Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Mar 2009

Vol. 676 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2009 (back from committee); No. 10, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Stabilisation and Association Agreement between the European Communities and the Republic of Montenegro (back from committee); No 11, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the terms of the Stabilisation and Association Agreement between the European Communities and the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (back from committee); No. 4, Investment of the National Pensions Reserve Fund and Miscellaneous Provisions Bill 2009 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10 p.m.; Nos. 9, 10 and 11 shall be decided without debate; and the proceedings on the Second Stage of No. 4 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m. tonight. Private Members' business shall be No. 53, motion re public finances.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 9, 10 and 11 without debate agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 4 agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny

That is not agreed. I have made the point on many occasions that I do not agree with the principle of guillotining Bills. This is important legislation and I do not agree that the manner in which the Government has gone about recapitalisation will ensure that money is made available from banks to extend credit lines to small businesses. This was the essence of my call for a recapitalisation programme, last November. In any event I consider that the Second Stage of this Bill should be allowed to run through to about 1.30 p.m. tomorrow, and on that basis I am opposed to it being guillotined this evening.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

On the same matter, the Bill is essentially technical legislation and there will be very little scope for amendments on Committee Stage and other Stages. We are asking that more time be made available for the Second Stage of the Bill, possibly to 1.30 p.m. tomorrow, as Deputy Kenny has said. That would allow the principle of the Bill to be further debated rather than technical matters that will be reviewed on Committee Stage.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

This is important legislation, technical or not. We are going to have very limited opportunity to debate it because there is no provision for an official slot for our party grouping in the configuration, as presented, regarding Second Stage. That is not ample, and must be acknowledged and respected.

I am asking that the time allocated for Second Stage be extended in order for all groupings within the House to have the opportunity to participate——

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——including Independent Deputies, as they so choose. Again, I ask the Taoiseach to lift the guillotine as regards Second Stage, and I concur with Deputy Stagg's view that there will be little demand for time as regards amendments. Therefore more time should be allocated on Second Stage and I am asking the Chief Whip and the Taoiseach to concur with that view.

The Taoiseach

If the House believes that 1.30 p.m. tomorrow will be adequate time, I have no problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I thank the Taoiseach for that. Is there a proposal to amend the minerals Act to deal with geothermal heating? There are quite a number of projects around the country where serious money is available for investment but there seems to be some difficulty as regards the Attorney General's office in terms of underground excavation for geothermal purposes because of constitutional difficulties. Will the Taoiseach say whether there is any intention to either amend or introduce new legislation in that regard?

The Taoiseach

I understand that a minerals Bill is due some time during the year which will consolidate existing legislation. I do not know whether it will incorporate this particular problem, but I shall have that checked.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I want to raise two matters. Arising from the publication, about 20 minutes ago, of the Exchequer returns for the end of February, which show a drop in tax revenue of about €1.8 billion and an increase in the Exchequer deficit from approximately €124 million this time last year to more than €2 billion now, and arising from the Taoiseach's earlier statement that it is the Government's intention to deal in some way with this dramatic issue, will he say, in terms of the Dáil's business, whether we will see a new budget before the end of March or the publication of new departmental Estimates? The Taoiseach said this would be addressed by way of a Government decision by the end of March, so will he indicate to the House what will be presented to the Dáil by that time, arising from what he said earlier?

I see in The Irish Times that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is calling for Ireland’s withdrawal from the European Defence Agency, in the context of the Government’s intention to have another referendum on the Lisbon treaty. I understand the Government has been in discussion with our European partners in respect of texts that will address the concerns of voters in the last referendum about aspects of our relationship with Europe. Is the Government seeking a withdrawal from the European Defence Agency?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant.

The Taoiseach

I cannot anticipate the Government's decision as regards whatever adjustments have to be made, but I take it we will make whatever decisions are necessary, to ensure that, based on the emerging figures, we obtain a deficit at the end of the year of about 9.5%, as we outlined originally to the Commission. It is important that this be done. I cannot anticipate the decision, but in my view it will require a combination of revenue raising and expenditure adjustments. We received the figures today and must consider the consequences of various initiatives and options.

On the other matter the Deputy raised, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, outlined his party's position. The question of preparation of text lies, in the first instance, with the Attorney General and it will then go to the legal services division. The issue in regard to the text we will be requiring in this area has not yet gone to——

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

First, arising from Dáil business, and I am sticking strictly with Dáil business, the Taoiseach, in response to my first question, said that decisions would be made this month which, as I understood from what he said, would be a combination of revenue raising and expenditure cuts. In respect of Dáil business and specifically in regard to revenue raising, is it therefore intended that a new budget will be introduced to the House and when will that take place? Second, will new sets of departmental Estimates be presented to the House arising from any decisions in respect of expenditure cuts?

The Taoiseach

On the first matter, if it is decided, based on what is emerging, there will have to be some revenue raising aspect to this matter it would be done through a finance(No. 2) Bill in the normal way. Second, regarding the question of the Estimates, they will be provided in the aftermath of such decisions.

Deputy Gilmore rose.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other Deputies offering.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I appreciate that but the Taoiseach has said that this would be done by way of a finance (No. 2) Bill in the normal way. This is not normal. Will a new budget be introduced to the House and if there is to be a finance (No. 2) Bill, when will that be presented?

The Taoiseach

I ask Deputy Gilmore to be fair in respect of all the circumstances. We got Exchequer returns today for the end of February. We have indicated that we will meet and make political decisions based on what is emerging to ensure we come in with a 9.5% deficit to the end of the year. Whatever requirements are made arising out of those decisions will be taken in the House in due course. That is the decision the Government took today and when we take further decisions we will inform the House further.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Can I ask the Taoiseach if he managed see the "Prime Time" programme last night where a person——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will be well aware that "Prime Time" is not relevant on the Order of Business.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The Ceann Comhairle would be amazed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would be stunned.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

It is relevant afterwards.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

In this case a man was found in possession of €1.8 million worth of heroin and cocaine.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must stay in order.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

On the last day of the court term a nolle prosequi was entered without notice.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot go into that now. Deputy Rabbitte must stay in order.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I would like to hear from the Taoiseach whether the charges can be re-entered and whether there is any explanation——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows well I cannot go into that. It is not possible to go into that now.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The belief is that this man may be under protection because he is an official Garda informant.

An Ceann Comhairle

If I allow Deputy Rabbitte go off in that direction I would have to allow other Deputies. The Deputy will have to put down a question on that or raise it on the Adjournment. I cannot allow it be raised now.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I will do so, Sir——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please do.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

——because the people of this city and the country are horrified that somebody found in possession——

An Ceann Comhairle

Please proceed on that basis.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

——of so many lethal drugs ought to escape being before the courts for reasons that were not specified——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to ask the Deputy to desist now and put down a question in another way. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Joe Costello

On that issue——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no point in Deputy Costello raising the issue because I will give him the same answer.

Deputy Joe Costello

On legislation and in the context of the same issue, these charges were dropped in regard to a situation where the particular gentleman was caught red-handed——

An Ceann Comhairle

I must be consistent.

Deputy Joe Costello

The charges were dropped surreptitiously on the last day by the Director of Public Prosecutions——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must ask about the legislation. He is elaborating.

Deputy Joe Costello

Under the law the Director of Public Prosecutions is not obliged to give any reasons as to why he strikes out a case.

An Ceann Comhairle

What legislative provision is the Deputy talking about?

Deputy Joe Costello

My question to the Taoiseach is if he will he amend the 1974 DPP legislation——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no promise to do that. Is legislation promised in this area, Taoiseach?

Deputy Joe Costello

——so that there is an obligation, where there are obvious questionable circumstances of strike out, on the Director of Public Prosecutions to give an explanation?

An Ceann Comhairle

We have to move on. We cannot go into that. Is legislation promised?

Deputy Joe Costello

A Cheann Comhairle, my question is whether there is a proposal on an amendment to the 1974 legislation to facilitate the provision of an explanation in circumstances that give rise to public concern.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can only ask that if legislation is promised. Is legislation promised in that area Taoiseach?

The Taoiseach

I do not believe it has been promised but to be helpful to the Deputies, and they may know this already, as I understand it the Garda Ombudsman Commission, which has a public interest role in these matters, is investigating it on that basis consistent with the legislation we passed here. That is the position on that. There is no——

Deputy Joe Costello

That is not quite the same issue.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

That is a separate issue of Garda conduct. The issue is the nolle prosequi that was entered without notice on the last day of term.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, I cannot go into that. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

This outrage, a Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I know all about that but the Deputy will have to raise the matter another way.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

——occurred in the constituency of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform who is sitting beside the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to raise the matter another way.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

What I want to know is will the charges against this man be re-entered——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to put down a question on that.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

——having been caught red-handed causing mayhem and death in this country?

An Ceann Comhairle

That question cannot be answered now. Deputy Burton is next. I ask Deputy Rabbitte to desist. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

We are talking about a major drugs importer getting off scot free. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order. I have asked Deputy Rabbitte to raise that issue in another manner. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

——is the Deputy for the constituency and he has a record of making representations for all types of constituents.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Burton, I will move on to the next speaker. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

What is he going to do about this situation?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Rabbitte should put back on his pink costume.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is another way of raising that matter and Deputy Rabbitte will have to raise it that way. I call Deputy Burton.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Rabbitte probably does not remember the pink costume.

Deputy Joan Burton

I thank the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance for the offer to brief me and, I understand, Deputy Bruton and Fine Gael, tomorrow on the Exchequer figures but when does the Taoiseach intend to publish expenditure profiles for the rest of the year? It is very difficult for the Opposition to form views as to our financial position unless we have that information. Also, in the context of a promised finance (No. 2) Bill, does the Taoiseach have a tentative date and will he acknowledge that a finance (No. 2) Bill is a budget by any other name?

An Ceann Comhairle

We will not go into that now. On the finance (No. 2) Bill.

The Taoiseach

I am not getting into semantics with the Deputies. I was asked about the decisions that were taken today. I can answer on the decisions taken today; I cannot answer on decisions yet to be taken. The decision taken today is that by the end of this month Government will make the necessary decisions to deal with the issue that has arisen as a result of today's figures. That is the decision taken today. When a further decision is taken in more detail, we can come back to Members in the House.

Regarding the briefing the Deputies say has been made available to them by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, in terms of calling to the Department of Finance, as spokespersons for their parties, all of those matters can be dealt with there.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Joan Burton

Can I ask the Taoiseach——

An Ceann Comhairle

He has answered the questions.

Deputy Joan Burton

The expenditure profiles are a fundamental part of knowing what the Government expects in taxes and spending.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order. Deputy Naughten is next.

Deputy Joan Burton

How are we supposed to work without some elementary information?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Burton will have to follow up that another way.

Deputy Joan Burton

It sounds like the Government budgetary system has broken down.

The Taoiseach

No matter how helpful one is there is always a problem.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Naughten.

Deputy Denis Naughten

On promised legislation I presume the Tánaiste is aware that yesterday in the United States Senate, a stop tax haven abuse bill was published, one of the provisions of which is to classify all US controlled foreign corporations as domestic for tax purposes, which has major implications here in Ireland. Can the Taoiseach give an indication as to the action the Government is taking to ensure that this measure does not impact on legitimate businesses operating here?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have enough to do with legislation here without dealing with that in America also.

Deputy Denis Naughten

In light of No. 25 on the promised legislation list, can the company law consolidation and reform Bill be expedited to allow us deal with that issue?

The Taoiseach

There is no date for the second Bill. I would make the point that we are not a designated tax haven.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

Cathain a fhoilseofar an reachtaíocht nua chun teorainneacha na Gaeltachta a athrú agus san-mhíniú nua a dhéanamh ar cad is Gaeltacht ann?

The Taoiseach

Níl aon dáta agam go fóill.

Deputy Brian O’Shea

An mbeidh sé i mbliana?

The Taoiseach

B'fhéidir. Níl a fhios agam. Níl aon dáta ar an nóta atá agam. Tá sé ar intinn againn.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Táimid ag fanacht le dhá bhliain.

The Taoiseach

Ní raibh mé críochnaithe leis an Teachta Ó Sé. Níl a fhios agam cén dáta ar a mbeidh an Bille againn. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil sé tábhachtach. Tabharfaidh mé freagra don Teachta chomh luath agus is féidir liom.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Maidir leis an méid a bhí le rá ag an Aire, an Teachta Gormley — regarding what the Minister, Deputy Gormley, said about the Lisbon treaty in terms of the obligation on member states to improve their military capability, can we anticipate that a motion on membership of the European Defence Agency will result from his declared intention to have Ireland withdraw from membership of it? On a second promise made by the Minister, he indicated legislation was being prepared on the funding of referenda. Will the Taoiseach indicate the stage the legislation is at? When will it be brought before the House?

Over the course of the weekend the Taoiseach referred to legislation on a banking commission. Some of us heard him mention the matter. When does he intend to introduce that legislation? At what stage is the preparatory work? Have the heads of the Bill been agreed?

The Taoiseach

Proposals on the heads of a Bill have not yet been agreed. On the second matter, a memo will be brought to the Government very shortly by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan. The first matter is not on the list but we intend to bring forward legislation before a referendum is held.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

When will the Goodbody report being prepared for the Commission on Taxi Regulation on the income and working conditions of taxi drivers be laid before Dáil Éireann? I understand the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, has the document to hand. When will we have a chance to look at it?

An Ceann Comhairle

When will it be brought before the Dáil?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

That is what I am asking.

The Taoiseach

I do not know. It is a matter for the Minister for Transport to decide as to whether the report will be brought before the Dáil. I do not know if it contains confidential information or is a private report. I do not know what is its status.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Regarding an article in The Irish Times this morning on pending legislation on management fees, there is a situation where developers are not paying management levies. Residents who bought apartments in complexes are finding they are in the anomalous situation where they are subsidising management fees because of the availability of vacant apartments in the complexes. When will we see in the House the long-awaited legislation to resolve what is a long outstanding matter, namely, the regulation of management companies across the State?

The Taoiseach

I am hopeful the matter will be addressed during the next session.