Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 May 2010

Vol. 709 No. 1

Intoxicating Liquor (National Conference Centre) Bill 2010: Committee and Remaining Stages

SECTION 1

Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Deputy Charles Flanagan

I have a couple of questions in the matter of section 1, which is probably the most important section of the Bill. The Minister, in the course of his contribution, made reference to the fact that the convention centre will be run by a management company. I want him to clarify the position as regards the licence. This is not the licence that will issue in the normal course by the courts and I am assuming it will be for a nominee, for and on behalf of the management company. I am wondering about the exact relationship between the licence and the premises.

I invite the Minister to clarify whether the licence follows the premises. In other words, if the centre closes for a period of time, or even if it was to close, presumably the licence lapses. This is not a licence that can be transferred to any other premises, given the specific nature of it. Perhaps the Minister might clarify the legal position as to how the licence follows the premises.

On the matter of the difference between a convention event and a non-convention event, I suggest that there is an element of overlap because conference meetings, congresses or whatever tend to have definitions that more often than not are not clearly demarcated. Reading the definitions of "convention event" and "non-convention event", one can see a certain overlap. A convention event can be a dinner associated with a convention, while a non-convention event can be a dinner associated with a reception where, presumably, the reception will not of itself qualify as a convention event. I suggest this element of overlap could give rise to difficulties.

"Seminar" does not have the same important ring to it as "convention" or "conference". A seminar can be held with a small number of people. Yet if there is a banquet associated with a seminar, is it a convention event or a non-convention event? Must the seminar have a prescribed number of attendees? A seminar could have 20 attendees while the associated banquet could have 100, or even 5,000. That could be orchestrated to qualify as a convention event, which has a more liberal regime attached. I do not wish to prolong the proceedings, but these are important points that could give rise to some confusion.

The licence that will be granted will be an on-licence for the purposes of section 5 of the 1927 Act. Section 1 states that notwithstanding anything contained in the Licensing Acts 1833 to 2008, a licence issued or renewed under this section shall operate to authorise the sale of intoxicating liquor between certain hours when a convention is taking place. However, I am wondering about the prohibited hours we currently have — for example, on Sundays. It would appear that the sale of intoxicating liquor on the premises can take place irrespective of the day or date and dependent only the time of a convention. I ask the Minister to clarify the situation regarding Christmas Day and Good Friday, which have long been dates upon which the sale of intoxicating liquor is severely curtailed. The Bill does not make it entirely clear. If a convention is billed to take place over three days, commencing on what we would ordinarily refer to as Spy Wednesday — a particular Wednesday in March or April, depending on the moon — what is the position with regard to the sale of intoxicating liquor on the third day, which is Good Friday?

Under section 1(8), the fixed charge payable on renewal of the licence is €500. I would have thought that in the event of there being a general excise increase in licensing, that would also be subject to change. Yet under this legislation it appears to be fixed. Is this normal practice? I cannot really say "normal practice" because there is not a normal practice in this context.

I wonder why we need specific legislation for this. For example, if a new racecourse was opened, there would be no need to introduce a specific Act of Parliament to establish its licensing conditions; that can be done by order of the Revenue Commissioners. Yet for this centre, which, I grant the Minister, appears to be a one-off, there is no provision other than an Act of Parliament, which I find extraordinary.

My final question is with regard to the licence itself. Section 1(9) states that "A licence shall not be issued or renewed by the Revenue Commissioners under this section unless a tax clearance certificate [...] has been issued". This would appear to accord with the situation in licensing generally, in which the licence holder must produce a tax clearance certificate on an annual basis. Whose certificate is required? Is it the secretary of the company? Is it a person who is a nominee of the company? Is it the management company itself? With regard to renewal of the licence, is the tax clearance certificate to be produced on an annual basis or only on renewal?

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The purpose of the Bill is to authorise the sale of alcohol at the national conference centre. I too was interested in the point raised by Deputy Flanagan about the licence following the premises, but I will not go back over that territory. Do I understand that a licence must be applied for each time there is a qualifying event? If that is not the case, why does subsection (8) state——

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Deputy Dermot Ahern)

It is an annual licence.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

And the excise duty of €500 mentioned in subsection (8) is per annum?

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Yes.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

I was disappointed that the Minister was not able to give us any information about the application for an adjacent hotel, because it seems to be quite important. In Irish weather conditions, if the conference centre is to attract 4,000 barristers, who are usually well upholstered, from various countries across the world, will it require them to walk long distances from the conference centre, however splendid the facilities there, to get to their hotels? This might be an impediment to its efficient working. I know the Minister does not have responsibility for tourism and I am not trying to put him on the spot, but his officials must surely have some view on this.

Meanwhile, we have 15,000 hotel rooms which are surplus to requirements. In my own constituency, three hotels have closed down. What is the current opinion on that issue? It is not unreasonable to suggest, bearing in mind typical Irish weather, that reasonable proximity to hotel accommodation, more or less commensurate with the state-of-the-art facilities available at the conference centre, could be an issue. Notwithstanding the Minister's narrow remit of ensuring a pint of Guinness is available, or more exotic drinks for some of the more exotic visitors, there must be some view about the necessity of a hotel.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I will try to be brief, given the time. I have a number of issues on which I require clarification from the Minister.

I have raised on a number of occasions the titles of institutions and so on. Where section 1 of the Bill states " ‘Convention Centre' means the National Conference Centre", my preference would be " ‘Convention Centre' means an Lárionad Náisiúnta Comhdhála or, in the English language, the National Conference Centre". However, I will not push this issue to a vote. This would give an acronym of LINC, and we know that people remember acronyms. NCC does not really grab one, but LINC might.

The next definition in section 1 states: " ‘convention event' means a conference, congress, convention, seminar or symposium", but this does not include the word "meeting". Perhaps this word should be added to encompass gatherings of, for example, eight people. I do not know why it is not there.

It is also stated that "non-convention event" means a trade fair, live sporting event, reception, dinner or similar. Does this refer to a live sporting event within the conference centre or could it be a televised event? There are live sporting events on television continuously. This has implications with regard to the area being designated for alcohol and whether it will compete against other facilities in the area.

Concerts are not covered by the Bill either. This is not to say I want the conference centre to compete with the Point, the Grand Canal theatre or Croke Park etc., but it seems to be already competing with them in terms of the delivery of some services. Why, therefore, are concerts not included?

Like other Deputies, I do not understand why we need stand-alone legislation for the conference centre. Would the normal bar or theatre licence not cover it? What other stand-alone licences have been issued in this format? Perhaps the National Concert Hall might have such a licence, but I am not certain.

With regard to the hours, the legislation allows, for example, for the facility to be opened at 10.30 a.m. on a Sunday morning. Some clever people who might want an early drink might book a conference from 10.30 a.m. until 12.15 p.m. in order to bypass the current Sunday opening hours. The question of Good Friday and Christmas Day has already been mentioned.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

They could walk down to the early houses.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Yes, but not on a Sunday. With regard to remaining open for one hour after the conclusion of a conference, I am aware from having attended international conferences that it often takes an hour to get out of the hall in which the meeting was held. Therefore, an hour might not be sufficient. I suggest it should be a period of two hours, to allow people wind down after a conference. Otherwise, it should be indicated to the organisers of conferences that they need to factor the current provision into their arrangements.

I consider the duty of excise of €500 is low. Perhaps that should be re-examined, given the potential earnings from the projected 8,000 conference attendances.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Deputy Flanagan asked in whose name the licence would be held. Section 1(2) provides the licence shall be issued "on application to them being made in that behalf by the operator of the Convention Centre or a person nominated by such operator". This would, more than likely, be the nominee of the operator. It would be decided on an annual basis who would be the nominee to apply for the licence. Lest anyone think it can be, the licence cannot be transferred to other premises. However, it can be transferred to another nominee of the operator.

Deputy Flanagan also asked whether the prohibition on Good Fridays, Christmas Day or a Sunday would apply to the conference event. If a conference is being held and there is a conference event, the facility could, conceivably, be open on a Good Friday. However, if it was a non-conference event, it would not be open because the normal rules would apply.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Unless it was a Munster rugby match.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Such a provision was provided for in previous legislation. I had no problem with that, as long as the District or Circuit Court decided on it. With regard to the question of the duty, the sum is fixed in the legislation. However, it could be changed by the Finance Act. It is a standard provision to fix the sum in the legislation and, subsequently, to reconsider it.

Deputy Flanagan raised the issue of racecourses. If a racecourse is approved under the existing legislation regulating racecourses, it then has an automatic licence to sell intoxicating liquor during and around the time of the race event. It is unnecessary therefore to have special legislation for racecourses. I take the Deputy's point with regard to having separate Bills for the National Concert Hall and now the national convention centre. We propose, through the Sale of Alcohol Bill, to take care of this situation so that we will not have to come to the House on a piecemeal basis with separate pieces of legislation.

Deputy Rabbitte raised the issue of hotels. Well upholstered barristers would be more than pleased to hear the statistic that Dublin is now one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest, capitals in the world for hotel beds. The increase in the supply of hotel beds in this city is a good news story. Despite the suggestion that there is a surplus of hotel beds in the country, friends of mine abroad who wanted to come here for a rugby international could not get a bed next or near Dublin. The fact we have a lot of hotel beds has been a factor in the dramatic reduction of prices, but we still have excellent facilities.

I have no view with regard to the specific planning application for a hotel near the conference centre. It is a matter entirely for the promoters to decide whether they want to put their money into a proposal for that location. I suspect it would be a good proposition, given the proximity of the national conference centre. However, it is subject to planning applications. I wish them the best of luck.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

The issue is whether, having waited so long for this tourism infrastructure, it will be damaged by the absence, within reasonable proximity, of adequate hotel accommodation. That is the issue, rather than the cost of hotels.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I am not aware how close the major hotels are to the centre, but it is facilitated by the Luas line. Therefore, it will be accessible, all the way out to Tallaght as Deputy Harney says. Perhaps they will fill some of the fine hotels in Tallaght town centre.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The Luas does not go to the airport.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

That will happen eventually.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh asked about events. The event must be taking place in the centre and cannot be a football match or whatever outside. He also asked about concerts in the convention centre. The definition provided is that the convention event is a reception, dinner, banquet or stage event which is held as part of a conference. Therefore, it could conceivably be a concert. On the question of the hour after the event, the operator is satisfied with one hour. It is a reasonable period. Again, once the hour is over, the well upholstered barristers can drink in the local pubs, bringing business to the local area.

I propose to bring in the sale of alcohol Bill sooner rather than later. There have been suggestions that we should review opening hours with regard to the changes we made recently in the Oireachtas. I have received representations from various groups requesting the hours be returned to what they were and extended again. I am not prepared to change the hours. I am not aware whether representations have been made to the Deputies opposite on the issue. Despite the Armageddon suggested, the hours are reasonable. Deputy Upton raised a salient point — something I say in the presence of the Minister for Health and Children — on the issue of the availability of drink in the country and the damning statistics with regard to the level of alcohol use by the population.

That said, this is an important issue and we must deal with it. This convention centre would not be regarded as viable to compete for conventions throughout the world if it did not have the finest facilities, including intoxicating liquor facilities. That is why we are making provision in this respect.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 2 and 3 agreed to.

TITLE

Question proposed: "That the Title be the Title to the Bill."

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I have made the point previously that the Title should read, "AT THE LÁRIONAD NÁISIÚNTA COMHDHÁLA OR, IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, THE NATIONAL CONFERENCE CENTRE". That would make it stand out from other international conference centres.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

I have some sympathy with the Deputy with regard to its designation in the Irish language. However, given the fact that we are trying to target international business, it is probably more relevant to that market in English. I note the Deputy's point.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

An issue arose on the publication of this legislation as to whether it is the National Conference Centre or the National Convention Centre. The documentation and most recent brochures of the Department of Tourism, Culture and Sport refer to it as the National Convention Centre, yet the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform takes the view that it is the National Conference Centre. What is the reason for that?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The title is the Title of the Bill as opposed to the title of the centre, but it should be the same.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

Why does the Title of the Bill not accord with the title of the centre having regard to the fact that, as the Minister said in response to Deputy Rabbitte, the licence pertains exclusively to the convention centre? The licence will presumably issue to Joe Bloggs as nominee of the company that is authorised and has an estate or interest under the lease or agreement to run the National Convention Centre rather than the National Conference Centre.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

We are following what is in the PPP agreement, which refers to a conference centre. It will be marketed as a convention-conference centre worldwide. I do not believe there is a big issue in this regard.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.