Private Members’ Business.

Education Cuts: Motion (Resumed)

The following motion was moved by Deputy Ruairí Quinn on Wednesday, 29 October 2008:

That Dáil Éireann deplores the series of educational cuts announced in the budget and subsequently by the Minister for Education and Science; expresses its serious concern at the damage these cuts will cause to the education system and to the future prospects of our children; and calls on the Government, in particular, to reverse the decision to increase class sizes at first and second level.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"—recognises, given the difficult economic circumstances, the necessity to stabilise the public finances and that taking difficult expenditure decisions and choices at this time is essential in order to ensure that public services, including education, can be sustained and improved in the long run;

notes that the expenditure control measures in the education sector must be considered in the context of the Government's significant investment in education which has increased spending by over 300% since 1997, which has provided for significant improvements in resources and infrastructure across the sector including:

15,000 extra teachers working in our primary and post-primary schools;

the targeting of additional supports and resources for children with special education needs with over 19,000 teachers and special needs assistants now working with these children in our schools;

the targeting of additional supports and funding to schools in the most disadvantaged areas under the Department's DEIS (Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools) Action Plan;

the significant capital expenditure of over €586 million this year alone for the school building programme compared to just €92 million in 1997;

notes the long-standing role of partnership in education and the Government commitment to continuing to work constructively with the partners to build on past achievements and improve educational outcomes for all our students;

acknowledges that the education budget for 2009 shows a 3.2% increase on 2008, despite serious pressures on public finances and major challenges to our economic and social well being; and

recognises that these expenditure control measures, while necessary in the current circumstances, will be considered further by Government, in the context of prevailing economic circumstances, at the earliest possible opportunity."

—(Minister for Education and Science).

Deputy John O’Mahony

I am delighted to support the motion put down by Deputy Quinn and the Labour Party on the chaos that will be caused in the education sector if the cutbacks announced in the budget and subsequently by the Minister for Education and Science go ahead as planned. I have been a secondary school teacher for more than 30 years and I know at first hand the difficulties that will emerge inside and outside the classrooms of this country once these cutbacks begin to bite in a couple of months time. I have been in contact with every primary and post-primary school in Mayo over the last week. The response was one of anger, dismay and fear about what is going to happen in our primary and secondary schools after 1 January. My colleagues have dealt with many of the issues already but in my few minutes I want to address the effects on the promotion of sport and extra-curricular activities as well as some specific problems in my constituency.

Over the years thousands of teachers have given of their time on a voluntary basis to organise, train, supervise and manage school football teams in inter-college competitions across the length and breadth of the country. Some of the training was done before class in the morning, at lunchtime or after school. Teachers sometimes even drove the pupils home if they missed their school buses. We are talking about a whole range of sports including GAA, rugby and soccer. It is on the playing fields of St. Colman's, St. Nathy's, St. Muredach's, St. Jarlath's, Coláiste Chríost Rí, St. Kieran's Kilkenny and others that the future all-stars, All-Ireland medal winners, soccer and rugby internationals are nurtured. It is on those pitches that they learn how to win and lose, how to cope with success and defeat. They learn the meaning of teamwork, loyalty, trust and discipline. As a teacher who trained teams to win All-Ireland competitions at schools level I know how involvement in sport helps to relieve the pressure of the academic points race. I know how self-esteem built on the school pitches helps students in the classroom and the exam hall.

The Minister stated here last night that as regards promotion of sport in our schools we have merely returned to how things were in the early years of this decade. I say to the Minister that the world has changed since 2002. No principal can risk leaving the class of a teacher unattended while he goes to take charge of a football team, as was the case in the past. Colm O'Rourke, a school principal and a top footballer in the past, was right when he stated in his column last weekend: "The days of leaving classes to their own devices while a teacher went to a football game are thankfully long gone."

Deputy Brian Hayes

Hear, hear.

Deputy John O’Mahony

We should remember also that the teacher who goes with the team is doing so on a voluntary basis. He must be the minder, trainer, kit-man and medical man. He must get a referee, pay the caretaker and so on. As a teacher I always found that I could get to know my students better on the playing field and therefore got greater co-operation in the classroom. Is the Minister intending to put all that at risk by implementing these cutbacks? If cover is not provided for games there will be a negative impact on the physical and social development of students. This will lead to increased discipline problems in the classroom, as there will be no outlet for students to burn off their aggression.

We all know we are nowhere near meeting the recommendations of the report of the national task force on obesity, which states that every child should have at least 30 minutes of exercise every day. A Fine Gael survey carried out by my colleague Deputy Deenihan showed that students in a quarter of the schools surveyed received less than an hour of PE per week. The obesity crisis and the health problems associated with it will cost the State in the long term.

A couple of years ago nine secondary schools in Mayo which had been in the old DEIS scheme were excluded because of new criteria that were drawn up. Of a total of 43 schools excluded nationally, 25% were from Mayo. A similar story existed at primary level. Due to the upcoming general election, a compromise was reached whereby schools were allowed to keep some of the privileges they had. However, these have now been taken away in the budget. Some schools in Mayo must face not only class size increases but also a loss of posts for disadvantaged areas as well as home-school liaison officers. I have heard from three secondary schools in Mayo alone that they will each lose five teachers if these cuts are implemented. That is among just three schools, yet the Minister stated that only 200 jobs would be lost. How can the Minister justify this?

Last Friday I visited Craggagh national school, a three-teacher school with a wonderful atmosphere and great sense of teamwork. On 1 September 2008 there were 48 pupils on the roll, enough to retain its three teachers, but under the new guidelines this number will be reduced to two. Thus it is losing 33.3% of its staff. Each teacher will have to look after four classes. There is a perception out there that class size will only increase by one, but in this case the number in each class will increase by ten. This is not on. Small rural schools will be hardest hit. I could go on and on.

It has been asked where Fine Gael would find the resources. I do not have time to elaborate on this but I will make one simple point. What about the millions spent on prefabs? One school in Mayo spends €70,000 per year renting prefabs. There is also the perception, with regard to the Fine Gael proposals, that we want to hit teachers' salaries. Our proposal for a pay freeze for those earning more than €50,000 is aimed at protecting the jobs that will be lost under the Minister's cutbacks. I strongly commend the motion.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I support the Labour Party motion concerning the cuts to the education system. I ask the Minister to reverse his decision to increase class sizes at first and second level. This budget will possibly go down in history as the worst ever. It is a vicious attack on those over 70, our schoolchildren, the old, the vulnerable and other citizens of this country. Let us not get too confused here. People are saying the budget was rushed, ham-fisted and ill thought out. In fact, this budget was show time once again. There are spin-doctors, wizards and spooks out there who are monitoring what I am saying. They orchestrated the general elections in 2002 and 2007 and every budget in between. It was show time for them. As in the general elections, there were the chorus, the lead singers, the orchestra, the comperes and the cheerleaders. There were also the vested interests. In previous budgets we have had everybody texting around the country telling us how good the budget was going to be. Indeed, there was a standing ovation from the members of the Government. What they could not hide, however, was that there was no substance to this budget and that the devil was in the detail. The fiasco of medical cards for the over 70s resulted in a protest outside the Dáil by 15,000 brave citizens who saw through the smoke and mirrors. We had the students, the farmers and many more, and now the principals, teachers, students and parents are protesting again.

There is a list of 32 education cutbacks in budget 2009. I could read them into the record but they have already been read. However, I will mention a few, including the reduction in school building programmes. In Ballinamore in my constituency of Roscommon-South Leitrim, we had nine public meetings attended by more than 300 people. The Minister promised that a school would be delivered in Ballinamore and I expect him to keep that promise. In addition, the grants for school choirs and orchestras have been abolished, as have the early child care centres, and there has been a radical increase in school transport costs. As spokesperson on school transport, I feel this is anti-family and anti-rural. The Minister of State, Deputy Seán Haughey, lives in the constituency of Dublin North-Central which has had its difficulties, certainly in terms of educational challenges, but not when it comes to provision of school transport. Most of the students live within 2.2 kilometres of the school and they have footpaths, cycle lanes, walkways and a good public transport system available to them but that is not necessarily the case in rural Ireland. A total of 140,000 children avail of school transport each day. The cost of school transport for junior cycle students last Easter was €99 per student. That has increased to €300 in less than six months. It now costs parents of two junior cycle students €600, which is an increase of over 203%.

Where were the Green Party Members on this occasion? I welcome the provision of tax relief on the purchase of a bicycle but it is of no use to school children. Parents who have their own transport are not affected but parents with two children who do not have their own transport, and who may have to walk a mile to get to public transport, must pay €600 for those two children. The Green Party wants to take cars off the road but it is now cheaper to drive one's children to school than it is to avail of public transport. That goes against all the policies of Sustainable Ireland and it must be reversed.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I wish to share time with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and Deputies Blaney, Gogarty, Cregan and Fahey.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in support of the Government amendment to this Private Members' motion on education. In political commentary here it is often said that three areas should be protected — social welfare, health and education — but that analysis ignores the fact that those three Departments account for 78% of current gross Government expenditure. The reality is that it is impossible to bring the public finances under control without addressing these Departments but notwithstanding that, the Government, in extremely difficult fiscal circumstances, has safeguarded them to the greatest possible extent. They are the only three Departments that have secured an increased budget for next year. Education has been prioritised.

Every Member in this House is at one on the importance of education in our society. All of our experiences of the education system have shaped us as individuals but the debate on this motion cannot be detached from the reality of a €13.41 billion deficit next year or a €4.7 billion deficit on the current side. That must be addressed.

The Government cannot sustain a situation in the coming years where we have a deficit of 6.5% of GDP. We have no choice but to tackle the issue, and every area will have to make sacrifices, but the Minister has done remarkably well to shield the education sector from the worst of the cuts that were necessary. The education budget is increased by 3.2% or €302 million and by any objective measure, investment in our education system in the past ten years at primary, post-primary, third level and in the emergence of fourth level has transformed the educational landscape for the better.

I am proud of the in-class supports we are providing to special needs children in mainstream schools. A total of 19,000 adults now work solely with children with special needs in our schools. There are 10,000 special needs assistants compared to just 2,000 in 1997. Those supports are unrecognisable from the time I and many Members were in the primary education sector.

Class size is probably the most emotive issue that has emerged in the debate in recent weeks and this covers the decision to increase the ratio from 27:1 to 28:1. My son is in primary education, in first class. He is in a class of 30 and is one of only 20% of pupils who are in classes of 30 or more. That is not ideal. Like every other parent I would like my children to be in the smallest class size possible but I would prefer my son to be in a class of 30 than for this Government to take out a mortgage on his future and the future of every other child in the primary education sector because we did not have the political courage to confront the grave economic situation that persists.

I had occasion recently to visit my former primary school in Passage West. When I was in the school there were 35 students in my sixth class; it was a multi-grade class. The Minister has stated on the record that when resources permit, the Government will review the situation and reduce class sizes further. It is disingenuous to suggest that the enormous progress we have achieved since 1997 is being undone in this budget. That is untrue. The staffing schedule changes that have been announced reverts us to the situation that prevailed in the 2006-07 school year.

The Minister put it on the record last night, and I do not believe it was a political point, that when the Opposition was last in power the pupil-teacher ratio was 35:1. That is not a criticism because ten years ago Ireland was a very different country to what it is today. In the past ten years we have reduced that ratio to 27:1 in very good economic times but we are now faced with a crisis in the public finances and a modest adjustment is being made, increasing the ratio back to 28:1. In the circumstances, that is not an unreasonable sacrifice to ask to be made.

On the primary sector, it has been clarified that 900 new posts will be created for the next school year, with 1,100 being removed by virtue of the measures announced in the budget. There will be 200 fewer primary school teachers on the payroll next year, as there is this year.

I welcome the commitment the Minister has made on the capital budget — an increase of 11% to €889 million. I also welcome his commitment to restore the summer works scheme, review the language support teacher provisions on a case by case basis, and the increase in the capitation rate to €200 per pupil.

Our duty to the children of this country is not limited to the time they spend in our education sector. There is an even greater duty on us as public representatives to ensure we do not cripple their future by allowing the public finances spiral out of control, which would condemn them to a future of high taxes to pay the debts we have generated.

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan)

This debate allows us to address a crucial issue in a time of real change in our country. We must get three things right. We must get our finances in order, both in terms of our own budget and in terms of getting saner and sustainable lending going again; we must get real public sector reform; and we must then start to plot a path to economic recovery to allow us generate the wealth that pays for the social services we all want to see happen.

In regard to the budget and getting our finances right, the Government was faced with a difficult task. The reduction in public finances in terms of the tax income is massive and has been very swift in the change that has occurred. On the response by the Government, the broad parameters in terms of trying to make up some of the €6 billion gap that we had not expected but that had evolved and had to be dealt with was to see approximately €2 billion in tax revenues raised, mainly in five areas which target the better off. Those are capital gains tax rises, tax on second homes, tax on the higher VAT rate, which does not affect food, clothing, heating and other essential provisions, and a number of other taxes.

A total of €2 billion will be raised in cuts in spending, and €2 billion in increased borrowing, adding to our borrowing requirement. There is clear recognition that the increased borrowing means we are looking at a two or three year path out of the economic crisis we are in. Next year the recommended borrowing requirement will double. We can do that because our overall level of borrowing nationally compared to other countries is low but there is still a very difficult two to three year task that we must set out, and we should be honest with the people as to the nature of that.

When it came to the cuts, it was decided in Government that every Department would play its part but that there would not be cutbacks in real expenditure in education, health and social welfare, despite the fact that approximately 80% of Government spending is accounted for in those three large social areas. In education there is an increase in expenditure of €300 million rather than a real cut. However, the reality is that the wage bill and the increasing number of students coming into the system required the Minister for Education and Science and the Government to collectively agree a series of measures which would allow him operate within that budget. That presents a real difficulty and a challenge but it is something we could not avoid within the context of the overall budgetary arithmetic.

My second point relates to public service reform, which is crucial to the debate. It would be wrong for us not to recognise that in the education sector, as in every other sector of the public service, there is scope for reform. We cannot continue to operate as we have for the past ten years, particularly in light of the changes that have occurred globally. There has been a budgetary increase and if we were to bring about reform in the education sector and achieve efficiencies of 2% or 3% in the context of how things are done, it would give us the resources to provide the services everyone wants to be delivered. The issue of reform goes hand in hand with that relating to budgetary matters.

Like the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, I look forward to negotiating with the partners in order to discover the means at our disposal to try to achieve efficiencies. There are simple examples that can be provided which do not help the teachers in their cause. First, there is the inflexibility that exists in the context of an inability to move from one school to another without one's rights being lost. Second, there is also an inability to move staff from a school where there is an excess of teachers to one where there is shortage. In this moment of real crisis and change, we must alter the way we operate. We must be innovative and efficient in education and every other sector of society. That is the crucial task we face in the context of delivering the services required.

My third point relates to economic recovery and how this might be achieved. An interesting article appeared in one of the newspapers this morning suggesting that what happened in Finland, which underwent a shock similar to that being experienced by Ireland in the early 1990s, is an example of how to proceed. Finland experienced a 6% drop in GDP in 1992 and a 4% drop the following year. The shift was dramatic and came about as a result of changes that had occurred in the Russian Federation.

Deputy Brian Hayes

We have all read the article.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

Finland invested in research and development and, in particular, education in order to map out a path to recovery. That is the model we should emulate and we are well placed to do so——

Deputy Niall Blaney

Education has taken centre stage this week. The protests held outside the House yesterday by many people who work in the education sector brought this matter into sharp focus. I regret that this is the case.

I acknowledge the vast contribution teaching staff make to the lives of children. Teaching staff in this country are extremely committed and professional and I commend them on their efforts. Like most other Members, I came through the education system and I fully understand and appreciate the professional service provided in schools throughout the country.

I come from a rural area in County Donegal and I attended a small primary school in which there were two teachers. The big event at our school was the day on which the lorry carrying turf arrived and students were allowed to leave their classes in order to transfer the turf from the roadside to the coal shed at the rear of the building. This was the sum of our extracurricular activities. It is sometimes worth one's while recalling how things used to be. I am still a young man but even if I cast my mind back only a few years, I remember there was little discussion regarding disadvantage or special needs. Unfortunately, many children were left behind because the additional services they required were not available when I attended school.

It is time to acknowledge the services that are available today. There are approximately 19,000 adults in our schools who work solely with children with special needs. I will break that figure down because it is worthwhile discovering the way in which these resources are utilised. Some 10,000 of the adults to whom I refer are special needs assistants, SNAs. In 1997 there were only 300 SNAs in our schools. A further 7,800 are resource and learning support teachers, of whom there were just 2,000 in 1998. Some 1,100 other teachers are involved in supporting children in special schools, while hundreds more work in special classes.

In the budget, €10 million is being provided for children with special educational needs. Among other benefits, this will provide a 33% increase in the money available to the Department's psychological service. As a result, more psychologists will be working with children in our schools during the coming year. It will also provide additional funding for the National Council for Special Education and enhance its capacity to co-ordinate the provision of services at local level for children, parents and schools.

There has been much discussion of cuts to services in recent days. It is important to highlight the vast investment that has been provided for education in the budget. A great deal of anger has been expressed with regard to increases in class sizes. It is not ideal to be obliged to implement this measure. However, we must recognise that we are rolling back to the position that obtained in 2007, when people were still provided with an excellent level of education.

Some false information has been disseminated during the past week and I wish to correct some of it. Statements have been made to the effect that class sizes in Ireland are the largest in Europe. That is simply not the case. Furthermore, Ireland's performance in international assessments of achievement underlines the fact that the quality of the education system does not merely equate to class sizes. Surveys carried out for the programme for international student assessment, PISA, indicate that Irish 15 year olds have outperformed students in OECD and EU countries where class sizes are significantly lower than in Ireland. Ultimately, however, I wish to stress that we want to be in a position to reduce class sizes. We intend to resume that exercise in more stable economic times.

It is worth noting that €9.6 billion was allocated in respect of education in the budget. This represents an increase of over 300% in the allocation since 1997. It also represents an increase of €302 million on the amount spent on education in the current year. This is an investment in respect of which the Government, which is doing its utmost to prioritise education, should not be derided.

There are difficult times ahead and we must work together to overcome the problems we face.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Who created those difficult times?

Deputy Niall Blaney

If we do so, we can navigate our way through the difficult times.

Deputy Paul Gogarty

I wish to begin by telling a story. Approximately one year ago, as Chairman of the Joint Committee on Education and Science, I called an emergency meeting on the water charges issue. It may have been coincidental but when I called that meeting, there was a response from the Government. My aim in calling the meeting was to try to obtain an agreed cross-party motion from the members of the committee, the purpose of which would be to send a strong message to the Government. It became apparent on the day of the meeting that a motion would be tabled by Fine Gael and Labour. This meant a Government counter-motion would have to be tabled. I informed Deputy Quinn that this would lead to the committee's motion being watered down and that, as a result, it would not have the same impact. Deputy Quinn replied, "That is politics, Paul".

I agree with the Deputy, that is politics. That is why the Labour Party tabled the motion before the House. It is also why the Green Party, Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats are tabling an amendment. I praise the Labour Party for tabling the motion because it has provided a good opportunity for debate and exerted pressure on the Government.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Deputy should vote in favour of it then.

Deputy Paul Gogarty

The latter is extremely important, particularly in these straitened economic times.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear. Well done.

Deputy Paul Gogarty

This matter relates to our economic and social well-being and also to our children. I am happy the Labour Party is fulfilling its obligations as a party of opposition. The Green Party is also fulfilling its obligations as a party in government. That is why I am satisfied to stand over the Government amendment which the Green Party played its role in framing.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Tadhg an dá thaoibh.

Deputy Paul Gogarty

The amendment recognises that we are in tough economic times and that progress has been made in some areas, while cutbacks have been made in others.

That was an appalling apologia for a once-proud party. I am amazed. I do not believe what I have heard.

Deputy John Cregan

Many rural schools — as a rural Deputy, I am not sure about urban schools — have availed of the fantastic summer works scheme.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It is gone.

Deputy John Cregan

It is not gone.

Deputy Jimmy Devins

It is back.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

It is back.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Did the Green Party get it back? Fair play.

They can do successful work in a way that secures tremendous value for money. I welcome the fact the scheme, which will be availed of by many schools throughout the country, is back in place.

I have much regard for the Labour Party and great regard for Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I do not think it is mutual.

Deputy Frank Fahey

However I am sorry to see the weak, opportunist opposition we are getting from the Labour Party in this situation, above all from a man who is well respected, a former Minister for Finance who was in a position where he had to take those decisions.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Remember Fianna Fáil in Opposition.

Deputy Willie Penrose

Deputy Fahey wrote the book on opportunism.

Deputy Frank Fahey

He did what was necessary then, but, unfortunately, Labour is running for political cover, trying to be popular with everybody.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Has Deputy Fahey still got his fishing rod?

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

I propose to share my time with Deputies Kathleen Lynch, Penrose, Stagg, Upton and Ciarán Lynch. I have only five minutes to reply to Deputy Fahey's comments. It tells its own story that when my colleague, Deputy Quinn, was Minister for Finance between 1995 and 2000 there was sustained economic growth supported by export performance. Between 2000 and 2005 the growth rate was sustained by the wildest forms of property speculation. If Deputy Fahey wants to discuss the mad property speculation that drove the economy or the multimillionaires who benefited from pension transfers, he will find it in the last five budgets by his colleagues in Fianna Fáil.

Last weekend students from one school in Athenry, a neighbouring constituency of Deputy Fahey's, delivered 500 letters. Interestingly, this school has never expelled or suspended a student and has produced the first Traveller who will emerge from Mary Immaculate in a short period of time. In that school the grant for Travellers' education has been cut. Let us get real about what is happening. If Deputy Fahey decided to go to Claddagh national school, where six teachers deal with language difficulties, he would find that the cut to two teachers will be catastrophic not just for those coming in but students at all levels. For those who sit beside students who have difficulties with the English language it will be a disaster. Deputy Fahey need not believe me. He can talk to the teachers and the principal.

If Deputy Ó Cuív takes time from his rambling leithscéal bréagach that he spins on Raidió na Gaeltachta he might like to go to Coláiste Chroí Mhuire, Spiddal, where a parent wrote to me this morning saying:

Tá fíor imní orm faoi na rudaí seo leanas. An méid is a cuimhníos, idir mhúinteoirí agus dhaltaí ranga, caillfidh an scoil múinteoir amháin. Caillfear múinteoir eile de bharr an tarraingt siar ar ár stádas faoi mhíbhuntáiste. Tá na deontais seo a leanas imithe: tíos, fisic, ceimic, ceol, idirbhliain agus scéim iasachta leabhair. Leanann sé ar aghaidh.

It is extraordinary that the Green Party can talk about innovation at the same time as it destroys creativity in the curriculum. With all the money gone for the materials for physics and chemistry, home economics, everything to do with school orchestras, music and art teaching among others, this is a curriculum policy of philistines. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, talks about innovation and sustainability that comes from individualism in society. That form of connection between economy and society is over. Courageous people are talking about new forms of social economy and the kind of creativity that will give several different kinds of economic opportunity. Those on that side of the House must realise what has failed. The old model of unregulated markets has failed internationally. In addition, their wild speculative incentives driving individualist accumulation of profit is also gone. Regarding Deputy Fahey's question on where the money would have come from, why confine themselves to €200 for the second or third house? Why not make it a geometric progression? Deputy Fahey would know all about what would be gained from that.

Many people have come to me, parents, teachers and boards of management members from St. Paul's secondary school in Oughterard and Calasanctius in Oranmore to name but two; there is a long list and I have no time to waste on it. In the Irish Independent of 25 October Mr. John Walsh, a distinguished graduate of NUIG, listed what will happen in three schools in three different parts of the country. In the case of a disadvantaged school in Dublin the net loss is that special subjects, transition year, the applied leaving certificate, the junior certificate, home economics, the Traveller grant and special provisions for physics and chemistry will be abandoned. This is not republican and it is not about citizenship or sustainability. It is a slash and burn, ignorant, savage set of cuts that impact on children who are not responsible for the wild, crazy economics for which Deputy Fahey and his party are responsible. They should be ashamed. These are disgraceful cuts. The Minister can flap all he likes and read his letter from Deputy Gogarty — “Dear Batt in China”. Let us hope parents, teachers and children give him the answer he needs.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

As a debate goes on people change what they will say and that has clearly happened today. I listened yesterday and today to Deputies on the Government side telling us how they were in classes of 35 when they grew up. One said he was in a class of 40. Let us analyse that because we all know what it is. In here we see those who survived the classes of 35 or 40. We need to find out how many people in such classes left school unable to read and write, how many got a worthwhile job, had to emigrate or never got to enjoy the things we enjoy every day because they cannot participate at a functioning literate or social level. We know the answer because we know how many attend the National Adult Literacy Association, NALA, every year. We know how many people in our communities sign up for literacy courses every week. That is what the Government wants us to go back to.

There is no such thing as withdrawing these cuts in two years time because in two years' time a current five year old will be seven or eight. The period in which students learn to read and write is that short span and it will be past. That eight year old child will then be desperately seeking a place with a remedial teacher, who will have doubled his or her numbers and who will have no place for him or her. This is not something we can do for a short period of time and then readjust; we cannot get that time back because a child's life does not stand still. As Barnardos rightly says, a childhood lasts forever. That child will grow into an adult and, if lucky, will have parents and a determined cohort of people around to ensure he or she has the skills to survive into adulthood. However, a small group will not get those supports.

This Government insisted children with special needs go into mainstream education, and that is very important, but with supports. It has suspended the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act, which gives children with special needs support in mainstream education. Those children will flounder and their parents will go out there, determined, once again. These parents are tired. They fought and fought and spent years campaigning to have these special needs supports put in place for their children. These have now been suspended. The report has been with the Government since 2006, yet this Government did not see this catastrophe coming down the tracks.

They never had any intention of putting it in place. It is not about this particular crisis — the Government never intended to do it.

What will the Minister for Education and Science say to the schools in Cork that are desperately trying to keep their heads above water? One particular school, where 49% of pupils are in need of English language tuition, is about to lose two teachers. What will he say to the child in the 35-pupil classroom or to the child that Mr. Michael McDowell insists we need because a little bit of inequality is good for us? This Government will ensure that we have that little bit of inequality for the rest of our lives at least.

Deputy Willie Penrose

As a teacher recently said to me, it is amazing that at this juncture of our economic cycle, when the Minister for Finance is calling on us all to be patriotic, it is the young, elderly and disadvantaged who are being called upon to be the most patriotic.

The budget will increase class sizes and diminish the learning experience of children for years to come with the staff schedule that has been announced by the Minister. The Government and the Department of Education and Science have asserted that these changes will result in the loss of just 200 teaching jobs at primary and secondary level. However, the INTO claims that changes to staffing schedules, the cap on English language teachers and reduced numbers of teachers for formerly designated disadvantaged schools will result in the loss of up to 1,000 teaching posts at primary level, while the TUI estimates that up to 1,200 jobs could be lost at second level.

The proposed cuts at primary level have the potential to be devastating because they will affect children during their formative years on the educational ladder. The cuts will not simply mean one extra child per classroom, as many have claimed. The changes will mean that children will have to be divided up between classes from September 2009. A school with three teachers for senior infants, for example, will only have two teachers from next year. As Deputy Quinn has pointed out, matters will be exacerbated by the fact that the primary school population is expected to grow by 100,000 over the next seven or eight years.

Education is the ultimate passport for young people. It is a passport to the future, to freedom and liberty, to opportunity and to the workplace. Without the vision and boldness of the former Fianna Fáil Minister for Education, the late Donagh O'Malley, I would never have seen the inside of a secondary school. I would have fulfilled my destiny as a manual labourer on building sites in Ireland and Britain, as would many like me.

It is important to value our education system as holistic, with more than just the classroom involved. As the late Brother Keegan, who taught in the CBS in Mullingar used to say, "the sharp mind is aided by a healthy, fit body". He believed that those who succeeded on the playing fields were also likely to progress academically. In that context, games were very important. Mr. Liam Mulvihill, who taught me, used to arrive at school at 8.15 a.m. in his Anglia car, all the way from Kenagh, and bring us out to the training grounds at Ballinacarrigy national school. He went on to become the Director General of the GAA. Indeed, that organisation is up in arms over these cuts because it recognises that they will have a severe impact on children.

As a Deputy, I receive a great many letters but never before have I seen such a tide of correspondence as that generated by these cuts.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The response is spontaneous.

Deputy Willie Penrose

Yes, it is spontaneous. I received a letter from Loreto Convent in Mullingar which outlines that the cutbacks will mean the loss of two teachers, larger class sizes, restricted choice of subjects for students, difficulty providing separate classes for higher, ordinary and foundation level in key subjects, a reduction in language support hours and no substitution. What does no substitution actually mean? It means that there will be no cover for teachers who are on uncertified sick leave or on official school business, for example, at football matches, on field trips to the theatre and so forth. At least two teachers must accompany students to such events in order to comply with health and safety legislation, and rightly so, as well as to comply with insurance obligations. Therefore, such trips will no longer be possible under the current cutbacks because, at Loreto Convent, for example, the teachers would each leave behind up to 30 students for each class period, of which there are nine. That equates to 270 students per teacher, or 540 students without adult supervision during the school day. According to the letter writer, the decision of the Government will have a devastating impact on numerous curriculum related activities in the school and will put an end to the provision of a magnificent range of extra-curricular activities which is such a celebrated feature of the school. As well as all of that, the book grant for eligible students will be abolished, school transport charges will increase and any increase in the capitation grant will be cancelled out by the loss of grants for transition year, leaving certificate applied, home economics, physics, chemistry, Traveller education and for the choirs and orchestra.

A similar situation will pertain at St. Finian's College, the CBS in Mullingar and every national school in the area. I also received a letter from the most reverend Dr. Richard Clarke, the Bishop of Meath and Kildare, who is involved with Wilson's Hospital School. He maintains that voluntary Protestant rural schools appear to have been specifically targeted by the withdrawal of support services grants, mid-year, which amounts to a mid-year budgetary seizure of resources. The removal of State grants to Wilson's Hospital School will mean the loss of €125,000 of its funding. The school was hoping to celebrate 250 years of existence in 2011. However, Dr. Clarke writes that it is "not being melodramatic" to say that it may now, genuinely, not be able to do so. He goes on to say that if the Government wishes to withdraw its commitment to denominational education, it is free to do so, but the destruction of schools such as Wilson's Hospital School, which is not a socially elitist establishment and which is very liberal in its enrolment policy for those of traditions other than the Church of Ireland, is shameful, particularly without even the courtesy of consultation.

I could go on but if the Minister for Education and Science wants a summary of the impact the cuts will have, he should read the article by Colm O'Rourke in the Sunday Independent last week. That article encapsulates the exact impact of the cuts. I salute Mr. O’Rourke, who normally writes a sports article, for using his column to point out the negative impact the cuts will have on the future of our school children. It is time for the Minister to reverse the engines.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

In 1997, 2002 and 2007, Fianna Fáil told bare-faced lies to the public about class sizes and has repeated those persistently since. They were not the bad years when we had no money. They were the good years when we had plenty of money. As the Tánaiste said at that time, money was coming out of the Government's ears but it did nothing about class sizes then.

The INTO, in the lead-up to the last election, conducted a fantastic campaign, involving parents and teachers, on class sizes. Unfortunately, however, when Fianna Fáil made another series of false promises to the public about what it would do if re-elected, the INTO swallowed it hook, line and sinker. I warned the INTO at the time that to be fooled once or twice was bad, but to be fooled three times was too much. Unfortunately, though, that is what happened.

I have been in this House for a long time, comparatively speaking, but I have never seen a budget like this before. This budget is aimed at children who have only eight years of opportunity in national school; children between the ages of four and 13 who have only one chance to lay a foundation for the rest of their lives.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Hear, hear.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Government will damage that chance and that foundation by what it is proposing here. All of those who vote for the budget proposals — including Deputy Paul Gogarty, who runs with the hare and chases with the hound, and my constituency colleague, Deputy Áine Brady, who is a very fine Deputy — will be damaging these children. Resigning from her teaching post in Celbridge, as Deputy Brady promised to do in the local newspaper, will have no effect at all on this issue. What Deputy Brady needs to do, if she wants to be effective, is vote against the cuts.

In the short time allowed, I wish to refer to teachers, who have been scapegoated in this debate by the Government. I wish to compliment teachers in Ireland on doing their jobs in extremely difficult circumstances. I also wish to debunk the notion that they are paid too much. The reason that 80% of the cost of education in Ireland is wages is that we do not provide the other facilities that the education system needs. Instead, we send parents out to beg in the street to provide such essential services and facilities.

Teachers fought hard for decent conditions for themselves, to which they are entitled. They have well-earned those improved conditions and they have my support. I am not at all supportive of the idea that they should be targeted to fund the mess the Government has made. The scapegoating of teachers' unions and teachers is something I will not support.

In my constituency, before these cuts were announced, 28% or 1,300 children were in classes of more than 30 pupils. In one school in particular, St. Brigid's in Celbridge, there are four classes of 34. That school will lose two teachers under the budgetary proposals. Deputy Áine Brady's school, Scoil na Mainistreach, Celbridge where she is still a teacher, will lose three teachers. She said if it lost any teachers she would resign her job as a teacher. I understood her job was in the House, but that is a matter for her. St. Patrick's national school is a permanent school on a temporary site in the corner of a GAA field, in which 85% of the pupils are newcomers. For this reason it has five language support teachers, but it will now lose three of them.

The Government has targeted the poorest people by removing the book grants for children who cannot afford to lose them. It has targeted Travellers who cannot afford these cuts and who need extra support and it has targeted the most vulnerable non-nationals in schools. Shame on the Government. It did not touch the fat cats in the budget. Our proposals are available if the Minister for Education and Science wishes to examine them. Shame on the Minister for this mean-spirited budget aimed at the poorest victims.

Deputy Mary Upton

I will try to address all aspects of education including from 4th level down to primary level. Last week I received a brochure with smiling photographs of the Minister for Education and Science, the Tánaiste, and the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Jimmy Devins, called Towards a Framework for Researcher Careers which included the following vision statement: "To make Ireland by 2013 internationally renowned for the excellence of its research and to the forefront in generating and using new knowledge for economic and social progress within an innovation driven culture". In the meantime we heard the budget announcement that the two research councils, namely, the science, engineering and technology council and the humanities and social sciences council, must reduce the number of awards granted. The budget for research and development activities is down by 31%, which reveals much about the Government's commitment to the knowledge economy. This addresses 4th level education.

In third level education I refer to the capitation fee increases from €900 to €1,500. There is no provision for increases in student maintenance grants, which will force students already on the margins out of a place in third level. The reduction in provision of 500 places on the back to education initiative will exclude people who are struggling to improve their skills in order to get back to employment.

I am bamboozled by the differing versions bandied about by the Minister for Education and Science of the numbers of teachers who will be lost at primary and second level. The numbers have a touch of Alice in Wonderland about them. They seem to mean whatever the Minister wants them to mean. However, it is certain that the numbers of teachers at second and primary level will be significantly less next year than this year.

The removal of grants for subjects such as physics, chemistry and home economics and for options such as choirs and orchestras will turn our schools into, at best, grind schools, with a very narrow spectrum of subjects from which to choose and where survival of the fittest will become the norm. What happens to the schools that have been running such good programmes as the leaving certificate applied and vocational programmes, which concentrate on extracurricular activities, and which recognised and cherished this aspect of learning as part of the development of the student, where values other than academic values have a very important place?

What will happen to sport in schools? Deputy John O'Mahony has already eloquently described the consequences in this area. It will be impossible for schools to run sports programmes with the reduction in teacher numbers. Furthermore, the Minister for Education and Science told me recently that the Department has no fix on the number of schools that have physical education facilities. Why does the Minister not know and why can he not find out? I know the answer to this question, it is because the policy in this area is a sham and many primary and secondary schools do not have even the most basic physical education facilities. In the meantime the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, pays lip service to the importance of the development of students' social skills, their health and fitness and the value of sport in the community.

In some cases the commitments and promises for school buildings were first made more than ten years ago. I realise I sound like a broken record asking about the physical education hall for Loretto College, Crumlin, along with promised extensions for a school in Inchicore, for primary and second level schools in Crumlin, for Templeogue second level schools and class sizes for boys and girls primary schools in Terenure. Instead of meeting any of these promises, the budget will result in an increase in class sizes. Schools will lose teachers, teachers will lose jobs and children will lose their chance of a decent education. There is no sign of a sod being turned anywhere for a new school extension or PE hall in my constituency.

The removal of the book and library grant, the withdrawal of substitution cover, the cap on allocation of language support teachers and support for Traveller children will do irreparable damage to the chances of many children. Parents will be asked for more and more subventions to pay for the supposedly free education of their children. Does the Minister have any idea how difficult it is for schools to ask parents for one more subvention, or how difficult or impossible it often is for parents to come up with the money?

We woke this morning and heard the Green Party stunt man demonstrate how to be in government and in opposition at the same time——

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Voilà.

Deputy Mary Upton

——with the opportunistic leak of some supposedly dramatic information. I say to the Green Party there is no need for any more soul searching, or double think. It could simply support the Labour Party motion and prove that it is concerned about the education of the children of this country.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The question before the House this morning is, simply, does the education of a child have a price or a value that can be measured beyond its cost? According to the Government it does not. Its attitude is save now and let today's child pay the cost later. What are these costs? I will provide an example. In 1999 an OECD report was carried out in Ireland which showed we had one of the worst literacy rates in the developed world. It revealed that one in every four adults lives with a functional literacy difficulty. That means one in four adults must take a back seat when an opportunity presents. It means one in four adults does not seek promotion, because he or she is afraid of the paperwork involved. It means one in four adults does not get involved in a residents' association, because he or she is afraid to fill in the minutes of the meetings. It means one in four adults dreads the thought of a child coming home on a daily basis looking for help with homework and, because he or she cannot help the child, he or she sees the problem recycling before his or her eyes.

Earlier this year Mr. Larry Fleming of the Irish Primary Principals' Network said eight out of ten primary schools in the Cork area were wasting valuable teaching energy fundraising to keep afloat and to struggle with the 17 cent per child per day capitation grant. On top of this burden, the Government wishes to laden down these parents and teachers with the cost of sending their children to the most overcrowded classrooms in Europe. I received a text message this morning from a person in my constituency in Cork, saying four teachers are to be laid off from a school in Togher.

Earlier this week, I received correspondence from Bishop Paul Colton, a Church of Ireland bishop for the southern region, which was sent to the Minister for Education and Science. Will the Minister respond to this letter? Bishop Colton says that in 1968 there was an agreement with the Government that Protestant schools would not be classified as fee-paying schools, although fees were charged for boarding and other costs, but classified as schools in a free scheme. The classification was appropriate because the schools provide education for Protestants in regions and parts of the country where the State does not. If these schools fold, will the State fund schools under Protestant management? The Minister for Education and Science must address this matter and respond to it when he gets an opportunity.

I recall prior to last year's general election a meeting in the Rochestown Park Hotel attended by Deputy Kathleen Lynch and other Members of the House, including I believe, the now Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. Some 1,400 parents crowded into a room and there was possibly another 1,000 outside the door as they could not fit. They complained about overcrowding in classrooms in Ireland more than one year ago. Today in the House after a decade of unprecedented wealth, the only ambition the Government can show to these parents is that it wishes to put Ireland at the top of the list for overcrowded classrooms across Europe. The cost of overcrowding is not only measured in bricks and mortar or classroom sizes. It has a cost paid throughout the life of a child into adulthood. It not only relates to overcrowded or combined classrooms which is what will result from these measures.

I read in this morning's newspapers a headline about the Green Party possibly pulling out of Government. I was reminded of the line from Shakespeare that children doing the leaving certificate are probably reading today. It states that the lady — or in this case, the Deputy — does protest too much. We will see how this protester manages himself when he goes through the lobbies later today.

One can only question the Green Party's motivation to be in the Government, given what has happened in the last two weeks. Is it that they see the world in cult-like apocalyptic terms on issues such as climate change? Are issues such as medical cards, decent housing and proper education for our children just worldly things that distract us from salvation from climate change? Is that what the Green Party in Government is all about? Is it all about a single environmental issue, or is it here to be part of a Government that represents the broader needs that provide us with a proper environmental society?

The amendment brought before the House by the Minister wants us to accept that the children of our nation be asked to suspend their right to a decent education. He dresses it up by saying that when the economic crisis is resolved, this matter will be examined. He is actually saying that costs must be saved by the children of our nation to pay the price for the incompetency of his Government. That is what this amendment is about. The amendment means that as a child goes along the milestones of development in what should be a journey of lifelong learning, there is a toll to be paid at each milestone from now on.

Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science (Deputy Seán Haughey)

The Minister for Education and Science unambiguously set out the Government's position on education spending here yesterday evening. The Taoiseach also told the House yesterday that the Government would continue to set out for the people the full realities of the economic and fiscal crisis that has to be managed and that it would continue to take strategic decisions to protect future prosperity, regardless of the implications for political popularity in opinion polls. In the limited time available to me, I want to reiterate the essential realities of the situation.

The 2009 budget required difficult choices to be made across all areas of public expenditure. These decisions were made to control public expenditure and to ensure sustainability in the long run. In this respect and while protected to a much greater extent than most other areas of public expenditure, education could not be totally spared. Like the Minister, I am concerned at the air of unreality about the debate——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

That is good coming from a Haughey.

Deputy Seán Haughey

——on this Private Members' motion that does not reflect the seriousness of the current global economic uncertainty. Prudent management of the Government finances is particularly important at a time when tax revenue has fallen so significantly and when world economic conditions are so serious. Even with the budget measures in place, there will still be a significantly increased borrowing requirement in 2009.

The budget measures mean that education is one of just three Departments that have increased budgets for 2009, but it still required tough decisions to be taken to remain within this funding, especially since over 80% of the Department's current funding goes on the salary costs of teachers, special needs assistants, lecturers and others working across the education sector. The Government's commitment to education is clear from its track record over the past decade in providing substantial additional resources, most notably extra teachers to meet previously unmet needs, and from the programme the Government set when it came into office. Much has changed in the past year and the foremost imperative is that we stabilise the public finances. It is only by doing so that we can shelter gains made and put ourselves in the position of being able to make improvements in the future.

We will do this by building on the substantial achievements of recent years. These include 15,000 extra teachers working in our primary and post-primary schools, the targeting of additional supports and resources for children with special education needs to bring the total number of special education staff to over 19,000, the improvements in the capitation grant, which at primary level is now at €200 per pupil and almost €1,000 per pupil for those in special needs classes and special schools, and the additional €79 million in the Department's capital programme, which will facilitate a summer works scheme in 2009 and build on the record provision in 2008 of about 12,000 new school places at primary level.

The issue of class sizes has dominated this debate and has been presented as a crisis. While important, the position is not as stark as that portrayed by the Opposition. The Minister made clear yesterday that all we are doing in primary schools from next September is proposing to staff schools on the same basis as they were staffed just over one school year ago. When the State was able to afford it, we reduced the basis on which primary teachers are allocated to schools from 35 pupils per teacher down to the current level of 27 pupils. The change to a new average of 28 pupils per teacher has to be viewed in that context. Significant additional support went into schools, particularly in the area of special education. We also reduced class sizes for the most disadvantaged in our DEIS schools to an average of one teacher for every 20 pupils in junior classes and an average of one teacher for every 24 pupils in senior classes. These will not be changing in 2009. When we add up all the teachers in the system there is one teacher for every 16 pupils in our primary schools.

The children of this nation are central to the debate today.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

They are indeed.

Deputy Seán Haughey

Of far more importance to their future is not the measures announced in this year's budget, but that when they leave the education system, we have sustainable economic growth so they can work and live in this country as they head into adulthood.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Based on property speculation.

Deputy Joan Burton

I wish to share time with Deputy Eamon Gilmore. One of the great glories of Irish education in recent years has been the phenomenon of a great number of graduates and young people interested in starting a career in education. These teachers have brought new life to many of our new schools in expanding areas, along with the existing teachers. What has not been mentioned by any of the Ministers on that side of the House, be they from Fianna Fáil or the Green Party, is that students expecting to graduate next year and the graduates currently in conversion courses will in many cases no longer have jobs to go to. We will be educating the cream of our young people who are willing to take up a life in education. We will educate them and they will once again emigrate to the UK, Australia and New Zealand, where no doubt their skills will be snapped up.

The McKinsey report shows that the biggest differential on whether a child is successful in school is the quality of the teacher. The OECD reports show that we are at the middle level in literacy and reading skills, but we are far below the average in maths. All the teacher training colleges have concentrated in recent years on new and expanded ways of teaching and interesting children in maths and science. However, those teachers will not now be getting the jobs.

In my area, we have an extraordinary number of diverse schools with a very large international population. Almost every school, whether in a wealthy or less well-off area of Dublin West, has an enrolment 30% of which is made up of international children, children with a disability in the mainstream and traveller children. This spells a disaster for a progressive policy of integration that would offer the most marginalised and disadvantaged children a head start in education. Such a head start will last their whole lives, and all the research shows that. I draw the attention of the House to Huntstown national school, a facility in my constituency catering for just under 1,000 pupils. Over the past 20 years, it has pioneered the mainstreaming of international children, children with a disability and Traveller children. The school has been internationally recognised for so doing.

I received a letter from a nine year old girl in fourth class at that school. She stated:

Yes.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

How does he justify cutting 8% from the budget for youth services at a time when society is concerned about what is happening on our streets? We need to provide worthwhile activities for our young people.

Deputy Frank Fahey challenged me and the Labour Party about where we would get the money. I have two answers to that. First, the Government is not making savings at all because down the line it will have to pay for this kind of "penny wise, pound foolish" approach to education. If the Government makes it harder for a child to learn in primary school, it will have to pick up the cost in remedial teaching at secondary school. Reducing subject choice at second level makes it more difficult for people to participate in third level. Ultimately, that makes it harder for the economy to recover. Those who fall through the cracks in the education system because of underfunding will end up costing money through additional bills for social welfare, health and justice.

Second, Deputy Fahey should examine the curious arrangement the Government has made with the banks. We had a bail out scheme for the banks which was the talk of the country for weeks. The Taoiseach told us: "Don't worry about it. It will never be called in because the banks, collectively, will pay for it. If a bank goes to the wall, the other banks will club together and do it." It was even written into the scheme that banks participating in it would agree to indemnify the Minister in respect of any payments covering liabilities made by the Minister following a claim made under the guarantee. The ink was hardly dry on that scheme, however, when the Government did a sweetheart deal with the same banks. The Department of Finance website published an arrangement whereby a covered institution is not required to indemnify the Minister in respect of any payments made by the Minister under a guarantee given by any covered institution which is not a member of its corporate group.

While this Government is bringing in one of the most savage budgets in the history of the State, it is giving the nod and wink to the banks that it has asked the Irish taxpayer to bail out. It is a nod and wink for the banks, but the lámh láidir for the poor school pupils.

I am not angry at the Green Party, I am just sad about it. I heard the contributions from the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and from Deputy Paul Gogarty. I saw a party that is just beaten. Deputy Gogarty shrugs his shoulders and says: "That's politics." We are all political practitioners and we understand that politics involves compromise, and there can sometimes be a degree of grandstanding. Politics, however, also means standing for something. Unless one stands for something, there is no place for one in politics. I have always identified with what the Green Party has said and stood for, as well as the philosophy behind their politics. I have to ask myself today what does the Green Party stand for. The Green Party went to the people at the last general election saying they were going to look after education and they were going to look after children. They have let them all down. They have failed to honour that pledge and to stand up for education and for the children of the country. If a party cannot stand up for the very issue it put in biggest highlights in its party political broadcast and in its pre-election promises, is it any surprise that such a party drives a motorway through the Hill of Tara——

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——that it builds incinerators which it told people it was never going to allow build or that it allows prisoners to continue to be rendered through some of our airports? The Green Party is dead; the Green Party is beaten and this is a sad day for this country. However, the Green Party has an opportunity to recover and to redeem itself. The Green Party can make a stand here today. This is a motion which is very simple; a motion calling on the Government to reverse the decision to increase class sizes. The Green Party, like every individual backbench Deputy in Fianna Fáil, will have the opportunity in a few minutes' time when the Ceann Comhairle puts this motion to the House to vote with the Labour Party. This is an occasion where politics is about standing for something. It is about standing by the children of the country, by their parents, by the education system. It is about the future of education in this country which is so necessary if this country is going to achieve an economic recovery or it is simply about staying in office, getting further and further out of touch with the reality of people's lives and further away from the promises and pledges that the same party and politicians made to the public a bare 15 or 16 months ago.

Amendment put.

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Given that the margin of the vote is actually less than the number of Green Deputies in the House and being anxious to accommodate Deputies who want to publicly display their support for the Government's cuts, like Deputy Áine Brady, my constituency colleague, and Deputy Paul Gogarty, in particular, and as a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Emmet Stagg is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Amendment again put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 80; Níl, 74.

Tá

Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.
Andrews, Barry.
Andrews, Chris.
Ardagh, Seán.
Aylward, Bobby.
Blaney, Niall.
Brady, Áine.
Brady, Cyprian.
Brady, Johnny.
Browne, John.
Byrne, Thomas.
Calleary, Dara.
Carey, Pat.
Collins, Niall.
Conlon, Margaret.
Connick, Seán.
Coughlan, Mary.
Cregan, John.
Cuffe, Ciarán.
Cullen, Martin.
Dempsey, Noel.
Devins, Jimmy.
Dooley, Timmy.
Fahey, Frank.
Finneran, Michael.
Fitzpatrick, Michael.
Fleming, Seán.
Flynn, Beverley.
Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
Gogarty, Paul.
Gormley, John.
Grealish, Noel.
Hanafin, Mary.
Harney, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.
Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.
Kelleher, Billy.
Kelly, Peter.
Kenneally, Brendan.
Kennedy, Michael.
Killeen, Tony.
Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
Kitt, Tom.
Lenihan, Brian.
Lowry, Michael.
McDaid, James.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
McGrath, Mattie.
McGrath, Michael.
McGuinness, John.
Mansergh, Martin.
Martin, Micheál.
Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Michael.
Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M. J.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O’Brien, Darragh.
O’Connor, Charlie.
O’Dea, Willie.
O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Hanlon, Rory.
O’Keeffe, Batt.
O’Keeffe, Edward.
O’Rourke, Mary.
O’Sullivan, Christy.
Power, Peter.
Power, Seán.
Roche, Dick.
Ryan, Eamon.
Sargent, Trevor.
Scanlon, Eamon.
Smith, Brendan.
Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Mary.
White, Mary Alexandra.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.
Bannon, James.
Barrett, Seán.
Behan, Joe.
Breen, Pat.
Broughan, Thomas P.
Bruton, Richard.
Burke, Ulick.
Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Catherine.
Carey, Joe.
Clune, Deirdre.
Connaughton, Paul.
Costello, Joe.
Coveney, Simon.
Crawford, Seymour.
Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.
D’Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, John.
Deenihan, Jimmy.
Doyle, Andrew.
Durkan, Bernard J.
English, Damien.
Enright, Olwyn.
Feighan, Frank.
Ferris, Martin.
Flanagan, Charles.
Flanagan, Terence.
Gilmore, Eamon.
Gregory, Tony.
Hayes, Brian.
Hayes, Tom.
Higgins, Michael D.
Hogan, Phil.
Howlin, Brendan.
Kehoe, Paul.
Kenny, Enda.
Lynch, Ciarán.
Lynch, Kathleen.
McCormack, Pádraic.
McEntee, Shane.
McGinley, Dinny.
McGrath, Finian.
McHugh, Joe.
McManus, Liz.
Mitchell, Olivia.
Morgan, Arthur.
Naughten, Denis.
Neville, Dan.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Dowd, Fergus.
O’Keeffe, Jim.
O’Mahony, John.
O’Shea, Brian.
O’Sullivan, Jan.
Penrose, Willie.
Perry, John.
Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.
Ring, Michael.
Shatter, Alan.
Sheahan, Tom.
Sheehan, P. J.
Sherlock, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.
Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.
Timmins, Billy.
Tuffy, Joanna.
Upton, Mary.
Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Amendment declared carried.

Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Given the importance of the issue at hand and the closeness of the vote, as a teller, under Standing Order 69 I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Emmet Stagg is a Whip, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.

Question again put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 72.

Tá

Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Ahern, Noel.
Andrews, Barry.
Andrews, Chris.
Aylward, Bobby.
Blaney, Niall.
Brady, Áine.
Brady, Cyprian.
Brady, Johnny.
Browne, John.
Byrne, Thomas.
Calleary, Dara.
Carey, Pat.
Collins, Niall.
Conlon, Margaret.
Connick, Seán.
Coughlan, Mary.
Cregan, John.
Cuffe, Ciarán.
Cullen, Martin.
Curran, John.
Dempsey, Noel.
Devins, Jimmy.
Dooley, Timmy.
Fahey, Frank.
Finneran, Michael.
Fitzpatrick, Michael.
Fleming, Seán.
Flynn, Beverley.
Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
Gogarty, Paul.
Gormley, John.
Grealish, Noel.
Harney, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.
Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.
Kelleher, Billy.
Kelly, Peter.
Kennedy, Michael.
Killeen, Tony.
Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
Kitt, Tom.
Lenihan, Brian.
Lowry, Michael.
McDaid, James.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
McGrath, Mattie.
McGrath, Michael.
McGuinness, John.
Mansergh, Martin.
Martin, Micheál.
Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Michael.
Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M. J.
Ó Cuív, Éamon.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O’Brien, Darragh.
O’Connor, Charlie.
O’Dea, Willie.
O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Hanlon, Rory.
O’Keeffe, Batt.
O’Rourke, Mary.
O’Sullivan, Christy.
Power, Peter.
Power, Seán.
Roche, Dick.
Ryan, Eamon.
Sargent, Trevor.
Scanlon, Eamon.
Smith, Brendan.
Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Mary.
White, Mary Alexandra.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.
Bannon, James.
Barrett, Seán.
Behan, Joe.
Breen, Pat.
Broughan, Thomas P.
Bruton, Richard.
Burke, Ulick.
Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Catherine.
Carey, Joe.
Clune, Deirdre.
Connaughton, Paul.
Costello, Joe.
Coveney, Simon.
Crawford, Seymour.
Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.
D’Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, John.
Deenihan, Jimmy.
Doyle, Andrew.
Durkan, Bernard J.
English, Damien.
Enright, Olwyn.
Feighan, Frank.
Ferris, Martin.
Flanagan, Charles.
Flanagan, Terence.
Gilmore, Eamon.
Gregory, Tony.
Hayes, Brian.
Hayes, Tom.
Higgins, Michael D.
Hogan, Phil.
Howlin, Brendan.
Kehoe, Paul.
Kenny, Enda.
Lynch, Ciarán.
Lynch, Kathleen.
McCormack, Pádraic.
McEntee, Shane.
McGinley, Dinny.
McGrath, Finian.
McHugh, Joe.
McManus, Liz.
Mitchell, Olivia.
Morgan, Arthur.
Naughten, Denis.
Neville, Dan.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Dowd, Fergus.
O’Keeffe, Jim.
O’Mahony, John.
O’Shea, Brian.
O’Sullivan, Jan.
Perry, John.
Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.
Ring, Michael.
Shatter, Alan.
Sheahan, Tom.
Sheehan, P. J.
Sherlock, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.
Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.
Timmins, Billy.
Upton, Mary.
Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 30 Oct 2008