I am not going to stand up in the House and impugn the personal integrity of any person. The House has discussed on a number of occasions the capacity of appointees of the Government to do the job for which they are appointed. One of the primary considerations of this Government has been to focus on the business of wastage of money. It is now perfectly obvious that there is something radically wrong in regard to the organisation known as FÁS or Foras Áiseanna Saothair. This organisation has an expenditure of €1 billion at its disposal. Since the latest revelations, my office has been flooded with claims. I do not know whether they are valid but they are coming from most unusual sources. In light of the fact that the fraud squad is undertaking an investigation; the Comptroller and Auditor General has been ordered in by the Tánaiste or at least she has attempted to order him to conduct an investigation; and the Committee of Public Accounts is investigating various matters concerning FÁS, I wish to remind the Taoiseach of what he said in June when he stated that the chief executive of that organisation was a person he held in the highest regard and whose integrity he would defend at all times.
Leaders’ Questions.
He said it again yesterday.
The Tánaiste said that this matter was all in the past. I would like to hear the Taoiseach's view on what has gone wrong because something is radically wrong.
The latest revelations are about some place in Florida and somebody in my office picked out some information about it for me from the Internet.
One of the more affordable vacation spots in all of Florida, there is never a lack of exciting things to do and see in and around Cocoa Beach. Besides offering the best of sun and fun while on the Space Coast, you can go deep-sea fishing or parasailing, try your luck aboard a casino cruise ship or take a fabulous eco-tour to get up close and personal with Florida's awesome wild life.
What is the response to that?
Does the Taoiseach consider it appropriate that a sum of $400 of Irish taxpayers' money should be spent on some person in a nail bar in west Cocoa Beach? Is this appropriate expenditure of Irish taxpayers' money when 10,000 people a month are losing their jobs? Is the identity of the person concerned known to the Taoiseach?
Look at the colour of his nails.
Allow the Taoiseach to reply without interruption.
The answer to the second question is "No". The serious point to be made is about the fact that as a result of the Comptroller and Auditor General looking into public procurement issues in FÁS, the Tánaiste asked for a further investigation into the management and systems in FÁS to ensure that wrongdoing, if there is any, cannot be prevented from being disclosed.
If there has been any wrongdoing.
The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment also asked it to examine the corporate services aspect of that operation since 2000. This process is in place and both the chairman and the chief executive officer were anxious that it would take place to get to the bottom of any issues that need to be addressed. No one is suggesting issues should not be examined or addressed. There is a question of process and ensuring we get to the bottom of it.
The Committee of Public Accounts is engaging in its own process. The Comptroller and Auditor General has been asked to follow up on a report he compiled on the organisation. That is as it should be. That is where matters stand and we need to get it resolved as quickly as possible. The Committee of Public Accounts is coming to a conclusion in respect of its investigation. That is what accountability is about.
It is nowhere near it.
What is the Taoiseach going to do about it? Up to 10,000 people a month are losing their jobs while these revelations come out week after week. To claim the process is in place and the Committee of Public Accounts will come to a conclusion displays a massively cavalier approach from the Government. Material was sent to the committee by FÁS that had entries blacked out. I understand there is an extensive range of information coming from FÁS offices, following on from freedom of information requests. In 2005, for example, the total cost for the Science Challenge week came to €886,000, €772,000 of which was spent on advertising. How is it that persons involved can have credit cards with €76,000 limits? This is incredible.
The Taoiseach is in charge of the Government. He has quite rightly spoken about cutting out wastage of public money. This, however, is a litany of extraordinary expenditures, facilities and requirements given to this organisation at a time when we need a massive drive in re-training and upskilling.
I did not catch the Taoiseach's reply on the identity, or other words, of the person at the nail bar in West Cocoa Beach, Florida. There might be an interest in this person's identity. Obviously, I do not have any indication as to who it is.
It was the Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea.
The person was no relation to me.
It was the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin.
Did she bring her barometer?
I brought a compass.
Was it a moral compass?
No, it was a nautical compass.
What is the Taoiseach's view on a €76,000 credit limit on a credit card issued to the persons involved? Will he explain beyond what the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment said was all in the past?
The situation is that the Comptroller and Auditor General, the fraud squad and the Committee of Public Accounts are examining the organisation. Various people associated with various elements of this organisation over the past several years are beginning to spill the beans at an inordinate rate. The Taoiseach is in charge. What is he going to do about it? How can he stand over this? Action is taken in other countries in cases involving the abuse and wastage of public moneys.
I am being careful not to impugn the personal integrity of any person. However, I am concerned about what appears to be extravagant wastage, abuse of privilege and failure to account for the taxpayer's money. The Taoiseach can sit over there claiming the process is in place and we will get an answer in due course. That is not good enough; it is too cavalier an approach. The Taoiseach heads up the Government, people pay their taxes and 2,500 people are going on the unemployment list every week while these stories about wild extravagance on West Cocoa Beach in Florida emerge.
They were working on their golf handicaps.
I am not standing over any profligate or unauthorised spending. No one can stand over that. The process that is being undertaken is being conducted by the Committee of Public Accounts. The Comptroller and Auditor General has been asked to examine all this and detail the situation so that decisions can be taken on it. Obviously, there are questions to be answered. This needs to be dealt with as urgently and expeditiously as possible.
There are many questions that need to be answered.
On Deputy Enda Kenny's point about information being brought to the Committee of Public Accounts, I understand from listening to a radio interview this morning with the committee's Vice Chairman that it was agreed between the committee's legal advisers and FÁS that certain data protection issues arose as to why certain stuff was redacted. That is a matter for legal advice.
The real issue is that the truth has to be established and accountability provided for those responsible with detailed consequences arising from that. We are in the process of doing this. It is not being ignored. It is a question of having the means by which it is dealt with comprehensively and factually in fairness to the organisation concerned and the taxpayer. That is the process that is in place. The quicker it is resolved, the better. In the first instance, it is a matter for the board of FÁS to bring forward a report on any recent controversies to the Minister.
This year FÁS registered 6,000 fewer apprentices than it did two years ago. Next year, it will be worse. The number of apprentices in construction will be down from 4,500 to 1,000 while the number in the electrical trades will be down from 2,500 to 1,000. It has been hard at the best of times for a young man or woman to get an apprenticeship. It will be harder next year. Many in current apprenticeships are being told they cannot finish because of the downturn in the economy.
Apprenticeship is the core business of FÁS. Today, many young people who cannot get an apprenticeship or finish it will ask themselves what on earth were the top brass in FÁS doing looking at the US national space centre in Florida. Do we have apprentice astronauts? Were they in the nail bar trying to register apprentices for carpentry?
For ingrown toenails.
Chiropodists.
Wheelbarrows.
I do not believe the Taoiseach has any sense of the public anger at the lavish extravagance and splurging of taxpayers' moneys involved. Nor do I believe he has any sense of the significant unease that this whole episode has caused for the majority of public servants who work conscientiously and for whom this carry-on is exposing them to being scapegoated and ridiculed.
The Taoiseach is a former Minister for Labour. There are few people in this House who have the understanding of the consequences that he has of the relationship between FÁS and the parent Department and Minister. Will he deal with what we have heard over the past two days with some urgency? It is not acceptable that some process will work it out and it will all disappear into the ether again. There is much anger about this. We need to hear from the Government what action will be taken.
Will the Taoiseach agree that FÁS and its top executives would be better serving the country in dealing with the growing crisis with apprenticeships? If we do not register apprenticeships now, we will not have the trades in four years' time when hopefully we will be through the current economic difficulties. Would it not be better for FÁS top executives to stay in Ireland dealing with the apprenticeship problem rather than gallivanting around the world at the taxpayers' expense?
I understand the legitimate anger and concern that people have expressed on some of the issues brought to public attention in recent days and times regarding this organisation. I can reply to the Deputy's questions with the same forcefulness. The apprenticeship situation derives from the sectors themselves in respect of numbers taken on and the numbers which go through the system. Let us be fair to the organisation. In that core issue, the interaction between FÁS and industry has been exemplary. FÁS has been in the position to provide the training and certification necessary for the doubling of the construction industry workforce over the past number of years, from 125,000 to 250,000 people at its height. That was accommodated by FÁS and the apprenticeship programmes it conducted. In fairness to that aspect of the situation, let that be said.
With regard to the specific issues raised here, whether regulations that apply to travel and subsistence for bodies and Departments were transgressed, these are matters that must be reported on with some urgency by the chairman to the Tánaiste as a result of the revelations of recent days. That should, and will, be done.
I am explaining that an examination by the Comptroller and Auditor General of wider issues, relating to management processes and the corporate services department of the organisation, has been requested by the Tánaiste on foot of the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on public procurement issues in the organisation. I am aware of that situation and we must get to the bottom of it and have accountability. That process is in place, generally in respect of what is done by the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General and in respect of the report to the Tánaiste on these matters that will be forthcoming.
Has the Taoiseach made inquiries as to whether this type of carry-on is going on anywhere else in State agencies or across the public sector? Are board members and top executives of State bodies behaving like latter day Borgias at the taxpayers' expense anywhere else? In fairness to State agencies, those who work in them and the people who head them, some kind of inquiry should be ordered by the Taoiseach to find out if this type of carry-on is happening anywhere else.
It is all very well for the Taoiseach to say he is waiting for the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. The Taoiseach read what went on in FÁS, he heard the reports yesterday and he heard the explanation given by the chief executive of FÁS for the air fares and other expenses clocked up. Does the Taoiseach think it was excessive? Leaving aside whether rules were broken or regulations were transgressed, does he think junketing at the level conducted by FÁS is excessive? This involved expenses that, everyone in the House agrees, were incurred for items that should have been removed from the bill before making an expense claim. One certainly does not charge up some of these items to the taxpayer. Does the Taoiseach think it was excessive?
I do not believe certain items of expenditure should have been incurred. In regard to that specific issue, it is clear. We must ensure that the accountability of the organisation is such that we find the full remit of what was going on. That process is in place. That is not for the purpose of deferring the issue, it is to ensure we find the full outcome based on what was going on. I understand the Comptroller and Auditor General has been asked to examine this back to 2000, a considerable period of time.
It should go back to 1990.
That issue is in hand. I am not aware of another agency that has this issue before it but clearly Ministers should contact agencies under their remit and have the chief executives confirm that their arrangements are in compliance with whatever regulations are in place.