeking work.
I accept that in every part of life we will have people who will try to evade schemes and break the rules. However, the fact the threshold has been reduced to three months makes it more difficult for such people to do so. The Deputy is right to a certain extent, although I do not have exact percentages to hand——
We are almost out of time.
I beg the tolerance of the Chair, particularly as I mentioned him in glowing terms in the Tallaght Institute of Technology approximately two hours ago——
Yes, I heard about that Minister. Go ahead.
We will go into overtime now that Tallaght is playing.
We have not had the Cork versus Meath match yet.
When the interviews take place in FÁS and with the Department of Social and Family Affairs, a very significant percentage of interviewees do not come back for a second interview and go back to employment. That has been a feature of our plan and a very effective part of it.
On the other hand, in the broad area of disability and unemployment, we must do better than we have done in the last decade. In the time of the Celtic tiger, between 4% to 4.5% of our people were unemployed. The challenge for us is to determine what we need to do to get those who have been almost permanently unemployed into the labour market. There is an interdepartmental group, including the assistant secretaries of my Department and the Department of Social and Family Affairs, working on that issue. It is dealing with issues of poverty traps, secondary benefits, medical cards and so forth and aims to incentivise people to return to employment. I accept that further work is needed in this area.
On the issue of the community employment programmes, we cannot have community employment forever. There are approximately 22,000 places on community employment schemes. We must recognise that a considerable amount of community employment schemes are now social support services or community support services. The scheme has, over time, turned out to be a very good avenue for people with disabilities to obtain reasonable work experience which they were unable to obtain in the mainstream labour market. I am examining the community employment issue in that context.
I thank the Minister for his reply. I accept in principle what he is trying to do. However, with regard to community employment schemes, the Minister said they cannot go on forever. I dispute that. Why can we not have such schemes forever? The work the participants are doing is very valuable. I know we cannot have the actual term "community employment" forever, but people on those schemes are doing useful work. Somebody has to do that work and why not allow them to continue through that scheme?
The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, has developed the role of the social employment through the community services programme, which facilitates exactly what the Deputy has articulated.
The fundamental mandate of the community employment programme originally was as a labour activation measure. It was meant to be short term, to get people back into work. It was never meant to be a community or social support programme.
I accept that.
I accept that we must re-examine the matter. When we did so three years ago, we extended the age limit to 55 years and sent social economy affairs to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs with €30 million of taxpayers' money, such is my generous nature. We recognised that social economy matters belonged there, not under a labour market measure. In terms of labour market activation, there is potential within my Department and FÁS for the community employment scheme's functions in respect of a significant cohort of the population to be re-examined and redesigned.
We will move on to Ceisteanna Eile. I thank the Minister for his mention of Tallaght.
Not at all. The Acting Chairman's absence was noted. It is an extraordinary event when he is not present.
Absolutely.
Do not tell the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan.
We should mention him also.