Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2008: Second Stage (Resumed).

Atairgeadh an cheist: "Go léifear an Bille an Dara hUair anois."

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Kieran O’Donnell

It is vital that the people of Ireland vote for the treaty and the reasons to support it are straightforward. The population of the EU is now almost half a billion, which is unwieldy, and this, effectively, is an administrative treaty that seeks to streamline the EU's administrative procedures.

A question in this debate is why should people vote "Yes"? I think the reasons for voting in favour are strong because the EU has been very good for Ireland. Since joining the then EEC in 1973 we have received €60 billion and have given back €20 billion, a sign we have become prosperous and have done well out of Europe. We have received €41 billion through the Common Agricultural Policy and are due to receive another €12 billion up to 2013. We have received €17 billion in Structural and Cohesion Funds. One of the reasons we have done so well, in terms of the Celtic tiger, is the funding from Europe which has allowed us put the infrastructure in place, but more needs to be done. In this context, the Government will have to push forward with the national development plan as quickly as possible.

The EU has contributed to peace in Europe. In the first half of the last century there were two world wars that resulted in the deaths of 40 million people. There have been wars in other areas of Europe since but there has been peace in mainland Europe, which is to be welcomed.

The EU has been a major benefit to Ireland in a number of ways. The Single Market has allowed us to trade throughout Europe and the area I represent, Limerick, has a large multinational base. Multinationals came to Ireland because the country gave them access to European markets through the Single Market. Following on from this, we joined the euro currency and now have common interests throughout Europe. If one sought to pinpoint external factors that contributed significantly to the Celtic tiger, one would be the exchange rate mechanism that reduced anxieties related to exchange rates. Another is the fact that, with the European Central Bank in place, interest rates were extremely low. One of the adverse consequences of this is the current bust that has followed the housing boom. Low interest rates allowed people to borrow a lot of money and the Government should have introduced other factors to prevent a bubble forming.

Some anxieties on the "No" side are emerging in a number of ways. The issue of taxation has arisen recently and the European Commission President, Mr. José Manuel Barroso, came to Ireland and spoke about key aspects of the taxation issue. The corporation tax rate in Ireland of 12.5% was introduced by the rainbow coalition that governed until 1997 and was implemented by the following Administration. This was one of the most important factors in creating the Celtic tiger. The large multinationals I have spoken to want the corporation tax rate of 12.5% retained and there is nothing in this treaty that will cause it to change. We have a veto that protects our taxation rates and the rate of 12.5% is secure. There has been talk of enhanced co-operation that could see some states, of their own accord, form alliances in this regard but this requires nine of the 27 states and it has not happened to date.

It is important that Ireland shows that it supports the European model because it has benefited us. I am adamant that we should give the Lisbon treaty a resounding "Yes" vote and that our tax system should remain intact. There has been much talk of tax harmonisation but for this to occur it must be shown that it will not in any way interfere with commercial realities for individual states. This matter should be put aside and people should be aware that our corporation tax rate of 12.5% is secure because the Lisbon treaty will have no impact on it.

The treaty has no impact on Ireland's neutrality, something I believe in. Under our Constitution anything that affects our neutrality must be put to the people in a referendum. The fact that we are voting on the Lisbon treaty is a healthy measure of our democracy. I am confident the Irish people support Europe because we have done very well from being part of the EU. People have fears but if they are addressed and if they ask whether Europe been good for us in the past the answer will be "Yes".

The other issue that has been thrown up in this debate concerns the WTO negotiations. Ireland has a veto in the negotiations. The Lisbon treaty has no impact on the talks. Commissioner Peter Mandelson comes from England where the farming sector is not as vital a factor to its economy as it is in Ireland. There will always be trade-offs in world trade negotiations but the agriculture sector appears to be of no relevance to Commissioner Mandelson.

The Government must get across that while we want free trade and the opening of markets in Brazil, India and China, it cannot be done to the detriment of Irish farming. Farming is the lifeblood of rural Ireland, a pillar of our society and economy which must be protected. I congratulate Deputy Michael Creed on the great work he has done in this area.

The loss of a commissioner has arisen in the debate. Ireland will have a commissioner for every ten of 15 years. However, this applies to all member states and not just Ireland. The proposal of rotating commissioners will not come into play until 2014.

The current commissioner system with 27 positions is unwieldy. A great benefit of the Lisbon treaty is that it will give extra powers to the European Parliament in legislative decision making in the EU. The European Parliament, as provided for in the treaty, must when bringing forward any directive make the Dáil aware eight weeks beforehand to allow it to be debated. This is very democratic and will allow debate to take place. As my party's deputy spokesperson for finance, I am aware that Irish legislation is increasingly governed by EU directives. Many mistakes and oversights have been made when directives were dealt with at EU level. I am glad that at national parliament level we will have an input in decision making. Control mechanisms are in place to ensure the EU Commission gives valid explanations as to why it is bringing forward directives, a welcome development. Another welcome development is the placing of the Charter of Fundamental Rights on a legislative basis.

It is vital for Ireland's interests that we vote for the Lisbon treaty. Ireland has benefitted significantly from EU membership and will continue to do so. The danger is that people will vote against the Lisbon treaty for reasons that have nothing to do with its contents. It is up to Members to explain to people what the treaty means and to deal with their concerns over our neutrality, taxation, accountability and the world trade talks. This will mean that when the people vote on the Lisbon treaty, they will be aware they are voting for streamlined EU institutions that will allow progress in a sustainable, strong manner and have a peaceful and prosperous Europe of which Ireland can continue to be a member.

Deputy Michael Creed

One of my earliest political memories is the black and white grainy television footage of the former President, Patrick Hillery, and the former Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, signing the accession treaty for our membership to the then EEC in 1972. It has been an overwhelmingly positive experience for Ireland. Deputy O'Donnell listed the benefits in pounds, shilling and pence from the Structural Fund for the farming community and other areas. I challenge anyone to deny that EU membership has been a successful experience for Ireland in economic, social and political terms.

The challenge for Members in selling the Lisbon treaty is to raise the level of debate and expectation from the filthy lucre and to sell it at a higher level of idealism and political aspiration. There is a danger in some quarters that we may oversell the treaty, claiming it is a panacea for all our ills, which in many respects it is not. While the European movement has been successful for Ireland, this is an administrative treaty that takes into account a Union that has grown incrementally from six member states to nine, 12, 15 and 27, comprising a population of 500 million people. If one was running the mid-Cork board of the GAA and the number of clubs increased in a similar way, one would have to change the standing orders to ensure efficient decision making. I accept this might be an overly simplistic view of what is contained in the treaty but it illustrates the point.

If we were writing it ourselves as a single member state for 27 member states, we would ensure we did not lose our commissioner. However, this has been hammered out in great detail, involving compromises between all member states. In all negotiations and deals, we learn to live with compromise. On balance, it is a good deal and we should sell it as such to the people.

What has been visibly absent from the debate to date is the Government selling it. There is a danger that the treaty vote will be lost. We have the forces that have been consistent since day one in opposing it. They have also been consistently wrong. It behoves those of us committed to the European movement to get up off our backsides and sell it. This side of the House has organised a nationwide series of meetings on the treaty. There is a visible absence, however, from the debate of the Government parties which runs a substantial risk of the treaty being lost.

It is regrettable a link between the treaty and the world trade talks has been created in the mind of the farming community. It was welcomed that the IFA, the main farming organisation, decided to support the treaty in January. However, since then it has rowed back and watered down this commitment. Undoubtedly, Mr. Mandelson is damaging the prospects of passing the Lisbon treaty on 12 June. That is a failure of the Government and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food at EU Council level to rein in and issue appropriate instructions to Commissioner Mandelson. I ask individual farmers to ask themselves what they will achieve if they vote "no" and the treaty goes down. Where will we stand on the morning of 13 June as we pick up the pieces and attempt to continue negotiations on CAP reform? Would our negotiating position be strengthened or weakened? It is patently obvious that the WTO negotiations have nothing to do with the Lisbon treaty and our negotiating position among Ministers and Heads of State would be significantly weakened during the mid-term "health check" of the Common Agricultural Policy. Farmers would do well to take stock of these issues.

The usual red herrings have been used in the debate, namely, corporation tax, neutrality and the loss of identity, the supposed merging of Ireland into a blancmange of European identities. The contrary is more true now than it has ever been. In Europe, we stride more confidently as Irish people than we did in the early 1970s when we joined the EEC. This is due to the prosperity we have attained with Europe’s assistance.

To ensure that Europe is in a position to make efficient and effective decisions, it must face the challenge of emerging eastern countries and the political instability therein that has only recently ended. Europe must be resolute and efficient in its decision making processes, the subject matter of the treaty. I would encourage everyone to vote "Yes".

By virtue of inactivity and political failure on the Government benches to handle the WTO talks better, there is a substantial danger that the Lisbon treaty and those talks will be deliberately or otherwise linked in the minds of members of the farming community. It is not too late to rescue the talks and the treaty, but it will require resolute and immediate Government action. I regret that there are no signs of that, but I hope it occurs. Time is not on our side, as there are only six weeks until polling day. At this late stage, I encourage the Government to commence its campaign to sell the Lisbon treaty.

Deputy Ciarán Cuffe

My party has held a strong and robust debate on the European treaty, which has divided us in some respects. Most are in favour of the treaty, but there is a substantial minority with significant concerns regarding various aspects of the document. I am in favour of the treaty. While it is not a perfect document, we are better served by critically engaging with the EU project from within by ratifying the treaty rather than by rejecting it and remaining outside the project.

In a sense, the choice is similar to that made by the Green Party on whether to participate in Government. We did not believe that being in Government with a party that does not share all of our opinions would be perfect, but the choice has worked out well and we are slowly altering the course of the ship of state. If we ratify the treaty, we will be slowly manoeuvring the European ship of state in the right direction.

There have been significant changes in the EU in recent years. In terms of democracy, the treaty will take us in the right direction. It will remove a substantial amount of power from the Commission and give it to the European Parliament. While this will not occur in exactly the way we would have liked, it is a start in addressing a democratic deficit that has been part of the European project to date.

Whenever I go to Brussels, it is to engage in the issues I hold dear. Irrespective of whether one likes it, the decisions on many issues — energy, farming or the environment — are being made in Brussels. When I find myself in the Berlaymont or one of the offices close to the heart of Brussels engaging with the European project, I feel good about it due to the strong support for the type of issues espoused by the Green Party. There is a considerable push in the right direction in terms of proper planning, the sustainable use of resources, renewable energy and so on.

There are many other issues. For example, the EURATOM Treaty is, for many of us, the elephant in the corner of the European project. A large nuclear industry is consuming more European taxpayers' money than renewable energy. If we wish to alter this situation, we must do so from within. The Lisbon treaty will make no material changes to the EURATOM Treaty, which promotes nuclear energy, but the Irish, German, Austrian, Swedish and Hungarian Governments have added a declaration calling for the revision of the EURATOM Treaty. The best place to participate in this revision is at the forefront of the discussion on the EU. While previous treaties refer to the concept of sustainable development, that concept is not clear. The reform treaty will give it a higher profile and a clearer definition. Sustainable development is listed in the treaty as one of the fundamental objectives of the Union in its relations with the wider world. This is a new provision and a significant improvement.

Many around the Chamber have asked what is being done in respect of climate change. Ireland is engaging in a considerable amount of domestic discussion and policy formation, but the EU is at the forefront of the global movement to tackle climate change head on. A significant amount of research is being done and the emissions trading system, which is being pioneered in Europe, is showing the world how carbon trading can fit into world economies. This is a crucial factor in the fight against climate change. While I have been critical of trading our way out of the climate change issue, it is a useful economic instrument to achieve global buy-in as long as we do not use carbon trading as a way to avoid action at home. It makes sense to the Americans and the Chinese. In a short period, there will be significant buy-in. The next US President will engage more deeply with the subject than the incumbent. While one may argue that this would not be difficult, it is movement in the right direction.

The treaty incorporates the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which sets out a catalogue of civil, social and political rights and freedoms. The legally binding nature of its provisions is a positive aspect of the treaty. When particular well-funded individuals argue strongly against the treaty and refer to these provisions, I am more confident about arguing in its favour.

The treaty brings the EU closer to its citizens through the greater involvement of national parliaments and the directly elected European Parliament in the EU's decision making process, thereby bolstering the EU's democratic legitimacy. It is a project in which I believe. I am proud when I see a European flag above a building. I am proud to be a Dubliner, an Irishman and a European. The European treaty is worth supporting.

However, I urge people not to vote for or against the treaty on national issues but to consider the wider project and what it will achieve for the many hundreds of millions of citizens living within the European Union. I believe that, on balance, this is a positive treaty that deserves our support.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. When Ireland joined the European Union in 1973, it was a much poorer State than is the case at present. I was born in 1973 and when one considers the progress that has been made since then in business, employment, education, infrastructure or whatever, many of the benefits have flowed from Ireland's membership of the European Union. It is sad that some who are involved in politics and some political parties are willing to vote against the Lisbon treaty, which can only be of benefit to Ireland. The number of jobs, companies and dynamic young people that have come to Ireland through the openness arising from the European Union, in the past ten years in particular, have been unbelievable.

While Ireland is a small country, it is highly respected in the European context. Other countries have double or triple our population but our small island is well respected in Europe. Fine Gael is a highly-respected member of the largest European political grouping, the European People's Party, and Ireland is fortunate to have the leader of the Fine Gael Party serve as its vice president. Fine Gael has a proud tradition of supporting Ireland's involvement in European affairs. As a party, it always has put the country and its position in Europe first and this is the reason it seeks a "Yes" vote on this occasion. Fine Gael will not use the opportunity to oppose the Government and asks people to vote "Yes". They should vote on the issue before them, rather than voting "No" because they consider it to be correct to vote against the Government. People who wish to criticise the Government should wait until the local and European elections.

In recent months, Fine Gael has been highly active in promoting the Lisbon treaty. Last week, I was disappointed to hear that the Leader of the Seanad, Senator Donie Cassidy, criticised the Fine Gael Party, and other parties, and asserted that his was the only party that was doing anything for the promotion of the Lisbon treaty. Had Senator Cassidy been reading his local newspapers or the national newspapers or following Dáil debates, he would have been made aware of the degree to which the Fine Gael party is active in this respect.

Fine Gael recently held a treaty meeting in Wexford that attracted a huge attendance of non-political people who came simply to acquire information on the treaty. It was highly interesting to hear such people's viewpoints on the treaty as they were there to get information on it rather than to criticise it. They attended to establish whether to vote "Yes" or "No". Speaking to the wider audience after that public meeting, I noted their belief in the positive aspects of the treaty had been reaffirmed. The misleading "No" campaign raises issues such as neutrality, taxation and abortion. This is unbelievable and I fail to understand from where they get the arguments.

The real purpose of this treaty is to provide for the enlargement of the EU, as well as to improve the workings and efficiency of the Union. Hopefully, following the passage of this treaty, the proper structures will be put in place to make a far better European Union in which to be involved and Ireland will benefit tremendously in that regard. People's positive attitudes towards Europe also are very welcome. It is brilliant to observe younger voters becoming involved in the treaty and wondering what is happening.

While Sinn Féin, Libertas and others assert that Ireland will lose its EU Commissioner, they should study the job prospectus of a Commissioner. Ireland is fortunate to have a fine man like Charlie McCreevy serve as its EU Commissioner. However, the "No" campaign should be aware that Charlie McCreevy does not work in Europe for the betterment of Ireland. He works for the betterment of the projects in Europe with which he is involved and he takes the wider Europe into consideration. It is not his job to wear an Irish hat and fight on our behalf. His job is to work within the European Union with different countries for the Union's betterment. Irrespective of our size and whether we have a Commissioner, we will still enjoy the same rights as at present and will not lose such rights. It is strange to assert that the loss of a Commissioner would cause the entire European Union to collapse or that Ireland would collapse because it was not going to have a Commissioner or that it would lose a degree of influence.

As for taxation, the "No" vote claims that were the treaty to be passed, odd taxation systems would be introduced. However, this will not happen. I refer to the lack of education displayed by the "No" campaign when neutrality is being discussed. The triple lock ensures our neutrality and the "No" campaign should study and understand this point.

I hope the Lisbon treaty will be passed and that in the coming years, the European Union will become far stronger and far better, both for itself and for Ireland. When one recalls the benefits that have accrued to Ireland in recent years, I ask the Irish people to look into their hearts, consider the purpose of the treaty and educate themselves on it. Were they to do so, they undoubtedly would vote "Yes".

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Brendan Smith)

It is a pleasure to make the concluding contribution to the Second Stage debate of this important Bill. When the Minister for Foreign Affairs introduced the Bill on 2 April, he correctly reminded the House that the reform treaty is important for Ireland and for Europe. The Government considers the treaty to be a logical step for the EU in an increasingly globalised world. Ratification of the treaty will provide for a more effective Union that will be more democratic and accountable, that will be better prepared to address the global challenges we all face and that will allow Ireland to consolidate the gains made since it became a member 35 years ago.

The referendum on 12 June should not be treated lightly. The decision then reached will not simply pertain to the wording of a European treaty but also will concern our country's future. The result to which we will wake up on the next day will tell us much about ourselves. It also will tell us much about what we want to say to others about ourselves. We will be sending a message to our partners in Europe and to the international political and investment communities.

The choice we will make will be between confidently embracing the future or stalling at a vital time for Ireland and the Union. No Irish interest would be served by a failure to ratify this treaty, which represents the outcome of compromise and consensus among 27 member states. It fully respects Ireland's key interests, including our political and economic interests and our interests in the areas of sovereignty and social policy.

Some would say that we have benefited more than any other country from EU membership, which has been a force for progress, jobs, peace and wider national development. The European Union has given us a secure and comfortable place in which to articulate our views, realise our hopes and contribute to the wider world. It has given us the confidence to shake off many of the preoccupations with which history burdened us. We have been participants in a process that has helped unite our Continent as never before. Former enemies are now committed partners and firm friends. The east-west divide is now a thing of the past and, closer to home, the EU and its member states have played their part in helping to end the conflict in Northern Ireland.

None of this happened in one fell swoop. The EU has been built slowly, brick by brick. It was founded on the rules and laws written by many hands. Some find fault with this, although many outside the EU observe us with a mixture of envy and awe. Given the combined interests and histories of 27 countries, it is inevitable that our treaties are complex and even inelegant in places. However, what matters most are the outcomes. I do not believe that any sensible person can look at the economic, political and social balance sheet and still say the EU has not been overwhelmingly positive for Ireland and Europe.

The reform treaty has been negotiated and agreed in the spirit of all previous European treaties, each of which allowed Ireland and Europe to progress. The reform treaty is no different in this respect and that is why the Government signed it and is now encouraging the people to vote "yes" in the upcoming referendum. We appreciate the support of other parties which are also campaigning for the treaty's ratification.

We have heard much comment outside this House about how the reform treaty represents a charter for the few large countries in the EU to bully the smaller ones. Such a view ignores the behaviour of large countries throughout the long history of the EU and suggests a lack of confidence in how small countries like Ireland can find our way in the world. A quick glance at the map makes clear that Europe is a small Continent full of small countries, many of which are smaller than Ireland. Those countries are not expressing disquiet about the future because they concur with the Government's view that small countries will be a crucial part of the future European Union.

Ratifying the referendum will confirm our faith in an international order based on solidarity, international co-operation and equality between member states. It will confirm for the international political and economic community that we continue to keep our feet firmly in Europe and our focus on economic prosperity, political stability and social progress. That is why the Government believes the reform treaty should be ratified.

The treaty will boost Ireland's capacity to address the domestic and international challenges we face. It will also allow us to continue to exploit the considerable opportunities that come with being members of the EU. It will enable us to maximise our capacity to act in our own interests. Ireland's sovereignty is not abstract but is a function of our capacity to act for our people and to enhance the quality of their lives. Ireland's sovereignty is to be measured in terms of our ability to defend prosperity, safeguard the environment and protect the jobs and livelihoods which the Irish people have worked so hard to create. These cannot be achieved in isolation because they depend on Ireland's capacity to nurture and protect our essential interests. Although our capacity to act is minimal if we are alone, it is enhanced and multiplied through the unique partnership of today's European Union. Membership has given us the Single Market, practical co-operation between member states and greater clout on the world stage. The reform treaty further increases Ireland's capacity to act by making the EU function better. This will benefit Ireland, which has always gained from an effective Europe. It will give a greater role to national parliaments and the European Parliament, make the EU more responsive to citizens' concerns, give Europe and European values more influence in the world and empower the EU to combat climate change. The treaty also allows us to make decisions on the policies which are of vital national interest to us, such as taxation, neutrality and the right to life of the unborn and other sensitive social policies.

Compared with previous EU treaties, the reform treaty is modest. While it makes necessary adjustments to the existing treaties, it does not propose radical change. Previous treaties have brought about the establishment of the Single Market and the introduction of the euro but the present treaty does nothing of that magnitude.

Opponents of the treaty are of course making outlandish and misleading claims in increasingly shrill terms. Certain opponents who in the recent past clamoured for increases in corporation tax now present themselves as champions and defenders of the corporate tax system. The treaty makes no change to the unanimity rule. No tax change can be imposed on Ireland or any other member state and it is dishonest to suggest otherwise. The parties supporting this treaty have designed our corporate tax policy and have a track record on this subject. They need no lessons from anti-EU opportunists. IBEC, the Chambers of Commerce and the men and women who have a track record in creating jobs in Ireland all recognise this. The business and wider communities will not be hood-winked by the nonsense being peddled by those who have always opposed our position in Europe or by groups which have appeared overnight.

Some opponents of the treaty are against the Common Agricultural Policy and the benefits it has brought to Irish farmers and rural communities. Others speak in apocalyptic terms about Ireland losing all influence in the EU and of sell-outs and takeovers. They falsely suggest the treaty will hand over policy on foreign direct investment to the European Commission. We will continue to pursue high quality investment projects and nothing in the treaty will cut across this. They claim the treaty will put an end to future referendums on EU treaties, which is also untrue. Holding a referendum will continue to be a matter for us to decide. No Irish Government would sign a treaty that affects our capacity to control taxation policy, foreign direct investment or national constitutional procedures. Many others around the EU table would equally resist such moves.

Ireland's future progress is tightly bound to our involvement in the EU. The way to ensure maximum progress is through full engagement in the Union. Through the EU we can continue to achieve our key economic and social goals, pursue our wider interests and maintain our particular identity on international issues. Without the EU, we would not have made the gains we have registered in recent years. We have higher levels of prosperity and employment than we could ever have achieved without membership. The transformation of our agricultural sector could not have happened without generous EU support. Foreign direct investment would not have reached the massive levels of today without guaranteed access to the Single Market and many infrastructural improvements would not have come about without the generous provision of Structural Funds.

It is fair to say that past behaviour is a good indicator of future performance. For this reason, Ireland has nothing to fear and everything to gain by supporting the treaty. The benefits of active and positive EU involvement have far outweighed the costs and this will continue to be the case. The Union should not be seen as a zero sum game because it is not. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Why should we vote "Yes"? To make the European Union more efficient, effective, democratic, fit for purpose and capable of meeting the challenges that lie ahead, such as globalisation, energy security, climate change, mass migration and crime. It is my pleasure to have the opportunity to draw to a close Second Stage of this Bill.

Cuireadh an cheist.

Question put.

Deputies

Votáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputies who are claiming a division please rise?

Deputies Ferris, Gregory, Ó Caoláin and Ó Snodaigh rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

As fewer than ten Members have risen I declare the question carried. In accordance with Standing Order 70 the names of the Deputies dissenting will be recorded in the Journal of the Proceedings of the Dáil.

Faisnéiseadh go rabhthas tar éis glacadh leis an gceist.

Question declared carried.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 29 April 2008.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Apr 2008