Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Feb 2009

Vol. 676 No. 1

Adjournment Debate.

Hospital Services.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to raise this important issue.

Most times I speak I mention Tallaght, but this is about Tallaght Hospital and other hospitals in the region and the country. I was guided by the edition of the Tallaght Echo published this morning which stated “Hospital Rocked by Further Cuts”.

I have been committed to Tallaght Hospital since the beginning. The then Minister, Deputy O'Hanlon, appointed me to the planning board of Tallaght Hospital in 1988. I was involved proudly right the way through and reappointed by different Ministers, including those of different persuasions which I took as a compliment to the community. When the hospital opened in 1998, I was a member of that board and I have remained associated with the hospital. I am proud of the hospital and the service it provides.

The hospital has had many challenges since then, particularly in recent times, and the new economic climate adds to that burden. I pay tribute to the Tallaght Hospital Action Group. I and the other three Deputies for the area, Deputy Rabbitte, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and Deputy Brian Hayes, were present at a meeting in the Plaza Hotel last night at which we discussed concerns of the hospital action group. I was aware of a statement issued by the Tallaght Hospital board yesterday complimenting the Tallaght Hospital Action Group on its work not only now, but over the years.

Tallaght Hospital has developed well over the past ten years but there are still problems and challenges. The Adelaide and Meath Hospital Dublin Incorporating the National Children's Hospital Tallaght provides both tertiary and secondary services to a population of 1.4 million people. The hospital is a provider of local, regional, supra-regional and national specialties, and over 310,000 patients are treated in the hospital annually. The board has been acting responsibly and has been working with the HSE and the Department in recent times. The HSE recently notified the hospital of its 2009 budget allocation.

This is set against a background where, unfortunately, the hospital is set to lose cancer services. This is something I regret. The hospital has a development control plan and I am delighted to note that this provides for the proposed move of the Coombe Women & Infants University Hospital to Tallaght, the new paediatric ambulatory and urgent care centre which will be located in Tallaght, the co-located private hospital, the next phase of the faculty of health sciences and what the hospital board describes as other clinical developments.

There have also been many positive developments in recent times, including the centre for cardiovascular risk in younger persons, CRYP, officially opened in 2008, a bowel screening service, which is proving very successful, and the expansion of the laboratories.

The HSE announcement yesterday is what I want to highlight tonight. People in Tallaght are very concerned. They point out that while all hospitals are subject to cuts in their budget from the HSE, the cut in Tallaght is particularly stark and has caused a great deal of shock. I want guarantees from the Minister, either tonight or otherwise, that patient care and those services will not be affected by any proposed cuts and I ask the Minister to ensure that the HSE plan takes account of this. It is important that such an assurance is given.

At the end of the day, the hospital, like every hospital in every region of the country, is about patient care. I have been a patient in Tallaght Hospital. I know what it is like to be challenged by health problems that require hospital services. I have always taken the view, with which I am sure the Acting Chairman, Deputy Johnny Brady, would agree, that a sick person who goes to any of our hospitals should be looked after properly. Media coverage of the proposed cuts to the HSE budgets mean that people are crying out for guarantees that, whatever else is cut, and I know this is a challenge, patient care is maintained. I hope the Minister of State conveys that message to the Department and to the Minister for Health and Children.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Máire Hoctor)

The key priority for the Government and the Health Service Executive in dealing with serious budgetary pressures on the health services is to minimise the effect on services for patients to the greatest degree possible. The HSE is facing financial pressures arising in a large degree from the broader economic situation, an increase in the number of medical cards and lower receipts from the health levy. These cost pressures are factors outside the HSE's management control. However, while dealing with this, the executive is also clear that it must do all in its power to control costs within the planned profile of spending over the year. The HSE board met yesterday to consider these pressures and the executive will now work intensively with the Minister and her Department to manage this situation.

We will have to deliver more for a given level of resources and this will require the co-operation of all in the health sector. A key objective for the Health Service Executive in 2009 is to reduce overall costs to manage the delivery of activity targets as outlined and agreed in its national service plan for 2009. In this regard, hospital budgets across the network have been allocated in accordance with the overall budget available to the National Hospitals Office.

The profile of planned activity levels in the national service plan is designed to facilitate the cost reductions through the introduction of a number of expenditure control measures. In particular, there will be an emphasis throughout 2009 on the conversion of inpatient to day case activity, reducing the average length of stay for patients and improving the operational efficiency of outpatient departments.

With regard to Tallaght Hospital, the hospital is in discussion with the HSE in relation to its 2009 service plan. The shared objective is to ensure the highest quantum of service is provided within available financing and to ensure the service plan is delivered without impacting on front-line services. This approach is being replicated across each hospital network.

Human Trafficking.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The case I want to raise can best be outlined by the summary provided by Ruhama. Anyone who knows about victims of the sex industry is aware of the work of Ruhama. The organisation has outlined in summary the case of Edith Orumwenes and its concerns about whether basic minimum standards of protection and assistance to presumed victims of human trafficking are being adhered to in Ireland:

In early November, Edith Orumwenes was arrested in Castlebar for not having identification papers. We first met Edith in early December in the Dóchas Centre in Dublin, we assessed her under the UN Protocol on Human Trafficking and we identified her as a presumed victim of human trafficking.

The indicators of human trafficking found in this woman's case were clear: the country of origin and particular state (Edo, where 80% victims of sex trafficking victims in Nigeria come according to UN statistics). Her account of how she was recruited was credible — her position of vulnerability, poverty, lack of education, she had never travelled abroad before and she was fleeing a forced marriage. The signs of trauma — high level of anxiety, emotionally upset, difficulty sleeping and no documentation — were all present.

Ruhama is very much aware of the modus operandi of the sex trade in Ireland and how traffickers are supplying the sex industry with women. Edith’s version of what happened her was consistent; she told us about how her original trafficker handed her over to pimps, how she was photographed for the Internet, given a mobile phone, and told what prices to charge.

Following our identification of her as a presumed victim of trafficking, we referred her to the superintendent in GNIB for consideration under the recovery and reflection period. We also asked that the liaison officer from GNIB would come and meet with Edith in the Dóchas Centre as we believed they had more knowledge and experience of assessing victims of trafficking than the local gardaí in Mayo. However after two requests the GNIB liaison officer was not sent to meet with Edith and the assessment of Edith as a presumed victim of sex trafficking was left to the gardaí in Castlebar.

From my understanding, they had no idea what to look for in a trafficking case.

From our first-hand experience of attending the court hearings, we could see that when this woman presented as irritable or unable to meet the demands of the criminal justice system she was labelled "uncooperative" and was penalised for this. In our opinion she was clearly viewed as a criminal and not as a potential victim.

Edith was expected to cooperate with gardaí in Castlebar after she had spent long hours travelling from Dublin and attending the court hearing; she was often physically and emotionally exhausted. On one occasion she spent up to 20 hours from the time she left the Dóchas Centre until her return, placing further strain on her already fragile emotional state. This does not suggest a concern for her welfare. We are concerned to have since been told that on all occasions Edith received very little food or drink.

It is well established that when people are in trauma they suffer from memory loss and disorientation. I quote from the IOM manual on dealing with victims of human trafficking which is used by the Garda training: "Even if an individual lies about or refuses to disclose certain information on occasions, or forgets or changes parts of her/his story, this is not a reason to discredit other information they have provided or to determine the individual is untrustworthy." This accepted norm was clearly not applied in this case. At Ruhama we found Edith to be cooperative, polite and forthcoming with information.

Best practice recommends the importance of helping the presumed victim to feel safe and that she is approached in a manner that builds trust. This is where the reflection and recovery stage is important in the process. This did not happen in Edith's case; she was incarcerated despite disclosing early in the investigation that she was forced into prostitution. This did not inspire confidence or trust on her side, or create an environment conducive to cooperation.

However she was cooperative with the gardaí. She provided an account of her movements in Ireland, she surrendered her mobile phone, which was not used in the court case against her, she provided information on her movements in Ireland during numerous interviews, she pointed out the house in which she alleges she was held captive and she watched CCTV and made positive identification.

We believe the screening of a presumed victim of human trafficking was not adequately carried out by the gardaí in Mayo because of their lack of experience and knowledge on the issue. Ruhama workers tried talking to local gardaí about the best practice guidelines for working with victims of sex trafficking but they told her that they had been advised by GNIB that they could keep her in prison for months while trying to establish her true identity.

This is no way to treat a victim who has more than likely been trafficked by a gang for profit from a poor region of Nigeria into Ireland to feed the sex industry, where she was probably abused. She has been treated as an illegal immigrant, without identification and put in prison for months.

There was a debate on human trafficking in this House when the Minister for Finance was Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. We passed important legislation in this area but, if anything, our attitude to likely victims of human trafficking is moving in the wrong direction.

Minister of State at the Department of Social and Family Affairs (Deputy Máire Hoctor)

On behalf of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I thank the Deputy for raising this matter on the Adjournment. I assure him that I share his concern and that of all right thinking people that the heinous crime of human trafficking should be tackled effectively and that suspected victims of human trafficking should be helped and treated appropriately.

The Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act 2008 has been fully operational since 7 June 2008. This legislation criminalises the trafficking in children and adults for the purposes of their sexual or labour exploitation, or the removal of their organs. It also makes it an offence to sell or offer for sale, or to purchase or offer to purchase, any person for any purpose. Penalties of up to life imprisonment apply in respect of these offences. It is not a defence for the trafficker to argue that the person consented to the commission of any of the acts.

It is also an offence under this Act for a person to solicit a trafficked person for the purposes of prostitution where the person soliciting knows, or has reasonable grounds for believing, that the person has been trafficked. The soliciting can take place anywhere, in public or in private. Any person who accepts or agrees to accept any kind of payment in exchange for the prostitution of the trafficked person will also commit an offence. Fines of up to €5,000 and 12 months' imprisonment apply on summary conviction, and an unlimited fine and up to five years' imprisonment if a person is convicted on indictment.

In addition to this comprehensive criminal legislation and also with effect from 7 June 2008, recovery and reflection periods of 45 days — which were recently increased to 60 days — were introduced for potential victims of trafficking. Where the victim is willing to assist the Garda Síochána with an investigation or prosecution concerning the alleged trafficking, periods of temporary residency permission of up to six months renewable were introduced. The recovery and reflection and temporary residence provisions were introduced on an administrative basis, pending the enactment of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill later this year, when such provisions will be put on a statutory basis.

As well as these legislative measures, the Government has introduced a number of administrative measures to ensure an effective and comprehensive response to human trafficking. An interdepartmental high level group with representatives from key Departments has been established to recommend the most appropriate and effective policy responses to human trafficking to the Minister. An anti-human trafficking unit has been established in the Department to ensure that the State response to trafficking in human beings is co-ordinated, comprehensive and holistic. A key element of this strategy is the development of a national action plan to prevent and tackle trafficking in human beings to be approved by the high level group and submitted to the Minister.

From the beginning, the Government has adopted a multidisciplinary partnership approach to tackling human trafficking in Ireland. Representatives from the interdepartmental high level group and the anti-human trafficking unit engage with NGOs and international organisations in a round table forum held about every four months. In addition, five interdisciplinary working groups — made up of representatives from the relevant Government agencies, NGOs and international organisations — are working to progress matters on a range of issues. These include the development of a national referral mechanism, awareness raising and training, child trafficking, labour exploitation issues and sexual exploitation issues, and in turn to report to the high level group. In total, 34 different State, international and non-governmental organisations are involved in this process.

The Garda Síochána has placed particular importance on ensuring that its members receive training which will equip them to tackle the phenomenon of human trafficking. Some 250 members of the Garda Síochána, including members from each Garda division, have completed a continuous professional development training course entitled "Tackling Trafficking in Human Beings: Prevention, Protection and Prosecution". In addition, 520 probationer gardaí have received awareness training as part of their final phase of training.

It is not appropriate for the Minister to comment on the outcome of a court case in which the person referred to by the Deputy was involved.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It certainly is.

Deputy Máire Hoctor

Equally it is not appropriate to comment in detail on the facts of any individual case, involving as it would disclosing sensitive personal information. I can say that the Minister has been informed by the Garda Síochána that in this case, as in every case of potential human trafficking made known to them, all the information was carefully assessed in determining if there were reasonable grounds for believing the woman in question was a victim of human trafficking under sections 2 or 4 of the Criminal Law (Human Trafficking) Act. As with any case, the Garda Síochána will examine any new information that comes to light.

To date, two persons have been granted the 60-day recovery and reflection period and one of these has been granted a six-month temporary residence. The Garda Síochána is also actively investigating a number of other cases. It is the Minister's policy and that of the Garda Síochána that no person who is potentially a victim of human trafficking will be removed from the State before that investigation is complete.

Deputy Simon Coveney

They will be put in prison instead.

Deputy Máire Hoctor

The Department will continue to develop and adapt procedures in light of experience in dealing with such cases. The Department recognises the valuable contribution being made by both State and non-governmental organisations in tackling, together, the scourge of human trafficking.

Asgard II.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

I wish to share my time with Deputy Coveney.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Johnny Brady)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Jimmy Deenihan

Asgard II sank off the French coast in the Bay of Biscay on 11 September 2008. In general, in the case of sinkings, it is imperative that salvage operations begin immediately, subject only to weather conditions, to ensure that as little damage as possible occurs due to sea conditions and, more particularly, the corrosive effects of salt water. However, in this instance this did not happen. It is unfortunate that the Minister is not in the House this evening, but I think that from the very beginning a decision was made that the Asgard would not be salvaged.

Allianz insurers invited three salvage companies to submit quotations for raising the vessel from the sea floor and set a deadline of 17 October for the receipt of offers. I understand that at the request of one of the salvage companies, this deadline was extended by two weeks to 31 October, during which period a suitable weather window for the salvage operation presented itself. In salvage operations suitable weather windows are essential but, unfortunately, they do not present themselves to order. The time estimated for the salvage operation is approximately four weeks, which includes mobilisation and demobilisation for placing, de-rigging and removal of lifting equipment on and off the site. This opportunity was not taken, however, and it is my opinion that a decision was made very early on that the whole operation would not start immediately.

Many people are very disappointed with the Minister's decision as well as with his prevarication and procrastination. He accused me in the House of trying to exaggerate the position and being disingenuous when I said the matter was urgent. It is obvious that I was right, however. The master of the Asgard, Captain Colm Newport, told The Irish Times yesterday that he was very disappointed with the Minister’s decision. He said he was still in discussions with a Dutch company about its salvage. He has questioned the competence of the advice given to the Minister, Deputy O’Dea, on the difficulties of raising the hull. If the master of the ship, Captain Newport, who is a highly respected individual, said that, it raises major doubts about the advice the Minister received as well as the Minister’s judgment.

Captain Newport says the vessel can be raised and treated pending its full restoration. He believes the State has an obligation to remove the ship from French waters. We had the same response from the Asgard’s crew who sent a letter to all of us saying they were so distressed by this decision. The Minister is not here but perhaps my remarks can be conveyed to him. He should at least present us with the report on why the ship was not raised. Deputy Coveney will no doubt mention a proposal he presented to the Minister, but the Minister did not even consult us about it.

Deputy Simon Coveney

This matter has been handled appallingly. This vessel, which is owned by the Irish State, sank almost six months ago. Thank God no one lost their life because the crew managed to get off the vessel before it sank. The vessel has a significant history. It is not a yachting issue for people who like to go sailing or send their children sailing. The Asgard’s role is far more fundamental. Some 10,000 people from all sorts of backgrounds have been on the vessel during sail training programmes of various types that were highly valuable. I have personal experience of the positive effects that sail training can have on people who need direction and guidance. The Asgard fulfilled that role, but it is now at the bottom of the sea. I spoke to the Minister last week and gave him a proposal that was put together by a series of people who wanted to compile an accurate costing for the vessel’s refurbishment if it was refloated. Some €3.8 million is available to the Minister in insurance attached to the Asgard II. It will cost approximately €1.5 million to €2 million to raise the vessel, which leaves in or around €2 million to refurbish it.

Deputy Deenihan and I told the Minister that if he is going to leave the ship at the bottom of the sea, he should at least give us a written consideration as to why he is doing so, backed up with evidence and costings. We do not want the opinions of the board of Coiste an Asgard which made a recommendation to the Minister, having discussed the issue at length. I want to see hard evidence before I will support any proposal to leave this vessel at the bottom of the sea.

Neither will I accept that the vessel cannot be raised and refurbished at a cost that is potentially much less than the Minister's proposal to build a new vessel, a steel replica of Asgard II. Such a proposal will cost between €5 million and €7 million which is not an option in the current economic environment. The Government knows that. This is a spin job to get people to accept that the boat will remain at the bottom of the sea. The Government does not want to raise the vessel and does not want the risks associated with that. It promises to build a replica at some stage in the future but I do not believe it will.

The least the Opposition can expect is that the Minister will provide a written report outlining the basis of the recommendation to leave this vessel, which has already been valued at €4 million, unsalvaged. There is also an investigative responsibility on the Minister to discover why the ship sank which will not be established unless it is raised.

Deputy Máire Hoctor

I am taking this Adjournment matter on behalf of my colleague the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea. I thank Deputies Deenihan and Coveney for raising the matter.

Yesterday, the Minister announced he had accepted the recommendation from the board of Coiste An Asgard on the possibility of salvaging the sail-training vessel Asgard II. The board’s unanimous recommendation was that a salvage operation should not be pursued any further and the Minister concurred with this view having carefully considered its report to him.

Spending approximately €2 million on a salvage effort, the outcome of which would be uncertain, cannot be afforded at this time. A real risk exists whereby more than €2 million could be expended on a salvage effort that proves unsuccessful or, following which, the vessel is found to be damaged beyond repair. Until the vessel is salvaged, it would not be possible to assess whether it can be restored and the cost of doing so. Clearly, the greater the damage, the higher the cost of restoration.

Asgard II is a 30-year old wooden vessel that would have faced ever-increasing maintenance costs. The board was of the opinion that even after full restoration, the vessel might have ongoing maintenance problems. In addition, the possibility of increased regulatory requirements by the Department of Transport could add substantially to the cost of restoration. The board also took into account that parents of potential trainees may be reluctant to allow their children to sail on a vessel that had sunk.

While the name Asgard has been associated with two important vessels, it is also about sail-training and introducing young people to the experience of sailing. The Minister's priority is to ensure the continuation of the sail-training scheme. The Minister accepted the board's recommendation to initiate planning for the procurement of a new steel hulled vessel, similar in design to Asgard II . A steel hulled vessel would be less expensive to build and maintain than a wooden hulled vessel. It is also hoped that the future Asgard III would have facilities to cater for persons with physical disabilities, which the Asgard II could not.

The Minister knows it was a difficult conclusion for the board to reach, but it is one he accepts as being right and sensible. The costs and risks involved in attempting to salvage and restore Asgard II are too great. There is no doubt it was an outstanding sail-training vessel, held in the highest regard both at home and abroad. She was an excellent ambassador for the country for 30 years. However, the Minister believes the measures outlined for a new vessel will ensure sail-training in this country continues.

Export Credit Insurance.

Deputy David Stanton

Last night I met the representative of a large exporting company in Munster who was extremely concerned at what he described as the drying up of export credit insurance. Export credit insurance works in the following way. If a company is exporting products abroad, while it may not be paid straight away, its payment is insured.

Export credit insurance, however, is drying up making it difficult for companies to export their products. The Irish Exporters Association is concerned that credit insurance underwriters have cancelled or substantially reduced the credit cover extended to exporters in Ireland. It has pointed out that this has put the €9 billion of exports covered by credit insurance on a rolling six-month basis, and a further €10 billion of home-based trading covered by credit insurance. It has described it as a crisis, affecting the supply of locally produced goods and services to exporting companies.

France, the UK, Belgium and Portugal have put in place state-backed export credit insurance schemes in recent weeks. The Irish Exporters Association and the IFA have come together to press the Government to bring forward a similar scheme. It is important this is done soon as exporting companies are under intense pressure.

I am pleased the Minister of State with responsibility for this area, Deputy McGuinness, is present in the Chamber. I look forward to his reply and hope he will inform the House the Government will move quickly on this matter. The survival of exporting companies is at stake. We know of the perilous state of the economy and how important it is to support companies to trade out of this situation. If the export credit insurance issue can be resolved, it will assist these companies. The representative of the large company I met last night told me that if this is not sorted soon, his company will be in serious trouble.

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy John McGuinness)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter, with which I am familiar and which is of great concern to the exporters and companies he mentioned.

Since the State withdrew from the provision of export credit insurance in 1998, exporters have been able to avail of such insurance on the open market as commercial operators made such cover easily available and there was significant take-up of policies by exporters. However, there appears to be evidence that in recent months insurers have been reducing or withdrawing cover and that, therefore, there has been some market failure in this sector. In recent weeks, this lack of affordable credit insurance, including export credit insurance, has been strongly highlighted by exporters as presenting a significant problem. As a result, business groups have requested that the State assist in the provision of such insurance cover. Some weeks ago the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment met business representatives and listened to their concerns on this issue. Like the Deputy, I also met groups and individual representatives in respect of this matter.

This problem is not unique to Ireland. The underlying reasons are linked to the global financial crisis and the lack of credit generally available. Other EU member states are facing similar problems and we have been engaging with them and the European Commission with a view to helping our understanding of the issues so that we can develop a fast and informed response.

While the concept of State support should be considered, it is important, in the current difficult financial environment, that in the first instance we establish the facts of the matter by engaging with the key stakeholders, including the insurance providers, before committing the State to taking any initiatives in this regard. In bringing forward proposals in this area, it is important that the State should not be left exposed to unacceptably high risks. The Deputy will appreciate that a key requirement of any such initiative would be that it should be designed to be self-financing and time limited. In addition, a financial cap to limit the exposure of the State in the event of significant losses developing would have to be imposed.

To properly assess what is an extremely complex issue, the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment has asked Forfás and Enterprise Ireland, working closely with officials in the Department, to expedite a detailed analysis of the position. This work is well advanced and a report will be ready for her consideration by the end of the month.

I am sure the Deputy appreciates that a thorough analysis of the facts must be undertaken in the assessment to which I refer. Early indications are that in light of the current economic uncertainty, with rapidly increasing default rates, the issue is unlikely to be as simple and cost-neutral as portrayed by some business interests. Analysis to date of one particular proposal has pointed to the State being exposed to very high costs, both in terms of default payments and administration. In addition to potentially significant operating costs, a new administrative structure would need to be devised, legislation may be necessary and EU state aid rules may be an issue. The actual cost-benefit of this type of scheme must also be fully assessed.

The impression has been given that most other EU and OECD states are operating short-term export credit insurance schemes and that Ireland is, therefore, very much alone in not doing so. However, the vast majority of schemes operated by these other countries are in respect of longer-term strategic capital and infrastructural projects, and usually only cover very limited sectors. It is not correct to state that the type of short-term insurance scheme being sought by Irish exporters is generally available in our competitor countries.

A number of other OECD countries are approaching the issue from an alternative perspective through the banking system. Such initiatives have focused on the provision of some form of credit or working capital guarantees for exporting companies. Forfás, Enterprise Ireland and my Department, in co-operation with the Department of Finance, are examining a number of these initiatives. Should this examination prove that a new insurance scheme is not realistic or feasible for a variety of strategic reasons, including costs, both to companies and the State, and effectiveness, it may be appropriate to look at securing alternative assistance to credit-worthy trading companies through the banking system, which already provides a number of trade finance alternatives to credit insurance. This could be considered in the context of the assistance being provided by the Government to the banking sector.

I assure the Deputy that we are working quickly and thoroughly to establish the facts and set out the options. The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment intends to bring this matter to the Cabinet as a priority next month when she has received and considered the report currently under preparation. A final decision will then be made.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.20 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 25 February 2009.