Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jul 2008

Vol. 658 No. 1

Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy David Stanton

I spoke earlier about two issues: under age drinking and the abuse of alcohol by people over 18 years of age. The alcohol advisory group has proposed many recommendations. It asks for an overall government policy, which I support. Perhaps during the summer the Government and all Departments might produce such a policy before the next legislation is presented.

I encourage the imposition of a levy on bottles and cans to encourage recycling. This would be useful. I agree with outlawing the sale of alcohol at cut prices and as a loss leader. The association between alcohol and sport must be broken, especially in the advertising sector. I call on sports bodies to take a responsible view on the matter. The culture begins when people under the age of 18 years are brought into pavilions, bars and clubs for the cup to be filled. We need to step back from this. In my area some clubs have gone to restaurants rather than bars, which I applaud. I encourage more clubs and associations to do likewise.

We must examine the matter of non-alcoholic beers and try to encourage a pricing structure which would make them more attractive. The same applies to soft drinks which are very expensive too.

We need to see a greater presence of gardaí on the streets to combat public disorder. Staggered closing times for pubs must be explored and encouraged. The alcohol advisory group has done much work in this regard.

I am concerned that many young people have no place in which to socialise. They go to shopping centres but are hunted away. We need youth cafés, youth centres and a proper youth service. I taught for many years in a second level school and know that schools can only do so much. There may be programmes in schools, but they only go so far. We need to have professional youth services available.

Deputy John Perry

I broadly welcome the objectives of the Bill in seeking to tackle the growing problem of excessive alcohol consumption. Excessive alcohol consumption and binge drinking by young people place a huge strain on public health resources and exacerbate the problems of anti-social behaviour and criminal activity. The Bill does not tackle the cultural problem that Ireland has with alcohol consumption. If we were serious about curbing excessive consumption, we would be discussing the banning of all relevant advertising, especially advertisements associated with sports such as Gaelic games, rugby, horse racing and many others which facilitate alcohol advertisements. This advertising plays a critical role in the glamorisation of alcohol. If we were serious about curbing excessive consumption, we would also deal decisively with the below cost selling of alcohol, especially the campaigns to promote the sale of spirits. We would consider a prohibition of the use of alcohol purchases as a means of increasing bonus or loyalty points, a significant issue when one examines the growth of under-cost selling by supermarkets. I have a vested interest in this issue as I work in the retail trade. I know the difficulties in the promotion by all retail chains of the sale of alcohol.

If we were serious about curbing excessive consumption, we would discuss the need for health warnings on all alcohol containers. Deputy Stanton referred to the Office of Tobacco Control. There should be a corresponding body to deal with the problem of excessive alcohol consumption. Measures restricting the sale of cigarettes and health warnings on packets have proved very effective. If we were serious about curbing excessive consumption, we would also consider the feasibility of providing for traceability to the retail outlet of all alcohol containers sold, which would be possible with the available technology. It would be feasible to use bar codes and so on for this purpose.

We are not considering such measures because the Government is not interested in taking decisive action on this important issue. Within the very limited terms of the Bill some of the proposals are disproportionate and unworkable. The Bill does not address the issue of mandatory identification cards for persons under the age of 21 years. The Garda has invested heavily in state-of-the-art forgery proof identification cards, but there has been a very low take up because it is not mandatory to have such a card.

Section 8 of the Bill states mixed trading retailers will have to construct a separate area for the display and sale of alcohol. Small shops that cannot make such a structural alteration will have to place all alcohol behind the counter. Retailers will face serious problems in complying with this provision. Prohibitive costs will be incurred in building a separate area and the erection of new shelving. There will also be problems with planning and health and safety issues. All this assumes a retailer will have sufficient space available for the construction of such an area, but many retailers do not. Such an area will have to be separately manned, increasing staffing levels, which may outweigh the issue of viability for many small independent retailers.

With regard to the sale of wine, 12 bottles of wine represents the sale of one bottle of Powers whiskey, a ratio of 12 to one. This has changed considerably in recent years. Consumption of wine is not common among young people. I operate an off-licence and know only too well that there is no excessive alcohol abuse in the consumption of wine. This happens at a different level with the abuse of spirits, or at least the level of abuse would be considerably smaller in the case of wine consumption. If the proposal allows for an open retail outlet, prohibiting the sale of wine behind a counter is a draconian measure.

The consequence of these provisions will be that family-owned village mixed-trading retail premises, including shops in small towns, will be forced out of business because only the largest retail chains will be able to afford to meet the new requirements for selling alcohol. I am concerned about the Government's policies for rural Ireland. It has launched a process of unpicking the fabric of rural and coastal communities stitch by stitch, post office by post office, house by house, through the serial introduction of regulations and restrictions that impact most heavily on such communities. In this case the regulation will affect family-owned village mixed-trading retail premises which are the backbone of small town and villages. Sadly, the Government appears to be more interested in ending rural heritage and traditions than in striving to keep them alive. I will maintain pressure on it to have our rich rural heritage recognised and protected by legislation, rather than threatened by it.

The Bill completely ignores the Border factor. In Border regions persons under the age of 21 years can freely travel to off-licences and retail outlets in Northern Ireland to purchase alcohol. Such a scenario will completely dilute the objectives of the Bill in such regions. While the overall objectives of the Bill are to be welcomed, we cannot have a situation where persons under the age of 21 years will be prohibited from purchasing alcohol in retail and off-licence premises in this jurisdiction, while they can travel a few short miles across the Border and freely purchase alcohol in similar outlets. They will claim they are only doing what the Tánaiste, Deputy Coughlan, recently advised shoppers to do if they wished to avoid being ripped off by the major retail food chains. The Government advises shoppers that if they wish to avoid being ripped off by major retail or food chains, to shop in the North. That was the Tánaiste's argument on the stacked up costs to retailers, as well as taxation. All she could indicate on local radio was that we should shop in the North. It is an indictment of the inability of this Government to deal with the stacked up costs of doing business in this country. It is a facade of protectionism.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

I thank Deputy Stanton for allowing me time to say a few words on this very interesting proposed legislation. I dislike the move to annihilate the small shopkeepers and put them out of business by imposing an additional burden on already overburdened businessmen and women.

The Minister is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut in this case by imposing section 7 of this Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008. The section is a technical proposal which gives jurisdiction for granting the certificate for a wine retailer's off-licence to the District Court and provides for the giving of advanced notice of applications for such licences.

The Government alcohol advisory group established by the former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in January 2008 must be scraping the bottom of the barrel to find measures to combat shortcomings in the licensed trade. Why was there no debate in this House on its proposals before bringing this Bill to the House?

The group compared the corner shop operator with the giant multinational supermarkets and garages which have the privilege of having a spirit and beer retailer's off-licence, and which can buy in bulk. The convenience or corner shop can only purchase a couple of dozen bottles of red and white wine under an existing wine licence. Why impose extra expense on an unfortunate shopkeeper in making him or her apply to the District Court for a certificate, and then to the Revenue Commissioners for a wine licence? The shopkeeper must then compete with the giant superstores, which can offer up to 50% off the price of such bottles of wine or offer two bottles of wine for the price of one.

If that was not bad enough, the Minister is again using a sledgehammer to drive the last nail into the coffin of the corner shop in the very next section. Section 8 provides for the structural separation of alcohol products from other products in premises engaged in mixed trading, such as convenience stores, small supermarkets and petrol stations. Alcohol is to be displayed and sold in separate areas of the premises, in which access is controlled. In a fair-sized shop that cannot expand any further, there would be no room to put alcohol behind the counter. There may only be a few feet for a checkout desk, so how can the Minister be so cruel as to impose that section? The Minister should allow sanity to prevail and exempt convenience stores and shops under a certain square footage from section 8.

Taxpayers' money is being used as propaganda. For years the Government has spent public moneys trying to curtail the consumption of alcohol and tobacco. The money has been wasted and has not led to a reduction of one iota in the consumption of alcohol and tobacco. The most recent survey has shown an increase in tobacco consumption. Such advertising is propaganda, as it has allowed the Government to remove resistance to even more restrictive legislation on every occasion it wants. What would the Supreme Court rule if a case similar to the McKenna case was put before it? In the McKenna judgment the Supreme Court restricted the Government from using public money to advocate its own case in referendums?

The present advertisement from one State agency states a person can never drink and drive. I know of no law allowing for a zero level of alcohol. Is this not another example of propaganda softening up public opinion before lowering the limit from 80 mg/100ml to 50 mg/100ml?

Before he facilitates the passage of this legislation, I ask the Minister, in his wisdom, not to impose sections 7 and 8 which use a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Martin Mansergh)

I wish to share time with Deputy Noel O'Flynn. I mentioned to my wife a few minutes ago I would be home late because I would be discussing the Intoxicating Liquor Bill. She told me to have fun but I assured her it would be a dry debate.

Deputy David Stanton

Oh dear.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

It will be drier if the Bill is put into practice.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

This is a very important Bill but it should, like some alcoholic drinks, be allowed to mature. We receive representations about social disorder, particularly as it occurs late at night on streets, in estates and in waste areas. There are complaints of intimidation, harassment and sometimes violence. There is a broader issue than just the commercial interests from which we have received representations, important as they are.

In the past, excessive drinking has caused financial difficulties. This may also happen in the future. The report of the Government alcohol advisory group, on which this legislation is based, draws attention to the high level of alcohol consumption in this country. One must worry about the long-term health effects, especially of young people engaging in binge drinking because money is so freely available.

There is a need for other activities to be available, such as sporting activities, entertainment and youth services.

Deputy David Stanton

Hear, hear.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

Public policy is to encourage and build on those.

Deputy David Stanton

No.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

At the same time it must be said that moderate social alcohol consumption enhances the quality of life, whether it is at home or in a pub. In some instances alcohol consumption can even be good for health.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is an enlightened attitude.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

When my brother was born in the Rotunda in 1941, the habit was to give nursing mothers a pint of Guinness.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

A great idea.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

A glass of wine is good too.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

Being able to get alcohol and other things until quite late in the evening is one of the amenities of modern life. We should not adopt an over-puritanical zeal. I am reminded of Sir Toby Belch's retort to Malvolio in "Twelfth Night", "Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?" On the other hand, we should not encourage uncontrolled consumption and misbehaviour.

As I said at the beginning, legislative proposals of this type are capable of fine tuning. The Minister correctly conceded on the issue of early opening for which a persuasive case was made, although only where it now exists.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

He should now concede on sections 7 and 8.

Deputy Martin Mansergh

Most if not all public representatives have received detailed representations from the retail trade, focused on the practicalities of some of the proposed regulations. I am glad the Minister has indicated that detailed discussions and negotiations are taking place on a voluntary code of practice, independently monitored and enforced. If achieved, such a code will be a welcome and constructive measure.

It is correct to have some measures to prevent a proliferation of off-licences in particular places. I am also pleased to note the introduction of the time limits of 10.30 a.m. and 12.30 a.m. on Sundays. I was never sure of the reason these limits were removed. It is important the Garda has the ability to act, in the case of a group which is causing a disturbance, for instance, in an area of waste ground, to confiscate drink where a nuisance is being caused. I would not quarrel with the covert measures to deal with the sale of alcohol to persons under age.

As Minister of State with responsibility for the arts, I am impressed by the number of theatres in Dublin when looked at from a licensing point of view. One would never know from advertisements in the arts pages that there were so many theatres. For this reason, I understand the reason this issue is being addressed.

The cost of soft drinks on licensed premises, while outside the remit of the Bill, was referred to by Deputy Stanton and in the report of the alcohol advisory group. Soft drinks in premises cost at least as much as a pint. I accept, however, that pubs have overheads and other costs and these items may not be as cheap as they would be over the counter in a shop.

The broader issue of social drinking, particularly in the countryside, was also adverted to. Essentially, this is not a problem in the cities where taxis and public transport are available. However, an issue arises in rural areas. While the law must be the same for everyone, just as tax inspectors will focus on profiles for tax evaders rather than going after every ordinary PAYE taxpayer, so the Garda should concentrate on areas where the problem is greatest. Nevertheless, I would not object to the Government or public health agencies advertising the ideal because I believe it is preferable not to drink if one wishes to drive. That is not to say the limit will be lowered to zero or some impractical level but there is never any harm in holding the ideal before people.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

I welcome the Minister's decision to heed his party colleagues and Members from other parties on proposals regarding early morning licences, of which there are three in Cork. The three premises in question, the Welcome Inn, The Sextant and Charlies, are run extremely well and have held early morning licences for many decades. They serve the docklands and other areas and cater for people completing night shifts. I am pleased the Minister has reversed his earlier decision. It is an important step because the early morning houses are well run and open at times of the morning when difficulties do not arise.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

That is no comfort to publicans in Skibbereen and Bantry.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

I also welcome the Minister's decision to heed Members and representatives of industry on the cordoning off of areas for the sale of alcohol in supermarkets. I note that supermarkets have already begun to move all alcohol into one area rather than placing such products at points of sale where they are an attractive option. I hope the supermarkets will take the Minister's advice and agree to introduce a code of practice on below cost selling and address the many other issues in the area of alcohol availability and price which are causing problems for us. It is outrageous, for example, that beer can be purchased more cheaply than water. I hope the supermarkets will be practical and act responsibly in these matters.

Public disorder is a source of serious concern to me and other Members. The number of my constituents with these concerns has increased substantially since I was first elected to Dáil Éireann. The current position is remarkably different from that which pertained when I was first elected to Cork City Council. It was during my time on the council that I first became aware of the need for tougher penalties to curb the rise in binge drinking, public disorder and drinking in public places.

In 1998, I and a number of colleagues pioneered secondary legislation to prohibit alcohol consumption in public streets and places in Cork. I pay tribute to the former long-standing Senator, Denis Cregan, who is recovering from an operation. Members send their best wishes to Mr. Cregan who was one of the members of a sub-committee established to address this issue as a result of a motion I tabled in the council. The idea originated with the late Mr. Jim Sweeney and Mr. Noel Dalton, one of my advisers, who is also deceased. Superintendent Martin Shanahan and Brian Bermingham, the current Lord Mayor of Cork, were also on the committee.

We travelled the streets of Cork until 4 a.m. to observe what unfolded late at night. It was appalling to see so many people drinking and falling all over the place with bottles in their hands. Some of them started fights or got into other kinds of trouble and were arrested. I am pleased we introduced the prohibition which has worked in most places. All the other local authorities followed suit and in fact one or two of them even beat us to the punch because the wheels of bureaucracy in Cork City Council did not move as fast as elsewhere. Nevertheless, we were first to have the idea. I ask that other local authorities introduce similar secondary legislation to complement the primary legislation being introduced.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

What about the seaside resorts?

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

I am pleased my colleagues in Cork County Council introduced similar legislation in certain parts of the county following years of being asked to do so.

Parts of certain towns and cities turn in to no-go areas at certain times of the day and night. Gangs of people binge drinking and loitering in public spaces are a source of intimidation and anxiety to local residents. This is particularly noticeable in the summer months when people are out and about more in the evenings and school children are on their summer holidays. One of the provisions in the Bill will enable the Garda to seize alcohol from a person of any age who is causing nuisance in public. Another provision deals specifically with those aged under 18 years who are in possession of alcohol. New powers under the Bill will enable the Garda to seize the alcohol and impose punitive fines for teenagers unwilling to allow alcohol to be seized.

The extent and seriousness of our binge drinking culture can be put in context when one considers the figures the Minister cited in his address to the House last week. That Irish people consume more alcohol than any of our European neighbours will surprise some people. It is shocking, however, that on average every Irish person aged 15 years and over consumes 20.8 units of alcohol per week. This figure does not include the 20% of adults who do not drink. The Minister also cited the 2007 Eurobarometer survey which found that 34% of Irish drinkers consumed five or more alcoholic drinks in one sitting compared with the EU average of 10%.

The impact of this drink culture can be felt at all levels of society, whether in drink related deaths on our roads, alcohol injuries, which account for almost 30% of all cases in accident and emergency departments, or the corrosive effect alcohol has on family life in every townland in the country.

The vast majority of publicans run orderly licensed premises and do not tolerate binge or heavy drinking. Much of the problem is due to young people and not so young people buying slabs of beer and bringing them to houses. Young people also drink shots and vodka is extremely popular among them. I checked the position in this regard and I am aware of what is happening. Before they go out at night, the people to whom I refer are well set up from the point of view of alcohol. They do not frequent pubs but instead go directly to nightclubs. I am not stating that these individuals are being disorderly but they are drinking alcohol in an uncontrolled environment, namely, in people's houses. People are consuming large amounts of alcohol and their behaviour is giving rise to some of the difficulties being experienced.

Alcohol has crept into every facet of Irish life. We celebrate with champagne, drown our sorrows over a few pints, enjoy a summer's day with a pint of cider in a beer garden and have a hot toddy on cold dark winter nights.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The pain of that.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

Christmas is a nightmare for many people. Some individuals who drink alcohol can ruin the holiday for all.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

So the Deputy does not call in to his local very often.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

The St. Patrick's Day parade is in danger of becoming a shrine to our binge drinking culture. As a society, we must learn to find other ways of socialising and enjoying ourselves. The Mediterranean way of life — enjoying a sociable drink or two, with good food and in good company — has much to recommend it.

The Bill also deals with the huge increase in the availability of alcohol. The number of off-licences has increased by 70% since 2001. During the same period, the number of wine-only off-licences has trebled. New measures will make it tougher to obtain off-licence permits and, for the first time, such measures will apply in respect of wine-only licences.

As stated earlier, convenience stores and supermarkets blatantly advertise cut-price alcohol. Posters advertising cheap alcohol are clearly aimed at both binge drinkers and those who are under age.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

Those who own corner shops do not engage in such behaviour.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

I am not referring to all supermarkets or shops. I am referring to those which advertise alcohol in the way I have outlined.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

The Deputy is cutting out the small trader.

Deputy Noel O’Flynn

I hope that new measures being introduced in the Bill will see an end to this practice. Negotiations involving the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform have led to the introduction of a code of practice. In that context, I hope the sales and marketing techniques used by suppliers and retailers will reflect the wishes of the Oireachtas and the Department sponsoring the Bill.

There is nothing wrong with off-licences closing at 10 p.m. I live in Clonskeagh, which is a couple of miles from the Houses of the Oireachtas. The off-licence there closes at 10 p.m. It might be a condition of the licence that this is the case. When travelling home from the Dáil, I do not see anyone queuing outside to buy alcohol at 9.55 p.m. The 10 p.m. closing time for off-licences will not greatly inconvenience anyone and I welcome its introduction.

On under age drinking, earlier today the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Wallace, launched new guidelines which will restrict the advertisement of alcohol on television. She stated that a process to identify areas in respect of alcohol advertising, promotions and sponsorships where further legislation would afford greater protection to young people will be put in place.

I would like to see an end to the link between sporting events and alcohol. By continuing to link high-profile sporting events with alcohol, we are sending out the wrong message. The reality is that alcohol consumption severely inhibits people's ability to compete. We must change our attitude to alcohol. Breaking the link between alcohol and sport would be a very positive step in the right direction. I urge all sporting organisations to seek sponsorship from business interests that are not involved in the alcohol industry. If they do so, they will be able to phase out sponsorship from alcohol companies. A number of larger sporting organisations have already commenced the process in this regard.

Alcohol consumption has increased at a staggering rate in the past ten years. We have gone from being a nation of normal drinkers to one of alcohol abusers. The effects of this on society are shocking and disturbing. We are suffering as a result of increased public disorder, higher rates of alcohol-fuelled violence and alcohol-related mental health problems. The Bill represents an important step in tackling this issue. It is time we reclaimed our towns and cities in order that people might walk the streets without falling over drunken individuals or being obliged to navigate their way through empty bottles, cans and the other things that are usually left over after a night's drinking.

I am delighted that action was taken in respect of this matter in Cork. The system there is not perfect but at least the by-laws are in place and are proving to be of assistance. The Bill before us is extremely important. I encourage local authorities in west Cork and other areas throughout the country which have responsibility for seaside resorts to introduce by-laws similar to those to which I refer.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

It is obvious the Deputy does not visit the seaside resorts to which he refers during the summer months.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We will all go down to the woods today.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

If those resorts were relying on the Deputy, they would not have any customers.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this issue, which is much discussed. Many and various people have offered the ultimate answers in respect of this matter. I am not sure the Bill will address all of the issues to which previous speakers referred.

There is always a danger that we might fail to recognise what are the real problems. When people did not have as much money available to them as was the case up until a couple of weeks ago, the problem was not so great because many could not afford to consume large amounts of alcohol at weekends.

I am concerned about the activities of the zealots whose ambition it is to close everything down in the hope that this will solve all our problems. The latter will not prove to be the case. I am also concerned with regard to the developing trend of people holding house parties, the alcohol for which is sourced from supermarkets or off-licences. Those attending such events can engage in extremely heavy drinking and this often results in serious rows. The authorities have no control over parties of this nature and people can, unobserved and unsupervised, drink alcohol and take drugs.

Some public houses have been unduly blamed for creating problems. In the past, most well-run public houses had a cranky barman who would tell a customer to go home — either at the end of the night or beforehand — if he adjudged that the latter had enough drink taken. He might also ask whether the person intended to go home at all. In certain instances, the barman might ring the person's home and alert "she who must be obeyed" as to the current whereabouts of the drinker. There were many aspects of local legislation in this regard which had a serious impact but which have gone by the wayside and been forgotten.

The most serious development in respect of people's drinking habits is the fact that the rural pub trade is being slowly strangled, which is sad. Rural pubs have been in operation for generations and they act as social centres and meeting points for people of all ages. There is a notion abroad that this type of thing should be stymied. In my view, some economist has decided that there should be no life in rural areas and that houses should not be built in these areas. Local authorities are doing a good job of ensuring that the latter will be the case and their efforts have the full support of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Post offices, which are part of the communications network in rural areas, are being closed down, as are petrol stations and local shops. The life is slowly being strangled out of rural areas. This is being done in the interests of mass marketing and the creation of new urban centres. If one consults a sociologist or a psychologist, he or she will inform one that living in such urban centres is not ideal.

There have always been problems with regard to alcohol during certain periods in this country's history. One of the difficulties that emerged in rural areas in the 1940s and 1950s came about as a result of the manufacture of moonshine. The problem with poitín and alcohol of that type was that standards relating to its quality fluctuated and the drinking practices of those who consumed it went unregulated. There was no control over it whatsoever and it caused horrendous damage in rural areas. It was recognised by church and State alike as a particularly bad phenomenon that had to be stamped out. It filtered away over the years — no pun intended — and has now virtually disappeared.

The problem we now face is the easy availability of alcohol to young people who do not seem able to control the consequences. Anti-social behaviour is not always the result of drunkenness. Members of this House have encountered countless cases of anti-social behaviour in which alcohol was not involved, although that does not excuse drunkenness. The current generation of school leavers seems to lack responsibility and direction. They do not seem to be capable of examining the negative and positive options involved in binge drinking, which can cause serious and permanent damage.

The question of zero tolerance should be addressed. I hope the Government does not proceed in that direction because it could have serious consequences for rural Ireland. Where will people drink and is it a bad idea? If we are to be self-righteous on this subject, we should ask whether alcohol should be banned, as was done in the United States in the 1920s. Prohibition was spectacularly unsuccessful in that country. The people who want to legalise certain drugs would claim that it was in the hands of the wrong people but I do not know. I do not think we should go down that road. A person who had three or four drinks on a Saturday or Sunday night will not risk going to work the following morning unless he or she has a driver. That is the stark reality of zero tolerance. It might be thought an easy way to catch people on the basis that it would discourage the consumption of alcohol altogether, but in fact it discourages driving and drinking. We must ask whether we want to abolish that particular practice altogether. Personally, I would go along with either side if it seemed to be the right thing to do but I warn that serious social consequences will ensue.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

We will have no pubs down the country.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Absolutely. As time goes on, it will be seen as part of an economic objective to extinguish the countryside. Eventually, the countryside will be nothing more than a parkland where people can take a stroll on the weekend or go for a picnic. That would be an appalling situation. It is no good for people to say that the intention is high-minded. That is utter rubbish because as members of local authorities we have seen the natural progression.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

It will make rural Ireland a Sahara desert.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Newspapers have reported that Deputies are acquiescent to publicans but the latter live and work in the country. I received only one representation on this Bill and a number of people were supportive of it. We must ask where we are heading. If we are heading towards the scenario to which I referred, we will face a dangerous problem.

Everybody has to live and take responsibility. In response to representations from many sources over the years, we extended the opening hours of pubs. I am not sure that was a great idea. If our population is not sufficiently mature to handle that, it may have been the wrong decision.

When I first entered this House, there were few, if any, off-licences in the country. A campaign was started to develop the off-licence industry, with the result that in some parts of the country publicans close their pubs and operate off-licences instead because the latter provides a solid trade. Alcohol is not consumed on the premises, so it is economically beneficial for the publican. The consequences, however, can be disastrous. I do not propose to set out the number of occasions on which a tragedy occurred in the aftermath of large purchases of alcohol from off-licences or supermarkets. I do not understand why no reference is made to the connection between road traffic accidents and the amount of alcohol consumed in private houses. No consideration is given to whether the alcohol is readily available in an uncontrolled environment, where a half bottle could be the same as a half a glass. That is a hugely important aspect of the matter under consideration.

Extraordinary and disgraceful actions are taking place in conjunction with the consumption of alcohol and, in many cases, drugs. There is little emphasis on the role of drugs in road traffic accidents. Some of us raised this issue several years ago but nobody bothered to listen. It is said that alcohol is equal to illicit drugs. It is a habit-forming drug but the difference is that few people use violence to obtain money for alcohol.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is looking at me as if my time is running out.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, I am not.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is fine. People will readily say we have research but that word has been greatly abused in recent times. Those of us who work in politics use research at times to come up with various answers. We also use those famous focus groups to come up with answers that are self-serving to a great extent. I do not know what useful information is provided other than that which is already available and which everybody knows. Occasionally, we get the information dramatically wrong, such as in regard to the anticipated result of an election. Where were the focus groups in these circumstances, what were they doing and who unplugged their message centre? Research can prove anything one wishes. It can point to all kinds of solutions to all types of problems. However, if it were that effective we would not have any problems with alcohol, drink driving or any other issue good, bad or indifferent. I tend to take research with a proverbial pinch of salt.

In the general scheme of things, no one would agree with the abuse of alcohol, drink driving or family disharmony arising from the consumption of alcohol, an issue I had intended to speak about earlier. There are many households for whom the combined consumption of alcohol and drugs creates a misery. The situation of the unfortunate alcoholic who cannot break the habit, even with the best will in the world, is also sad. These people, having obtained treatment and tried everything, often still cannot break the habit. It is easy for us to say something should be done about this but it is not all that easy for those whose families are afflicted in this fashion. That one person in a family continually resorts to serious over-indulgence in alcohol resulting in abuse and violence in the household is sad and appalling. This has always been the case; the situation has not changed with the passage of time. However, people now have more disposable income than they had 25 or 30 years ago. As a result, they are spending more money in this way and never without neglect in other areas. There is a consequence and a price to pay for everything.

I hope this legislation does some good and achieves what it purports to do, something we must all hope for. I do not believe it will abolish all the problems in this area. I also hope it does not become the death knell of social life in rural Ireland for the good and obvious reason that rural Ireland has faithfully and strongly supported this country's social and economic cause down through the years and will continue to do so. I see no reason it should not continue to do so.

The new generation, young people and school leavers in particular, need to be taught responsibility. I do not know how this can be done. Many of us are parents and know well how closely young people need to be watched. There is no excuse for junior certificate students going on a binge that lasts for two days. That is totally and absolutely unnecessary. It shows an appalling lack of judgment on the part of a person so young. While most parents pay special attention to the needs of such students there will always be one or two students and parents who do not do so and this, in turn, leads to peer pressure that results in the type of issues about which we are speaking.

I hope some of the issues raised by Members of the House, which are drawn from their own experience in their dealings with the public and their knowledge of what goes on in urban and rural Ireland, are taken on board by some of the focus groups and specialists who resort to the information gleaned in surveys and opinion polls. There is nothing like the voice of the true participant in rural and urban social life in Ireland.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I wish to share time with Deputy Michael McGrath.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I welcome the Bill as presented by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Dermot Ahern. I also welcome the changes made by the Minister following extensive consultations. Ireland's place on the European alcohol league table is not something of which we should be proud. While the Bill does not address all our ills, it goes a long way to addressing the areas examined last January by the alcohol advisory group established by the Government. It is essential that we all sign up to this legislation and help to implement it in an effective manner.

I wish to raise a number of specific issues. I welcome the proposed penalties to deal with rogue traders, publicans and off-licences that sell alcohol to young people. Another problem referred to is that of people drinking at home and then going to the pub for the last hour. It is difficult for publicans to identify such people. This issue needs to be addressed.

I am glad the Minister has decided not to include in the Bill a proposal to separate or fence-off drinks and customers and that people will continue to be able to browse and make their own choices before purchasing. I hope the trade will, during the next year or so, introduce a voluntary code in this regard thus meaning the Minister will not have to make regulations in this area.

Excessive consumption of alcohol causes serious issues for families and accident and emergency departments. It results in anti-social behaviour generally and absenteeism, all at substantial cost to taxpayers. I see merit in the Minister providing in future legislation for manufacturers, vintners organisations, wholesalers and the trade to pay a levy into a fund which could be used to treat people affected by alcohol. This type of support by the trade would be equally as beneficial as its existing support for sporting organisations.

A need exists also to recognise the great work being done by various groups and organisations, many of them voluntary organisations, including Alcoholics Anonymous. I pay particular tribute to Sister Concilio at Chuain Mhuire, Athy, County Kildare for the work she is doing. A fund sponsored by the trade would provide badly needed funds to these organisations which must depend on the State and voluntary sector.

Young people should be educated about the dangers of excessive indulgence in alcohol. A module in the transition year programme for second level students and in the back to education and outreach programmes could be very helpful in this regard. Indeed this type of programme could be extended to the workplace and could result in a decrease in instances of alcohol related illnesses and absenteeism.

Licensees should be fully aware that their licences are a valuable commodity which must be respected. Publicans should carry out their business in an orderly and reasonable manner. They should recognise their responsibility to ensure they and their employees take all reasonable steps to ensure they are fully compliant with the legislation. These regulations must apply also to those who lease premises.

Local authorities have introduced by-laws in towns and villages preventing the consumption of alcohol in public places. These by-laws have played an important role in the prevention of anti-social behaviour. I welcome the new arrangement whereby applicants must apply to the District Court rather than the Revenue Commissioners for various licences. This will ensure more transparency in this area. The grounds on which an objection may be made to the granting of a District Court certificate for an off-licence are to be extended to include consideration of neighbourhood needs and the existing number of licences in the area.

Another issue which the Minister should examine and which is not dealt with in the Bill is that of pleasure boats with a full public house licence travelling back and forth daily on our waterways. Applicants for licences of this type should also go before the District Courts. I welcome the inclusion in the Bill of provisions regarding the introduction of CCTV in certain venues. A programme of spot-testing for this service would be helpful to ensure the equipment is in good working order. Similarly, the test purchasing of alcohol by gardaí is welcome, as is the fact that gardaí will have the power to seize bottles, cans and containers where there is reasonable apprehension of public disorder and to ask people to leave an area in a peaceful and orderly manner.

Nothing in this Bill has a detrimental effect on rural pubs, which is welcome. In rural areas the pub is not just a place to drink. There is no place like a good Irish pub and, dare I say, there is nothing like a good Kildare pub. The Bill will reduce the threat of public order offences arising from the over-consumption of intoxicating liquor. I welcome the introduction of identification cards, particularly those issued by Garda liaison officers, which have played a major part in preventing under age drinking and improving the quality of life of those affected by it.

I suggest that in future Bills we introduce regulations with regard to staff and security personnel who must deal with young people on licensed premises.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Yes. That is a good point.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

It is important that security people be courteous and understanding of young people. They must not be seen as targets or as the sole abusers of alcohol. Many older people are also abusers, but young people appear to be the main targets. We should also investigate the labelling of alcohol products, as for tobacco products, to show the consequences of overindulgence.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I thank Deputy Fitzpatrick for agreeing to share his time with me and I welcome the opportunity to contribute on Second Stage of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008.

We must acknowledge there is a problem in this country with regard to the abuse of alcohol. I emphasise the word "abuse" because there hundreds of thousands of people who consume alcohol in a responsible fashion on a regular basis. They get enjoyment from it and do so without causing harm to themselves or a nuisance to anyone else. It is important we put the debate in context. Notwithstanding this, we need to be honest with ourselves and acknowledge there is a problem with widespread abuse of alcohol in society. Some of the implications of the consumption of alcohol in an abusive manner, as the Minister outlined in his Second Stage speech, are a wake-up call, if one were needed, about the negative consequences of this problem. For example, he mentioned that alcohol is a factor in 28% of all attendances at accident and emergency departments in our acute hospitals, that alcohol is a contributory factor in 36% of fatal road crashes, that 46% of those who commit suicide are intoxicated at the time, and that alcohol is involved in 25% of domestic abuse cases. The abuse of alcohol also has a negative effect on the economy. It contributes to absenteeism and leads to poor performance at work. If we were to calculate the effect in monetary terms, although it would probably be impossible to do so, it would run into billions of euro. However, the personal costs are incalculable. If we consider some of the results of alcohol abuse, such as road crashes and domestic abuse, we can see that the fallout in society is very serious. This makes it all the more important that the House treat this Bill as a priority and ensure its passage at the earliest possible time.

People living in communities throughout the country are terrorised by the anti-social behaviour sometimes associated with the abuse of alcohol. Every politician in this House is contacted on a regular basis by constituents who are dealing with that in their daily lives. We must accept in this debate that our love affair with alcohol, as a country, is not without consequence. Gardaí have an extremely difficult job in dealing with the abuse of alcohol and its fallout in society. There is nothing we can do in this House that will in itself resolve the alcohol problem in Ireland, but there are measures we can adopt which will help the Garda in carrying out its difficult task of managing the fallout of alcohol abuse. These measures must, in line with this Bill, deal with two issues: public order and controls on the environment in which alcohol is sold in both the off-trade and the on-trade. I commend the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and his predecessor, Deputy Brian Lenihan, on the speedy adoption the report of the Government alcohol advisory group. The report was submitted, as the Leas-Cheann Comhairle knows, at the end of March. The general scheme of the Bill was published in April, and we are here now, sitting late, to deal with Second Stage. It is to be hoped we will move towards the final adoption of the Bill in the days ahead.

I welcome the contribution made by the Bill in curtailing the consumption of alcohol in public places and that it allows gardaí to seize alcohol from persons who are under age. I was mistakenly of the view that the Garda already had this power. Many gardaí have already been exercising it without it being in statute form. They did so in a discretionary manner and they will continue to use the power wisely. In Cork county and city, as Deputy Noel O'Flynn pointed out, specific by-laws are already in place prohibiting the consumption of alcohol in public places. I know from my experience in Cork county that this works quite well. It varies depending on the level of enforcement by the Garda, but my experience is that these measures are helpful and that young people fear the seizure of alcohol and the consequences of being caught drinking in a public place as it will be brought to their parents' attention.

It is important to point out that the new measures put forward in this Bill are additional to all of the existing powers of the Garda Síochána. They are not in themselves the answer to the problem but if used judiciously by the Garda they will help to deal with the problem of alcohol abuse. They will also facilitate early intervention. If a garda identifies a group of people drinking in a public place early in the evening he or she can intervene and possibly prevent problems that might arise three or four hours later when a lot more alcohol has been consumed.

I welcome the Minister's statement in the House that he is willing to consider a code of practice to be put forward by the retail trade with regard to the structural separation proposed in section 8 of the Bill. If a proper code of practice is introduced by the sector, provided it is subject to independent audit and verification, and if the evidence on the ground is that retailers are acting responsibly, the Minister will give them the benefit of the doubt and will not invoke the provisions of section 8 on structural separation.

I welcome the restrictions on the hours in which alcohol may be sold by the off-trade. They are sensible and helpful. It is important the measures we put forward are meaningful and effective and contribute in a tangible way to dealing with the fallout of alcohol abuse. When we were discussing this in the Fianna Fáil justice policy group, many of us made the point that controls at the point of sale are what really count. When a person approaches a counter with alcohol, what checks and balances are employed by the person behind the counter? Does he or she ask for identification? How does he or she ensure that the person is not intoxicated and is over 18 years of age?

I welcome the broadening of the scope of objections that can be put forward by residents and the Garda when applications are made for off-licences. That residents feel the demand for the off-trade has already been met in an area will be a justifiable reason to submit an objection to the issuing of a licence. It is important that the penalties we impose for recurring breaches of this Bill and previous Acts are serious and feared by the trade. The fact that a premises may be shut down for a minimum of two days is an important step forward.

Much has been said in this House and outside about the move from the on-trade to the off-trade and the consequences for rural Ireland and alcohol consumption generally. This is a fundamental point because when alcohol is consumed in a public house controls are in place. The majority of public houses are owned by an identifiable person who has an interest in ensuring the establishment is well run and does not get a bad name or attract attention from the Garda. The shift from the on-trade to the off-trade has meant more alcohol is now consumed in an uncontrolled environment, often at home or at parties. The same controls are not in place and this may account for some of the problems that have taken hold in the past number of years.

With regard to special exemption orders, I welcome that a condition can be imposed that, on the granting of such an order, a closed circuit television, CCTV, system must be installed by a licensed premises. The Minister should further extend this and require certain licensed premises to install CCTV in the surrounding area, perhaps covering up to 100 m either side of the premises on the street outside. In the event of problems spilling onto the street the Garda would have the resource of CCTV to avail of in a related investigation. I also welcome the fact that the District Court must be satisfied that all fire safety standards have been met before granting a special exemption order. I welcome the tightening of provisions relating to theatre licences and the fact that they will be subject to normal licensing hours, as will any other public house.

Some issues outside this Bill must be highlighted, particularly parental control. Many of the problems in society relating to alcohol abuse are associated with young people, under age in many cases, consuming alcohol in an uncontrolled fashion without supervision. No law can be passed in this House that will solve the issue of the abuse of alcohol; parents can achieve far more by working on the issue and I encourage them to do so.

The secondary purchasing of alcohol is already illegal but we should send out a loud and clear message that it is highly irresponsible of any adult to buy alcohol for an under age person. Many adults do so at a profit, which is a disgraceful thing to do, and we should not be shy in condemning the practice. Alcohol is now so cheap that we must put effective controls in place. Section 13 allows for test purchasing, that is, the Garda using an under age person to attempt to buy alcohol. Such sting operations have a much greater role to play, not just in terms of under age drinking but across a range of areas in criminal law. I welcome this provision and hope the Garda use it.

I look forward to more progress in future on traceability and ID. I welcome the fact that the Bill allows for the introduction of regulations dealing with alcohol being sold at promotions in a cheap and irresponsible fashion. I congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this Bill.

Deputy Joe Costello

I am pleased to have the opportunity to say a few words on this Intoxicating Liquor Bill 2008. There is a sense of déjà vu in seeing another intoxicating liquor Bill as every Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform produces one and expects that it will do the business. We see a new Bill each session after the failure of a previous Bill put forward by a Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The problem remains as stark, dire and difficult to deal with after each Bill.

The former Minister emphasised extending the opening hours of public houses but the current Minister emphasises the reduction of the opening hours of off-licences. It is a case of one steps in and the other steps out; a shift in one direction is followed by shifts in other directions.

The provisions of this Bill are pragmatic and should have an impact in addressing the situation they are meant to address. They aim to resolve some of the public order issues that are related to the abuse of alcohol. However, it is seldom that legislation effects a significant improvement in matters of this nature. There is already much legislation relevant to this area that is not being implemented properly. Policing is haphazard and ad hoc and operates differently in different parts of the country, different counties and urban and rural areas. A certain flexibility exists in terms of Garda powers and this is an issue. For example, in County Mayo, for the offence of serving drink to minors, there is a high level of prosecution of owners of public houses and off-licences. In other areas prosecution for such offences hardly occurs. How robustly the legislation is implemented depends on the superintendent or chief superintendent in charge. This area could be addressed without new legislation.

There is an issue of lack of responsibility in the industry. There is a willingness to allow situations where people consume too much drink to develop and a blind eye may be turned to individuals, who could well be adults, purchasing drink in off-licences for minors. In general the industry has much to learn and the suggestion that it should be responsible for a fund to treat the negative effects of alcohol should be examined as such a scheme would show a certain level of responsibility.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle has often raised the issue of labelling and traceability. It was included in the previous legislation and the 1999 legislation but it has never been implemented. The Minister had the power to implement it but did not do so and nor did his predecessor. There is not much sense in introducing such provisions if they are not to be implemented. Labelling bottles, containers and cans of alcohol to identify where the product was sold, whether it be an off-licence, convenience store or supermarket, would be very useful for the Garda. Gardaí would be helped by knowing the source of the product they find being abused in a field and such labelling should not be beyond the abilities of modern science, considering the extent to which barcoding for prices and stocktaking exists in shops. That would be very helpful.

Part 3 of the Bill, which sets out some new Garda Síochána powers, involves an amendment to the provisions of the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 relating to the seizure of alcohol. The Garda already has a considerable body of powers which could be implemented. Its power to seize containers of alcohol in public places, at public events, etc., is not being implemented. I suppose it is a starting point.

I am pleased the alcohol advisory committee, which was established in January 2008, produced a report in March 2008. It is almost a record for a body of that nature to report within three months. This legislation, which results from that report, was published within a further three months and probably will be passed this month. It is something of a record to meet all such deadlines. The chairman of the committee, Mr. Gordon Holmes, did sterling work with this report, as he did with previous reports. His practical work in dealing with these issues certainly represents a service to the country.

The three central issues which are covered in this legislation, in the interests of curtailing public disorder and anti-social behaviour on the streets, are quite separate. The Bill addresses the increase in the number of supermarkets, convenience stores. petrol stations and off-licences selling alcohol, deals with the number of special exemption orders and sets out certain sanctions. We are so used to anti-social behaviour on our streets that we are almost immune to it. Such disorder does not surprise us greatly. When one travels around public places, such as city streets and housing estates, on weekend nights, one observes this major problem. One of the features of modern Ireland is the inordinate amount of disquiet and, in many cases, fear that is caused by groups of people who rove around in possession of containers of alcohol, or already having consumed alcohol. This is a relatively new phenomenon in so far as it did not precede the Celtic tiger to any great degree. New measures are required to deal with such actions, which have caused many people a considerable amount of grief.

Ireland is a nation that sees alcohol as its favourite drug. Irish people have been happy to consume it over the years. There is nothing new in that respect. Alcohol seems to attract people of all classes and ages. It is associated with junior certificate, leaving certificate and university students. It is at the heart of virtually every social event, including communions, confirmations and weddings. The social lives of most Irish people revolve around alcohol. Legislation of this nature will not change that culture. The need to address that culture may well be another day's work.

As we consider the nuts and bolts of every Bill that is presented, we should also focus on our broader philosophy — the thrust of what we are trying to do. It is not just a question of public order, which is the issue on the ground. We also need to reflect on why public order offences represent such a huge problem. I suggest that Ireland has never had a responsible attitude to alcohol consumption. Irish people who are not pioneers tend to engage in over-consumption. What is seen in Ireland as normal consumption of alcohol is seen on the Continent as binge drinking. The attitude of most European people to the consumption of alcohol is different from the actual experience in Ireland.

Much more work, involving much more time than we can give to this Bill today, is needed if we are to address the issues I have mentioned. Such a detailed consideration of these matters is the only way we can deal with this problem. Regardless of the amount of effort we put into legislation, it will not represent more than the tip of the iceberg. This problem is often highlighted on television when Irish sporting teams play abroad. There is something extremely boorish about the behaviour of certain characters in the stands who wave the flags of public houses or wear Guinness t-shirts. They are indicating it is their culture to have an affiliation with a public house or an alcoholic product. I suggest that they are non-cultural — rather than cultural — expressions and symbols.

I do not doubt that the availability of alcohol is one of the factors that contributes to the problems under discussion. The ready availability of alcohol leads to greater consumption of alcohol. The same would be the case if drugs were freely available. The trade in alcohol of supermarkets, off-licences, convenience stores and forecourts has mushroomed in recent years. There has been an increase in this area since the advent of the Celtic tiger. Now that the Celtic tiger is no more, I hope there will be a reduction in such activity. The new approach to the consumption of alcohol involves more drinking outside the public house, specifically in the home. There was a time when the consumption of alcohol was concentrated in public houses.

We need to consider how alcoholic products are presented in supermarkets and convenience stores. If one goes into a regular supermarket, one will find that alcohol is stocked in the same aisle that contains soft drinks, such as Lucozade, Coca-Cola and Pepsi. A child who is looking for a soft drink has to go to the same aisle as those who are looking for alcohol. There is a lot to be said for separating both types of refreshment. A different type of clientele is attracted to each. If young people find alcoholic products juxtaposed with soft drinks, that will make it easier for them to approach such products, including hard liquor. I agree with the idea of outlawing the below-cost selling of alcohol and certain types of promotion of alcoholic products.

We have not really spoken about the sale of alcohol Bill, which will make certain provisions in respect of sponsorship and advertising by alcohol companies. It is of major importance that associations involved in sporting and other healthy activities distance themselves from tobacco and alcohol companies which have used despicable mechanisms to sell their products. While there is no relationship between the two categories of organisation, they are always linked as if one leads to the other.

I am happy enough with the proposed restriction on the opening hours of off-licences. If off-licences are open from 10.30 a.m. to 10 p.m., people will have enough time in which to sell alcohol. I do not see a problem with that. I suggest that we could provide for a later opening time on St. Patrick's Day, as the proposed 12.30 p.m. opening time is a little early. The agreement that off-licences in Dublin city centre should not open until 4 p.m. on St. Patrick's Day, which was brokered by the Lord Mayor of Dublin, has resulted in a significant reduction in the awful mauling around the place at an early hour that has been associated with St. Patrick's Day in recent years. I do not see the reason for restrictions on the early houses. They are few and far between and the issue is one we can examine with a view to allowing them continue. They do not tend in any way——

Deputy Conor Lenihan

The Minister has indicated that he is not going ahead with that restriction.

Deputy Joe Costello

That is good news. I did not hear his contribution.

Deputy Conor Lenihan

No new houses of the kind will open but existing ones will be retained.

Debate adjourned.