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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 10 Jul 2009

Vol. 688 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

The Order of Business is No. b11, motion re Mandela day, No. c11, motion re membership of committees; No. 23, Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 — Committee and Remaining Stages (resumed); No. 5, Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) Bill 2009 — Second and Remaining Stages; and No. 1a, Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Bill 2009 [Seanad] — Second and Remaining Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. b11 and c11 shall be decided without debate. The proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages of No. 23 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall include only those amendments set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Second and Remaining Stages of No. 5 shall be taken today and the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 4 p.m. today and the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 5 p.m. today by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall include only those amendments set down or accepted by the Minister for Health and Children.

The proceedings on Second Stage of No. 1a shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7.30 p.m. tonight and the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 9 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall include only those amendments set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 September 2009.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to put to the House today. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. b11 and c11 agreed?

Deputy Enda Kenny

I agree with these.

I am glad to see Ambassador Jana from South Africa in the House. No. b11 is a simple motion for the recognition of Mandela day, which is based on a request from President Zuma of South Africa, and we respect that request. Nelson Mandela was an international icon of persistence, dedication, truth and equality. We fully support No. b11 and it might have been preferable to have had an opportunity to have a real debate next week on the contribution to international peace made by Nelson Mandela.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

I respect what Deputy Kenny has stated but I must remind Members that if an item is agreed we do not have a discussion on it. This is an exception.

Deputy Joan Burton

As a former secretary of the Irish Anti-Apartheid Movement in Ireland, we need to remember that Mandela moved from being a prisoner of conscience for more than 20 years to being a light to the world. The Labour Party is delighted to celebrate today and we recognise the presence of the South African Ambassador.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Well said.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I am happy to make one small amendment to the earlier remarks of Deputy Kenny; former President Mandela "is" an international icon and that is something we have every right to celebrate also.

I welcome the fact that the motion before the House has been signed off by the representative spokespersons of all parties in the Chamber. It is a unanimous proposition deserving of unanimous endorsement consequently.

An Ceann Comhairle

Exceptionally, the Tánaiste might wish to say a few words.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

As an exception.

The Tánaiste

As an exception to the exception.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, as an exception.

The Tánaiste

I reiterate the welcome to the ambassador. I am delighted to see we are d'aon ghuth mar gheall ar seo. We are of one voice in taking the global call, which is to inspire people from every corner of the earth to embrace Nelson Mandela's values as they seek to improve their lives through service to their communities. They are values to which we would aspire and we are delighted to be in a position to celebrate on that day.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 23 agreed?

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Ceann Comhairle knows it is not agreed. Amendment No. 4 of 43 is being discussed at present and some of the amendments tabled have very serious import. Yesterday, I made the point that the guillotine has been used on 18 Bills out of 21 in the final four weeks of this session and four of those Bills have potential constitutional implications, namely, the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill, the Defamation Bill, the Twenty-Eighth Amendment of the Constitution (Treaty of Lisbon) Bill and the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Bill.

This is obviously difficult because people are outraged at what is happening on the streets in some of our towns and cities. At the same time, there is a need for this legislature to be able to debate thoroughly the amendments involved. The House should sit next week to deal with this matter. I oppose the guillotining of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill in the way proposed by the Government. It is much too serious to be just one of 18 Bills rammed through by guillotine in the final four weeks of the session.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

As the House knows, the Bill is born out of the "something must be done" school of law-making. We have reached section 7 in the debate and it is unconscionable that the Minister would want to push through the entire legislation by 1.30 p.m. today. It has at least three very controversial dimensions. Even from the point of view of wanting to make secure whatever ultimately comes through the Oireachtas, the Bill needs to be subjected to considerably more scrutiny than is permitted between now and 1.30 p.m. I ask the Minister to agree that it be referred to select committee and that we resume it as soon as the House resumes in September.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Sinn Féin Deputies do not agree to the taking of the Bill at all and, as for the guillotine, it clearly is a further impediment to proper scrutiny and debate in the Chamber. The Bill has huge implications for the rights of all citizens and I emphasise the word "all". It is critical we realise this for the sake of justice and the rule of law in the State. Fundamental changes in the legal code that have constitutional implications are being provided for in the legislation in a matter of a few hours, with the conclusion of Committee, Report and Final Stages by 1.30 p.m. today. The legislation has the potential to be challenged constitutionally and, sadly, will prove to be a false hope for victims of gangland crime. What we need is to guarantee we have proper policing and investigation and ensure we have sound convictions in order to address these serious challenges in society. We are all of one mind that this needs to be done. What is happening with regard to the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill is, sadly, not the answer to all of that.

The Tánaiste

There has been considered debate on the legislation. More than 11 hours have been provided for the consideration of the legislation and it will be given further consideration in the Upper House. Recently, I read through the transcripts covering a situation where we considered the immediacy and necessity of introducing legislation such as this. It would be a dereliction of our duty if, for example, we allowed something happen between now and the return of the House, because a person can be charged only under the legislation that has been enacted at the time. If we want to see the activation of this legislation along with the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Bill to deal with these issues, it is prudent the House considers and passes it today.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 23, Committee and Remaining Stages of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 76; Níl, 61.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5, Second and Remaining Stages of the Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) Bill 2009, agreed?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Are we on No. 5?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am on No. 5 but I have not read it yet.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I am sorry.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

It is better to be too early than too late.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is female telepathy. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5, Second and Remaining Stages of the Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) Bill 2009, agreed?

Deputy Enda Kenny

Deputy James Reilly has informed me that the consequences of this Bill include the fact that while retailers may be in breach of the law in respect of the display of cigarettes, there is a writing-down of the penalty in a number of areas. He does not object to that. However, can I have confirmation that this does not include the sale of cigarettes to minors? I am informed that inherent in this Bill is the provision that if cigarettes are sold to minors the normal flexibility of the law should not apply. When the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Micheál Martin, introduced the smoking ban it was introduced on the basis of being a health issue and got support from all over the country. One cannot and should not pass a law that allows for a deliberate easing of the law where minors are concerned.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

I apologise for being too early, but in this House it is better to be too early than too late.

An Ceann Comhairle

That has been my experience as well.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

What Deputy Kenny said indicates that we should not take all Stages of this Bill today. I understand there has been consultation with shopkeepers on the legislation, but not with organisations such as the Irish Cancer Society and the Irish Heart Foundation, who are concerned about its public health elements. We need to have time between Second Stage and Remaining Stages to have such consultation and tease out the kind of issues Deputy Kenny raised. The legislation we are being asked to amend has only recently come into force and we are already producing a Bill to amend it. The guillotine is not acceptable.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I wish to oppose the guillotine. We have received——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

We must have order while Deputy Ó Caoláin is speaking.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——written concerns from a number of organisations, including NGOs working in the area of cancer and ASH, and all these concerns have been received only in past 24 hours. It is very important that adequate time is given to consider all the elements of the Bill and the guillotine will, quite simply, curtail that opportunity. I ask that it be lifted and we continue our work throughout the evening if necessary.

The Tánaiste

Reading through the main provisions of the Bill, it refers specifically to the issue of retailers. Sections 3 and 5, to which the Leader of the Opposition has referred, contain the judicial discretion aspect. The provision in the Bill is for a 90 day removal from the retail register of advertising.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

We should have extra time to debate this rather than doing it on the hoof.

Deputy Martin Cullen

We will go out and have a fag.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Emmet Stagg

We do not have the time for that.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Famous last words.

The Tánaiste

There will be three and a half hours of discussion on this matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

On or off the hoof, Deputy Stagg, there cannot be a debate on it now.

The Tánaiste

Exactly.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Government cocked up the first one and is making a hames of it now.

An Ceann Comhairle

To deal with the proposal, Tánaiste.

The Tánaiste

As the Ceann Comhairle is aware, on the issue of reform it is sometimes difficult to let go. On the issue of the guillotine, there will be more than three and a half hours to discuss the legislation. This is an amendment to the Public Health (Tobacco) Bill following consultation and a lot of deliberation involving many Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas as well as people outside, who were very anxious that the legislation would be introduced.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 5 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 64.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá: Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl: Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 1a, Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Bill 2009 [Seanad] — Second Stage and Remaining Stages, agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny

This is a case of another Bill being rammed through by use of the guillotine. We have made this point on many occasions but let me repeat that 18 Bills out of 21 have been rammed through by guillotine in the past four weeks and I object to this.

Deputy Seán Sherlock

It is not right that we should guillotine this Bill at this stage. It warrants further discussion particularly on Committee Stage and it warrants further consideration by expert opinion before we decide its finality. I oppose the guillotine of the Bill.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It is important to point out that in the past couple of weeks there have been at least three justice related Bills before the House, each of which required significant scrutiny and preparation by Deputies, including in the main, Opposition Deputies, in terms of engaging with the Minister and his support on these matters. Now we have another Bill, namely, the Enforcement of Court Orders Bill, being introduced on the tail of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill 2009, which has taken up so much time for Opposition justice spokespersons in this past short period. It does not allow for justice spokespeople on the Opposition benches the proper opportunity to prepare and tease through each of the elements involved. It is rushed legislation which is being guillotined once again. I rest my case but I oppose the guillotine. There it is, I took a breath and silence descended upon the place.

The Tánaiste

I put my case. Molaim an rúin.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 1a be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 66.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 September 2009, agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny

I do not expect that of all the items on the Order of Business there will be agreement on this one and for very good reason, beyond the usual reason of just having a vote for the sake of having one. In April the Chief Whip told the House that the Government would publish 26 Bills of which 17 were published leaving nine unpublished, including the employment agencies regulation Bill, the industrial relations (amendment) Bill, the environment (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, the environment (liability) Bill, direct debit mandates Bill, Child Care Bill, criminal justice (forensic sampling and evidence) Bill, criminal justice (money laundering) Bill and so on. Nine Bills were not published. The House is never given an explanation why these Bills are put on a list for publication during the session and then almost half of them are not published.

As was pointed out here yesterday by both Deputy Charles Flanagan and Deputy Shatter, we all have to treat seriously the issue of serious crime. We have a duty, while we are Members of this House, to debate and tease out the implications of the amendments to Bills in a proper, thorough and fitting fashion. I am sure that as the Deputy Leader of the Government, the Tánaiste does not want to happen, a situation, as Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Shatter pointed out could well arise here, in which the Government has obviously not done its legislative duty in a proper fashion. The House is still in session and we should sit next week to tease out the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill in a more thorough and fitting fashion.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House divided on that issue and made a decision and there is no going back on that now.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I am not just saying this for the sake of having a vote. I really mean it.

I assume that the proposed date of 16 September is because of the publication of the NAMA legislation, or that the House is coming back to discuss that legislation.

Last week the German Government put through its legislation dealing with its bad banks and it has already settled on a price level from mid-2008 for the acquisition of assets. We are now nine months on and we still have a very small number of people employed in NAMA. We do not know what the discount will be and as a consequence, with banks informing their shareholders, bank share values are increasing and the country's credit is continuing to decline. We need to have a much clearer fix on this situation.

There are other issues. The Tánaiste is also the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment. Many thousands of small businesses cannot get access to credit and liquidity and overdraft facilities and by the time NAMA becomes effective, which could well be mid-2010, I can predict there will be thousands of small businesses no longer in business. The Tánaiste needs to do something to prevent the leakage out of the economy by higher taxes, by bringing in some fiscal stimulus. The VAT regime is not working and the rates of VAT should be changed to provide that fiscal stimulus for a limited period of, say, two years, to give some incentive and some injection to create and to protect jobs.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Yes, I have. I am waiting for a response from the Tánaiste's Department, principally, in respect of the document produced by Fine Gael and Deputy Coveney. The Taoiseach said he would get a considered opinion on our proposals as to how we can protect 80,000 jobs and create 100,000 jobs. That is something I await with interest.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a general discussion on the economy this morning.

Deputy Enda Kenny

We have had a litany of eminent persons from the Fianna Fáil Party — Deputy Andrews, Deputy Kennedy, Deputy O'Keeffe, Deputy McGrath, Deputy Aylward, Deputy Kelly and Deputy Byrne — saying rightly that the McCarthy report should be published. If the Taoiseach did not want it published he should have said to Mr. McCarthy at the outset, "I don't want to see your report and don't come here with your report until the middle of October". The Taoiseach did not say that and the Minister for Finance is now in possession of this document. The Minister, Deputy Lenihan, should publish the document, let everyone see what is in it, let them begin to digest it and for its value, or whatever is in it, at least the range of options presented by McCarthy can begin to be considered by the people.

Deputy Michael Creed

He should listen to his auntie.

Deputy Enda Kenny

It is only a list of recommendations. We do not know the full extent of what it contains but I believe——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny has made his point.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——that the public is entitled to know what it is the Cabinet will have to discuss.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach should publish it and let everybody see what is in it——

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Does the Deputy mind if the Cabinet sees it first?

A Deputy

Deputy O'Rourke said it should be published.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——because we will find out sooner or later. We all have a job to do in respect of the Lisbon referendum.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

The Cabinet is entitled to see it first.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny has made his point. Only short statements are allowed on this issue.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Do not mislead the public by allegations of this, that or the other.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to move on. The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The process the Tánaiste talked about yesterday should lead to a conclusion at the Cabinet meeting next Tuesday or Wednesday. She should make a decision and publish this document and let the people see what Mr. McCarthy has submitted.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Enda Kenny

For that reason I object to the taking of No. 5. The Dáil should sit next week to tease out the implications of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill. It should have available to it the contents of the McCarthy report. I know all the Members on the opposite side are anxious to get away out of this place——

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Not half as anxious as the Members opposite.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——when they get lambasted, embarrassed and beaten down——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——after what has been one of the most lamentable performances by a Government——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is enough now.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——in the past 35 years.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point. I call Deputy Gilmore.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Four hundred and eighteen thousand people on the live register do not want to see this House rise for the summer period this week.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot debate the economy now. I must call Deputy Gilmore.

A Deputy

Stay with us.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Come back again next week and we will have another round.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

They can run but they cannot hide.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gilmore. Only brief statements are allowed.

A Deputy

We have the seats. The Government need not worry.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Labour Party has given very careful consideration to the proposal from the Government that the House should adjourn until 16 September. I appreciate that the Government is tired, exhausted, bruised, battered and beaten.

Deputy Brian Lenihan

We are full of energy.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Nervous.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

If the Government needs a break from the exertions of governing they can be facilitated with a break for much longer than nine weeks.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Give us a break.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

That is exactly what we are planning on giving you. Putting the House into suspension for nine weeks when there is unfinished business and business that is being finished too quickly is not the way to do it. When the House reconvened in September of last year it was to debate the Government's approach to the banking system. That is not finished business. We still do not have the NAMA legislation and we should not adjourn the House until we have the NAMA legislation and have an opportunity of discussing it. When we came back last September the Government suddenly discovered that there was an economic problem and decided to bring forward the budget to October and in that budget announced it would examine public expenditure. It has now got the report on that. We should not adjourn until that report is published and we have had an opportunity to discuss it.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Ahern, is so anxious——

Deputy Michael Creed

For the top job.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——to get a political reputation for himself for dealing with gangland crime he is now in danger of leaving those very gangland people at liberty by rushing legislation which is now in danger of being tied up for a long time in the courts.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

What did you say in November 2008?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

We could consider——

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter has been dealt with. The House has divided on that, Deputy Gilmore, as I told Deputy Kenny.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

You said you wanted no excuses as to why we could not do it.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

The Minister is giving them all.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

That is what you said following Shane Geoghegan's murder.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

It is a long time since November. Where has the Minister been since November? We could have been dealing with this issue.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

You said you wanted no excuses.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister, Deputy Ahern, must address his comments through the Chair. In any event, the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Bill has been decided upon by the House.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

You said you wanted action.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore, without interruption.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

His problem is that in his haste to get a political reputation——

Deputy Dermot Ahern

You are getting the action that you asked for in November but you want to analyse it. You do not want action. You want to pull out.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister, Deputy Ahern, will have to address his comments through the Chair.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

You will have to continue that conversation elsewhere.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The danger now is that you are leaving them at liberty.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

You called for action in November. You are now getting it. You said you did not want any excuses.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

You have a reputation for being a tough Minister——

Deputy Dermot Ahern

You are running scared.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore, address your comments through the Chair. The Deputies can continue that conversation somewhere else.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Now we know what the legislation is for. The legislation is designed more to enhance the Minister's reputation than it is to get the——

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

We are being asked to approve a nine week recess——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Do you want to come outside, Dermot?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——while the country is in the depths of an economic crisis, thousands of people are being added to the unemployment list——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Ó Caoláin, without interruption.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——homes are being repossessed, businesses are going out of business on a continual basis, health and education cuts, including hospital closures, are badly hurting families and communities.

Deputy Máire Hoctor

What about crime?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

All of these matters are very serious issues and all the time we have no real leadership, no vision and no strategy for job retention and job creation. This Government has the country scundered, and that is the bottom line on it. We cannot agree to the proposal that it head off for a nine week break to shower its heads. The business needs to continue and we agree with other voices here; we should sit again next week. I challenge the Government. If it thinks it is a bluff, call it. Let us test it and see exactly who means what they say here this morning.

Deputy Martin Cullen

We will have to settle all of this on the plinth, a Cheann Comhairle.

The Tánaiste

There were 26 Bills on the A list. There were 18 yesterday. Nineteen have been published. Three additional Bills outside of the A list were published. Several other items of legislation will come to Cabinet during the month of July and there has been a considerable——

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Legislation by diktat.

The Tánaiste

——amount of legislation brought forward and discussed in the House. I smirked when I heard the word "scundered"——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Off with the head.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

That is a Semtex term.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption.

The Tánaiste

Sinn Féin are scundered, Fine Gael are in a lament and I have to tell the leader of the Labour Party——

A Deputy

You are in denial.

The Tánaiste

——that contrary to his view, this Government is lean, mean and very fit for purpose.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Tánaiste, complete what you have to say.

The Tánaiste

Contrary to opinion, unlike what the Leader of Fine Gael has said——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Lean, mean and broke.

Deputy Tom Sheahan

And hungry.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

She means lean, mean and not ready.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste to complete.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Government is mean all right.

Deputy Michael Creed

The Government is meaningless.

Deputy Damien English

That is the most honest statement she has ever made.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste to complete.

The Tánaiste

We could always entice the Deputy outside to prove it, but I do not think we will do that.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

What I find difficult with Fine Gael's policies is that its front bench seeks reductions while its backbench is bleating looking for more investment and services.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

This is a pantomime, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Michael Creed

The Tánaiste should look at her own backbenchers who are looking for her head.

The Tánaiste

Perhaps it would be more prudent if Fine Gael decided what it wanted. This side of the House, on the other hand, has determined what it wants to see.

Deputies

The Tánaiste should look behind her at her backbenches.

Deputy Frank Feighan

She has lost it.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

They should listen to their agony aunt.

Question put: "That the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 September 2009."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 67.

Tá

Níl

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Enda Kenny

First, I want to correct the record. Deputy Charlie O'Connor has informed me he too wishes to see the McCarthy report published.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I did not say that.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It will go down well in Tallaght.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

We need to keep him out of Tallaght.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I commend the heroic efforts of the Minister for Finance yesterday in diverting traffic on Ormond Quay. I hope the unfortunate person knocked off her bicycle makes a full recovery.

The House has made its decision to rise until 16 September. The tradition is that I should take this opportunity to wish the Ceann Comhairle, as presiding officer of the House, some serenity and peace in the weeks ahead. I would also like to thank the members of the staff of the House for their unfailing courtesy to both visitors and Members.

I also pay tribute to the members of the Fourth Estate for their continuous interest in what happens in the Chamber and in the machinations of politics. I hope the Ceann Comhairle, in his capacity as chairman of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission, can deal with the business of structural deficiencies in this ancient house of the Geraldines to allow the members of the media prompt and quick access to those people with whom they love to talk in and around the corridors of Leinster House.

My wish was that the House would have sat for another week but I cannot change that. If those who have left the Chamber already are getting their buckets, spades and sandals ready, I hope they will still focus on the real problems with which we have to deal.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

And remember the sun block.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Exactly. As I say those few words, I wish the Ceann Comhairle success in the time ahead.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Kenny.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I join Deputy Kenny in wishing the Ceann Comhairle and all of the Members of the House, the staff of the Houses and the press who report on our business here a happy summer holiday. I hope to see them all back here again as the leaves begin to turn brown.

While we are waiting for the leaves to turn brown——

Deputy Michael Creed

And the green shoots.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Out the door.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The only thing we have seen shooting from Greens here is shooting out the door as fast as they can.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

And the Greens shooting themselves in the foot.

Deputy Michael Creed

And mouth.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Obviously, there is much business that the Government must consider between now and when we have an opportunity of holding it to account again in September. How many meetings of the Cabinet are scheduled between now and 16 September?

An Ceann Comhairle

Unfortunately, that question is not in order.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Tánaiste might answer it anyway.

An Ceann Comhairle

I doubt if she can because——

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

She probably does not know.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The problem is that she is not here to answer that question. She is here to discuss the Order of Business and the business which is ordered.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

She can be trusted with that.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Tánaiste may want to wish us all well anyway.

The Tánaiste

I was going to do that at the end.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

At 9 o'clock?

Deputy Emmet Stagg

She should do it when she gets a chance.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Will the Tánaiste confirm, however many Cabinet meetings there are scheduled, that after the Cabinet meeting next week, where it will consider the report from an bord snip nua, that the Government will publish it? Otherwise, bits of it will be leaked during the holidays as the beaches of Kerry beckon. It will become like an edition of Lady Chatterley’s Lover as it is passed around among Members of the Dáil. Can we have the full, complete, unexpurgated——

Deputy Michael Creed

Unredacted.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

——version launched after the Cabinet meeting? What does the Tánaiste say?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste cannot discuss what happens at the Cabinet meeting and Deputy Rabbitte knows that well.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

After the Cabinet meeting.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is after the ball is over kind of stuff.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

After it is all over, is there likely to be publication of the McCarthy report next week?

The Tánaiste

Matters have not changed since yesterday because we did not have a Cabinet meeting.

Deputy Michael Creed

They have the report.

The Tánaiste

The Cabinet meeting will take place on Wednesday, at which stage the Minister for Finance will brief the members of the Cabinet. The Cabinet will then make its decision as to what will happen.

Deputy Bernard Allen

Run for the beaches.

Deputy Joan Burton

Before the Dáil resumes on 16 September, will we get details of the valuation method for the impaired assets that will be taken over by NAMA? I asked the Minister for Finance if there would be an independent valuation board, as is done in most countries.

An Ceann Comhairle

No doubt the Deputy will find another way of raising that matter.

Deputy Joan Burton

When we come back in September our national debt will have risen by €20 billion to €40 billion.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot have a discussion on the economy now, as the Deputies well know. I have allowed much latitude on the five items which were before the House this morning.

Deputy Joan Burton

I know €20 billion to €40 billion does not sound much in Kerry——

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot discuss this now.

Deputy Joan Burton

——but in Dublin it sounds like a great deal.

An Ceann Comhairle

Whether it is in Kerry or Dublin, I cannot discuss it. Even if it was in Cork, I could not discuss it.

Deputy Joan Burton

Will we get information——

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Deputy Joan Burton

——about the valuation method of NAMA——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss it. I must call Deputy Crawford.

Deputy Joan Burton

——and the debt it implies for every taxpayer in this country?

An Ceann Comhairle

I must call Deputy Crawford.

Deputy Joan Burton

Will we get any information?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Crawford.

Deputy Joan Burton

Can I ask——

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order. Deputy Burton knows that as well as I do. She is here a good few years now. She knows what is and what is not in order and that is not in order. Ask something that is in order and I will be only too pleased to facilitate her.

Deputy Joan Burton

Can I ask about prices and the National Consumer Agency? What is the position on the legislation on the future of that agency, which apparently was meant to be merged with the Competition Authority? We also understand that part of the Financial Regulator is to be merged in a third merger. Could the Tánaiste tell us because prices continue to rise?

The Tánaiste

The legislation is being finalised in my Department. It is my clear intention to have it for the next session.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

Over recent weeks and months, junior civil servants and all sorts of people have had their salaries cut, farmers are losing out in every way and hospitals are being closed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Come on now.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

When can an issue that is extremely serious regarding the cost of tribunals, inquiries, etc., be dealt with, that is, the Legal Costs Bill? Can the Tánaiste assure us that over the summer months this will be dealt with and every citizen in this country will be treated equally, no matter his or her status?

The Tánaiste

There is no date.

Deputy Michael Creed

I note on the wires this morning that the G8 agreed a rescue package of $15 billion for the world's poorest farmers.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss it.

Deputy Michael Creed

I am not in any sense insisting that Irish agriculture is in a comparable situation to those at the bottom rung of the ladder globally, but we have seen in recent weeks the publication of the Teagasc income survey, which showed that farm incomes——

An Ceann Comhairle

A question that is in order, Deputy Creed. I am trying to facilitate the Deputy.

Deputy Michael Creed

I will bring this into order, if the Ceann Comhairle bears with me a moment. The report showed that farm incomes fell by 13% in 2008 and are projected to fall by 13% in 2009. We have a series of cuts, the most recent only announced in a sneaky fashion——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into that now. Deputy Creed could not expect it. I would have to allow every Member to do it then and I cannot do that.

Deputy Michael Creed

——that this House will not be entitled to scrutinise in any way the suspension of the REPS support scheme for new applicants, the Greens pulling the plug on environment projects and on organic grants.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can raise that in another way. There are other ways of raising these matters.

Deputy Michael Creed

Can I ask the Tánaiste——

An Ceann Comhairle

Ask her about legislation, please.

Deputy Michael Creed

——in respect of the agrifood sector, whether the Government, either at a national level or an EU level, envisages any remedy or rescue package——

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot go into that. The Deputy must deal with that in another way. Otherwise, I would have to allow every Deputy to do the same.

Deputy Michael Creed

——to address the crisis in agriculture, in particular, in the dairy sector?

An Ceann Comhairle

Then the agriculture spokespersons for the Labour Party, Sinn Féin and some Independents, and everybody else, including even Government backbenchers, might like to raise the same issue. I cannot allow it.

Deputy Michael Creed

The Tánaiste, from her time in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, will be aware that there is a significant probability that we will be back here in September——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Michael Creed

——discussing the crisis in the dairy industry along with NAMA because there are likely to be casualties in the processing sector outside the farm gate, as opposed to at farm gate level.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have to ask Deputy Creed to resume his seat. I call Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Michael Creed

The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Brendan Smith, fiddles while Rome burns. There is no action.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Creed is out of order. He did not ask any question that was in order. I call Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Not wishing to rain on the parade, but there is a piece of promised legislation that I mentioned previously, and I hate to bring it up again. The Government stated it would introduce legislation to consolidate and modernise financial service legislation in accordance with the Government's better regulation agenda.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Sounds good.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Those are the Government's words. It has been on the list published by the Chief Whip for some considerable time under section C. Will that Bill be brought before the House on 16 September or will the Government meander along the sylvan settings of this country for the month of August and part of September——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked his question on the legislation.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

——and ignore everything, which the Ceann Comhairle has never done? I want to say a special thank you to the Ceann Comhairle for his tolerance and compassion——

Deputy Paul Connaughton

Understanding.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

——to the poor unfortunate Members on this side of the House for this session. He made it somewhat tolerable in an intolerable situation. Can I ask for the answer to the question now?

The Tánaiste

I answered the question. I have told Deputy Durkan I do not know how many times since Easter that there is no date.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Kathleen Lynch.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no date.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That sums up what is wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot give a commentary on it now.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

There is no date.

The Tánaiste

It is a consolidation Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no "Aprés Match" allowed here.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is typical of what is going on over on that side of the House. They have ignored reality.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

On promised legislation, when will the child care Bill be published? In that respect, does the Government have any proposals to bring together all of the issues which affect children under one Department?

An Ceann Comhairle

I knew it was too good to be true. I call the Tánaiste on the child care Bill.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I have been trying to get an answer from the Minister for Education and Science in respect of a particular child——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste on the child care Bill.

The Tánaiste

It is going to Cabinet next week.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

——for the past month.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is the answer now.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

When will the child care Bill be published?

The Tánaiste

It goes to Cabinet next week.

An Ceann Comhairle

It will go to Dublin next week.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

Obviously, the Government has it in the nose for the farming community when it voted so much against the Tánaiste's party last month.

An Ceann Comhairle

The pity about that was the spokesperson. I cannot really allow Deputy Connaughton at it then.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

I will be in order in an minute. The Ceann Comhairle need not worry.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps the Deputy could make it faster.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

I will make it as fast as the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food took the €10,000 out of every farmer's pocket yesterday. That is how fast I will be.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must raise that some other way.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

It is an outrageous decision.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Pickpockets.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should ask a question that is relevant.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has left also and he has done his level best——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should not mind him.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

——to run every turf cutter off the bogs of Ireland over the summer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question to ask?

Deputy Paul Connaughton

I can assure the House that neither a Fianna Fáil Minister nor a Green Party Minister——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Connaughton has nothing to ask — that is fine.

Deputy Joe Costello

Has the Tánaiste any date for the publication of the European Defence Agency Bill?

The Tánaiste

It will be in the next session.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Ba mhaith liom an deis seo a thógaint síocháin agus sonas a ghuí ar fhoireann na Dála, ar fhoireann mo pháirtí féin, ar na Teachtaí eile agus ar na meáin. Bhí seisiún fada againn an uair seo agus de réir cosúlachta beidh seisiúin fada eile againn roimh an chéad toghchán eile.

Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur faoi Bhille a bhí luaite ar na cláir reachtaíochta le tamall de bhlianta anuas ach atá anois tar éis éalú uathu. Measaim gur luadh ar dtús é i 1997. An Bille atá i gceist ná an Bille cíos talún — the ground rent Bill. Cá bhfuil sé agus an dtiocfaidh sé ar ais riamh? An bhfuil aon seans ann go mbeidh sé os ár gcomhair amach anseo?

The Tánaiste

Ag an mbomaite seo, níl mé ábalta freagra a thabhairt don Teachta.

Deputy David Stanton

I want to ask about three Bills. We signed up to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities a while ago but the Mental Capacity Bill needs to be published and passed before we can ratify that important international agreement. Will the Tánaiste ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform when the Bill will be published and passed? Will it be before the end of 2009?

What is the position on the Sale of Alcohol Bill and the public health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, which have been promised for some time? One purpose of the latter is to protect young people from the dangers of sunbeds.

The Tánaiste

I hope the Mental Capacity Bill will be dealt with this year, if at all possible. The Sale of Alcohol Bill will be considered next year. I do not believe there is a date listed for the public health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill but I will check it for the Deputy.

Deputy Simon Coveney

With regard to the Government's commitment to put in place a new foreign adoption agreement between Ireland and Vietnam, in respect of which the Minister returned from Vietnam last week, could the Tánaiste update the House for the sake of people seeking to adopt and who are waiting to hear the up-to-date position? Can they expect a new agreement to be in place this summer? Must they wait until the new session in September or can they expect a temporary agreement to be put in place allowing them to proceed with their adoptions? Many are half way through the adoption process.

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform promised a data protection Bill. Fine Gael published its own Data Protection (Disclosure) (Amendment) Bill, which became even more relevant following recent data protection breaches. Can we expect any developments in this regard in the autumn?

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

With regard to adoptions of children from Vietnam, I support the remarks of Deputy Coveney. The relevant legislation in this area is the Adoption Bill, which has passed through the Seanad but which has not yet been considered in the Dáil. Is it intended to put that legislation on hold? Many countries have not signed the Hague convention or do not have bilateral agreements; this is where the difficulty lies. It is not just an issue pertaining to Vietnam because the case of Ethiopia has also come to light. There is a long recess ahead, albeit not as long as it may have been in other years, during which we will not be able to deal with these issues. For the sake of the families in question, we need a response from the Tánaiste on behalf of the Government before the summer break.

The Tánaiste

With regard to adoption legislation, the Minister issued a press statement on the matter and travelled to Vietnam, which has a sovereign Government. The work in this regard is still in progress and a new overall agreement has not been finalised.

I am advised by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that a group is at present considering the data protection legislation and he is not yet in a position to give a final date for its introduction.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The Minister indicated that while families were waiting for a comprehensive new foreign adoption agreement between Ireland, Vietnam and other countries, the Government would consider putting in place an interim agreement such that families half way through the adoption process would be allowed to proceed. I want to know the position on this.

The Tánaiste

The question is completely out of order because it does not concern legislation.

Deputy Simon Coveney

It was promised by the Government.

The Tánaiste

I indicated there are ongoing discussions and I will ask the Minister to contact the Deputy directly.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

Several Bills have been and are to be guillotined this week. Earlier in the year, there were weeks during which we had hardly any legislation at all to discuss. In the next session, instead of the Government giving us a schedule of Bills, which is basically just a list of Bills and publication dates that may or may not have any relationship with reality, could it instead give us an actual timetable setting out the exact months in which promised Bills are to be dealt with and the number of days that will be allowed for considering them in each House? Can we deal with legislation from the beginning of the year so we can make progress in a paced way, thus preventing us from having to rush through legislation at the end of the year, as we have done this year?

The Tánaiste

That is a fair point. When I was in the backbenches the system was such that it was very difficult to prepare for debate within the House. Unfortunately, legislation does not always proceed as the Deputy desires but we will be cognisant of the fact that Deputies need a clear indication of the Bills that are to arise so that they can prepare accordingly.

When I first became a Member of this House in 1987, the discussion was on whether we should return from the recess before or after the Listowel races. We have now decided to be like Solomon and return during the middle of them, for which I apologise profusely to the Ceann Comhairle. We are sorry we will not be with him on that occasion. I thank him, the other Members and the staff for their work. Contrary to public opinion, the Government and Members of the Oireachtas will continue to work at the committees and perform their duties as public representatives during the recess. I wish Members well and hope everyone will have an opportunity to take some time off and enjoy family life. I thank the members of the media for their work on publicising what is debated in the House. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle looks forward to the break and I assume most of us will return fighting fit and exuberant to do the work that must be done before Christmas.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

We are ready for our autumn holiday in Donegal to witness the by-election in the Tánaiste's constituency.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy will be welcome to Donegal any day.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Indian summer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take the opportunity to reciprocate the good wishes extended by the party leaders and the Tánaiste. I offer my best wishes to all Members over the summer. I realise they will still be working in their constituencies and that the committees will be continuing their work. This has been a long and very difficult session and very often we worked late into the night. I thank the Members for their diligence, commitment and determination. I thank the Clerk, the staff of my office and staff of the Houses of the Oireachtas for their tremendous work over the course of this long session. In particular, I thank the staff for their co-operation with the public during the family weekend. I thank the Fourth Estate and wish it well throughout the summer months.

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