It is proposed to take No. a22, statements re Minister for Finance’s announcement on banking of 30 September 2010, on the Supplementary Order Paper; and that notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings in respect of No. a22 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. today and the following arrangements shall apply: the statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes. Private Members’ business, which shall be No. 76, motion re economic strategy (resumed), will be taken after the Order of Business and is to conclude after 90 minutes, if not previously concluded.
Order of Business
There is one proposal to be put to the House today. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a22, statements re the announcement by the Minister for Finance on banking of 30 September 2010 agreed to?
It is not agreed. Ireland wakes up this morning to another national crisis. People find themselves owning another bank when most people only wish to own their own homes. The Order of Business as presented by the Government is a typical response that constitutes business as usual. However, it is not business as usual. While the Taoiseach never has had any willingness to change the manner in which this House does its business, now is the time for real action in the context of what is a national crisis. This morning, the Minister for Finance stated that the people could rightly be angry at bankers who had involved themselves in reckless lending practices. People also should be and are very angry at the political process that allowed this to happen. I saw a report the other day of a man who was jailed for the non-payment of a fine of €250. However, one sees what happens both here and abroad, with people who were involved with Anglo Irish Bank and in other reckless lending practices swanning around as though it were business as usual.
The situation with which we are faced today means that the banking strategy pursued by the Government and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, is now in shreds. This banking strategy has closed Ireland off to the markets and now is a clear indication beyond yea or nea——
While I am reluctant to interrupt Deputy Kenny, he knows we are on the proposed arrangement and that there will be ample opportunity.
I intend to contribute to this debate.
The Order of Business is separate.
A Cheann Comhairle, the Deputy is discussing the proposal.
The credibility of the Government, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance in respect of banking strategy is now in tatters. I am appalled at the number of cases I have already encountered this morning of people who are concerned that lending practices will now become even tighter and that credit will not be extended to business with obvious consequential difficulties. However, for the Government to say we can have a debate in the House until 3.30 p.m. without allowing for any questions or capacity to tease out what is a national crisis is incredible. I propose that we do not accept the proposed Order of Business and that the time be extended until at least 6 p.m. and that time possibly be allowed tomorrow. Every single Member, be he from Fianna Fáil, the Green Party, the Labour Party or Sinn Féin, or an Independent, is entitled to his say on what the Taoiseach has led us into.
The Independents are still excluded.
This is not a time for hysterical reaction, nor is it a time for a panic-stricken reaction. The fundamental problem that the Government now faces and in which it has landed the country is that even if it produces four-year fiscal or banking plans or four-year growth projections, they will have no credibility. They will be treated in the same way by the markets as the Taoiseach's announcement only two days ago of creating 300,000 jobs. The proposal is built on a basis of shadows. The Taoiseach is tying the next Government into circumstances based on his attempts to make fiscal projections for four years ahead.
The Fine Gael banking policy outlined for the past two years has now proven to be correct yet again. Time and again, the Government has rejected all proposals that were constructive, costed and in the interest of Ireland, getting people back to work and restoring the confidence of the people. We set out those strategies,——
That point can be made in the debate later.
——costed them and circulated them. We made our case about subordinated bond investors taking a portion of the hit. We need to tease out the Government's view on senior bondholders and the terms that are to be negotiated. The Minister for Finance was quite circumspect about this matter this morning.
This is a most serious set of circumstances, catastrophic for many. The Government seems to believe it is business as usual but it is not. For that reason, I propose, in the interest of our country and people, that we now have a rational debate on what we must do to pull the country back from the brink of the economic cliff to which it has been led by the Taoiseach, Deputy Brian Cowen, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and the rest of the Government owing to their failed banking strategy. The failure of the banking strategy is now threatening Ireland. We need to stand up and do something about it.
I ask Deputies to remember that there is a proposal to have a full-scale debate later during statements. There will be time during Private Members' business. There will be ample time.
No, there will not be ample time — that is the whole problem. The proposal from the Government is that the statements on the statement made officially by the Minister for Finance this morning on the full cost of the banking bailout should conclude at 3.30 p.m. today. This means that, in effect, the Government is proposing that the Dáil be given between two hours and 2.5 hours to discuss the biggest Bill that any Government has ever introduced. There is no reason statements should end at 3.30 p.m. or why they could not continue tomorrow during a sitting of the House. There is no reason the item cannot remain on the Order Paper until every single Member of the Dáil who wants to make a contribution does so. There is no parliamentary reason for a time limit on this debate. Statements can be continued until the opportunity is given to every Member to contribute. They can be worked into the schedule of the Dáil next week, the week after or later until every Member has the opportunity of contributing. If ever there were a case for this to apply, it is in this case. We are talking about the biggest sum of money we have ever talked about.
The focus is understandably on Anglo Irish Bank, in respect of which we are told the total required will be between €29.3 billion and €34.3 billion. However, when one adds in the recapitalisation money for all the other banks, one will note that the total is between approximately €45 billion and €50 billion. We are a long way from the circumstances that obtained when the Minister for Finance told us on 24 October 2008 that the bank bailout was the cheapest in the world. We have now been told the final bill. This is the price of failure. It is the price of the property bubble, of the light regulation that Fianna Fáil has presided over, of bad government and of the blanket bank guarantee. It is the bill that Fianna Fáil is leaving to the people of this country. It amounts to between €45 billion and €50 billion.
It is not acceptable for the Government, on leaving that bill to the people, to give Members until 3.30 p.m. today to say their piece on it. It is no more acceptable than the dishonest way that the Taoiseach dealt with the question yesterday when I asked him if he knew what the figure was. He said he did not and that the Financial Regulator had not given it to him yet, but that we might be able to have a Dáil debate about it. We were hardly outside the door when we discovered an article on the Financial Times website based on an interview given by the Minister for Finance, which interview he had to have given before he came into the House at 7 p.m. yesterday. Most of the information that was eventually announced publicly this morning was signalled in that interview. That is, at the very least, discourtesy to the Dáil.
I formally propose an amendment to the Government's proposal this morning to prevent the conclusion of the motion at 3.30 p.m. It should be left open-ended such that we can return to it. If we want to sit tomorrow, we will be able to return to tomorrow. Otherwise we can continue next week and reschedule the statements until every single Member of the House has an opportunity to speak on it.
Early this morning a bill of between €45 billion and €50 billion landed through the letter-box of every home in this State courtesy of the Government. The Government clearly has no shame. Yesterday evening it rushed through an extension of the bank guarantee scheme before the full information on the expected level of support necessary to rescue Anglo Irish Bank or deal with the outrageous conduct of those who were entrusted with its stewardship over many years was made available. Regarding Anglo Irish Bank alone, the sum required amounts to up to €34 billion.
This morning on "Morning Ireland", the Minister of Finance said——
I remind the Deputy that all these points can be made later.
They will be. The Ceann Comhairle should not have any doubt about that.
It is not necessary to have a full-scale debate at this point on the Order of Business.
He said, "The banks are now out of the way." It is laughable only because of how serious this matter is, what we are actually facing and the impact it is having on the lives of ordinary people. This is an absolute disgrace. I disagree with my colleagues who have spoken on the proposed statements. It is not a question of having more time for statements and having everybody make his contribution while the Government sits there without backbenchers having even to exercise a defence of what is taking place through being called upon to vote in favour of it. It is not statements we want; we need a debate. We need a proposition. We need to be sure that all Members on the Government side of the House, from both Fianna Fáil and the Green Party, really believe what their Cabinet has been putting forward yesterday and today and what it will clearly put forward in the future. We do not want statements but decisions to be made in the interest of the people and the record to show this clearly.
We have no confidence in this proposition. It is a whitewash to give cover to the Government on foot of what it did yesterday and what it is now proposing to do once again. This morning the Sinn Féin Deputies tabled a motion of no confidence in the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan. Having given careful thought and long consideration to the matter, we have had to come to that decision. There can be no other mealy-mouthed way about it. The fact of the matter is that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, the Taoiseach and their colleagues have not been upfront with the Members of this House. They have withheld critical information that would have been relevant and important to decisions we were asked to make on the floor of this Chamber. This goes back to 30 September 2008 when the full information in regard to Anglo Irish Bank was not shared with the elected representatives of the people in this House when the Minister sought the initial green light for the bank guarantee scheme.
Two years later, there can be no confidence in this Government's further efforts to lead the Irish people into financial destruction, which is where it is bringing us. It is with regret that we have been forced to take this decision, but we have had to do it. We are calling on the other Opposition voices in this House to facilitate the opportunity to take that motion forward onto the floor of this House where we can debate it. We will not accept this proposition. It is an absolute whitewash, and this Government is a total disgrace. What we need is for the Government to go before the people at the earliest possible opportunity so that they can decide. It is time for the Government to go. We need new policies, new direction and new leadership.
There are two amendments before the House. No. 1 is in the name of Deputy Kenny.
I apologise for interrupting. We can agree an extension of time for the debate, the details of which can be worked out by the Whips after the Order of Business. The debate could be extended into next week.
How many hours does the Taoiseach propose to allow?
Will it be an open-ended debate?
I accept what the Taoiseach is saying. Will there be an opportunity, at the end of whatever time is agreed for an extended debate, for questions to the Minister for Finance?
The business was structured so as to have statements until 3.30 p.m at which point the Minister will be taking Question Time, during which there will be an opportunity for Members to raise issues with him. That was the thinking behind it. However, if Members now want an extension of statements until 6 p.m. or 7 p.m. or into next week, subject to agreement by the Whips, that is fair enough.
That would be acceptable.
It would not be an open-ended debate, but an agreement can be reached between the Whips.
Whichever Members wish to speak on this, on all sides of the House, should be entitled to do so. I am sure the Minister for Finance will be willing to answer questions at the end of it. The Whips can work out the details of that.
On a point of order, will the Taoiseach facilitate Independent Members in terms of speaking time?
Yes.
Thank you.
On a point of order, I have watched the Minister on the television. He seems willing to take questions and answers with everybody bar politicians.
That is not a point of order. The Deputy should resume his seat.
We cannot get any answers in this House.
I have called Deputy Gilmore. Deputy English must resume his seat.
Will the Ceann Comhairle confirm that the man will answer questions today from us?
The Minister will take Question Time today.
I am not talking about pre-prepared questions and answers.
I ask the Deputy to resume his seat. He will have ample opportunities to raise these matters. He has been told that the time for the debate has been extended.
The Ceann Comhairle has not answered my question.
Will the Deputy resume his seat?
My question has not been answered.
I do not propose the order of the day. The Taoiseach, on behalf of the Government, makes the proposal. The decision has been made.
I will assist the Deputy if he resumes his seat. It is the normal courtesy. The two Opposition leaders have requested an extension of time for the statements on banking, to which the Government is willing to accede. That can be organised by the Whips in terms of extending the debate beyond Question Time today for several hours or arranging for it to be dealt with next week. Usually if there is a question and answer session under these situations, it is at the end of statements. What Deputy English wants is a few statements, a few questions and answers, a few statements and so on.
That is not the way we operate.
The Minister has answered questions from everybody else.
Hold on for a minute, you are in the Dáil now.
The Taoiseach should be allowed to continue.
The Deputy knows what his options are. There has been a request for an extension of statements to which we have acceded. The Minister is also taking Question Time today. I am sure there is a way in which Deputies can——
Pre-prepared answers.
Deputies can use their own way in putting questions to the Minister on that front. If there is to be a question and answer session, it would usually take place at the end of statements, the Minister having heard what everybody has had to say, including perhaps Deputy English.
That is not good enough.
The Deputy must resume his seat.
Deputy English must resume his seat. I have called Deputy Gilmore.
I acknowledge and thank the Taoiseach for agreeing to the suggestion by Deputy Kenny and me that the debate be extended to allow everybody in the House an opportunity to contribute. The Taoiseach said that the arrangements can be agreed by the Whips. I hope he will also agree that in making those arrangements, the Whips will be enabled to make suitable arrangements for questions and answers between the Minister and Members of the House.
As I said, I am anxious to facilitate an extension of time for statements, but whether that will mean everybody in the House will have an opportunity to speak I cannot predict. The Government has business to conduct in addition to this business. I take the point that if the House wishes to have statements beyond what is in the Order Paper for this particular business, we can arrange for that through the agreement of the Whips. We can also arrange for a question and answer session, which usually takes place at the end of statements.
It is unfortunate that voices in the House are satisfied with only having the opportunity for extra speaking time. I fully support the case for every Deputy, including the Independents, having the chance to participate. However, it is not about the numbers of statements. It is about whether statements of themselves are the appropriate way to address this matter. We in Sinn Féin do not believe they are. If the Government——
We cannot have a Second Stage debate on this matter.
I am concluding my contribution.
We have made considerable progress on the arrangements for the debate.
If the Government has confidence in its position, why does it not put forward a motion so that we can have a proper debate and let those who are defending this approach show the colour of their support by utilising the electronic system or voting through the divisions, whichever is the case? Let them put their name to a decision here and not merely fill the air with statements which, in the end of the day——
I have asked the Deputy to co-operate with the Chair.
——does not come close to what is needed.
We have a proposal, as outlined by the Taoiseach at the beginning of the Order of Business. Is that agreed to in principle, subject to the amended proposal to be agreed by the Whips later?
It is not agreed. It does not go far enough.
We now move on to Private Members' business, motion re economic strategy (resumed).
Are we taking questions on the Order of Business?
Yes, if Members are offering. I call Deputy Burton.
Does Deputy Kenny wish to contribute?
We will come back to him.
Does Deputy Kenny wish to do Order of Business?
In regard to this morning's events, I believe the Government gambled a banking strategy which it has now lost. The problem is that the taxpayer has paid——
The Deputy will have ample time to make these points later on. She will have practically all day to make them.
I want to ask the Taoiseach a number of specifics about the material that has been put up on various Government press and agency sites——
The Deputy can ask those questions and make those points during the debate.
Sorry, the country is going down the tubes.
Yes.
It is akin to the Titanic driving into the iceberg. Will the Ceann Comhairle help to stop it?
I am advising the Deputy that she will have ample opportunity later, without interruption, to make those points.
Has the Taoiseach or his Government had discussions with the European Commission specifically in regard to the raised figure of the deficit which the Minister for Finance stated may possibly reach 32%? Will the Taoiseach advise or arrange to advise the House or the Opposition on how the European Commission and other European agencies propose to treat with that incredible level of deficit which will be recording at the end of this year?
I want also to ask the Taoiseach whether it remains the position of Government, in respect of senior debt, which has been put at some €30 billion plus, which came free of the guarantee last night——
The Deputy is into detail, which will be dealt with during the debate.
——that there will be no negotiation in regard to those tranches of debt?
The Deputy is not in order.
There is also a reference——
The Deputy is not in order and is, by continuing, abusing the privileges of the House.
These are major Government statements, not about future programmes of Government but in regard to how the country manages to survive this.
I have advised the Deputy that she will have ample opportunity to make those points later on.
I will make my final point in two sentences.
Two sentences?
I wish to ask the Taoiseach a question about the resolution mechanism referred to at the end of the statement from the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan.
The Deputy cannot pose that question at this time.
The resolution mechanism mentioned in the statement is promised legislation. It is the most important legislation that we never got since the beginning of our trouble with the banks. May I explain that to the Ceann Comhairle?
Yes but the only question the Deputy is allowed to ask is when the legislation will come forward. The Deputy is not allowed to make Second Stage contributions in the context of her query.
Now that the country is in mortal peril, perhaps the Taoiseach will say if he has given consideration, as previously requested by me of the Minister for Finance, to the situation that existed in England prior to the general election, namely, that the Fine Gael spokesperson on finance and I, as spokesperson on finance for the Labour Party, along with other spokespersons on finance, would have a direct line to a senior person in the Department of Finance? This happened for George Osborne and Vince Cable in the run up to the British general election, namely, the Opposition were given the detailed figures and were in a position, free of whatever take the serving Government — in this case the British Labour Party — had on the figures or their expectations in terms of what they hoped to do with their policies. Will the Government undertake to give us the figures spokesperson to spokesperson, in confidence?
Will the Deputy be constructive?
It is obvious that the Government is nearing the end of its life and that there are going to be changes. We must be in a position to take up the cudgel——
Deputy, please.
Perhaps we will see some policies from the Labour Party that are based on reality.
Deputy Burton is anticipating the debate.
This has nothing to do with——
Deputy, please resume your seat. Deputy Burton is abusing the privilege of the House.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Resume your seat, Deputy.
The Deputy's question has nothing to do with promised legislation.
I have asked the Deputy to resume her seat. If there are any aspects of the queries the Taoiseach can reply to, he will do so. Deputy Burton is anticipating the debate, which will be ongoing all day. The Deputy is ticking off her questions at this point.
My question is not for the debate at all.
On the European Commission and euro group, I understand they will be making a statement later today. On the resolution mechanism issue, that matter is being discussed and will be forthcoming later this year.
In relation to——
The Deputy has had a good innings this morning.
The Minister for Finance has a busy schedule.
I have not called Deputy Burton.
He has not briefed the Opposition at any stage, which is deeply regrettable because we are fielding media queries on Ireland from around the world and are trying to do our best by Ireland.
I hope so.
That is not borne out by the public statements the Deputy is making.
We have not been helped by the Minister for Finance who has given us no information. Has the Government had any discussions on how to operate a bipartisan information policy as applies in most democracies and is helpful to most democracies?
Spokespersons can be briefed by the officials and-or the Minister, or both.
Will the Taoiseach arrange it?
I call Deputy Ring.
We were promised by Government that legislation in regard to part of FÁS being moved to the Department of Social Protection would be introduced this term. I was expecting that legislation to be announced yesterday in the legislative programme. When will that legislation come before the House? We were told it would be introduced this term.
I understand that legislation is still in preparation. It will be brought forward as soon as it is available.
It has been promised for before Christmas.
I call Deputy Terence Flanagan.
The Minister is working towards that.
Does the Taoiseach expect it to be ready before Christmas?
The Minister is working towards that.
I have called Deputy Terence Flanagan.
The National Property Services Regulatory Authority, a €3 million quango, is now four years old but still has no statutory powers. The authority is supposed to regulate property management agents but is not currently achieving its objectives. Staff at the authority are twiddling their thumbs. This is yet another example of the Government burning taxpayers' money.
Has legislation been promised in this area?
Perhaps the Taoiseach will say when Second Stage of that legislation will be taken in this House.
What is the name of the Bill?
The Property Services (Regulation) Bill 2009.
That is a matter for the Whips. The Bill is currently on Second Stage in the Dáil.
Perhaps the Taoiseach will explain how the man who drove his truck through the gates of Leinster House yesterday morning is to appear before the courts today while the reckless lenders, largely responsible for bringing this country to its knees, some of whom have proven to be a greater threat to the State, remain at large.
Deputies
Hear, hear.
He should have driven the truck towards Government Buildings.
The prosecution of offences is continuing through the prosecution services. The Government does not have a direct role in that. We all share the Deputy's concern that those matters be brought to conclusion as quickly as possible and that any indictment offences be brought forward as quickly as possible.
When will the Government make a decision on the Limerick local government commission report? Will the Taoiseach assure the House that the Clare boundary will remain intact?
I understand the report has been published and is currently being consulted on with local interests. People's views are being gleaned before the report returns to Government for consideration.
We will proceed with Private Members' business.
The Ceann Comhairle has forgotten about me again.
Deputy Durkan may make a contribution.
While I know I am shrinking by the day, I had hoped I was still visible. In light of Deputy Ring's comments yesterday, I wonder whether I have received the same treatment as the Deputy today. The matter relates to promised legislation and I will address it in a moment. First, however, I will remind the House of the quality and standard of service Members receive at present. This issue relates to the Order of Business. I asked the Minister for Health and Children——
The Deputy must find an alternative means of raising the matter.
I will need 30 seconds to complete my contribution provided the Ceann Comhairle does not interrupt me.
I asked the Minister for Health and Children the number of hospital wards in various hospitals which, for one reason or another, have been decommissioned or are partially functioning or closed and the number and location of beds, theatres or back-up services and facilities which have been similarly deactivated. The response I received is indicative of the problem we face.
The Chair does not have any control over ministerial replies.
I propose to cite a precedent in this regard. Similar circumstances arose a couple of years ago in the mother of parliaments.
Before the Deputy gives a long dissertation on this matter——
I am not giving a long dissertation but a short, sharp one.
——the Chair does not have any control over ministerial replies. He has several ways to raise matters such as this in the House. They include the Adjournment debate and meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
When I raise matters on the Adjournment Ministers do not bother to come into the House. I will read out the reply I received and allow the Ceann Comhairle to make up his own mind.
The Deputy is being disorderly.
Why does the Ceann Comhairle not want to hear the answer?
I have just advised Deputy Durkan of the position regarding parliamentary questions.
I am advising the Ceann Comhairle of the position on this side.
As I stated, I do not have any control over them.
The Ceann Comhairle is allowing the House to be treated with contempt.
If the Deputy submits a matter for discussion on the Adjournment, it will, as always, be considered sympathetically. I ask him to consider that option.
Is the Ceann Comhairle telling me that the subject matter of a reply to a question that——
The Deputy is being disorderly. While I do not wish to do so, I will have to ask him to leave the House if he does not resume his seat.
The Ceann Comhairle's problem is he keeps inviting me out. There is no need to leave the House together or apart.
I ask Deputy Durkan to resume his seat.
Will the Ceann Comhairle do something about the disgrace of——
I ask the Deputy to show some respect for the Chair. He must resume his seat or leave the House.
If the Ceann Comhairle continues like this, we will all have to leave the House.
The Deputy will either resume his seat or leave the House.
Will legislation be required to provide for the investment by the National Pensions Reserve Fund in Allied Irish Banks? How much will the NPRF invest in AIB? The Government announced the nationalisation of the largest bank in the country this morning. We need to know if legislation will be required.
No legislation is required.
How will the investment take place? Will it be done by ministerial direction?
It will be done in the same way as on the previous occasion the National Pensions Reserve Fund acquired preference shares. Legislation was not required then.