Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 2009

Vol. 697 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 41a, Budget Statement and the financial motions by the Minister for Finance, to be taken on the conclusion of questions to members of the Government. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and the motion for the general financial resolution shall be moved not later than 12 midnight whereupon business shall then be interrupted and the Dáil shall adjourn forthwith; and, following the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance, the following arrangements shall apply in relation to the proceedings on No. 41a: the statements of the main spokespersons for Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin shall not exceed 45 minutes, following the statements the sitting shall be suspended for 30 minutes and all divisions demanded on No. 41a shall be taken manually.

Private Members' business shall be No. 60, Dublin Docklands Development Authority (Amendment) Bill 2009 — Second Stage (resumed), to be taken at 12 noon and to conclude after 90 minutes, if not previously concluded.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. and the motion for the general financial resolution shall be moved not later than 12 midnight, whereupon business shall then be interrupted and the Dáil shall adjourn forthwith, agreed to?

Deputy Enda Kenny

I have a couple of questions on the proposal. When will we be given information on the grouping of votes which will depend on the contents of the Minister for Finance's Budget Statement? The Minister will commence his statement at 3.45 p.m. and speak for between 30 and 45 minutes. When will we be in possession of information on the grouping of votes that may take place later? If the Dáil gets to midnight without collapse — some of the Taoiseach's people are nervous that it will not — will the social welfare Bill be published afterwards? If it will be taken tomorrow after the leaders make their contributions on the budget, does the Taoiseach expect us to agree to his breaking a time-honoured rule that one publishes a Bill and leaves some period between Second Stage and the completion of the Bill? Will we have a situation where the Bill is published on the day it will be taken and rammed through before the weekend? Will the Taoiseach inform me when will we have the information about the groupings of votes? Is it proposed to publish the social welfare Bill after the question is put at midnight?

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Labour Party will not agree to any Order of Business until the format proposed by the Government for the social welfare Bill is changed. The format as proposed excludes the possibility of dealing with the Bill as set out under Standing Orders. For example, under Standing Order 123 which deals with amendments, amendments to the social welfare Bill, if it is to be taken as indicated by Government, should have been lodged in the Ceann Comhairle's office or the questions office at 11 a.m. on Tuesday last. That is not a possibility. Will the Ceann Comhairle be flexible in accepting amendments to the social welfare Bill and will he accept amendments up to and during Committee Stage of the Bill, given the proposal from the Government? The Labour Party will not agree to this. The only reason the social welfare Bill will not be taken as promised to the Whips — that is, next week — is the fear of the Government that its backbenchers will falter under the weight of public opinion arising from what is in the Bill.

Deputy James Bannon

There is more money as it is.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

That is the only reason the Bill is being taken and we will oppose the Order of Business until the Government changes its tune on this.

Deputy Joe Costello

We are all looking for leads.

An Ceann Comhairle

I advise the Deputy that we have some discretion on the issue of taking amendments.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

This is why I call on the Ceann Comhairle to be flexible.

The Taoiseach

To answer Deputy Kenny's question first, the grouping of resolutions or the way in which we take them will be agreed at the Whips meeting at 7 p.m. this evening. The social welfare Bill will be published after the Budget Statement has been issued. It will be later on this evening.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Will it be after the Budget Statement or the vote?

The Taoiseach

I can get the Whip to confirm the actual time but it will be later on this evening.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach cannot confirm that the statement of the Minister will be agreed if the House does not vote at midnight.

The Taoiseach

We can issue the Bill any time. My understanding is the publication of the Bill will not be dependent on taking a vote.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach will not be able to put it through at all if it does not get to midnight or if, for example, some people kick the traces over there. Perhaps the Taoiseach is very confident.

The Taoiseach

We are confident enough, no more than the Deputy himself.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Is the Taoiseach fully confident?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Is Deputy Mattie McGrath on-side?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with the late sitting be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 69.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Chris.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Aylward, Bobby.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Áine.
• Brady, Cyprian.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Browne, John.
• Byrne, Thomas.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Carey, Pat.
• Collins, Niall.
• Conlon, Margaret.
• Connick, Seán.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cregan, John.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Michael.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Healy-Rae, Jackie.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kennedy, Michael.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• McDaid, James.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• Mansergh, Martin.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Brien, Darragh.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Hanlon, Rory.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Edward.
• O’Rourke, Mary.
• O’Sullivan, Christy.
• Power, Peter.
• Power, Seán.
• Roche, Dick.
• Ryan, Eamon.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Scanlon, Eamon.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Mary.
• White, Mary Alexandra.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Bannon, James.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burke, Ulick.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Carey, Joe.
• Clune, Deirdre.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Coonan, Noel J.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• D’Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Hayes, Brian.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lee, George.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Morgan, Arthur.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Noonan, Michael.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Donnell, Kieran.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Mahony, John.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• O’Sullivan, Maureen.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Sheahan, Tom.
• Sheehan, P. J.
• Sherlock, Seán.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Upton, Mary.
• Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 41a, Budget Statement and financial motions by the Minister for Finance, agreed to?

Deputy Emmet Stagg

As I indicated on the previous issue, the Labour Party will not agree to the Order of Business until changes are made to the Government proposal for dealing with the social welfare Bill. For example, the format for the Bill as proposed minimises the possibility of this House debating the various sections on Committee Stage. It is designed to minimise it. We will be asking the Chief Whip and the Government to change that format to allow a proper Committee Stage debate on Friday, even in the limited time that is available. We cannot agree to the current proposal. We were assured that the Bill would be taken next week. The unions were not the only ones that were deceived by the Government last week. We were misled in that regard as well. We need flexibility from the Ceann Comhairle on Standing Order 123 or there will be no debate on the Bill.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 41a be agreed to”, put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal that all divisions demanded on No. 41a be taken manually agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

The Ceann Comhairle may recall that on the occasion of the last budget, there was an unseemly but necessary disruption of business at the start of the speech of the Minister for Finance. Members, who are elected to this House, were deprived of information and given a lecture about what to do with the budget documentation while at the same time, members of the Press Gallery were given documents in advance. As a former Minister for Finance, I would say it is in nobody's interest and it is not in the interest of any side of this House that we have a repetition of last year's farce. On behalf of all Members, I ask the Ceann Comhairle's office to ensure this matter is dealt with in an orderly and proper way.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are fully aware of the problem that arose and it is the intention it will not recur this time.