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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Oct 2009

Vol. 691 No. 1

National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, on Wednesday, 16 September 2009:
That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 2:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
Dáil Éireann declines to give the National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009 a Second Reading because:
1. The Government has published neither the Bacon report that underpins the NAMA proposal nor any proper analysis of this enormous initiative in terms of:
a. The enormous risks for taxpayers of using a dubious and politically influenced valuation methodology to pay €90 billion for assets of highly uncertain long-term value;
b. The growing doubts regarding its impact on bank lending;
c. The growing concerns from creating a secretive, politically directed, state-managed, tax funded work-out process for 1,500 property developers.
2. The Government has not facilitated a review by the Oireachtas of independent analysis of alternative banking solutions which international evidence suggests are likely to be more effective at getting credit flowing, less costly and fairer for the taxpayer and less vulnerable to political manipulation and business lobbying.
— (Deputy Richard Bruton).

Is Bille rí-thábhachtach é seo. Mar a dúirt mo chomhghleacaí, an Teachta Morgan, nuair a bhí sé ag labhairt faoi seo, ní chóir go mbeadh sé os ár gcomhair in aon chor, ach tá sé ann. Tá deis agam impí ar an Rialtas, fiú ag an stad seo, é a tharraingt siar. Caithfidh an Rialtas éisteacht ceart a thabhairt do mholtaí na ndaoine ar cad ba chóir dúinn a dhéanamh leis an slám mór airgid a chuirfear ar strae má théimid síos bóthar NAMA.

Inné, d'eisigh mé preasráiteas mar gheall ar iad siúd le morgáistí. Dúirt an ESRI go mbeidh 35,000 duine i gcruachás maidir leis an morgáiste atá acu, ó thaobh a dtithe de, sa bhliain atá amach romhainn. Más fíor sin, tá fadhb mhór ag teacht romhainn sa Stát seo muna dhéanaimid rud éigin chun déanamh cinnte de nach mbeidh 35,000 teach gafa ag na bainc nó na comhlachtaí morgáistí a thug iad sin dóibh. Cuirfear 35,000 clann amach ar an sráid, os rud é nach féidir leo a morgáistí a íoc, muna dhéanaimid rud éigin. Dúirt mé gur chóir dúinn féachaint ar conas is féidir linn déileáil le seo i gceart.

This is not just about figures in the air and NAMA, but about real lives. Yesterday, the ESRI stated that 35,000 people would be unable to pay their mortgages next year. That is a shocking indictment of Government policies during the Celtic tiger years. People bought their homes at the height of the boom and they are not to blame for the situation in which they find themselves, struggling to maintain mortgages on what were once hyper-inflated properties. Yesterday's report is an indictment. In those years, successive Fianna Fáil-led Governments, the Central Bank and the management in those banks which are now before the Government with a begging bowl, encouraged people and forced families in many cases to pay hyper-inflated prices for their properties, or pay hyper-rents. There was no alternative, because the investment required for social housing was not there.

I disagree with the ESRI's suggestion that people who run into difficulties should have their mortgage rescheduled. Many of these people bought their properties in the last five or ten years. Many of them did so because the Central Bank allowed 100% mortgages and even 110% mortgages in some cases. These people now have a noose around their necks. They also have 35 to 40 year mortgages, because that option was encouraged to get everybody into the property market, as if the Celtic tiger would never slow down or never die. It is not an option for those with 35 or 40 year mortgages to re-mortgage. What will happen to them? There is no social housing to pick up the tab that the Government should have picked up. There is no empty social housing around the country which would take this up.

The banks that lent so recklessly and the developers who coined the money at the height of the boom should share the pain these people are facing. If people run into difficulties in repaying their mortgages, then an option could be to reduce the costs of the mortgage more in line with the actual value of the home. I did a quick calculation on some of the banks' submissions on NAMA and used a geographical breakdown to lift the number of mortgages in the Twenty-six Counties out of the figures that were presented to us by the Minister a few weeks ago. The total residential lending of the five banks covered by NAMA — I am excluding Anglo Irish Bank as it lent very little for residential mortgages — came to about €100.25 billion. If we accept that roughly one third of those people took their mortgages out in the last five or six years, then that comes to about €33 billion. We should set the banks a task of reducing all of those mortgages by 30% to make them affordable and to prevent families from defaulting on a mortgage. If those banks reduced those mortgages by 30%, we could set the conditions and limitations on this kind of renegotiations, so that it will only be for houses worth €600,000 or less. That is not a great cost when compared with what we are doing to bail out speculators and developers, but it would address huge problems that the State will be facing in the near future.

I remember when many people — myself included — gambled on the stock market through Eircom shares. We were all encouraged to take out Eircom shares, because it was a sure thing.

The Deputy made that choice.

I made that choice. I gambled, I suffered, I lost. These property developers gambled on a property market, yet the taxpayer is expected to bail them out. There was no bail out for shareholders in Eircom, yet we will bail out speculators like Liam Carroll, Sean Dunne and others we are getting to know as their court appearances take place.

I asked that Members who have shares in the banks declare their interests when speaking in the Dáil. I also asked that they should exclude themselves, because they have a vested interest in NAMA succeeding. To my knowledge, nobody has acknowledged that they have shares in the banks. Their excuse is that they publish their interests in the register of interests every year. That register of interests needs to be reviewed in a case like this where people have a vested interest in bailing out the banks so that their shares can go up and they can benefit. These are not small amounts of shares. These are shares that must be declared because they are valued at over €13,000 per annum. It is a simple thing to do. A Member should stand up and state that he or she has an interest, but would like to debate the Bill in the public interest.

There is significant misinformation coming from the Government about the figures on NAMA. The lie that NAMA will only pay €7 billion over the odds for the bad loans being bought back from the banks is truly shameful. The Government claims that NAMA is buying €77 billion worth of loans, but that the true value of these loans would be €88 billion. The developers who borrowed €77 billion actually bought €88 billion worth of property. They say those are the figures, but last week's "Prime Time" programme demonstrated that argument was nonsense and there was nothing we did not already know. In most cases the developers were getting deposits for the loans secured on properties from other banks. Therefore, the whole argument is incorrect. NAMA used a figure of €88 billion to work down to a figure of €47 billion to be paid by the State plus a further €7 billion. It says this has allowed a 47% drop in property prices and that is the value and we will all benefit from it, perhaps in ten years time. There are two problems with this argument.

The recent Liam Carroll-Zoe Developments case with the ACC Bank made the front pages when the Ceann Comhairle was not on them. The judge took the view that if the company sold all its properties in a fire sale, they would only sell for 25% of their value. This, therefore is their value. The State should take this figure of 25% as the value of bank properties because this is a fire sale. We should not pay more than what the courts are willing to accept. We should pay €22 billion maximum for these types of properties so that we do not end up having to force our property market to recreate a bubble to ensure we get a return benefit from the properties we acquire. Therefore, €22 billion is the figure we should pay.

If we accept that the NAMA legislation will pass and if it pays that €22 billion, that will leave us with €30 billion or so that the State was willing to throw away into speculators pockets that could be used for something else. I will put forward some radical but realistic suggestions for how that money could be used to benefit the State for the foreseeable future and underlie a basis for the new economy required for the country. Most Deputies have seen or received e-mails about a proposal termed Spirit of Ireland, a radical proposal to ensure security of energy. Energy security is a major issue throughout the world and every economy wants to ensure that when oil and fossil fuels run out or prices go out of kilter, they will have their own sources of energy. The Spirit of Ireland proposal would employ tens of thousands of people for up to ten years in the construction phase and also provide security of energy for the future. I urge the Government to consider investing this type of money into that project rather than into NAMA. The advantage of this would be we would not only get energy security, but would also make a profit which could then go to other projects.

Last week I listened to some of those involved in the roll-out of broadband. They said €4 billion — a significant amount — would underpin the knowledge and smart economy we are trying to develop. We could position ourselves well if that was rolled out properly and if investment was put into state-of-the-art broadband, rather than the hotchpotch type of broadband we have currently where one house can get it and the one next door cannot. The cost of approximately €4 billion would supply state-of-the-art broadband to every house, business and school in the country. This money could come from the saving made if the Minister did not take the ridiculous route of spending huge amounts that should not be spent on bailing out the banks. It could come from the €20 billion or €30 billion savings made if the Minister paid 25% rather than 47%.

We could also spend the savings on capital projects such as building proper schools, removing prefabs and finishing road projects and transport infrastructure that will help us become more dependent on public transport rather than on private cars which burn more fossil fuels. That is the type of investment required and a further benefit is that this creates employment. The Government may not be able to remember the benefits that come from creating employment as it is so long since it put a proper job creation project together. People pay tax when they are employed and they have extra money in their pockets to spend. The Government benefits again from their spending, through VAT returns and then suddenly we have an Exchequer benefiting from having people in employment rather than having to spend its money on dole queues.

I also propose the Government should set aside proper funds for seed capital. The current funding of €500 million or €200 million will not go far. If we are to invest and plan for the future, we need to put proper seed capital in place so that small and medium enterprises and indigenous companies can avail of money to help them get on the road to becoming profitable and paying back in corporation or other taxes in the future. Otherwise, they sit on their ideas and somebody somewhere else around the world will develop the idea and make the profits. These are practical proposals the Government should accept.

I said earlier there were two problems with regard to the Government using the figure of €88 billion to work down to €47 billion. The second problem is that the Government seems to assume that property prices have bottomed out. It assumes that everything will either stay the same for a while or start to rise. I do not understand the basis for this. If one reads the property pages, one sees prices are still coming down. If one watches auction prices, one sees prices still decreasing. Anybody who goes into areas where houses have been waiting to be sold for the past year and a half knows property prices are still going downwards and will continue to do so. The same is true for commercial and industrial property. The presumption of a rise is wrong.

We have 400,000 people on dole queues and that number is increasing. Where are the people who will buy the houses? The banks are not lending money for them, but apart from that more people are unemployed and therefore cannot afford or will not be allowed to avail of a mortgage. Also, people in insecure jobs or on three-day working weeks cannot take out mortgages. The dole queues do not include the people whose hours have been reduced slightly. Economists such as Morgan Kelly and David McWilliams do not believe prices have bottomed out. I agree and do not think we will see a bottoming out of prices for another year or so. At that stage, we will be very close to the 25% value the banks put on Liam Carroll's property. The figure of 25% is the value we should consider if we are going down the NAMA road to ensure the best value for money is obtained by the State. The additional money the Government was willing to spend or throw away on NAMA should be spent on projects such as those I have mentioned.

In addition, some 36% of NAMA's loans will solely be on land. Land values have fallen even faster and further than property values, particularly where there is nothing on the land. If over one third of the bad loans are on land, the 30% discount is even further away from the ballpark figure. I will deal with the issue of land value further on Committee Stage.

I wish to raise a number of questions with regard to local authorities, which are owed millions of euro by companies on development lands. The local authorities had planned to spend this money, but where will it come from now? Can they go to NAMA and look for their development levies? There is also an issue with regard to derelict sites. For example, in Dublin the local authority can proceed through derelict sites legislation and compulsorily purchase land that is empty. If land that becomes the property of NAMA remains derelict can local authorities compulsorily purchase it from NAMA, which is not the State? What happens to major projects such as the Cherry Orchard regeneration project? That is totally stalled because the plan was based on lands which will probably now end up in NAMA. That means that everything in Cherry Orchard will grind to a halt until such time as somebody sells off the land NAMA will take and starts to invest and build on it.

There are enormous problems in relation to NAMA and major questions which I do not believe the Government will be able to address.

I wish to share time with Deputy Máire Hoctor, with the permission of the House.

Before Deputy Ó Snodaigh leaves the Chamber, I do not have any bank shares, so to take him up on his point, I have declared that straight up.

Go raibh maith agat.

He can see the rest of my contribution on the monitor. I did not buy Eircom shares, either.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important legislation as regards the NAMA Bill. I want to take up a couple of points that were raised by Deputy Ó Snodaigh. This is not a question, and never has been, of a bailout for developers, builders or banks. This is about the real economy. NAMA is about getting the flow of credit back into the real economy. It has been lost on much of the commentary that every cent owed to a bank now remains owed under NAMA. NAMA is not purchasing the properties, but rather taking the loans. It is not a question of writing off loans or doing anything like that. As regards what happened to Zoe Developments in the courts this week, NAMA would have taken an exactly similar approach. Anyone with a non-performing loan such as that would be shut down, too. In that context it is important to note that the valuation that the Minister gave in his speech a couple of weeks ago was an estimate. Before a loan can be transferred to NAMA it will be individually valued and it is crucially important that people know that. If a piece of land is currently zoned residential, for instance, and there is no prospect of it ever being developed, it will be purchased at agricultural prices. It is as simple as that, so we are not overpaying for assets. We actually cannot overpay for the loans because this is against EU state aid rules. This process has been agreed with the European Commission as well, so it is not as if the Government has acted alone.

The Government has looked at different types of options including nationalisation and various issues such as that. The very last thing we want to do is to immediately nationalise. Straightaway, we would probably have to pay compensation of approximately €4 billion to bank shareholders before anything could be done or any capital could be injected into the banks. Another point not dealt with properly by commentators, who have not given it the credit it is due, is the fact that NAMA is not a bad bank. Both performing and non-performing loans will come into its portfolio and approximately 45% of the loans to be transferred to NAMA are fully performing. The others are stress loans. In that regard Deputy Ó Snodaigh referred to a 25% valuation. That type of thinking would automatically bring about a fire sale. That is what this is about. Nobody in the economy or on the street wants a fire sale of properties across the board. We have to be able to manage this process well.

It is not a question that anyone wants to do this, but rather a fact that it has to be done, for the good of the real economy, including the 1.8 million or 1.9 million people working in it and the viable businesses that all Members of the House know cannot access credit. This is a continuing problem. The choices to be made were either to allow the banks five to ten years to trade through their problems, while every other business in the country was being strangled by having their overdrafts cut, being unable to access credit and not being able to trade properly. The knock-on effect of this is that invoices are paid later and the flow of cash slows down. We saw that in the report last week on average values. Only one in five invoices is being paid within a 30-day period and the reason is that viable businesses cannot access cash.

The importance of NAMA and what the Government is proposing cannot be overstated. I expect there will be amendments on Committee Stage and I hope the Opposition will engage in a responsible manner in this regard — with viable amendments. One aspect I should particularly like to see dealt with is lending to the business sector, especially the SMEs. Where possible this should be tied into the legislation on Committee Stage. Most people will see the problems businesses encounter on a daily basis. These need to be addressed. The longer businesses are functioning without proper access to credit, the more difficult will it be for recovery. It is clear from the figures that NAMA will pay for itself.

NAMA is not a massive gamble. It has been established in other states and will work well here. Events this time next year will show that. With regard to the idea of a recovery bank as proposed by Fine Gael in particular, one aspect that is forgotten in that process is the loans that are sitting on the books. There is no proposal to deal with them——

It is a matter of getting credit to where it is needed.

Deputy O'Brien, without interruption now.

——with €2 billion, Fine Gael is effectively saying.

What about the €30 billion or €40 billion from the ECB?

The ECB has not even agreed the process. This process is agreed.

Will the Deputy please address the Chair? Deputy Flanagan will have an opportunity in a few minutes to give his side of the argument, as will Deputy Clune. I ask them to allow the Deputy to continue, please.

I hope that the engagement that happens with the Opposition on Committee Stage will give rise to some viable amendments being tabled. Everyone agrees we have a problem that has to be dealt with and we cannot just allow it to sit. Nationalisation should be the very last thing we do, because it would cost the taxpayer more.

The Fine Gael proposal does not stack up. The proposal that stacks up is the National Asset Management Agency. What is crucial, however, and what people on the street need to see is the effect it has in the real economy. People need to see credit flowing back again. It is not just about saving the banks but rather a matter of boosting the economy.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh earlier mentioned the ESRI report and one can look at yesterday's Central Bank report on the economy. There are signs in the economy that things are bottoming out. Exports are performing very well in Ireland as compared to our European partners. It looks as if the new rates of unemployment have fallen dramatically. It is incumbent on us as a Government and Members of the Dáil to ensure that people who have recently lost their jobs are looked after and that we provide opportunities for them to get back into the workforce as quickly as possible. The way to do this is to have a viable functioning economy. The lifeblood of any economy is a functioning viable banking system whether we like it or not, we have to deal with this matter.

In the Government's view NAMA is the only way forward. Independent economic commentators, including the IMF and the European Central Bank have endorsed these proposals, and at this stage they must be quickly implemented to ensure that within a short space of time those businesses that are being strangled by the banks can access the funds they require to keep employing people and to trade in the real economy. That is what this about, not about banks or bankers per se. I ask the Opposition to look at the Government’s record in this regard. Take the bank guarantee scheme, which, Fine Gael in fairness supported. This has brought in about €1 billion to the Exchequer. It is not a free lunch for the banks. The recapitalisation, as well, came with an 8% coupon and preference shares in AIB and Bank of Ireland to the tune of about €560 million. Already with the uplift in the share values the Exchequer is better off by more than €2 billion. It is not a question of giving anyone a free lunch in this regard. We are dealing with the situation decisively. I ask people to look at the issue in the cold light of day. Since the credit crunch happened, not just in Ireland but across the world, every other country is dealing with a variation of the problems we have at present. The Government has acted decisively and it has been proven in regard to the bank guarantee scheme and the recapitalisation that, effectively, our proposals and policies were correct.

This is about real people, not banks. It is about the 1.9 million people who are at work in this country and about those who have lost their jobs and ensuring that we give them hope. The clearest point is that we will come through this recession and move on from it. Lessons need to be learned, particularly with regard to the regulator and the Central Bank, and the type of lending that took place previously. These are the issues with which we must grapple.

Táim an-bhuíoch don Chathaoirleach as ucht deis a thabhairt dom labhairt os comhair an Tí inniu faoin mBille stairiúil seo. I thank the Acting Chairman for the opportunity to address the House. This Bill has been raised by my constituents with such frequency in the past few weeks that it demonstrates their serious concern at the content of the legislation. I am certain we could not have anticipated 18 months ago the plans laid forth in this Bill, the global banking system having suffered its most serious upheaval in nearly a century. We in Ireland have been uniquely affected by the economic meltdown and we require unique measures to revive the economy here.

Like all the Deputies in the House, I have over the past number of months received many letters, e-mails and phone calls about NAMA. Many of the people who communicated with me were angry with the bankers and developers, and at the seemingly unchecked speculation and gambling, whereas, as they see it, the State has been left to foot the bill to clean up the mess which the private sector cannot or will not undertake itself. I fully understand and appreciate this anger. It is important for my constituents to know that I have heard their justifiable fury over the recklessness which has lead us to this juncture, particularly as a Fianna Fáil Deputy who supports the establishment of NAMA.

Unfortunately, indignation over the causes of the banking crisis, and with regard to where the responsibility firmly lies, does not amount to a policy to restore the banking system. In the simplest terms, the Minister's proposal is to create an agency with the commercial aim of realising and recovering loans on a mixture of lands and properties over an extended period of time. The aim is simply to free the banks of these loans so that they may release credit into the economy to enable commercial credit to flow once again. Over the next nine to ten months, NAMA will individually examine each of the loans it takes from the banks — performing and toxic; house and apartment; and for zoned, commercial and development land both in Ireland, the UK and beyond. The function of NAMA is to manage these loans and in time afford the properties the best exposure and secure the best price for the taxpayer. After all, this is all about the taxpayer.

This plan is not without risk. The amount of real equity share in some of the properties taken to be managed by NAMA and the projected rise in property prices over the next eight to ten years will be critical factors as the agency proceeds with its work. Nevertheless, because the agency proposes to take on performing and toxic loans on different varieties of development, commercial and residential property, the result will be a diverse property portfolio in which some properties and assets will realise more quickly than others. This should ensure that the Exchequer breaks even over the lifetime of NAMA and that the taxpayer does not carry the burden.

The past three months have seen positive news coming from France, Germany and the United States and, though it would be premature to say that the recession in those countries has passed, it has been cautiously predicted that a return to growth will occur in the second half of 2010. When recovery begins in the US and the eurozone, Ireland must be in a position to participate in business and to hit the ground running, and a functioning banking system will be an essential component of our economic recovery.

The banking system may have further hurdles to overcome and there is the possibility of further recapitalisations as well as bank mergers or takeovers, which may occur over the next year. Be that as it may, we cannot continue with ineffective banks. The reluctance to lend is strangling small enterprises and farmers everywhere. Individuals and businesses which have for decades enjoyed good standing in our high street commercial banks cannot now secure the credit lines which are utterly essential to continuing business operations. The NAMA proposal will fully address this while balancing the risk sharing element with a proportion of subordinated debt to offset any possible losses the agency may incur.

I take this opportunity to voice my concern at reports that farmers may be hit by the so-called windfall tax rate of 80% on land zoned and acquired under CPO. As the House is aware, many farmers with lands adjacent to towns or along the routes of new major roads have had parts of their farms rezoned by local authorities for housing or bought by CPO for roadway development. In both cases, this happens outside the control of the landowners themselves. We need to draw a distinction in this legislation between the farmer who is selling his or her lands voluntarily for development and the farmer who has been informed that a council or the NRA is about to acquire a portion of his or her lands. It seems manifestly unfair to treat the two situations as one and the same. The proposed 80% windfall tax is extremely high and it makes it difficult if not impossible for farmers to realise the development value of lands which they may wish to sell for housing or for some other use.

Section 155 of the Bill allows the agency to compulsorily acquire property if it is deemed necessary but, essentially, this gives NAMA the power to acquire additional land by CPO where the purchase significantly increases the sale price of the land already held by the authority. Take, for example, the farmer who has land in his or her possession which has access to a development site owned by NAMA. That farmer then could be forced to sell this land to NAMA in order to maximise the value of the development site. While we would expect that every effort should be made by NAMA to reach agreement with the farmer on a price, if this was not reached by agreement, NAMA could then proceed to issue a CPO to the farmer, who would be subject to an enormous bill not of his or her making.

The 80% capital gains tax proposed in the legislation would no doubt discourage the sale of land in rural Ireland, which may prove an obstacle for future development of farming by new and young farmers who wish to succeed in the long term. This would also be the case for the town or city dweller who may have property in the pathway of, for example, the Luas, and who, through no choice of his or her own, may have to surrender his or her property for the common good overall, but who at the same time may be subject to that 80% tax, which I believe is unfair. I urge the Minister to ensure that this heavy tax levy is drafted in legislation in such a way as to protect farmers, landowners or property owners who are subject to compulsory purchase orders.

I welcome the appointment of Professor Patrick Honohan as the new Governor of the Central Bank. I hope his appointment will help to restore trust in the banking system. In the course of our debates in this House on the NAMA legislation, it is both timely and appropriate to revisit the issue of regulation, corporate responsibility and checks and balances in the financial system in general. The National Asset Management Agency is being born out of necessity caused by and in the aftermath of the recklessness engendered by lax regulatory oversight and sheer irresponsibility. I sincerely hope the new Governor of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator will scrutinise more closely the dealings of our banks in future. The people of Ireland are angered most by the practices and shortcuts that have made this legislation necessary.

I compliment the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, his officials and the Attorney General on this legislation. It can be of no surprise to them that these measures are being watched closely in Europe and on the wider international stage. The reception of the National Asset Management Agency has been positive and the innovations to the general model well received.

I wish to share time with Deputy Terence Flanagan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Through NAMA, the Government on behalf of the taxpayer has accepted the responsibility to pick up the tab for the banks and the many developers who gambled on the property bubble and lost. NAMA is just the latest reckless proposal from a Government with a track record of wasteful spending. From PPARS to electronic voting and FÁS, which is currently under discussion in the House and in the PAC, not to mention ministerial expenses, the Government has treated the public purse with disdain. A decade of reckless Government policies has weakened Ireland to the extent that the global economic crisis is being felt more severely here than almost anywhere else.

What makes NAMA different from what has gone before is not that it is reckless or potentially wasteful, it is the scale of taxpayers' money that the Government is willing to risk to bail out careless, greedy and reckless activities. The NAMA scheme is a bailout that allows the Government overpay for the assets it purchases on behalf of the taxpayer. It will pay €54 billion for loans worth an estimated €47 billion. The taxpayer will overpay the banks by at least €7 billion and possibly much more. As previous speakers indicated, property values are still falling and nobody knows when or where they will bottom out. Many of the loans that will be taken over by NAMA involve half-built buildings and development land that has now been reduced to agricultural value. Nobody knows where things stand yet the Government proposes to overpay for properties based on its estimate of the current market value. There is no current market value for some of the properties involved.

To put the matter in perspective, the €54 billion cost of NAMA amounts to a contribution of €12,273 from every man, woman and child in the country to help the banks and developers with their property gambling problems. The sum of €54 billion could pay for 208 Croke Parks, 72 port tunnels or 11 metros. In the 36 years since Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 it has received €61 billion in transfer payments from Europe.

The scale of the sums of money involved in the NAMA scheme has helped confuse almost everyone but the system itself is pretty straightforward when explained in everyday terms. Let us imagine it in terms of purchasing a house where an agent has been employed by a purchaser. The agent has identified a house which at the height of the property boom was valued at €770,000. In today's falling market the best estimate is that it is worth €470,000 and probably less. The agent offer the owners €540,000 for the house, substantially above the current market value. The agent made this offer for two reasons; he or she knows the current owners are in financial difficulty and want to help them out and, he or she believes that house prices will increase in the future. The results of the transaction are that the owners of the house cannot believe their luck and jump at the opportunity to sell the house for an amount well above what it is worth. The purchaser gets a house which is worth far less than what they have paid for it. The agent has put the interests of the owners ahead of his or her client. In the case of NAMA the ripped-off purchaser is the Irish taxpayer. The delighted owners are the bankers and developers who gambled on the property market and lost but are now being bailed out. The untrustworthy agents are the Ministers who have put the interests of bankers and developers ahead of their employers, the Irish people.

The Government's NAMA proposal has the potential to financially cripple the country. It unfairly asks the taxpayer to take responsibility for the reckless actions of others. NAMA is not guaranteed to get credit flowing. By the Government's own admission NAMA will over-pay the banks by €7 billion. The vast majority of the loans to be taken on by NAMA are for land or development projects whose values may have fallen by well in excess of the Minister for Finance's estimates. In some cases land was bought at hugely inflated prices because it had development potential but now it only has potential as agricultural land. In those cases such land could be worth only 10% or 20% of the NAMA loan value.

Most of the loans, perhaps more than 60% of them, which NAMA will own are non-performing loans. In the current climate it is impossible to see how the developers who owe that money will be able to repay it. What the Government does about those loans and developers will become an issue almost immediately. For the scheme to work the new agency must be more effective at recovering loans from the developers than the banks have been. We will be dependent on a Fianna Fáil-led Government to ensure a State agency actively pursues people who just over a year ago were regular supporters of the Government. In November 2008 an IMF report found that government-owned assets management companies were largely ineffective in resolving distressed assets, largely due to political and legal constraints. Why are we expecting things in Ireland under this Government to be any different?

The Government has failed to fully consider the impact of interest rate increases upon NAMA. If over the next ten years the ECB rate, currently at 1%, averages the 3.8% expected by financial markets the average funding cost of NAMA will be 4.3%. Such an increase would cost the taxpayer an extra €15 billion. The Green Party promised that its Ministers would fight at the Cabinet table to ensure a fair system of risk sharing to protect the taxpayer. We see from the Minister for Finance's proposals that the risk sharing element will be a mere 5% — a fig leaf figure to cover any Green blushes. A 5% risk sharing element in NAMA is next to nothing, which is roughly about the amount of influence Green Ministers have at the Cabinet table.

The most important issue at this stage for the economy is that we get credit flowing. Everyone across the House appears to be in agreement on that point. Unemployment is at record levels. Available credit is needed to protect existing jobs and create new ones. The NAMA scheme is based on the Government's belief that the transfer of this vast amount of wealth from the taxpayer to the banks will encourage those banks to start lending again. We have seen no guarantee that this will happen. The banks are as likely to use this money to pay off their own liabilities to other banks and the international money market as they are to provide extra lending to help economic recovery. Each bank's number one priority is not the recovery of the economy but its own survival. Where the best interests of the Irish economy come into conflict with the best interests of the banks there will only ever be one winner under the NAMA scheme. The €36 billion from NAMA that will be paid to Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide will be of little benefit to the economy and may not result in even a single new loan being issued. NAMA may provide banks with the funds to allow them to issue loans but it does nothing to guarantee they will issue new loans.

Yesterday, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment heard a presentation from the Electrical Manufacturers and Distributors Association of Ireland, EMDA, which is connected to the construction industry. It outlined the difficulties its members are currently facing. It stated:

On the purchasing side, the perception of Ireland is of great importance. With our reputation suffering severely over the past 12 to 18 months, some European suppliers are no longer extending credit facilities to Irish importers and are demanding to be paid up-front, often despite decades of fruitful business relationships. The diminishing Irish reputation, especially where it is connected to the building sector, also has a negative effect on the availability of credit insurance.

In one case a company had its credit insurance reduced from €1 million to €100,000. That is one example of how small and medium business enterprises throughout the country are suffering. We hear such stories frequently now. Overdraft facilities are not available to businesses, credit facilities have been reduced and the cost of overdrafts has been increased. There is no guarantee that NAMA will get credit flowing into the economy.

There is an alternative, namely Fine Gael's proposal for the establishment of a good bank — a national recovery bank — funded by the European Central Bank. In October 2008 the French Government established a similar state guaranteed wholesale bank to provide funding to French businesses allowing them to protect existing jobs and create new jobs. That approach has many advantages as it would get credit flowing immediately, inject new lending into the economy without delay, and help to stimulate job creation. Instead of buying toxic development loans at a highly uncertain value it would focus on high quality loans directly linked to new jobs and economic recovery. Such a bank could be open for business in a matter of weeks. It would be less of a risk for the taxpayer. An investment of €2 billion would leverage €20 billion of new lending funded by the ECB. That would ensure a functioning banking system that would deliver credit to struggling businesses and households.

Despite what the Government would like everyone to believe NAMA is not the only option. It is a high risk gamble with taxpayers' money, a bailout for those bankers and developers who were reckless and greedy. Despite promises, there is no guarantee of credit flowing to the economy, which is desperately needed if we are to begin the long road to recovery. The Government's proposal offers no guarantee that this will happen.

The collapse of our banking system can partly be attributed to a regulator who was asleep on the job and poor regulation in the banking sector. Both the Governor of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator failed to monitor the actions of the banks over many years because of the cosy and close relationship that developed between them. From the country's point of view it is important that a full investigation takes place to find out how and why this happened. We must ensure our banks are adequately regulated in future to prevent something like this happening again. In that regard I am a little surprised that in the Government's legislative programme under section C, the heads of a Bill relating to changing the regulation of banks have not even been agreed. That Bill must be fast-tracked immediately to ensure the current situation does not happen again.

Fianna Fáil and the Green Party are seeking to establish NAMA to solve the banking crisis and to get credit flowing again in the economy. However, there is no guarantee. Our party leader, Deputy Enda Kenny, asked the Taoiseach today if he could give a guarantee that credit would flow again under the NAMA proposal but the Taoiseach, yet again, did not answer the question. NAMA is a costly exercise and that is the main reason Fine Gael totally opposes proceeding with it. It is a €54 billion gamble. It is taking out a mortgage that is guaranteed by taxpayers' money to buy toxic developers' loans from banks. A premium of €7 billion is being paid over the market value.

The total values that have been given are very dubious. It is hard to see how the figures being bandied about are credible, particularly when the property market is continuing to fall. We know from the Daft.ie website, for example, that property values nationwide have fallen by 4.6% over the last quarter of July, August and September. This has definitely not been factored into the figures that have been presented to us. The figures are not credible.

NAMA is a massive gamble for numerous reasons. In a falling market it is not possible to put a realistic value on development land and property. It is ludicrous to purchase development loans in a falling market. It is a gamble too far, and involves the taxpayer taking 95% of the risk while the banks only take 5% of the risk through the subordinated bonds. That is clearly inequitable and must be changed immediately. The public is not in favour of NAMA. This arose on the doorsteps when we canvassed on the Lisbon treaty. One got it in the neck that people are totally opposed to it. The Irish Times/MRBI poll of 5 September showed that only one in four people supported the Government’s NAMA proposal. We have also been bombarded with correspondence from ordinary members of the public who are really concerned about the major risk being taken.

Under the legislation, if NAMA makes a loss there is no provision for a levy to be applied to the banking sector. The banks will again get off the hook if this is not included in the legislation. No cash flow analysis was provided by the Minister for Finance in his presentation on NAMA. That creates little confidence that the Government has done its homework on this issue. We must see what the cash flows will be over NAMA's proposed life span of ten years, although I expect it will last a good deal longer. The rate of interest quoted by the Minister was 1.5%. He did not clarify that it is a variable rate of interest. Interest rates will increase in the long term so it will clearly cost taxpayers a great deal more. This is a major oversight. We must have the facts and see the projected cash flows and how the Government envisages NAMA working. Taxpayers need that. There must be some form of accountability to taxpayers. They need to know what will happen in the future. Falling rents are also not factored into the dubious figures we have been given.

As Deputy Clune pointed out, Fine Gael has an alternative proposal, which is to set up a national recovery bank. This would guarantee that money would get to businesses immediately and get them functioning properly again. It would only take between four and six weeks to get the recovery bank up and running. This would leave the banks responsible for undertaking the reckless lending to take the risk. They would have to fix up their balance sheets rather than have the taxpayer bail them out. We would give the banks until the end of the guarantee period in September 2010 to repair their balance sheets. If they failed to do that, we would separate the banks into a good bank and bad banks. The private investors who took the risk and invested in the banks would take the hit rather than the taxpayer. In fact, the taxpayer would have very little exposure. The State would have to put €2 billion up front and would seek between €30 billion and €40 billion from the European Central Bank. This makes it a very credible proposal if it were pursued.

Many businesses have gone to the wall as a result of being cash starved. Fine Gael's proposal would create a small number of jobs, which are badly needed in the current climate. There is a huge information deficit in the public domain about how NAMA will operate for the next ten years. It will distort property prices. The taxpayer will buy property not just here but in other countries. Many people have major concerns about that. That situation must be clarified.

Regarding the secrecy, there is no transparency with this proposal. We are concerned that the Freedom of Information Act will not apply fully to NAMA. It should apply so there is full transparency. There can be no cover-up with NAMA, and no sweetheart deals with property developers. In the fullness of time, the information about the deals that will be struck by NAMA must be publicly known so people can have a certain level of confidence that this proposal works correctly. The proposal to remove 25 directors from the banks does not go far enough, particularly if the new regulation of the banking system is not put in place immediately.

An agency similar to NAMA was adopted in France in the 1990s. It failed spectacularly, with the loss of €15 billion of French taxpayers' money. The French Government decided to do a U-turn and set up a recovery bank. We can learn from other countries' failings. It is not too late for this Government to do a U-turn and adopt the proposal to set up a national recovery bank. In advance of the Oireachtas committee meeting on 31 August, Deputy Richard Bruton set out Fine Gael's position and what core corrections and principles must be adopted for NAMA to be successful. Unfortunately, the Government did not listen to him. The risk sharing element should be split 50:50 between the banks and the taxpayers, rather than the taxpayers taking 95% of the risk. That is wrong. There must also be guidelines from NAMA as to how it will deal with developers who are in default on their loans.

The legislation does not mention homeowners or the protection of homeowners at risk of repossession. A total of 100,000 homeowners are in negative equity and the ESRI stated yesterday that 35% of these are at risk of being unable to meet their mortgage repayments next year. Conveniently, this is not being discussed. We must look at how other countries deal with the repossession crisis. There must be a social dividend.

We on this side of the House totally oppose the NAMA proposal. On 31 August, Deputy Bruton set out the core principles the National Asset Management Agency must adopt to help improve the situation. I have no doubt the Fine Gael Party will table many amendments to the legislation.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009. Introducing the legislation, the Minister for Finance indicated that the National Asset Management Agency will purchase a loan book valued at approximately €77 billion for approximately €54 billion. The figure of €77 billion is broken down as follows: Allied Irish Banks, €24 billion; Anglo Irish Bank, €28 billion; Bank of Ireland, €16 billion; the Educational Building Society, €1 billion; and Irish Nationwide Building Society, €8 billion. The Minister noted that it is projected that 36% of the assets will be land, 28% development property and 36% associated commercial loans. Many of the commercial loans were for normal lending purposes and not confined to property.

The Minister also noted that it is estimated that 40% of the loans NAMA will acquire are cash flow producing. As such, repayments are being made on these loans and the cash flow produced will be sufficient to cover interest payments on NAMA bonds and operating costs. I raise this because many people believe NAMA will only acquire bad loans. The agency will acquire all property loans, both good and bad, above a certain level. It will do so for the good reason that many developers have a mixture of good and bad loans and the highly complicated nature of many loan structures would make it impossible to separate paying and non-paying loans. Acquiring all loans has the advantage of keeping the property portfolio together, while producing a positive cash flow for the National Asset Management Agency from the outset. It is important to note that all activities in the banks' property portfolios are covered by NAMA.

The geographical breakdown of the loans to be acquired by the National Asset Management Agency is as follows — approximately two thirds are in the Republic of Ireland; one fifth is in Great Britain; 6% are in Northern Ireland; and most of the remainder are in the United States and other parts of Europe. As each of the loans must be valued individually in accordance with the valuation methodology, the estimate of the price to be paid for the assets is provisional. It is anticipated that NAMA will pay approximately €54 billion for the loans.

Those who argue the banks are getting off scot free may have been confused by the sums involved in the debate about the National Asset Management Agency. A child in second class could work out that if NAMA is expected to pay €54 billion for loans with a book value of €77 billion, the banks must write down €23 billion from their loan book. Before the process even commences, the banks are required to remove €23 billion from their balance sheets.

The suggestion that NAMA will acquire loans at their original book value is daft. I will be generous and assume that people have not understood that the banks will be forced to accept losses of €23 billion in their balance sheets. This write-down requirement could cause significant difficulties for the banks and may result in further problems. The banks are taking the biggest loss up-front, as will be clear from their audited accounts when they are published next year which will show that loans initially valued at €77 billion with a valuation of at most €54 billion. The first hit will be in the balance sheets of the banks involved in the NAMA process.

A further misapprehension is that the State will borrow €54 billion with no return. We will get assets and property with an underlying value of €47 billion. The maximum exposure, therefore, is €7 billion. In addition, a bank levy may be introduced later in the process if a shortfall arises. It is important that people realise that the maximum value of the hit the Government, through NAMA, will take is €7 billion. If it does not recover this amount, a levy will be imposed on the banks which are already taking a €23 billion write-down before the process even commences. This basic point has been missed by most people. This oversight is fair enough given the complexity of the legislation.

I welcome the Bill, in particular, the decision by the Minister in July to seek public comment on an early draft. A number of amendments were made before publication and the legislation remains essentially a work in progress. While many amendments and improvements must be made to the Bill, its basic premise is a good one.

Anyone who argues the NAMA process does not carry a risk is fooling himself. At the same time, one takes a risk when one gets out of bed or crosses the road. Life is not risk-free and it would be foolish to pretend there is not a risk attached to the NAMA proposal. We should measure the risk by being aware that doing nothing would be much more harmful to the economy. The Labour Party proposal for blanket nationalisation is daft. The Irish people do not want nationalisation, which must be a last resort. We have taken shares and options in the banks and have been forced to nationalise Anglo Irish Bank. Immediate nationalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland when such a measure may not be necessary would be irresponsible. However, depending on economic circumstances, the Government may have to increase its share in these banks.

I will not even discuss the Fine Gael Party proposal for a magic bank.

It makes sense.

Someone must have been taking magic mushrooms when the Fine Gael proposal was produced as it does not make sense. While it would be great if the magic bank would work, we must live in the real world.

In introducing the legislation, the Minister pointed out that we must address the health and stability of the banking system to ensure the credit required by the economy is provided. As it stands, the legislation is deficient in this regard. I hope detailed provisions will be included before the Bill completes its passage through the Oireachtas to ensure credit becomes available. The Bill deals with the stability of the banking system by removing the banks' property loans and arranging for them to receive a major cash injection.

I disagree with many of my colleagues in that I regard the establishment of NAMA as a bailout for the banking system.

That is interesting.

It is not, however, a bailout for builders or developers, all of whom must repay their loans. Why are we bailing out the banking system? Without functioning banks, people cannot receive their wages or social welfare payments, buy bread, milk or butter or pay their mortgages or mobile phone bills. Without access to cash, people cannot live. Access to a banking system in a modern economy is equivalent to access to electricity. A banking system is a basic infrastructure required in an economy.

The barter economy was replaced centuries ago. People need cash in their pockets to meet their weekly requirements and send their children to school. Without access to a functioning banking system we would be in a dreadful situation. It would be almost akin to not having electricity. Those who believe one can operate without a banking system are living in cuckoo land. As is the case with banking, we would have to intervene if something happened to the electricity system.

The Deputy may as well go the whole way and say we are bailing out the developers.

Deputy Burke will have an opportunity to speak.

I am merely encouraging Deputy Fleming to admit the Government is bailing out the builders.

I am concerned that the €23 billion hit to the banks' balance sheets may cause severe financial difficulties and perhaps solvency problems for some of them. As has been stated throughout this process, the banks may require additional funds. Further capitalisation may be required either through the taxpayer or the banks' own resources, whether as a result of reorganisation or the disposal of non-core activities. I am concerned to ensure that any agreement signed between the Government or National Asset Management Agency and the banks will require that a large proportion of any such additional funds be made available for lending in the domestic market. It is no use for the banks to get that money, put it in their balance sheets, steady their own situations and bide their time for a year or two until the economy improves and not lend it out in the meantime. I would also be worried when they get this large cash injection, because any institution anywhere in the world that has a large cash deposit will be a takeover target for international banks and institutions.

The Deputy was not in to see a bank manager.

If in doubt leave it out.

It is important that money is lent out to Irish businesses and not left sitting as a temptation for foreign companies to come in and take over some Irish banks after the Irish taxpayer has put funds into them.

One issue which was raised outside this House — this is my first opportunity to mention it here — is the role of the Minister outlined in section 122, which refers to the powers assigned to the Minister under this Bill and which would be more properly carried out by a judge in the Commercial Court or the High Court. We have all seen the excellent activities of judges in the High Court, the Commercial Court and the Supreme Court who implement legislation strictly which was passed by these Houses on companies who have been trying ducks and drakes with the financial system in Ireland. They have been getting answers.

The people of Ireland would have far more confidence in the final arbiter of valuation of any asset in the event of a dispute between individual banks and NAMA. I and the people would be much happier, and the Minister would be better off, if he was not directly involved in any role in the process because there would always be an allegation of political involvement in it. The best way to ensure that does not happen is to make provision in the Bill that in the event of a dispute, the case goes to the Four Courts to people who have more experience in dealing with complicated property transactions than anybody in the Department of Finance, who would be called upon to advise the Minister for Finance on this issue, could possibly have. It would increase public transparency and would remove the suggestion that has been made in many quarters of a close relationship between politicians, the banks and the construction industry. It would be good for everybody concerned if we could do that.

The Minister will be responsible to this House for NAMA and will, ultimately, be the largest shareholder in the individual banks. It would be a conflict of interest for any Minister or Government to be involved in the valuation process when they have responsibility for NAMA and the banks.

Did the Deputy tell him that?

I have told him and I hope the point will be taken on board.

Many years ago we set up tribunals and a decade later they are still ongoing. We are setting up NAMA and I am sure in decades to come it will still be in place. Ministers of Finance will deal with NAMA through its lifetime and during the next decade or so. Inevitably the current Minister will not be in place during the entire period and there will be changes in personnel over the decades. It is clear from this House that Ministers who are hostile to the NAMA Bill and the banks will be dealing with them at a future date and it would be wrong at that stage that a Minister who is hostile to the process was in any way involved in dealing with the valuation process. It would be better to take this Minister and all future Ministers out of this role. It would remove them from the process and would be a far more independent and transparent way of doing it. People would agree with that.

Another matter I ask the Minister to consider in the Bill is the statement that NAMA shall not be regulated by the Central Bank. That should be changed. Too many senior people in recent years were paid out of the public purse while they were asleep at the wheel when they were meant to be dealing with financial matters and regulation. We must ensure this does not happen with NAMA. Most companies which are regulated by the financial regulator take in deposits and pay out loans.

A typical hire purchase company is not currently regulated by the regulator — that might not be well known — because all it does is take in wholesale loans and give out loans for cars, televisions or whatever, but when it does not take deposits from the public it is not regulated by the Financial Regulator. It was set up initially to protect people who put deposits in banks. The regulator does not deal with any institutions which do not take deposits. NAMA will not be taking deposits rather, it will be taking over loans from the banks and the Bill specifically excludes this from financial regulation.

I ask for that matter to be reconsidered because excluding any organisation dealing with €70 billion of bank loans and underlying assets from regulation is not the way forward and it would be important, in the public interest, that there be some independent financial regulation. Loans worth €77 billion are too much responsibility to give to one chief executive or a board of directors with four, five, six, nine or ten members. Apart from debates in this House it is also important that the public is happy to know there is an independent Financial Regulator. I am not referring to the type of regulation we had in the past, but proper regulation which needs to happen in the future and which we have not been accustomed to in recent times.

I agree with proposal of the Minister that every single director of every bank that was in situ on 30 September last year when they got the State guarantee on their deposits must go. Not one can be left in place. It is not personal; I do not know who they are but——

The Minister promised that but it did not happen.

It will happen as part of the regulations in this Bill, as far as I understand. The people of Ireland have a slightly jaundiced view of the banks. People should remember that a long time ago the Insurance Corporation of Ireland debacle resulted in the Government bailing out AIB. There was no change at the top of the bank so it carried on in its merry way and we then found a few years later, as a result of a great enquiry undertaken in the Oireachtas by the Committee of Public Accounts chaired by the late Jim Mitchell, that the banks were the main organisers and participants in the largest tax dodging scheme in the history of the State through the deposit interest retention tax scheme and offshore accounts. The major banks in Ireland had to pay back more than £100 million in unpaid tax that they had facilitated.

After that, the mistake the Government at the time made — I forget who was in Government but it applies even if some of my colleagues were in Government — was that it did not make changes to the boards at the top levels of the banks. If we do not do it now we are telling the banks they should carry on their merry way and in another ten or 15 years' time they can do the same thing again. We have to force a cultural change in the bank and the best way of doing that is for every single director to go, otherwise we are saying everything is okay, something we cannot do.

I ask NAMA to dispose of the good loans which are being repaid. If they are coming in at full value and there are no problems, it should not be a problem for NAMA to off-load them as quickly as possible internationally to other financial institutions who will take over their management. That will produce a massive cash injection for NAMA early on in its proceedings. It will reduce the exposure for the taxpayer. The public of Ireland will see that some of these loans are producing real cash up front. We have no business setting up a State agency whose sole function will be to collect debts on good loans while another institution could be doing it on an international basis, once it pays NAMA for the value of doing that.

It goes without saying that there must be strong provisions in the legislation to prevent people from dealing with property that comes under NAMA who have defaulted on previous loans. If somebody has a business which goes bust he or she is free to start again, but those whose assets have gone into NAMA, who have defaulted on NAMA, have gone through the courts, are found to have defaulted and ultimately do not pay their debts to NAMA, which will be the Irish taxpayer, should not be allowed to buy assets from NAMA two, three, four or five years on at a knock-down price. They will have done the taxpayer once and should not get the opportunity to do it a second time.

For a period of ten years NAMA should have to give its consent for the future and onward sale of any of its properties to ensure they never go to anybody who is a current defaulter of NAMA. The local councils have such a system in place, where if one buys a council house, one is supposed to get permission from the local authority before selling it on again. It is normal procedure for the original owner of the property to have the right to give consent and it would be very important to have such a measure in place. The Revenue Commissioners are very concerned about phoenix companies, that is, people who change companies and set up a new one. They stated they did not have sufficient powers to deal with the issue and the situation needs to be examined to make sure NAMA does not become the victim of phoenix directors.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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