Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Sep 2010

Vol. 717 No. 1

Adjournment Debate

Hospital Building Programme

Deputy Joe Costello

The construction of the new national paediatric hospital is an important issue that has been on the agenda for some time. The Government must move forward with this project. The site has been chosen following lengthy consultations on engineering logistics and health involving the Mater Hospital, the Rotunda Hospital and the children's hospitals. All of that is now complete and the recommendation was made by a qualified group of people to go for the Mater Hospital option.

That decision was taken some time ago. The Minister should now outline the timescale for the planning, construction and delivery of the children's hospital.

It is a long time since discussions took place on the upgrading of the children's hospitals. Crumlin Hospital, Temple Street Hospital and St. James's Hospital have never had state-of-the-art facilities. It is now more than 25 years since Temple Street Hospital was supposed to get a new facility in the grounds of the Mater Hospital and ten years since €400 million was put aside for that purpose. Planning applications were prepared and millions of euro spent on plans for the relocation of the children's hospital in Temple Street. Just as the tenders were about to be opened, the Minister for Health and Children put a stay on opening the tenders because the new given wisdom was that there should be a centralised national children's hospital.

The proposal now is to bypass the normal planning application process and to go for the new process under the legislation that allows for structures to directly to An Bord Pleanála on the grounds of strategic importance. There are some suggestions, however, that there could be further delays.

We should be told when the planning application will be submitted, how long it will take, how long construction will take and what has happened to the €400 million specifically put aside and never drawn down for Temple Street Children's Hospital. Is that now part of the €700 million that the existing national hospital will cost?

There are not many good things about a recession but a possible advantage is that construction costs will be cheaper, allowing the Government to get a better deal. This is the time to build. When we consider the tenet of the 1916 Proclamation that the children of the nation should be cherished equally, this would be a good monument to have up and running before we begin the centenary celebrations for 1916.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Deputy Barry Andrews)

The Government's priority is to provide the best standard of complex hospital care for children in Ireland. To further that priority the Government is fully committed to the construction of the new national paediatric hospital at the Mater Hospital site. We are also committed to providing the associated ambulatory and urgent care centre at Tallaght Hospital. This is an essential part of the overall development.

The new children's hospital will play a central role in an integrated network of paediatric services across Ireland. Merging the three Dublin paediatric hospitals into a single hospital structure will ensure a critical mass of specialised skills to provide highly complex treatment and care to sick children. It will also provide additional benefits for sub-specialisation and for developing campus-wide support services. The three hospitals are already collaborating with the Mater Hospital to maximise the potential for appropriate sharing of services across the Mater campus.

The Minister set up the national paediatric hospital development board in May 2007 to plan, design, build, furnish and equip the new national children's hospital. The board is making good progress in its work and that it is working intensively with the HSE to bring the project to fruition. The integrated design team, appointed in October 2009, has now completed the concept designs for both the new children's hospital and the ambulatory and urgent care centre at Tallaght.

The development board will shortly be applying for full planning permission for the hospital. The planning process will go ahead under the Planning and Development (Amendment) Act 2010, which will shortly be applied to major health infrastructural projects. There have been some claims that using this new provision will slow down the planning process for the National Children's Hospital. In fact, the Minister believes that it will help streamline the process, by a direct referral to An Bord Pleanála. Without the new Act, the hospital would first have to go through the relevant local authorities.

Clearly this is a major project, which we all want to put in place as soon as possible. The national paediatric hospital development board estimates that, subject to planning permission, the construction of the hospital will be completed by the end of 2014. The Minister has asked the development board and the HSE to ensure that the fit out and commissioning of the hospital takes place as soon as possible after this.

The full development is a very positive step forward for paediatric care in Ireland. The three existing children's hospitals in Dublin have been fully involved in the consultation process, as have all other relevant stakeholders, including children, their parents and academic institutions. This type of consultation will help ensure that the best possible decisions are made as we seek to deliver an optimal paediatric service for Ireland.

In preparation for the new hospital, the HSE has set up structures to coordinate and steer various aspects of this development working with the development board. Within this structure the HSE is working with the three hospitals involved to ensure that all current resources are utilised in the most efficient and effective manner possible. The Minister believes that significant cost savings are achievable if services and practices are more closely integrated, even before the building of a new paediatric hospital has been completed.

An up-to-date model of care which has also been developed for use in the new paediatric hospital. It is based on the delivery of contemporary healthcare and best practice standards for paediatric services. It provides a clear vision and direction for the provision of services to meet the future healthcare needs of children and young people in Ireland.

I am confident that we will meet our objective of providing a world class paediatric service for our children in the new national paediatric hospital.

Foster Care Services

Deputy Deirdre Clune

I wish to raise the serious concerns surrounding the report produced last weekend regarding deficiencies in the foster care service in the Cork region.

In 2009, HIQA announced it would inspect foster care services in four local areas in the HSE region, covering Cork city and county, north Lee and south Lee and north Cork and west Cork. These four areas were selected because they share a managerial operation for the provision of foster care. We have heard a lot in the media about children who are vulnerable and need a lot of care. We need to know the services of the State are there to ensure their protection. I acknowledge the report states that where services have been in contact with children, the results and outcomes are positive. The results and outcomes are good. The links with foster parents are there but there are serious deficiencies and gaps in the services. From reading the report, it would appear that most of these gaps come about as a result of inadequate staff provision in terms of those working directly with children and those supervising the staff. The report examined a sample of 48 children. In September last year, 690 children were placed with 452 foster carers in these areas. Some 36%, or 249, were placed with relative foster carers or family members and the balance, 64%, were placed with non-relatives.

There are some alarming facts in the report. At the beginning, HIQA was told that all children had been assigned a social worker. However, during the inspection fieldwork it became evident to inspectors that all children in care did not have an assigned social worker and that the non-allocation of social workers related to vacant social worker posts. This is particularly evident in the city areas of the north and south Lee of Cork city. Some 452 carers were approved as carers and 48 of those had not been assessed by a link social worker. Of the carers who had been officially approved, approximately 50 of them had not been properly assessed to ensure their suitability as carers.

Of the 43 children who were inspected in the sample group, 28% did not have a care plan and social workers had not visited approximately 33% of them for several years. These are very vulnerable children and we entrust their care to the HSE. It is responsible for their care, safeguarding their protection and ensuring that the correct governance and management structures are in place. There are numerous recommendations in the report. Many of them could be delivered if there was adequate staffing in the region. Does the embargo currently in place relate to those staffing posts?

I commend HIQA on the report which has shone a light on the inadequacies in foster care services in this region. I am sure we have come across the issue before and that it exists on a national basis, but I am particularly concerned with the results and outcome of the inspection into the Cork region.

Deputy Barry Andrews

I welcome the opportunity to reply to Deputy Clune. In general, the HSE is required under the Child Care Act 1991 to promote the welfare of children and there are a number of procedures under which the HSE take children into care. Foster care is the main source of alternative care provided by the HSE for children in care. As of July 2010, there were 5,877 children in the care of the State, the vast majority of whom were in foster care, one third with relatives. Government policy reflects the importance of the family and of a family setting for the overall well-being of children.

HIQA was established by the Government in order to ensure that there would be higher standards and that those standards would be met by the providers of services, including the HSE. HIQA has done an invaluable job in the various inspections and reports it has provided — I agree with Deputy Clune in that respect. It has shone a light into corners that had not been illuminated for many years. In September 2009, HIQA commenced an inspection of four areas in the Dublin north area. Its report in July 2010 highlighted very serious deficits in two of those areas. The deficits included the failure to provide an allocated social worker. Where social workers were allocated, however, there were positive findings regarding care planning and in the main children were receiving a good standard of care by dedicated and committed foster careers. The HSE submitted action plans to address all the issues raised. The recommendations are being implemented now and I had a meeting with the HSE this morning at which we went through some of the action plans which are being prepared in respect of Dublin and the findings in regard to Cork. Regular meetings have taken place between HIQA and the HSE since October 2009 to monitor and review progress. Inspectors will undertake follow up inspections to ensure the recommendations have been implemented.

There were calls during the week for a national audit of foster care. In fact, it began in 2009. The HSE undertook a national audit of compliance and published its report in May 2010. The audit showed that the majority of children were in receipt of services which were fully compliant with legislation, standards and good practice. However, in some areas children were not receiving an adequate statutory service. From the HSE's audit, it would seem that the problems encountered in Dublin north east were the most serious. An action plan is being implemented which will address the recommendations arising from the national audit.

The Ryan report, which has been adopted by the Government, recommended the recruitment of an additional 270 social workers by the end of 2011. The HSE has advised that 200 of these will be filled in the current year. The latest available information, which I received this morning, is that 177 have been filled and contracts have issued and further 23 posts have been accepted and are being processed. Some 54 of these posts are in the HSE Dublin north east area. A total of 36 staff have already commenced with a further six due to take up their posts in October and the remainder scheduled to be in post by the end of 2010.

On 27 September 2010 a report into four local health areas in HSE south, which Deputy Clune mentioned, was published by HIQA. The inspection concludes that there was evidence of good practice, and while there are deficiencies, in most cases it is due to the absence of an allocated social worker or the failure to assess foster carers and the absence of a care plan. However, national standards were met in regard to children having a positive sense of identity, maintaining contact with families and friends, and also children's rights. As part of the inspection process, birth parents of children in foster care were consulted and all told inspectors that they believed their children were safe in their foster care placements. Moreover, children told inspectors they had someone they could speak with if they had a worry or a concern.

All of the children in the sample group of 43, of whom inspectors met 34, were placed in or near their local communities. This facilitated maintaining friendships and continuity in school. Inspectors also found that siblings were placed together. In one instance, the inspector found that five siblings were placed with three general carers who were themselves related. This arrangement allowed for ongoing and informal contact between the children in a normal family context. Inspectors found that social workers showed a good awareness of the need for children to have contact with their parents and extended family and went to great lengths to ensure this occurred.

This is not to say that standards were met in all areas. There was a problem where the formal assessment of 48 of the 452 foster cares on the panel had not been concluded, as Deputy Clune pointed out. It is important to say that an initial assessment, including Garda and medical checks, had occurred. Inspectors also found that 25 of the 690 children in care did not at the time of the inspection have access to a social worker as their allocated social worker was on maternity or other leave. To answer the Deputy's question on the recruitment moratorium, social workers are exempt from it but in addition HSE south will receive pro rata its relevant number of staff. The HSE south has recently recruited new social workers. A total of 54 of the social worker posts prioritised for 2010 were allocated to HSE south. A total of 45 staff have already commenced employment with the remaining ten posts scheduled to be filled by the end of 2010.

While I understand fully the need to identify and resolve the problems for children in foster care, it is also essential that recognition is given to the thousands of foster carers nationally who, on a daily basis, give love and care to children in need, and through the stability of their homes and lives help children to grow and develop with confidence and hope. I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the good work across the majority of foster care services and to support the efforts of the HSE, foster carers and HIQA inspectors in striving to achieve the highest of standards in this area. I also wish to put on the record the work done by the Irish Foster Carers Association and the Irish Association of Young People in Care in advocating on behalf of children in care and giving them a voice.

Vetting Applications

Deputy Alan Shatter

I would like to start off by paying tribute to the gardaí and civilians working in the Central Garda Vetting Unit. They do a very important job and they do it extremely well. The problem we have at the moment, though, is that essentially they are overwhelmed. As a consequence of all the allegations of child abuse in recent years and the publicity rightly given to that area, far more bodies and groups are seeking the use of the vetting services. The service is in place essentially to ensure a person who is in employment that involves day-to-day dealings with children is vetted. Not only does this facility cover child care staff, social workers and teachers in schools, it also covers those working with children in a voluntary capacity, for example, in sports clubs. It is now possible for swimming, soccer and Gaelic games coaches, for example, to be vetted by the Garda vetting unit. There has been a substantial increase in the number of clubs and organisations using the service and in the number of people in respect of whom vetting is sought. A total of 187,864 vetting applications were made in 2007, but that figure had increased to 246,194 by 2009.

A number of people have contacted me to raise this issue. Some of them were in a position to start jobs working with children but found that many weeks were passing while they waited for vetting procedures to be adopted. I have spoken to people who are seeking to effect adoptions but are having to wait while the HSE works through the vetting process. People who have offered to do voluntary work in sports clubs have found weeks passing into months without vetting being conducted. It is quite extraordinary that, as I learned in response to a parliamentary question yesterday, as of this week there are 60,000 applicants whose vetting has not yet been completed. It is deplorable. We must provide a service that has the capacity to vet individuals within four weeks of vetting being sought. I accept there will be exceptions in this regard. If proper vetting is to be carried out on certain individuals, information may have to be sought from abroad. In such circumstances, it may not be possible to meet the four-week timeframe. Generally speaking, however, such a timeframe should be met in the cases of individuals who have spent their working lives in Ireland and are seeking full-time employment or offering to do voluntary work here. The blockage that exists means people are remaining unemployed for longer than they need to. As a result, the State is paying social welfare it does not need to pay and jobs that could be properly filled are not being filled. There is a need to appreciate that the vetting unit has a positive impact and should be able to do its important job within a reasonable period.

I understand that ten additional temporary staff have been recruited to the Garda vetting unit in recent weeks. That has happened because an enormous number of people are waiting for their vetting applications to be addressed. At no stage should the backlog of applicants have been allowed to reach 60,000. It is an extraordinary number. We have been informed that the average waiting time is 12 weeks, but that is simply not good enough. I am aware that 380 vetting applications from the HSE were awaiting Garda clearance on 30 August last. A number of them had been awaited for five months, since early 2010. Some of those who are seeking vetting clearance to obtain employment in the HSE are the social workers who are needed in our dysfunctional child care services. Such dysfunction is persisting not because of any fault of the staff of the vetting unit but because of the Government's failure to allow the Garda to recruit additional people in this area.

It is important that I conclude by mentioning that a number of individuals whose assessments for inter-country adoptions have been completed — the HSE is waiting to furnish the assessment reports to the Adoption Board — are waiting for vetting clearance. In many such cases, it is important that reports are sent to the board so it can make a declaration of suitability before 1 November next, when the Adoption Act 2010 will be commenced. If these people do not get a declaration of suitability before that date, they might not be able to adopt in foreign countries where they have been involved in planning adoptions over the past three to four years. It is of the utmost importance that vetting applications are dealt with, in general, within three to four weeks. It is of particular importance for priority to be given over the next week or so to the cohort of individuals whose vetting the HSE is seeking to have completed for the purposes of overseas adoption. If that does not happen, it will be impossible for the Adoption Board to deal with all the applications for declarations of suitability that will be required.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív)

I am replying on behalf of the Minister for Justice and Law Reform. I appreciate why Deputy Shatter has raised the matter. All Members of the House will be aware of the current pressures on the Garda vetting service as a result of the increased numbers of applications it is receiving. It may be helpful if I outline briefly the background to the system of Garda employment vetting that is in operation at present. The Garda central vetting unit provides employment vetting to a large number of organisations which are registered with the Garda for this purpose and which employ or engage people in a paid or voluntary capacity for posts where they would have substantial, unsupervised access to children or vulnerable adults. The unit releases criminal history information in respect of a person to the prospective recruiting organisation in response to a written request for vetting from a registered organisation. Such a request can only be made with the consent of the person in question. It is important to emphasise that Garda vetting is just one element of the overall recruitment process. A recruiting body or organisation should take a range of other factors into account when coming to a decision on a person's suitability.

The Garda employment vetting service has undergone significant expansion in recent years. This strategic expansion is taking place by means of a phased roll-out to an increasing number of organisations in the child and vulnerable adult care sectors. The House will understand that this target group is and must remain the clear policy priority. The Garda vetting unit has managed a significant growth in the number of vetting applications it receives to the point where it dealt with almost 250,000 applications last year, which represents an increase from 137,000 applications in 2006. The Garda authorities anticipate that approximately 325,000 applications will be made this year. Approximately 18,000 organisations, covering a wide range of health, educational, sporting and recreational sectors, receive vetting services from the Garda vetting unit. The demand for vetting is growing constantly. The Garda authorities deserve credit for achieving an expansion in the vetting service to bring it to its current levels. Significant pressures are affecting the delivery of the service in the current conditions. The Minister for Justice and Law Reform and the Garda authorities are working together to address them. The partnership approach the Garda authorities have adopted with the various organisations that avail of the service will help to ensure their vetting requirements can be addressed and the ongoing programme of expansion continued.

The average processing time for vetting applications fluctuates during the year as a result of seasonal demands, which can cause the volume of applications from certain sectors to increase greatly. In any individual case, additional time may be required to process a vetting application. Clarification or further information may be required or other inquiries may need to be made, for example, when the person in question has lived and worked abroad. The Garda authorities indicate that the average processing time for valid applications received at the vetting unit may vary from four to five weeks in periods of lower demand to approximately 12 weeks at times when demand is especially high, as is the case at present. The Garda central vetting unit has advised the registered organisations of the need to take the processing timeframe into account in their recruitment and selection processes. A reasonably significant time period will always be required to process a vetting application, given the nature of the checks which are needed and the importance of ensuring the process is carried out thoroughly. The Garda makes every effort to reduce this to the minimum period possible, consistent with carrying out the necessary checks.

Responsibility for the deployment of Garda personnel is an operational matter for the Garda Commissioner, taking into account all his requirements. From the outset of the expansion of the vetting service, significant additional resources have been deployed to the vetting unit. A total of 88 personnel are assigned to the vetting unit, including six gardaí and 82 Garda civilian personnel, including ten additional temporary personnel who were recruited in recent months to help to deal with the high volume of applications.

Taken in the aggregate, these figures represent a very significant increase in the level of personnel assigned to the vetting unit, which stood at only 13 before the current process of developing the Garda vetting service began in 2005. That being said, the Minister and the Garda authorities are determined that as effective a vetting system as possible is provided. In that context, the overall staffing arrangements at the vetting unit are under review at present in light of the increasing demands being made on the Garda vetting service by the registered organisations.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Will the Minister address the adoption issue that I raised?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I do not have any details on that. It was not that I——

Acting Chairman (Deputy Michael Kennedy)

I am not at liberty to allow any further debate.

Deputy Alan Shatter

This is why this process is such a waste of time. Ministers come here and deliver prepared scripts without being able to respond to issues raised.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Ministers do——

Acting Chairman (Deputy Michael Kennedy)

I apologise but I cannot allow any further debate on the issue.

Social Welfare Benefits

Deputy James Bannon

I am glad to see that the Minister for Social Protection is here this evening to take this very important Adjournment matter on carer's allowance.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I try always to take my own Adjournment debates.

Deputy James Bannon

Often, Ministers send in somebody else to deal with issues of importance, and I take Adjournment matters seriously and as being important to my constituents.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for affording me time to discuss this important matter, namely the need for the Minister for Social Protection to resolve the impasse on the carer's allowance which is, it appears, being deliberately withheld in certain cases to meet cost-cutting targets through a broadening of the eligibility parameters set for those who provide full-time care and have done so for a number of years.

While I do not want to point the finger at anyone in the administrative side of the Department as they merely follow orders, it appears to me that people who have given up a large part of their lives to look after elderly or infirm relatives, neighbours or friends are being very shabbily treated. These selfless workers, who perform a valuable service for the community and the State by saving the cost of residential care or home nursing, fail to get reasonable acknowledgement for their work. They are victims of cutbacks or deliberate stalling when it comes to payments.

I read an interesting comment, which sums up the feeling of the ever-increasing number of those who for no discernible reason have been refused a carer's allowance, and that comment is that the recession demands nothing less. Added to that could be the comment that the Government is a hard taskmaster when it is clawing back the money it squandered.

We still have a health sector that is top heavy. The excess layers remain, and will remain, untouched. They are the ones the system protects, the ones who have a strong union presence behind them. Not so the carers of this country; there is no protection for them.

At present, an estimated 350,000 people provide paid or unpaid care to those who are unable to care for themselves. A Central Statistics Office report on carers published in July this year shows that 8% of those over 15 in this country are providing unpaid care to dependent, disabled or chronically ill people. This percentage has risen from 4.9%, or 161,000, in 2006.

Interestingly, a Social Welfare Appeals Office report highlights that of the 25,963 appeals registered in 2009, 48% were decided in favour of the appellant. This figure would indicate a lack of reasonable criteria being issued to front line staff or, worse still, a deliberate policy of refusal and delay.

This worrying trend was recently highlighted by the Carers Association when addressing the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. Claims that would have been passed two years ago are now being refused. The basis of these refusals is the health of the people receiving care, even if their doctor has signed off on their ill-health.

It is particularly worrying that those coming off carer's benefit are being rejected for the allowance. Carer's benefit is paid for up to two years to people who leave the workforce to care for a person full-time but what happens then? If they are refused carer's allowance do they leave the person they are looking after without care or do they continue the care unpaid? This is hardly practical.

I am puzzled as to how the payment of a couple of hundred euro a week to a relative, friend or neighbour who is prepared to put his or her life on hold to look after an elderly parent or other person is not considered cost effective or efficient. Irish people returning from abroad to look after elderly relatives are being refused a carer's allowance because of the habitual residency condition. This is ridiculous and must be reviewed.

With 4% taken from carers in last December's budget, it is frightening to think what a Government in hock to the tune of €50 billion to Irish banks will cut from the entitlements of the elderly and vulnerable and their carers in the forthcoming budget. I urge the Minister to look at the broader picture and balance care for the carers with short-term gain for the Exchequer at the cost of fairness and transparency. I would welcome a favourable reply from the Minister this evening. When I see him here, I hope it is with good news.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is with very good news because, as Deputy Bannon knows, decisions made in the Department are made by deciding officers who act absolutely independently of me and if one is not happy with a decision one goes to a independent appeals office, so the allegation that in some way a directive on the application of the rules went from the top of the Department is utter nonsense and I assure the Deputy of that.

If this country could not borrow money on international markets, the effect on the social welfare budget, which is 38% of the current spend, would be absolutely devastating. The Government is focused on ensuring that we can borrow money to provide the top-class services we do through our social welfare system.

I will now deal with the question on people transferring from carer's benefit to carer's allowance and I think Deputy Bannon knows how the schemes work. Carer's benefit was introduced in October 2000. It is a social contribution payment made to people who have left the workforce to look after somebody in need of full-time care and attention.

To qualify for carer's benefit and carer's allowance, the person being cared for, namely, the caree, must require full-time care and attention. A decision on medical eligibility is made based on the medical evidence supplied at the time of the relevant application. A decision on medical eligibility would have been made at the time of an application for carer's benefit based on the medical evidence supplied. When a person is no longer eligible for carer's benefit and subsequently applies for carer's allowance in respect of the same care recipient, a new application must be submitted. The Department's medical assessor gives an opinion, based on the latest medical information supplied. In a small number of cases, the assessor will advise that the caree no longer requires full-time care and attention.

It is important to remember that the maximum time a person may receive carer's benefit is two years. However, this may be spread out over a longer period with episodes of employment in between. The medical circumstances can change over time.

There is no difference in the medical eligibility criteria between the two schemes. The medical evidence supplied by the claimant in support of the initial application for carer's benefit and the subsequent application for carer's allowance may differ and it is upon this medical evidence that the medical assessor's opinion is based.

Practical experience as a constituency politician will tell one that often the reason an appeal succeeds is because the evidence given at the appeal is far more substantial than the evidence in the initial application, and we all know this. A very small number of decisions, approximately 2%, are appealed so we are discussing 48% of 2%, which is 1%. Removing the number of cases where if the information provided on appeal had been provided originally they would have succeeded leaves a very small number of social welfare applications where the basic decision is overturned by the appeals office.

Claims for either carer's benefit or carer's allowance may be reviewed by the Department at any time to establish continuing eligibility and a claimant may be requested to furnish up to date medical evidence. When applicants are refused carer's allowance on medical grounds they are notified of this decision, the reasons for it and their right of review or appeal to the social welfare appeals office. I understand that there were a total of 78 cases in the year June 2009 to May 2010 which were refused carer's allowance on medical grounds following a carer's benefit claim. Most of the schemes administered by the Department of Social Protection, including carer's benefit and carer's allowance, have qualifying conditions established by legislation. There is no question of valid claims being deliberately withheld to meet cost-cutting targets. While the economic situation is difficult, any changes to the qualifying conditions for carer's benefit and carer's allowance would require legislation and would only be introduced as part of the normal budgetary process.

If one takes the figure of 80, or even 100, at an average of €10,000 a year, that would work out at approximately €1 million. When one considers that my Department spends €200,000 a minute, that is the equivalent of a five-minute spend. I assure Deputy Bannon that the numbers issues in my Department far exceed that and if anyone thinks there is some policy other than objectively examining every file on its merits, they are wrong.

Deputy Bannon also raised the issue of the habitual residency claim. I hear all this talk about Irish citizens but under EU law it would be illegal for us to differentiate between a Polish, French, British or Irish citizen or any citizen of any other part of the EU in terms of habitual residency, and that is the nub of the issue. In making decisions on habitual residency, the fact that they are Irish as opposed to any other nationality cannot legally be taken into account. As Deputy Bannon will be aware, the position is that people must have their centre of interest within this country. I will give Deputy Bannon the figures, if the Acting Chairman allows me. I am trying to be helpful to the Deputy.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Michael Kennedy)

The Minister is over time but I will give him half a minute for Deputy Bannon's matter.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Deputy Bannon is getting a bonus today because this was not in the official reply but I want to clarify the matter.

In 2006, out of 5,813 carer's allowance applications awarded, 27 were refused on the habitual residency condition; in 2007, 32 out of 9,000 were refused; in 2008, 44 out of 15,000 were refused; and in 2009, 126 out of 10,000 were refused. To date in 2010, 139 out of 4,150 were refused. Therefore, the numbers are relatively small. It is a difficult issue and I have found as much myself. The real challenge is that one cannot treat the citizens of any EU country differently and, therefore, the Irish person must be treated the same as a citizen of any other state. It is also fair to say that one could not do away with the habitual residency condition because the consequences to our very good social security system would be horrendous.

The Dáil adjourned at 7.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 5 October 2010.