Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Feb 2009

Vol. 676 No. 3

Other Questions.

Disadvantaged Status.

Terence Flanagan

Question:

6 Deputy Terence Flanagan asked the Minister for Education and Science the reason he has cut the non-DEIS schools programme that has been in place in the Clonmany parish of County Donegal since 2001, in view of the fact that in May 2007 the four schools received a written commitment from his Department that the programme would remain in place until the conclusion of the DEIS; his views on reversing this cut in view of its fundamental importance to the schools in question; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8048/09]

Deputy Seán Haughey

The schools to which the Deputy refers are among those that were judged by an independent identification process in 2005 not to have a sufficient level of disadvantage among their pupils to warrant their inclusion in DEIS, the action plan for educational inclusion. The next identification process is scheduled to be held at the end of the current DEIS programme, which runs from 2005 to 2010. There will not be an opportunity before this for inclusion in the current DEIS programme of supports.

A review mechanism was put in place in 2006 to address the concerns of schools that did not qualify for inclusion in DEIS, but which regarded themselves as having a level of disadvantage that was of a scale sufficient to warrant their inclusion in the programme. The review process operated under the direction of an independent person, charged with ensuring that all relevant identification procedures were properly followed in the case of schools applying for a review. The review was concluded and the results were notified to schools in August 2006. The four schools in question applied for a review at that time but they were unsuccessful in qualifying for inclusion in DEIS.

The schools involved retained resources, including additional capitation and a shared rural co-ordinator post under pre-existing schemes and programmes for addressing educational disadvantage. Following the introduction of DEIS, a commitment was given, as a concessionary measure to non-DEIS schools in receipt of such resources, that they would retain a level of support in line with their size and disadvantage levels for the duration of the DEIS initiative.

It is appreciated that the discontinuation of these resources will impact on the schools concerned. However given the current volatile and challenging economic climate, difficult decisions had to be made in the 2009 budget in order to contain public sector spending. One of these decisions was to advance the withdrawal of such supports from non-DEIS schools to the beginning of the next school year.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

The main focus of social inclusion measures will be to retain resources in DEIS schools. There is a need to focus targeted resources on the schools in most need and this approach is in line with the broad thrust of the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General. These are set out in his report on primary disadvantage in 2006, which recommended that my Department should focus its educational disadvantage measures on those schools serving the most disadvantaged communities.

Deputy Joe McHugh

Deputy Barrett spoke earlier about an antiquated aspect of the educational system. There are positive aspects to this scheme. It was administered by one person and the total administration cost was about €25,000 per year. We are concerned here with the north Inishowen area of Donegal. In my constituency of Donegal North East, 53% of young males leave school at 16. That compares with a national figure of 35%. That is a massive disparity.

In this scheme, four national schools came together to provide support and capacity between parents and teachers, started engaging with communities, and increased the level of student participation at national school. The results are transparent and are there to see. This has been an outstanding success since 2001.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask a question.

Deputy Joe McHugh

In light of this outstanding success and in light of the fact that this is a particular geographical, sensitive area in terms of early school leaving, should we not be evaluating the good schemes and looking at their benefits? This would be a better approach than imposing a rigid rule for the whole country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is now making a Second Stage speech.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I appreciate that the Deputy is making a particular case for schools in his constituency, but also raising general issues. Not every school in the country should be classified as disadvantaged. These particular resources were given on a concessionary basis. All the evidence shows that we need to focus our resources to combat disadvantage. A report by the Comptroller and Auditor General on primary disadvantage in 2006 also recommended this. If a concession was made for those schools in Donegal, then other schools would feel aggrieved because they would be losing resources.

I accept that these provisions were working well, but due to the difficult financial situation, and because of the concessionary nature of these supports, it was necessary to bring forward their withdrawal. Ultimately, we need to focus our resources on combatting disadvantage.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I wish to apologise, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I am new to the House and I did not know the difference between a Second Stage speech and a priority question.

Deputy Brian Hayes

He will learn pretty quickly.

Deputy Joe McHugh

Does the Minister of State accept that the 53% statistic is acceptable? Does he accept that it is wrong for his party to give a written commitment to these four schools in 2007 that the scheme would stay in place, and then to renege on that commitment?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister of State is only responsible for his ministerial duties here.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I must re-iterate that these resources remained in place on a concessionary basis. There are other things happening in the Department, such as home school community liaisons, the schools completion programme, the national education welfare board and so on. These and other developments in the Department can deal with the problems to which the Deputy referred.

Schools Building Projects.

Dinny McGinley

Question:

7 D’fhiafraigh Deputy Dinny McGinley den Aire Oideachais agus Eolaíochta cad é an dul chun cinn atá déanta maidir le halla spóirt a chur ar fáil do Phobalscoil Ghaoth Dobhair; agus an ndéanfaidh sé ráiteas ina thaobh. [7206/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

The project for Pobalscoil Ghaoth Dobhair involves the provision of a new physical education hall and is at an advanced stage of architectural planning. This project has a band rating of 4.1 under my Department's prioritisation criteria for major capital projects. Once it has been approved to go to construction, it is intended that my Department will be co-financing the project with the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. There has also been local community fundraising for the project. The next step in the process will be for this project to be approved to proceed to tender and construction when funding allows.

Projects are selected for inclusion in the school building and modernisation programme on the basis of priority of need. This is reflected in the band rating assigned to a project. There are four band ratings, of which band one is the highest and band four the lowest. Band one projects, for example, include the provision of buildings where none currently exists but there is a high demand for pupil places, while a band four project makes provision for desirable but not necessarily urgent or essential facilities, such as a library or new sports hall.

Other factors taken into account in the selection of projects include the stage of progression through the architectural design process, the need to achieve an appropriate balance of capital expenditure on a multi-annual basis between primary and post-primary building projects, the need to ensure adequate funding is available for the purchase of sites for key projects and the need to provide additional school places in rapidly developing areas to meet increasing demand while at the same time balancing this with the need to maintain investment in the improvement of existing school buildings.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

I thank the Minister for what he has said so far. The Minister has been in charge of that Department only for the last number of months and I wonder if he is aware that this campaign for a sports hall for Pobalscoil Ghaoth Dobhair has been going on for 25 years, since I came into this House. I declare a personal interest in the school in that I am a long-serving member of the board of management. If we added up the cost of all the parlimentary questions and Adjournment debates regarding Phobalscoil Ghaoth Dobhair over these past 25 years, there would be more than enough money to provide a sports hall. Month after month, year after year there has been question after question by Deputies from every side of the House.

Is the Minister aware that this is an all-Irish school with more than 300 pupils and that every other community and second level school in Donegal has a sports hall, and some have two? Is the Minister aware that according to a national survey carried out by a national newspaper in recent months 100% of pupils leaving this school go to third level education and it is ranked tenth in the country? It is a great school and achieves all that despite the fact that it has no sports hall.

I have heard the Minister's answer today more times than there are beads on a rosary. This is a unique school. The Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs is providing almost €500,000 and there is a local contribution of over €100,000. We seek only €700,000, less than 1% of the Minister's entire capital allocation this year for school building. I ask the Minister to do the right thing. He has a grá for the Gaeilge. He comes from Cullen. This is an all-Irish school, and if the Minister does nothing else, will he allow it this year?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

Both Deputy McGinley and I have served here for a long time and flattery will get one everywhere most times but I fear Deputy Brian Hayes will say, "Band four", and I would be political if I gave the go-ahead for this project. I am very conscious that this project has the involvement of the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, which is prepared to provide 40% of the cost, plus €100,000 from the local community. While I do not have funding in 2009, I will liaise with the Deputy and others to see what we can do in the future. It is a very desirable project, I am aware that the school has an outstanding output and I will see what can be done in the Estimates for 2010 but, unfortunately, I do not have the resources to do it this year.

Deputy Brian Hayes

With Deputy McGinley I had the opportunity to visit the school recently on my travels to County Donegal. Would the Minister consider visiting the school? I attest to the quality of the education there in a very peripheral part of the country. Would he at least meet a delegation from the school over the coming months to see what progress can be made over the next while? It is a very worthy project.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

Yes, I am due to visit Mayo and Donegal in the next month or so and will ensure that school is put on my itinerary.

Deputy Dinny McGinley

Beidh fáilte roimh an Aire.

Pupil-Teacher Ratio.

Bernard J. Durkan

Question:

8 Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Education and Science if he has sought or received information from the various primary and post-primary schools here which are expected to be affected negatively in the course of the school year by the budgetary cuts announced in budget 2009 and thereafter; if he has ascertained whether teacher job losses are expected to affect some schools to a greater extent than others; if he has issued instructions or guidelines as to the way this might be managed; if his attention has been drawn to the curtailment of classes or other negative impacts on the curriculum or deterioration in the pupil-teacher ratio; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7890/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

I have consistently said the 2009 budget required difficult choices to be made across all areas of public expenditure. These decisions were made to control public expenditure and to ensure sustainability in the long run. In this respect education, while protected to a much greater extent than most other areas of public expenditure, could not be totally spared. At the time of the budget I set out the likely impact of the various measures including the projected net impact on teacher numbers in primary and post-primary schools, which was estimated at a loss of 200 posts in each sector. The budget measures will impact on individual schools in different ways depending on whether enrolment is rising or declining and the degree to which any one school has more teachers than it is entitled to under the allocation processes. Across the school system generally there will of course be some impact on class sizes and at post-primary level the changes may impact on the capacity of individual schools to offer as wide a range of subject choices as heretofore.

In terms of the position at individual school level the key factor for determining the level of resources provided by my Department is the pupil enrolment at 30 September 2008. The annual process of seeking this enrolment data from schools took place in the autumn and the data have since been received and processed in my Department enabling the commencement of the processes by which teaching resources are allocated to schools for next September.

My Department has written to the primary schools that are projected to have a net loss or gain in classroom teaching posts in September 2009. As part of my efforts to ensure that relevant information is openly available to the public, detailed information on the opening position for primary schools is published on my Department's website. This provisional list sets out the details on individual schools that, taken collectively, are projected to gain 128 posts and to lose 382 posts, a net reduction of 254 posts. It is my intention to have this information updated and ultimately to set out the final position when the allocation processes are completed.

Initial allocation letters have also issued to post primary schools and vocational educational committees. All these allocations, primary and post-primary, are provisional and reflect the initial allocation position. The final position for any one school will depend on a number of other factors such as the allocation of support teachers, additional posts for schools that are developing rapidly and posts allocated as a result of the appeals processes.

The operation of redeployment arrangements also impacts on the final position, as a teacher can remain in his or her existing school where a suitable redeployment position does not exist. The final staffing position for all schools will therefore not be known until the autumn. At that stage the allocation process will be fully completed for mainstream classroom teachers and any appeals to the staffing appeals board will have been considered. The appellate process is particularly relevant at post-primary level where any specific curricular needs of the school concerned are considered. Also at post-primary level there is no effective system-wide redeployment scheme and this can mean that schools retain teachers, though over quota.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Just after the budget the Minister told the House the net effect would be the loss of 200 teachers. He is now telling the House that the net effect on mainstream teachers will be 254. Is that not a fact? Is that only a minimal figure because it does not consider the reduction in English language support, special needs and home-school community liaison teachers? There will be 1,000 redundancies in the primary sector this year when one takes the totality of those cuts across the sectors. Will the Minister comment on that? Earlier I asked the Minister if he can give a categorical assurance to the House that there will be no further cutbacks in education this year in the primary and post-primary sectors and I would like to hear his views on that.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

I still hold to the claim that 200 posts will go in the primary sector. All the indications my Department and I have suggest that the net effect will be that 1,100 teachers will be taken out and demographics will show that 900 teachers will come into the system. I might go through with the Deputy the various processes involved before we can come to the final result. We will not know the absolute figures until some time in October 2009 because, as the Deputy knows, the figures that went out this week are provisional and there is the appeals process. There are other posts to be allocated. Resource posts are allocated on an annual basis by application. There will be approximately 350 developing area posts. Many other factors must be examined and will impact on the final result. My officials and I are still happy that the net effect will be an overall reduction of 200 posts in the primary sector.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Only in the mainstream.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

In the primary sector.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is only in the mainstream.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

No, overall.

Deputy Brian Hayes

This is interesting. Has the Minister included in that figure, for example, English language support teachers, the loss of home-school-community liaison teachers and his decision on the suppression of the 128 classes on special needs?

On the other question I asked, could he bring some finality to this? Can he give the House a categorical reassurance that there will be no further cutbacks this year in the primary and post-primary sectors? I have asked that questions three times.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

He could ask it 30 times.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

In the current situation, I will not make any prognosis on what might happen. As of now, the budget position stands in terms of the funding available to me. If the economy deteriorates further, I am not sure what impact that will have. Please do not hold me to making prognoses. On foot of the information available and on the basis of the budget allocation given to me, I do not envisage any changes at this point in time.

My Department's estimates are calculated on the basis that approximately 900 additional posts will be needed in primary schools in September next due to demographics and the projected growth in provision for children with special education needs in schools. That estimate is based on a reduction of 1,100 posts. These will come from a change made to the basic staffing schedule, the reduction in the number of language support teachers, the adherence to the allocation arrangements associated with children with special education needs and the withdrawal of teacher posts which have been historically provided under previous disadvantaged schemes to non-DEIS schools. We still maintain that there will be a reduction of 200 posts and the issues Deputy Hayes raised have been factored in.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Could the Minister inform the House of comments he made about the English language support teachers? I understand he will issue a circular to schools setting out a process through which they will know exactly how many will be lost. He stated at budget time that he would consider on a case-by-case basis the number of English language support teachers. This is an issue of considerable concern in schools.

Am I correct that there is a redeployment scheme in the primary sector but there is no such scheme in post-primary education? The Minister is trying to negotiate a redeployment scheme, but with no agreement on such a scheme, how can he possibly implement the loss of 200 posts in post-primary education?

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

On language support, I am conscious that certain schools have taken in a high number of non-Irish nationals and that in no way should we penalise those schools. We have gone back to pre-2007 levels of language support and, as it were, cut it to two language support teachers, but where schools can show a high incidence of non-nationals who require language support, the Department will look at it.

A circular letter on language support is to go out to all the schools indicating how they might qualify for additional language support. The Department is working on that circular. I indicated today that I hoped I would be in a position to issue that circular within the next two weeks and I will try to hold to that.

Using the primary school panel we can move teachers on from one school to another——

Deputy Brian Hayes

Redeploy.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

——provided they are within 45 km of each other. When we were factoring in a loss of only 200 posts at second level, we took account of the fact that we would not be able to redeploy teachers in that sector. That is why I am anxious that we proceed with redeployment issues. We reckon there are approximately 200 teachers surplus within the second level system who are not being moved on and who could be assigned to other schools that need their professionalism. This is in the interests of everybody. If the redeployment scheme could be negotiated and finalised, we would be in a position to redeploy those teachers.

Adult Education.

Michael D. Higgins

Question:

9 Deputy Michael D. Higgins asked the Minister for Education and Science the steps he is taking to increase the number of places available in further education institutions in order to retrain and upskill the increasingly unemployed workforce; if he will re-prioritise funding in his departmental budget towards providing courses, particularly in the further education sector, towards this aim; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7924/09]

Deputy Seán Haughey

Over the past number of years the Government has prioritised a major expansion of opportunities in adult and further education. Between 2002 and 2008, expenditure on these areas increased by 60%, from €256 million to €414 million. In terms of extending opportunity, this increased expenditure meant that, in 2008, over 49,000 places were provided in further education courses compared to almost 43,000 places in 2002.

Budget 2009 required difficult choices to be made across all areas of public expenditure in order to control expenditure and ensure sustainability in the long term. While the provision for further and adult education in 2009 shows a small increase on the outturn for 2008, nevertheless it will require very careful management of available resources. Given the overall financial constraints and the various competing demands across the education sector, it is not possible to re-prioritise funding for the further education sector from within the existing budget for the Department of Education and Science.

However, my Department, in conjunction with the Departments of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Social and Family Affairs and Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, is working as a matter of urgency to identify innovative and creative ways to maximise provision and enhance effectiveness. My Department is also working closely with all the stakeholders and providers in the further and adult education sector in order to address the retraining and upskilling needs of the workforce.

As part of our efforts in this regard, my Department and representatives of the Irish Vocational Education Association and Institutes of Technology Ireland participate in the upskilling co-ordination group chaired by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. My Department is also liaising with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment with a view to improving the co-ordination of our efforts and facilitating better co-operation and collaboration at local and regional level among the relevant education and training providers.

The increase in unemployment brings with it many challenges, including that of retraining and upskilling. In order to address these challenges in this difficult financial situation, we must continue to target and prioritise our resources to maximum effect across the education sector. I am confident that by working closely with other Departments and agencies we can maximise the impact of our collective endeavours in meeting the challenges presented by the current economic situation.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the Minister of State. I am not so sure that the reply would be different if we were in the middle of a boom.

There was a good article by Professor Tom Collins in the education supplement of The Irish Times recently about the existing spare capacity within the institutes of technology, IT, and vocational education committee, VEC, sectors. While the Minister of State has given me a standard departmental reply, for which he is not necessarily responsible because he did not write it, would he agree that we need to respond more proactively to the cascade of skilled people out of secure employment and into unemployment, which is unprecedented?

If I may make this question supplementary to Question No. 20, which is about the extra places that FÁS has been mandated to obtain, the Minister of State will not get part of the FÁS budget out of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment but I ask him to enter into negotiations to see whether the spend that FÁS will put into the private sector for contractors could be directed into the VEC and IT sectors.

There is spare capacity. Professor Tom Collins speaks of it and anecdotal discussions with many of the ITs will tell the Minister of State that many course places are not taken up. I am trying to get a new kind of approach, above and beyond the traditional one to which the Minister of State referred which has been victim of a certain cutback.

Deputy Seán Haughey

I will take the last part of Deputy Quinn's question on the 51,000 additional FÁS places first. These additional places are being provided by FÁS from within existing resources. In delivering these places FÁS will, in addition to its own delivery of courses, contract with other bodies for provision of relevant courses. It would be open to VECs and institutes of technology to bid for the provision of appropriate courses. All of these organisations are working together at national and local level to ensure both the education and the training sectors respond in an optimum way to the situation we are currently facing. FÁS and the Irish Vocational Education Association are liaising on the matter. I accept the Irish Vocational Education Association is making similar points to the Deputy.

I do not accept that I gave a standard reply but outlined that the Government attaches the greatest urgency to this situation because of the numbers being made unemployed. There is close co-operation now through Cabinet committees to upskill and retrain the unemployed. We are looking at creative and innovative ways to deal with that situation and I expect announcements will be made. I recognise the article referred to by the Deputy and we are examining areas where there is duplication and spare capacity in the further education sector.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Could the spend be co-ordinated between the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to ensure that the substantial resources that are going to FÁS are not outsourced to third party private contractors? There can be plenty of flexibility in the spending of the money but there should be an assurance that the money that is within the FÁS budget will be spent within the existing public educational infrastructure which currently has spare capacity. The track record of FÁS in recent times would cause one to doubt the efficiency of it placing contracts with third parties in the private sector. There is an accountable infrastructure in place that is short of resources but that has the capacity.

Deputy Seán Haughey

We have identified spare capacity, particularly in the institutes of technology. We are also looking at ways that further education schemes can be expanded. The Deputy makes a good point in that there must be greater co-operation and co-ordination on education and training even though they are split between two Departments. As Minister of State in both Departments, my aim is to secure that co-operation and I am fighting that case to see if we can change the way we do things in the provision of education and training.

School Patrons.

Damien English

Question:

10 Deputy Damien English asked the Minister for Education and Science when he will allow Educate Together schools to be established at second level; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7998/09]

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

Given the current trend of an increasing student population and the need to ensure maximum benefit from the financial resources available to me, I have asked the Department to examine the broad issues relating to school recognition at second level. The application from Educate Together to be recognised as a patron body at second level will be looked at in that context. It currently provides multi-denominational education in the primary sector.

The examination will have regard to the objectives of the Education Act 1998, one of which is to promote the right of parents to send their children to a school of the parents' choice having regard to the rights of patrons and the effective and efficient use of resources. In recent times, the rapid pace of social and demographic change in Ireland is reflected in a radically altered and more diverse society from which our school communities are drawn. Added to this, it is expected that enrolments at second level will increase significantly in the years ahead.

The introduction of free post-primary education in the late 1960s and the Government's aim of providing universal second level education resulted in the emergence of two additional alternative models of post primary provision, comprehensive schools and community schools, and an adaptation of the existing VEC model, designated community colleges. These were over and above the many voluntary secondary schools in existence.

Between them, these models provide for a range of schools that are denominational, multi-denominational and non-denominational in ethos and characteristic spirit. These schools have served and continue to serve their communities very well.

At present there is no formal procedure in place for assessing applications for new post-primary schools. The commission on school accommodation has recommended a set of criteria for assessing applications for new post primary schools. The commission has outlined a set of procedures to be followed by patrons seeking recognition of a new school and has suggested procedures that should be followed by the Department in assessing such applications. These recommendations are currently under consideration.

The examination of the recognition process for patrons at second level will be finalised as quickly as possible and the Department will be in contact with Educate Together when it has been completed. However, extending the existing range of patron bodies is a significant step and before proceeding further, I am anxious to ensure that the financial and other implications are fully assessed.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

So that is a no.

Deputy Brian Hayes

If ever there was a kick to touch, that was it. This application has been on the Minister's desk since December 2007. We have been getting replies stating that it is under consideration for 14 months. If the Minister does not want to do it, he should say so. I believe, however, that he is in breach of the law because the Education Act recognises Educate Together as a legitimate partner in education and the Act makes no distinction between primary and post-primary education. In excess of 10,000 children attend Educate Together primary schools but the Government is clearly attempting to frustrate the right of their parents to have the model of education they want.

Deputy Batt O’Keeffe

Educate Together is doing an outstanding job in the primary sector, the non-denominational side of it is covered. The second level sector is a different kettle of fish. The Deputy is looking for recognition as a patron body in an area that is already served by the VEC sector in a non-denominational way. There are serious issues that must be examined within the Department. I am anxious to decide what we will do and I will look at the issue actively.

Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.