Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jan 2010

Vol. 700 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The House should note the passing of Mr. Pádraig MacKernan, an outstanding public official who served his country well in the Department of Foreign Affairs. In the diplomatic service he dealt with issues that are very relevant to the discussions that are going on today. The House should note his contribution to Irish life and public service.

The Taoiseach is currently engaged in critical discussions with the British Prime Minister and parties in Northern Ireland in respect of the issues that are outstanding. In many ways these issues go back to the conclusion of the talks at St. Andrews more than three years ago, which were concluded between both governments. Not having had the full imprimatur of all the parties at that time, some outstanding issues remained which are now the subject of today's discussions in Northern Ireland. Human rights, Irish language legislation, the Parades Commission and the devolution of policing are all central to those discussions.

Will the Tánaiste convey to the Taoiseach that Fine Gael stands four-square behind the Government's efforts to have the Good Friday Agreement implemented in full? It is in the interests of every person on this island, irrespective of background, creed or politics, to have an island at peace with itself so that communities can get on with their lives. I say that as Leader of the Opposition and if the people so decide in due course that we should be in Government, that priority will still be the same. We stand four-square behind the efforts of the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and their officials to see that the Good Friday Agreement is implemented in full.

I have received no briefing from any Government officials about the details of the ongoing discussions, but I can well imagine the nature of those talks. I again ask the Tánaiste to convey to the Taoiseach and all the parties in Northern Ireland, ahead of the plenary session at noon, that Fine Gael is serious about our island economy and people being able to compete as a small but central member of an enlarged European Union. This island faces serious economic and social challenges. It also faces challenges as regards our participation in Europe and that of others. In so far as she can, the Tánaiste may wish to provide an update on the discussions up to 5.30 a.m. this morning.

The Tánaiste

Sílim go bhfuil an Teach d'aonghuth chun comhbhrón a ghabháil le clann Phádraig MacKernan. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.

I welcome the Leader of the Opposition's remarks. As he will appreciate, it has been difficult to get a briefing arising from the fact that meetings continued until early this morning. However, the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister, Mr. Gordon Brown, are continuing meetings today to try to encourage the parties in Northern Ireland to complete the transfer of policing and justice powers. They are trying to finalise the blueprint that would resolve the parades issue as well. Contacts at official and political level have intensified in recent weeks with a view to assisting parties in Northern Ireland to resolve the remaining few issues and advance the full implementation of the Good Friday and St. Andrews agreements. As the Deputy said, these agreements remain the bedrock of peace and stability on these islands.

On 1 December 2009, the relevant legislation was passed to devolve the Department of Justice. The First Minister and Deputy First Minister have launched the process of identifying the future Minister for Justice. The significant financial package of £800 million, which was brokered by the Prime Minister, Mr. Gordon Brown, continues to offer a secure basis for completion of the outstanding work. Both Governments remain determined in their ongoing efforts to support the early devolution of policing and justice powers and the wider political process in Northern Ireland. I will have an opportunity to speak to the Taoiseach prior to continuing his talks, and I will brief him on the Deputy's remarks.

Deputy Enda Kenny

If the Taoiseach is short of supplies up there, the Tánaiste can tell him that we can come to his assistance.

Deputy John Cregan

Is the Deputy suggesting that he should go up there?

Deputy Enda Kenny

The question of the Parades Commission is obviously a sensitive one. There were discussions for years about having that matter taken out of the realm of the police and politics. For all its faults, the commission brought a degree of commonsense and pragmatism to the parades issue. I hope that whatever compromise is to be arrived at can be reached in that regard.

Given the economic challenges our country faces, we should be acutely aware and vigilant about the recruitment drive now going on for dissident republicans. The Tánaiste is well aware of the catastrophic implications of at least three 600-lb. bombs that were placed in various locations in the North. Those plans were disrupted by good contacts between the PSNI and the Garda Síochána. I am happy to agree with the comments that the level of co-operation and intelligence sharing between both police forces is at an all-time high. That is as it should be.

With regard to comments made this morning by the Garda Commissioner in respect of Garda facilities, these obviously could be improved. I suggest to the Tánaiste that this matter must be brought to the highest level, not just to Secretary of State level, but to Prime Minister level. This is not an issue with which one can fool around. At a time of economic depression here, where emigration is back on the agenda and hundreds of thousands of young people face unemployment, this country is a ripe feeding ground for dissidents who have no other ambition or aim but to disrupt normal life on this island. I offer the Tánaiste and the Government the fullest support possible in dealing with intelligence and vigilance and a diversion from that kind of activity by recruitment into work and through the creation of employment. This is the answer to much of that. I would like the Tánaiste to take seriously the fact that we are acutely aware of just how disruptive this activity is for the reputation of this island, lives on this island and the economic prosperity of all our peoples. It is imperative that recruitment among dissident republicans, which is ongoing as we speak, is thwarted and dealt with in the way it should be by the forces of law and order and by common sense from Government. I would like the Tánaiste to convey this message to the Taoiseach.

The Tánaiste

In the context of parades, I do not want to make a public comment on matters that have not been brought to finality. However, the art of politics is to obtain compromise and the parties are certainly forthright enough to ensure we can bring matters to finality for the better interests of the people of this island, North and South. As a Border Deputy, I am aware of the issues that arise in the context of dissidents. The Government, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda will continue their resolve, working with the PSNI, to ensure that people are apprehended. The sharing of intelligence has been superb and there is a very close working relationship between the Garda and the PSNI at all levels. We have a Garda Force of 14,500 which will continue to ensure the issue of dissidents is dealt with. At a political level, I welcome the resolve of all parties to ensure there is no political support for such people.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I join the Tánaiste and Deputy Kenny in paying tribute to the late Pádraig MacKernan for his outstanding work as Secretary General of the Department of Foreign Affairs and his work as an ambassador and diplomat for this country over many years. I sympathise with his family and friends.

Yesterday, we heard the stories of some of the low-paid public servants and about how they are trying to get by following the unfair pay cuts imposed on them by Fianna Fáil and the Green Party in the recent budget. We heard the story, for example, of Mary Duffy who is a clerical officer in the Department of Education and Science in Tullamore. Her husband has lost his job and his jobseeker's benefit has now run out. We heard how that family is now trying to get by on Mary's pay of €451 per week and how they had to hand back the key of their house. They are now living in rented accommodation and paying a rent of €625 per month. As a result of the pension levy which was imposed last year and the cut in pay which was imposed by the budget, Mary's pay has been cut by €77 per week. Meanwhile, the Government did a sweetheart deal for some of the more senior officers of Mary's Department and other Departments, people who are paid six or seven times what she is paid.

Mary Duffy and her colleagues have been subject for a year or more to a vulgar campaign of abuse demeaning the work they do and demoralising those who do it.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I have two questions for the Tánaiste on this. Does she think it is fair that Mary Duffy should take a cut of €77 in her pay while those in her Department who are paid six or seven times what she is paid should have a sweetheart arrangement made for them by the Government during the Christmas period? Also, will the Tánaiste answer the question she did not answer yesterday when I asked her about this matter? Will she give Mary Duffy a straight answer as to whether her pay will be cut a third time by the Government?

The Tánaiste

In the strongest terms possible, I refute any political accusation that the Government in any way has a vulgar campaign against the public servants of this country.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Oh yes it has. The public service has been denigrated for the past two years.

The Tánaiste

Under no circumstances will I accept that. We, and all Members, have always had the highest regard for our public servants.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Government has a funny way of showing that.

The Tánaiste

We want to ensure that our public servants have sustainable employment and that our economy has the wherewithal to ensure that happens. That has not been the circumstance in the context of the economic change that has taken place here. We have not had a sustainable situation with regard to our public finances. It was on that basis we had to make such difficult decisions.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

That is not Mary Duffy's story.

The Tánaiste

It is on that basis we made the decisions, although we very much appreciate the difficulties this has for our public servants. We also appreciate the fact there are so many people unemployed. It is on that basis that the scarce resources we have are being targeted at those who need that type of support——

A Deputy

There is no fairness.

The Tánaiste

——and at creating activation measures and innovative ways through which we can ensure the skills needs of the country are met. It is important to point out that many people here have found work as a consequence of the supports they have been given.

Deputy Joan Burton

The employment rate is falling.

The Tánaiste

I have just come from making an announcement of 103 new jobs in the digital hub and we announced 125 jobs yesterday. We have a strong flow of inward investment in this country which is hugely important. Deputy Burton's constituency has benefited immensely and immeasurably from the investments made by the Government in attracting foreign direct investment.

Deputy Joan Burton

That is because of the hard work of people like me.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption please.

The Tánaiste

I look forward to visiting the Deputy's constituency in the near future for the further advancement of employment opportunities.

With regard to the pay and conditions of assistant secretaries, the review body on higher level pay indicated that the bonus was indicatively part of their salary.

Deputy Joan Burton

Indicatively, what does that mean? Is this reality we are discussing?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption please.

The Tánaiste

The Minister accepted that a further reduction that would equal a reduction of 20% would be disproportionate. However, that does not take from the view, and I reiterate what I said yesterday, that nobody on this side of the House, nor the other side, is in a position to say what adjustments are needed in the context of next year's budget. However, our clear view is that public sector reform is for the benefit of the citizens of the country. Arising from public sector reform, we can find savings which can be taken into consideration in the context of the adjustments we may need next year.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Tánaiste has not answered either of the questions I put to her. The first question I asked was: Is it fair that a low-paid worker like Mary Duffy should take a cut of €77 a week while senior people in her Department and other Departments had a special arrangement made for them by the Government after the legislation was passed? My second question is not unreasonable. Low-paid workers like Mary Duffy have taken two pay cuts already in the past year. My simple question is, will the Government give an assurance they will not have to take a third? It is instructive that the Tánaiste has not given me a straight answer on that. The answer she did give me was inaccurate. The Government encouraged a campaign of abuse and vilification of public servants.

Deputy Darragh O’Brien

Absolute rubbish.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Yes, it did. The first person sent out to do so was former Minister of State Deputy John McGuinness. I recommend to Members that they read again some of the very abusive terms he used to describe people who try to do a decent day's work every day and who are certainly not valued. The Government did this and did so at arm's length and by way of the various spinning mechanisms it has developed. It did it to soften public opinion and soften public servants and so it could get away with cutting their pay in the December budget.

There is a huge number of unemployed people and the Government is doing very little to get them back to work or to get the economy moving again. Instead of engaging in productive investment to get people back to work, it is pumping billions of taxpayers' money into the banks because of the guarantee it gave to them.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Rubbish, rhetoric, nonsense.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

One of the people who is unemployed and who has lost her job is Ms Mary Duffy's husband. People who work in the public sector and who have taken a cut in their pay do not live on a different planet from those who work in the private sector who are losing their jobs and whose businesses are going to the wall.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

The Labour Party would print the money.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Will the Tánaiste give a straight answer to the question of whether it is fair that Ms Mary Duffy must accept a pay cut of €77 per week while higher-paid civil servants get a sweetheart deal from the Government? What is the Tánaiste's answer for Ms Duffy? Is her pay to be cut again?

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

Cut out the sweetheart deals.

The Tánaiste

I am disappointed the Deputy was not in a position to hear and understand what I had to say. I indicated to him——

Deputy Joan Burton

The Tánaiste should speak up and answer the question.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste has the floor. Will the Deputies please desist from interrupting?

The Tánaiste

I have said three times we are not in a position to give such undertakings. It would be completely wrong to give such an undertaking in January.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

The Government gave it to the banks.

The Tánaiste

When we talk about the smart economy, we should realise it is not just for the private sector but for the public sector also. It is about innovative ways of implementing change in the delivery of services to citizens.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Change for the worse.

The Tánaiste

We must proceed in a different way. Technology and new work practices will be employed so we can have a modern economy.

Deputy Joan Burton

What was the Government doing for the past 12 years?

The Tánaiste

We will do this only in the context of further reforms.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Why did the Government not do it over the past ten years?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Tánaiste without interruption.

The Tánaiste

Such reforms are absolutely necessary.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

So the assistant secretaries are doing all that.

The Tánaiste

When we applied pay reductions arising from the budget, they were applied in a progressive way, as with all other adjustments to public service pay. Thus, lower-paid public servants suffered a lower net loss in proportion to that suffered by those in the higher-paid public service grades.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

They could not afford the loss.

Deputy Joan Burton

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

Members should desist from interrupting.

The Tánaiste

That is not to say Members on every side of the House do not empathise with people facing serious difficulties. However, this side of the House is creating the wherewithal by which we will have stable public finances and a stable banking sector.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

As a consequence, we will have a platform for economic growth. This contrasts with the position on the other side of the House, where Members have disparate views on how it should be achieved.

An Ceann Comhairle

That completes Leaders' Questions.