Vol. 655 No. 1
79 Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Education and Science when schools will be able to draw down the €252 million investment promised for information and communications technology; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20085/08]
Since the introduction of the programme of investment in information and communications technology in 1998, almost €200 million has been invested in information and communications technology in schools. Some €80 million was provided to schools in equipment grants under the Schools ICT 2000 and Blueprint for the Future of ICT schemes. A further €23 million has been provided since 2004 to develop the networking capacity of schools and facilitate the full exploitation by schools of the potential offered by broadband connectivity and the efficient use by schools of computer software. The current national development plan provides for investment of €252 million in information and communications technology in schools between 2007 and 2013.
The Deputy will be aware that my predecessor appointed a strategy group to advise on the priorities for expenditure on information and communications technology in schools. I intend to publish the group's report shortly. The report will cover areas of required investment over the lifetime of the national development plan. At its core will be the embedding of information and communications technology in the teaching and learning culture of schools. This will require continuing investment in teacher professional development to build further on the impressive teacher participation levels which have been evident to date. It will require the continuing maintenance of a national broadband network for schools, the upgrading and renewal of hardware and the provision of software and digital content. It will be important to focus on the provision of technical support to schools and the development of appropriate models in a cost effective manner.
Decisions on the timing and amount of expenditure in this area this year must be made in the overall context of the current budgetary situation. I am required to work within the budget set for the Department of Education and Science. My officials and I are reviewing the overall financial position with regard to spending trends and emerging pressures. Following this review, I anticipate that I will be in a position to make decisions on specific areas of expenditure.
I congratulate Deputy Batt O'Keeffe on his appointment as Minister for Education and Science. I look forward to working with him over the course of the next while. I wish him well in his new position.
In his response to Question No. 79, which relates to the development of information and communications technology in our schools, the Minister seemed to suggest that the €252 million that is allegedly earmarked for this sector over the course of the national development plan may be at risk. Can the Minister unequivocally tell the House whether the €252 million which was dedicated for the development of information and communications technology in schools over the course of the national development plan is absolutely guaranteed?
I thought I had made it plain that I am discussing the exact financial position with my officials. It has not been easy to examine all the funding issues in the Department of Education and Science. I am not in a position today to say "Yes, something will happen". I have provided for expenditure in the schools sector of approximately €20 million, on the current side. I will continue to fund the National Centre for Technology in Education, which provides more than 10,000 continuing professional development training places to teachers each year. I am in discussions with my colleague, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, on the issue of broadband services in schools.
Do I understand correctly from the Minister that the answer to my question is that the €252 million funding package is not guaranteed over the course of the next five to six years? If so, this news will come as a bombshell to schools throughout the country. The Minister's predecessor made 17 separate announcements pertaining to the €252 million allocation.
That is right.
The Minister has now honestly told the Dáil that there is no absolute, firm and gilt-edged guarantee that this money will be provided for schools. Is he aware that Ireland is ranked 20th of 30 OECD countries in respect of expenditure in this area? Does he know that Ireland is ranked 19th of the 27 EU member states in respect of the roll-out of broadband? We have one computer for every ten children in this country. Our information and communications technology funding record is abysmal. The Minister, unlike his predecessor, has been honest with the Dáil. He has admitted that there is no commitment to provide a €252 million spending package. This news will come as a bombshell to schools. Can the Minister tell the Dáil whether he has read the report of the expert group? I understand that the group has said that an allocation of €252 million would be insufficient to meet the technological development needs of this country's schools. Can the Minister confirm whether the expert group has told him that?
I do not want the Deputy to misinterpret what I am saying. I am in discussions with my officials about the overall package of funding within the Department. I am not saying that I do not intend to put funding in place for information and communications technology. It is in the national development plan. It is obvious that it is my aspiration——
It is no more than an aspiration.
——to meet the demands of that part of the national development plan.
It is not true.
I certainly do not intend to give Deputy Hayes an absolute commitment, in the Dáil, that I have the funding to roll out the whole of this.
The national development plan is a joke.
The Deputy has had his say. I ask him to let me finish. I have been in this job for almost two weeks. I am in discussions with my officials on the funding that is available. I have pointed out that €20 million has been put in place for current spending. I am looking at the capital programme. Under no circumstances can Deputy Hayes indicate to anybody at this stage that funding will not be in place for an information and communications technology capital programme this year.
Go raibh maith agat.
I would like to make a final point.
I am afraid we have to move on. We have gone well over time on this question.
80 Deputy Ruairí Quinn asked the Minister for Education and Science if discussions have taken place with the Department of Finance on the use of public money on the hiring and renting of prefabricated classrooms for primary schools when the same income flow over 30 years would cover the cost of capital borrowing from either commercial financial institutions or would be cheaper if borrowed at Exchequer borrowing rates for the construction of a permanent building; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19767/08]
Officials in the Department of Education and Science discuss the overall allocation of current and capital expenditure with their counterparts in the Department of Finance in the context of the preparation of the annual Estimates. General discussions are normally held on the amount of funding allocated to the subhead from which payment for the rental of temporary accommodation for schools is made. However, no specific discussions have taken place about the borrowing of money by the Exchequer for the construction of permanent buildings in the manner referred to by the Deputy. Following concerns raised by the Committee of Public Accounts and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Department of Education and Science recently examined its expenditure on the rental of temporary accommodation with a view to identifying the point at which the purchase of such accommodation provides better value for money. As a result of the review, the Department of Education and Science now has a policy of purchasing temporary accommodation when the need for it is likely to last more than three years. This change in policy will minimise the amount of money spent on the rental of accommodation.
The permanent accommodation scheme was introduced in 2003 to reduce the need for prefabricated classrooms. It was designed to ensure that value for money is a feature of the provision of permanent accommodation in place of prefabricated accommodation when it is decided that an accommodation need is likely to exist for a considerable length of time. Since the introduction of the scheme, more than €100 million has been allocated to schools. This expenditure has resulted in the provision of an additional 625 classrooms and 275 resource rooms in schools throughout the country. Such facilities have been provided in addition to the classrooms provided under the major capital projects managed by the Department of Education and Science. If the permanent accommodation scheme had not been in place, a significant proportion of the classrooms and resource rooms would have had to be provided using temporary accommodation such as prefabricated classrooms.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
It will continue to be necessary for prefabricated accommodation to be provided, as competing priorities mean it will not always be possible to put a permanent accommodation solution in place in a short timeframe. The Department of Education and Science will continue to provide funding for prefabricated accommodation. Decisions on whether to rent or purchase will depend on the length of time such accommodation is likely to be required. In all cases, the approach will be to ensure best value for money.
I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, on his well-earned promotion.
I thank Deputy Quinn.
I look forward to having a much more constructive and positive relationship with the Minister than I had with his predecessor.
The Minister can convey that message to her.
I invite the Minister to feel free to harness the abuse and resources of Opposition spokespersons when he is battling with officials in Merrion Street to fill his coffers.
I will find it very helpful.
I am sure the Minister will.
I thank the Minister for his reply. He has not answered in full the question I asked, but he gave the reply his Department prepared for him. Will he not agree that for mature primary schools with all eight classes that have a proven need for accommodation — not start-up schools where there is a lead-in time as children move up classes starting with junior infants — the present policy of hiring prefabs is nonsense? It is a bit like having money on deposit in the post office and going to a moneylender to get cash. In one school, the details of which were submitted with the question, the annual cost of the rental, which is dead money, would finance a loan of €5 million over 30 years, which would provide for the construction of a solid building. I invite the Minister, if he is not yet at that stage, to enter into a serious dialogue with the Department of Finance on this issue. Considering the current financing policy, none of the officials in the Department of Education and Science would pass a junior or leaving certificate business organisation or economics examination if they were to sit it on the basis of their behaviour.
Obviously I do not accept that because I find there is a wealth of talent in the Department, which I am delighted to have available to me. I will write to the Deputy to give him a detailed outline of the number of purchased prefabs and the number that are rented. We have done a survey and are compiling the results. In deference to the Deputy, all that information will be sent to him.
I thank the Minister.
I take the Deputy's point about doing our business better. I have been reviewing this area since my appointment. We have made significant improvements in getting much more permanent accommodation over three years. We have been reviewing the cost-effectiveness of what we are doing. The capital programme has been improved dramatically over the years. I am considering other ways of doing business, as the Deputy suggests. I am engaging outside experts to review the way we do business in terms of renting and purchasing prefab accommodation. They will also consider how we might progress our demands as they arise in terms of the planning we should put in place and whether we should have a proper systematic layout throughout the school system.
I welcome the Minister's constructive response and I would be happy to engage with him. If he is to engage in a programme of capital expenditure during a downturn in the construction industry, which could be very positive and beneficial generally, would he consider using the Planning and Development (Strategic Infrastructure) Act to accelerate the planning? Many applications are stuck in the planning process at present. There is nothing more strategically important than the education system for our knowledge economy.
The Deputy will be aware that I had charge of developing areas in my role as Minister of State with responsibility for housing. There has been considerable interaction between the Departments of Education and Science and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and planning sections in local authorities. We have made great strides in co-ordination and joined-up thinking and action. As Minister for Education and Science, I will continue that process.
81 Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Education and Science his policy in respect of reducing class size; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20086/08]
The programme for Government sets out the overarching policy position on the provision of additional teachers and on reductions in class size over the life of the Government. The programme contains a commitment to increase the number of primary teachers by at least 4,000 and on that basis to make further progress in reducing class sizes.
Budget 2008 provided my Department with €4.6 billion, or €380 million extra, for teacher pay and pensions. That was a very substantial level of additional investment in terms of the economic environment on which the budget was based. That allocation provides for more than 2,000 extra primary teachers, more than the number in schools when the Government took office last summer. It covers the additional teachers who went into schools last September for the previously announced reduction to a 27:1 based staffing schedule with additional teachers this school year and in the coming school year to meet increasing enrolments and provide for special needs and for the language requirements of newcomer children. This means that in terms of the overall commitment to provide at least 4,000 additional teachers, the Government, in its first two years in office, will be well ahead of target.
All programme for Government commitments to improve public services, including those relating to class size, are contingent on the economic and budgetary environment and the need for prudent expenditure and fiscal management. Even since the presentation of budget 2008 last December, there have been significant alterations in the external and domestic environment. In that context any reasonable observer would regard the fact that the Government has already taken measures that will see the allocation of more than 2,000 additional teachers to primary schools as a considerable investment, all things considered.
Similarly, the commitment to improving class size in second level schools can only be considered in the context of the overall economic and budgetary position that might prevail in the coming years and the competing priorities for available resources.
It is widely accepted that the issue of class size was the Stalingrad issue that resulted in the Minister's predecessor being moved from the Department of Education and Science. Any reasonable observer, to use the Minister's words, might come to the conclusion that the Government promised in 2002 that no child of nine years of age or younger would be in a class of 20 or more by 2007. How many children of nine or under are now in a class of 20 or more? Is it still the commitment of the Government to have a ratio of no more than 20:1 for classes with children of nine or younger?
I do not have that information today, but I can obtain it for the Deputy. It was proposed to recruit 4,000 extra teachers over the period of the plan. Two years into that five-year plan we now have in excess of 2,000 additional teachers. Any fair-minded observer can see that the commitment to appoint additional teachers is being honoured. The Deputy is aware of the pressures on the Exchequer. However, after two years the Government has delivered additional teachers beyond what it was required to do.
Let us be absolutely clear about this matter. The Government gave that commitment in 2002. It is not a new commitment by the Minister. The Government gave a firm commitment to reduce the staffing schedule from 27:1 to 24:1 in the first three years of the Government, which took office last year. It welshed on that commitment in last year's budget. The reason there are 2,000 more teachers is that a growing population of young people are going into schools and it is inevitable that a greater number of teachers is required. However, I want an absolute assurance on the Minister's commitments. From the Minister's reply it seems he is falling into the same trap as his predecessor in that this commitment is now forgotten about, ignored and put to one side. The Minister has had two weeks to find his feet on this issue. Will he deliver next year on a promise that he should have delivered this year?
The Deputy seems to forget that all commitments in the plan were predicated on the basis of the economic well-being and resources that were available. There is a commitment to have 4,000 teachers and it is my intention that we will honour that. There is a commitment to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio. The former Minister indicated as part of the budget for 2008 that this was being set aside for 2008. Obviously we will review this issue in light of the funding available in the Department.
Last week, I published a list of 40 schools around the country that will lose a teacher from 1 September. Many of those schools have lost one or two pupils from their enrolment last September, even though they have increased their enrolment since then. As a gesture of goodwill on the Minister's part, will he consider safeguarding the 42 teachers in those 40 schools that will lose a teacher in September and, inevitably, will push up the average number of children in each of the classes in those schools?
The Deputy is aware that an arrangement is in place and he is asking me to break that arrangement. He is saying that we should allocate extra teachers but that when there is a fall-off in pupil numbers I should break the rules. I have to be fair. The number of teachers that will be affected is approximately 50 and, overall, we are employing an extra 500 teachers. What is important is the quality of teaching. We are lucky in that the quality of persons wishing to become involved in the education system is of the highest standard. The most important issue that emerges from surveys of parents is the quality of teaching.
82 Deputy Ruairí Quinn asked the Minister for Education and Science the estimates of his Department and other State agencies on the scale of adult illiteracy; the number of adults over the age of 18 who are deemed to be functionally illiterate in the English language; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19768/08]
In 1995, Ireland participated in an international literacy survey of adults conducted by the OECD, which found that approximately 25% of Irish adults between 16 and 64 years old were at the lowest literacy level — level one. Those are the most recent statistics available. However, Ireland has agreed to participate in the initial development work and feasibility study for a new survey to be carried out by the OECD entitled the programme for international assessment of adult competencies, PIAAC. This survey of adult competencies, including literacy and numeracy, is due to be completed in 2012 to 2013. Participation in the main study will be decided on the basis of the results of the development work and feasibility study.
On foot of the 1995 survey findings, the Government identified improving adult literacy as the top priority in adult education. That has been reflected in the funding for adult literacy, which has increased incrementally from €1 million in 1997 to €30 million in 2007. In the same period, the number of participants has increased from 5,000 to approximately 44,000. A total of 3,000 additional places were provided in 2007 in line with commitments in the Towards 2016 partnership agreement and the programme for Government. Since 2000, more than a quarter of a million learners have availed of the adult literacy services.
Adult literacy will also be an important aspect of the work of the interdepartmental committee that I chair and which is preparing an implementation plan for the national skills strategy. Adult literacy services are funded by my Department through annual grants to the vocational education committees, VECs, which deliver the services locally. Community groups and community development projects may also apply to their local VEC for funding to provide adult literacy tuition. A number of different initiatives have also been developed to tackle adult literacy. Those include the intensive tuition in adult basic education programme, ITABE, which provides up to six hours of tuition per week to learners instead of the normal two hours;——
On a point of order. I asked a simple question about how many people are illiterate, not the percentage. We already have the information the Minister of State is reading into the record. He is wasting my time.
A specified time is allocated to me.
I am afraid it is 30 seconds over that time now. The balance of the Minister of State's reply will be in the Official Report.
I was trying to be helpful. I should have realised that Deputy Quinn has all that information.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
Included also are a family literacy pilot scheme to address poor literacy from an intergenerational family perspective; and a workplace literacy programme — the return to learning scheme — in all local authority areas for outdoor workers. In addition, participants on the community employment scheme can avail of intensive literacy tuition provided by the VECs. There are other special funding projects including literacy for deaf people, those with dyslexia and for native Irish speakers in Gaeltacht areas.
Adult literacy and numeracy are also an integral component for learners in both the part-time suite and full-time suite of further education programmes. In partnership with the National Adult Literacy Agency, my Department has provided funding for several successful television series to address the needs of adults with literacy difficulties.
On a general point of order, I wish to put down a marker to both Ministers. Can we stop the filibustering replies from the Department of Education and Science?
Hear, hear.
The Department has a standard word processor that churns out details in reply to every other question.
Will the Deputy ask a question?
Deputy Quinn did it himself.
I say to Deputy Kennedy that I asked a specific question that was not answered. The question was not about the percentage of adults between 16 and 64 but the number. Does the Minister of State have that information?
It is 500,000 people. I am trying to be helpful in giving the Deputy information.
No, the Minister of State is not.
I do not believe the reply is a filibuster in any way. It is an opportunity for me to say exactly what is being done in terms of adult literacy.
Can I interrupt the Minister of State?
I will call the Deputy again. In general, the rule is that the Minister is allocated two minutes to give a reply. What he says in his two minutes is a matter for himself. The Deputy will then have adequate time to pose supplementary questions.
At that time the figure was 500,000 but I suggest that the situation has improved since then because of a number of policies and programmes that are in place. The participation in the OECD programme for the international assessment of adult competencies will give us more up to date information in due course.
Whoever drafted that reply for the Minister of State was being economical with the truth. As we approach the 12 June and the Lisbon referendum campaign, in effect, a quarter of the electorate is functionally illiterate. Is that a fair interpretation of what the Minister of State said? Two million people are entitled to vote, give or take those aged between 16 and 18. The Minister of State said a quarter of the adult population is functionally illiterate. Is that a fair interpretation of the verbiage the Minister of State has given me by way of reply?
No, because the report was published in 1997 and the situation has dramatically improved since then because of policies pursued at primary, secondary and further education levels. The situation would have dramatically improved since then because of the policies we put in place. We have set out new targets in a number of policy documents.
Does the Minister of State have up to date statistics of his own?
No, the statistics we have are the ones published in 1997 based on the OECD report. That is why it is important that we participate in the new OECD survey to give us more up to date information. All the evidence points to the fact that the situation has dramatically improved since then.
It is a reflection on the Department of Education and Science that the Minister of State is dealing with statistics from 1997, which is 11 years out of date. Despite all the money the Department is throwing at every problem it can see, it simply does not know the scale of the problem. Without knowing the scale of a problem, one cannot begin to address it.
The Department has close links with the VECs, which are dealing with the situation on the ground. We have a number of new policies in place that are set out in various policy documents, including the Towards 2016 social partnership agreement and the national programme for social inclusion. The new targets have been agreed by the social partners and we are striving to implement them to improve the situation. I believe the situation has improved dramatically since the first survey was published in 1997.
How does the Minister of State know?
It is obvious.
83 Deputy Brian Hayes asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on the most recent pastoral letter, Vision 08, from the Irish Catholic bishops conference; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20087/08]
The pastoral letter from the Irish Catholic Bishops' Conference, Vision 08, that was published last week represents a valuable and welcome contribution to wider dialogue on the overall governance challenge that faces us in seeking to meet future school needs.
The rapid pace of social and demographic change in Ireland is reflected in a radically altered and more diverse society from which our school communities are drawn. Schools under the patronage of the Catholic church have been to the fore in welcoming and accommodating the new diversity. That commitment to community has been at the core of the Catholic school system for many generations and has been a source of immense strength both to the education system itself and to our wider social fabric. The continuing commitment that is expressed in the pastoral letter to opening Catholic schools to children of all denominations and backgrounds is welcome. It is entirely appropriate also that Catholic schools should seek to reflect their own distinctive vision and philosophy.
As the pastoral letter points out, the Catholic church in Ireland played a significant role in the success of the introduction of free post-primary education in 1967. More recently, the church has had to meet the challenge of securing the future of the ethos of its second level schools at a time when the role of members of the orders in day to day management is greatly diminished as a result of falling numbers of religious.
At primary school level we have seen a growing diversity of patronage choice in recent years in response to evolving parental demand, with a significant growth of inter-denominational and multi-denominational schools. More recently, the Government has agreed to pilot a new model of patronage that directly involves the State, through the vocational education committee sector. This community national school model will welcome children of diverse faith and non-faith backgrounds. Within this changing landscape, the vast majority of primary schools are, and will continue to be, Catholic in ethos. As the largest patron group in the education system, the contribution of the church to debate and dialogue on how the system should evolve to respond to changing societal circumstances is essential.
The remainder of the reply will be in the Official Report.
These issues have featured strongly in the ongoing structured dialogue between the Government and the churches, faith communities and non-confessional organisations in Ireland.
Please, Minister.
It is also my intention to hold a national conference on 27 June at which I hope Deputy Quinn will be present.
The Minister, no more than anybody else, will please obey the Chair.
My apologies.
There are two minutes allocated and once they expire, there is a very limited timeframe for priority questions.
I apologise but I wanted to mention the national conference, and we all realise the importance of that.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House.
It is also my intention to host a one day national conference on 27 June, involving each of the patron bodies and wider interests, to consider the governance challenge for meeting future primary education needs. The pastoral letter published by the bishops provides a very positive input to our collective consideration of these issues and I commend them for the leadership role that they have taken in advancing their vision of the future.
Perhaps that should have been in the first paragraph of the Minister's reply.
I would not like to be up against the Leas-Cheann Comhairle in the classroom.
The Minister is right. It was a welcome and positive contribution from the Catholic hierarchy, effectively putting forward a White Paper in terms of the way forward. Will the Minister not agree that the Government and his Department have failed to put forward a similar vision in terms of new patronage models? The last paragraph of his reply refers to a one day conference but will he not agree this issue is too big for a one day conference and that what we need is a national forum on education where all of the issues concerning management, control, patronage and governance could be examined in a much more public way than is currently the case? I ask the Minister to reconsider the proposal for a one day conference because it is not acceptable that a one day conference that would examine these fundamental questions would be organised by the Department.
Absolutely.
I am aware the previous Minister had suggested it but I ask Deputy O'Keeffe to reconsider this because I will not be part of a one day event when the issues involved are so serious.
The Government has been active and progressive in examining the patronage and governance in schools issue. The one day conference is an important venture in that it will bring all the stakeholders together to allow all the views and issues pertinent to this particular issue to be brought into the public domain and discussed. It does not mean, for instance, that the one day conference is the end of the matter. I would see it as being the fulcrum from which further debate can take place and the further accommodation of the diverse views in terms of patronage. I hope the Deputy will find at all times that this will be a listening Department and one that will learn from the suggestions being made because it is in the interests of all of us, Government and Opposition, to learn from what will accrue from that one day conference.
In his initial reply the Minister referred to the pilot scheme for west Dublin where two new schools will be under the patronage of County Dublin Vocational Education Committee, as the Minister is aware. I welcome that but am I correct in saying the education (patronage) Bill has yet to be published? There is no chance it will passed by this House and the other House if it has not been published by the summer. These two new schools — it was to be three — will be open in west Dublin on 1 September, with teachers and students in place, under the control and patronage of County Dublin VEC. How are those schools legally based when the legislation effectively introducing the new pilot model has not gone through these Houses?
I understand the schools will come under the Vocational Education Act 1930.
But there is no provision for it.
I cannot answer the Deputy. I do not have that information with me. It is a question that is worthy of investigation, which I will do and revert directly to the Deputy.
