It is proposed to take No. a12a, motion re sittings and business of Dáil — on the Supplementary Order Paper — No. 12a, Supplementary Estimate for Public Services [Vote 40] back from committee, and No. 24, Broadcasting Bill 2008 [Seanad] Second Stage (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. a12a and 12a shall be decided without debate and, in the case of No. 12a, any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith.
Order of Business.
There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. a12a and 12a without debate agreed?
We are being asked to agree to a motion relating to the arrangements for next week's business. Yesterday, the Opposition parties were approached to agree a certain arrangement in respect of the ordering of business next week in order that the budget and the Government's scheme relating to the bail-out of the banks might be accommodated on Tuesday and Wednesday, respectively, of next week. We were subsequently informed that the scheme had been prepared and a briefing was arranged for my party's finance spokesperson. However, I am still unsure when the scheme will be brought before the House.
On Monday the Government of Denmark announced a scheme relating to the banks in that country and details of said scheme have been made available. On Wednesday the British Government did likewise and made available the essential details relating to its scheme. It is nine days since the Government introduced legislation relating to the bail-out of the banks in this country, but the details of the scheme relating to that bail-out have not yet been brought before the House. If a week is a long time in politics, it is an eternity when it comes to the banks and the financial markets. Before I agree to the proposal before the House, I wish the Minister for Health and Children to clarify when the scheme will be introduced.
I agree with Deputy Gilmore. The matter of parliamentary questions for written reply not being taken on Tuesday next was not discussed with the Whips. Perhaps the Minister will indicate if the position is different.
As the Taoiseach noted yesterday, there will be a defining moment next week. The budget will be introduced on Tuesday and the Taoiseach will be travelling to Brussels on Wednesday to engage in a softening up exercise in respect of the European governments regarding the aftermath of the referendum on the Lisbon treaty. We understand that it may be the Government's intention to introduce the scheme on Wednesday afternoon next. Clarification is required in respect of this matter. While it is absolutely necessary to bring the scheme before the House, Wednesday would be the wrong day on which to do so. I informed the Taoiseach yesterday that if the Government wants to arrange a sitting for Friday, Saturday or Monday, the Opposition parties will facilitate its wishes in that regard.
We recognise the importance of this matter. We also recognise the importance of our being in a position to ask the necessary questions so that the scheme might, in the national interest, be properly framed. We should be made aware of the Government's intentions. It would not be right to take this important legislation on the day following the introduction of the budget when the Taoiseach will be in Brussels. Will the Minister clarify the position and indicate why parliamentary questions for written reply will not be taken on Tuesday? I understand that the latter issue was not discussed at yesterday's meeting of the Whips.
The outworkings relating to the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008 — one of the memoranda issued last week referred to it as "the Credit Institutions (Protection) Bill 2008" — must be presented in detail to the House. All the facts pertaining to the Minister for Finance's intentions regarding the new powers vested in him must be set out. What is proposed in terms of time will not allow for the full scrutiny that is necessary. I support the case put by colleagues for an extension of the Dáil sitting during the coming week and I expect a positive response to that request. This is an extremely important issue and we must get down to properly debating and understanding the nitty-gritty of what is involved. I ask that additional time be provided.
Parliamentary questions for written reply will be taken next week. Information in that regard is provided on the Supplementary Order Paper.
Intensive work is under way on the regulations to give effect to the Government's guarantee. The Government discussed the matter yesterday and it is clear that the regulations must meet with the approval of the European Central Bank and the European Commission. It would be pointless to discuss regulations that did not have the approval of both institutions. That is the current position.
The Minister for Finance met Opposition spokespersons last night. We had hoped to arrange for the Dáil to meet tomorrow to discuss the regulations, but I do not believe it will be possible to do so. It is the intention of the Government, particularly the Minister for Finance, to bring the regulations before the House as quickly as possible. The Minister has taken on board many of the suggestions made by members of the Opposition last week. As everyone is aware, we are in uncharted waters. The purpose of the intervention was to secure the stability of the Irish banking and financial system for the benefit of all the country's citizens. Given the complexity of what is involved, a significant effort has been made by those whose responsibility it is, namely, the Central Bank, the Department of Finance and the Attorney General, to draft these regulations for submission to the ECB and the Commission. I understand they were submitted yesterday after the Government had considered the matter. The Minister for Finance will stay in touch with Opposition spokespersons and the Dáil will discuss them at the earliest possible opportunity. We are all anxious to do that.
Might that possibly happen on Monday?
Is the proposal regarding Nos. a12a and 12a agreed? Agreed.
I was about to say it is great to see the Minister, Deputy Harney, back. The only person missing in order to have matters as they used to be is the Taoiseach's predecessor.
When Deputy Harney says it is the Government's intention to bring the Bill forward as quickly as possible if it is cleared by the ECB and the Commission today or tomorrow, may we take it the Dáil might meet on Monday in order to devote proper and adequate time to deal with this matter separately from the budget and from the Taoiseach having to deal with heads of government in Brussels?
Will the Minister give us an update in regard to the fact that the ECB has reduced interest rates by 0.5%? We do not want a situation where Irish banks are profiteering on the backs of taxpayers. This affects tens of thousands of householders. Two banks have announced they will pass on the interest reduction to their mortgage payers. That is absolutely appropriate and welcome. However, it should be clear that this is the first test of the Government under the new regime and the legislation we passed last week. We are now deeply involved in the banking sector. We must see that the interests of taxpayers are protected. It should be made clear to the banks that this interest rate reduction must be passed on to those tens of thousands of extremely hard-pressed mortgage payers in the shortest possible time. When the Minister replies could she tell the House whether we know the extent of rolled-up interest there is in these banks?
I welcome the publication of the Nursing Homes Support Scheme Bill or fair deal Bill. According to reports on the media this morning, this Bill might not become effective until the middle of next year. There are thousands of people who are exceptionally hard-pressed in terms of paying nursing home bills. Can the Minister advise the House when the Bill will be taken here? Can she guarantee there will be sufficient time allocated to debate it given that all Deputies in the House will want to have a say on it?
On that point, may I speak after my party leader?
I must call Deputy Gilmore first.
There are two matters I want to raise. One relates to the matter Deputy Kenny raised, namely, the matter of the banks passing on the reduction in interest rates to their customers. There is a second matter I want to raise. What approach should I take?
The Deputy may ask both questions. We must deal with the scheme coming before the House.
I agree with Deputy Kenny regarding the reduction in interest rates. That all of the main central banks in the world co-operated yesterday is unprecedented. It is the first time we have seen major international regulation and control of banking. The mortgage holder, the business that has a loan from a bank, and the customers of banks should benefit from that. It would be unthinkable for the banks not to pass on that reduction in interest rates to their customers. The Government should direct the banks here to do so given that the relationship between Government and the banking system is entirely different from what it was.
That will be before the House tomorrow. We cannot go into that now.
The second matter that I want to raise relates to information of which we were made aware this morning. I refer to the Private Residential Tenancies Board and the fact that 100 cases have been struck down because the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government improperly, inappropriately and, as it turns out, illegally, appointed two county councillors to the board of the Private Residential Tenancies Board.
The Deputy should ask questions on legislation.
We are dealing with the Order of Business. I want to ask that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government come into the House today to explain that decision. Cronyism is not new in Fianna Fáil but we now have incompetent cronyism——
We cannot go into that now. The Deputy knows very well that it is out of order.
I want to know whether the Minister will come to the House to explain why these appointments were made and account for something that has caused quite serious problems for the Private Residential Tenancies Board.
(Interruptions).
I call on the Minister to answer in regard to the matter raised by Deputy Kenny.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Is the Deputy's question on legislation?
Yes. As my party leader pointed out this morning, two illegal appointments were made to the Private Residential Tenancies Board. One hundred cases which were under investigation must now be reviewed.
I must move on.
The Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill will be before the House soon.
The Deputy may ask about that.
The Minister has made two illegal appointments. Who sanctioned those appointments?
The Deputy should keep to questions on legislation. I must move on.
The situation created by Ministers will affect legislation due to come before the House.
That is out of order.
Is the Minister going to put in place a situation whereby the monitoring of appointments——
A Cheann Comhairle——
On which issue?
The issue raised by Deputy Kenny.
Is it the one that was in order?
That is correct.
(Interruptions).
I will call the Minister if the Deputy does not proceed.
On the issue of the Government using its new-found leverage in regard to the banking sector, will the Government ensure that the Minister for Finance insists that the banks pass on the full 0.5% decrease in interest rates to customers? Further, will the Government insist that local authorities which are directly under the control of Government through the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government pass on the 0.5% decrease in interest rates to those who are dependent on local authority lending agents, corporations, county councils and so on for their mortgages to purchase their homes, recognising that those who are so dependent cannot get a mortgage in the commercial sector and need that decrease more than most?
The Deputy has made his point, just as Deputies Kenny and Gilmore did, and neither of them was in order either. The Minister must deal with the matter now.
In regard to the matter of passing on the interest rate cut, liquidity is important for banks and so too are customers. There is good competition in the banking sector for depositors and for mortgage holders and I expect the reduction will be passed on to the customers of banks. Two banks have already indicated that and I am certainly hopeful the others will do so.
In regard to the question of the Dáil meeting on Monday to discuss the issue, I do not want to give a commitment that the Dáil may meet on Monday and find we cannot meet that commitment. That would lead to confusion. It is the Government's intention that the Dáil will discuss this matter at the earliest possible opportunity. The Minister for Finance will be in touch with Deputies Bruton, Burton and other Deputies in regard to this matter over the next couple of days and as soon as he has had a response from the ECB and the Commission.
In regard to the appointments made in June, they are prohibited under section 169 of the relevant Act and were, therefore, ultra vires. That matter was brought to the attention of the Minister recently.
Is he on the naughty step?
In fairness, the Minister was not advised at the time of the appointments and corrective action is being taken.
On the fair deal legislation, it is the intention to have a thorough debate in this House. It is a major piece of legislation. It essentially deals with support for people in private and public nursing homes on an equal basis. It is also a mental capacity Bill. It takes on board the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission. It is modern legislation which is intended to deal with the issue of diminished capacity. That is why it has taken so long to draft. I will give it the time it requires in this House and the Seanad in order that we can have a good debate. I hope it will receive the support of all parties.
Will the Minister answer my question pertaining to county councils and the 0.5% decrease in interest rates?
I cannot allow that to happen.
I wish to address the nursing homes issue.
I think I have already dealt with it.
The Minister has not dealt with the matter.
I call Deputy Bannon.
The Minister spoke about the banks and other financial institutions——
I am glad the acting leader has cleared up the matter.
——but has not addressed the sector which is fully under the Government's control.
Please allow Deputy Bannon to speak.
The Greens are beginning to fade with regard to responsibility and accountability.
Will the Minister ensure the county councils will pass on the full 0.5% decrease to those who depend on local authority agents for their mortgages?
Please allow Deputy Bannon to continue.
There was nothing in the last budget to protect or manage our heritage resources. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government seems to be unaware these are finite. Sadly, I do not anticipate much in next week's budget but ask the third-in-command when we can expect the heritage fund Bill to come before the House.
I do not have a date at present.
There are no funds.
The Housing Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2008 is before the Seanad. When can we expect it to come before the Dáil?
I have asked about the property services regulatory authority Bill on a number of occasions and believe the Attorney General still has to decide whether a single or an omnibus Bill will be brought before the House. Will the Minister indicate whether it will be a single or an omnibus Bill and, if she cannot, when does she expect the Attorney General to make his decision?
I understand the property services Bill will come before the House this session. Obviously, the Seanad must conclude its deliberations on the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill before it can be discussed here. In regard to the Deputy's question on what is called the multi-units Bill, it has not yet been approved by the Government.
While I welcome the fact that the Minister published the nursing home legislation and gave it to us before she held her press conference, this is not the Bill originally promised. Serious concerns have arisen and I fully support those who have called for a debate on the matter. In regard to constitutional problems and the issue of liens on family homes, does making it optional——
The Deputy can raise that issue on Second Stage or table an amendment on Committee Stage.
——mean that if people do not apply for it, their loved ones will be thrown out of the nursing home?
The Deputy knows what to do. She is very experienced.
Serious concerns have arisen——
The Deputy can discuss the matter on Second Stage and bring forward an amendment on Committee Stage or even Report Stage.
——that it will be resource capped, in other words, subject to the moneys available.
Three options are open to the Deputy but this is not one of them.
Serious issues have arisen.
I do not want to be unhelpful when I say the Bill, as drafted, is exactly in line with the commitments made and that nobody can be adversely affected by it. In other words, nobody currently in nursing home care can have his or her contribution reduced as a result of the legislation.
Currently, but what about the person who will go into care in the future? What about those who are now being forced to apply to avail of this family home exemption?
That is not in order.
Nobody is being forced to do anything. It is optional.
What if they cannot pay?
It is my way or the highway.
That matter can be discussed on Second Stage, Committee Stage or Report Stage.
I welcome the publication of the Nursing Home Support Scheme Bill and hope it will be brought before us as quickly as possible.
I wish to raise several other issues of relevance to the Minister in charge today. When will the adoption Bill come before the House? Given the lack of information from the HSE, will the Minister tell us when the health information Bill, now in section C of the Government legislative programme, will be introduced? I cannot understand why it is being delayed. Similarly, when will the nurses and midwives Bill be introduced?
The Minister's former leader gave us an absolute guarantee that legal costs would be controlled but the legal costs Bill remains far away. Is there any intention to bring it forward?
The adoption Bill will be brought forward this session, as will the nurses and midwives Bill which will be sent to the Government shortly. The health information Bill will be brought forward during the latter half of next year at the earliest. The legal costs Bill will be brought forward next year.
On promised legislation, we all agree with the Minister that we are in uncharted waters.
Sinking.
In the light of the forthcoming budget, where stands funding for the Disability Bill——
We cannot deal with the issue of funding for the Disability Bill.
——and the promised sectoral plans? Will the necessary funding be made available to put in place the sectoral plans?
We cannot discuss that matter now. I wish we could but we cannot. The Minister on the Disability Bill.
The Disability Bill has been enacted. I think the Deputy is referring to the assessment of needs. We will have to await the Budget Statement from the Minister for Finance before we can comment any further on the issue.
We will be waiting.
Without breaching confidentiality, I can tell the House that additional resources will be made available in the budget for disability services.
The Minister has told us that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, did not receive the advice given in June to the effect that he was not entitled to appoint county councillors to the Private Residential Tenancies Board. I again ask if he will come before the House today to explain these appointments——
He is here but cannot be seen.
——and tell us what advice——
The Deputy will have to find another way of raising that matter.
——caused him to appoint a Fianna Fáil councillor from County Donegal and a Green Party councillor from County Monaghan to the PRTB.
We cannot go into that matter. In fairness, the Deputy has had a good innings and I must move on.
Did he read the letter?
As Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh might say, there are big residential tenancies markets in both counties.
Deputies will have to discuss the matter another time. They cannot raise it on the Order of Business. I am moving on.
These were utterly improper appointments.
Please, Deputy, that is a matter for the Whips as he is well aware.
Will the Minister come before the House or will he make a statement now?
The Deputy has had a good run and I must move on.
He is too green to come before the House.
Will he make a statement?
He is afraid.
We have a report on the PRTB.
I am moving on.
The Minister is too green to respond.
He is yellow.
Does he want to make a statement?
There is no question of that happening.
He wants to make a personal statement.
On a point of order, it has been a long-standing practice that when a Minister does something improper, he makes a statement and answers questions in the House. This week we received a report from Threshold indicating a huge increase in the number of illegal evictions.
That is not in order.
This is something which affects people. The PRTB made 100 decisions which have been struck down and I want the Minister to make a statement.
I ask the Whips to discuss the issue and take the heat out of it because it is not in order.
This is not something——
The Minister wants to respond.
He will not do so.
He wants a chance to respond.
Why did the Minister appoint county councillors from County Donegal and County Monaghan——
The Deputy wants to know if the Minister will address the House.
——to the Private Residential Tenancies Board, even though he had no authority to do so?
The matter is not in order and I must move on.
Jobs for the boys.
Before the Minister responds, I wish to raise the issue of redress.
I am not responding.
Some 100 cases have been suspended——
We are not going into the matter.
The Minister——
May I explain something to Deputy Lynch?
——is sitting over there, smiling.
I will have to ask the Deputy to leave the House in one second.
One hundred tenants do not know whether they will have a house next week——
Will the Deputy please allow me to explain something?
——and the Minister is smiling.
Please have the manners to allow me to explain something.
Fianna Fáil is smiling even more broadly.
Under Standing Orders of the House which are long-standing and I did not make, if a Minister is to make a statement, it is on his or her own initiative. That is clear and specific.
In his own time.
That is the position. If Members wish to change Standing Orders——
(Interruptions).
Stand up and speak.
That is putting it up to him.
We can only laugh about it.
Come on.
He lacks the courage.
Deputy Gilmore is not in a position to force the Minister to speak.
He is too green.
I want to be helpful.
On a point of order——
Please allow the Minister, Deputy Harney, to reply.
The Progressive Democrats are now the watchdogs for the Green Party, as well as Fianna Fáil.
I apologise. Is the Minister replying to the question I raised earlier?
Yes.
It is a matter for the Ceann Comhairle to decide whether he will allow a question or a matter to be raised on the Adjournment. Otherwise, the Whips can meet to decide whether time should be devoted to this issue. The Minister made the appointments in good faith. I know from taking legislation through the other House, in particular, that every party campaigns to have councillors included in boards and feels sore when they are excluded.
That is not true.
Last night, on the Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008——
It is not true. Where did the Minister of State get that information?
A Deputy
It is true.
Really, where did the Minister of State get that information?
I have to move on.
If the Ceann Comhairle allows time or if the Whips agree, the Minister will deal with the issue.
Motion re sittings and business of the Dáil, a substitute motion on a supplementary Order Paper——
On a point of order——
I ask Deputy Gilmore to sit down.
(Interruptions).
The Minister, Deputy Gormley, is moving away.
Deputy Gilmore, it is a long-standing tradition of the House that when the Chair is standing you must sit down.
The Minister is in retreat.
I am raising a point——
The Deputy is out of order and I am moving on.
I am raising a point of order.
I told the Deputy what the Standing Order is.
I am raising a point of order.
Tell me what the point of order is. I doubt if it is one.
You are pre-judging him, a Cheann Comhairle.
We will have to get to know each other a bit better, a Cheann Comhairle.
The Ceann Comhairle said that personal statements made by Ministers are at their initiative. I am saying this Minister did something that was illegal last June.
Let me tell you about that as well.
If that is not——
Please, Deputy Gilmore. I have to stop you there. As you well know——
(Interruptions).
I ask Deputies to grant me the courtesy of allowing me to continue. The Deputy must know that allegations against any Member can only be made by substantive motion and not by innuendo or otherwise across the floor of the House.
There is no innuendo.
It is not innuendo. It was in the papers.
That is the Standing Order. I did not make the Standing Orders. That is what it is.
On a point of order——
It is not a point of order, I imagine.
It is very brief and entirely in order. The Minister for Health and Children has just said, with the authority of the leader of the Government today, that the Whips would meet to discuss a time for this matter.
I am happy with that.
Could I have some information on when we will meet? I suggest we agree a time for the Minister to come to the House immediately after the Order of Business.
The Deputy should come to my office straight after this.
Straight after this.