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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Nov 2010

Vol. 720 No. 4

Resourcing of the Garda and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement: Motion (Resumed)

The following motion was moved by Deputy Noonan on Tuesday, 2 November 2010:
That Dáil Éireann condemns the Government for its incompetence in dealing with the banking crisis and, in particular:
the failure of the Government to ensure adequate supervision of the banks;
the failure of the Regulator, Central Bank and the Department of Finance to monitor the banks and provide advance warning of the crisis;
the failure of the Government to act in a timely fashion when banks abroad had collapsed and it was clear that banks here were facing difficulties; and
the failure of the Government to change bank directors, to make senior appointments from outside the banks and to change banking culture in dealing with customers;
recognises the widespread public anger that those chiefly responsible for the crisis have not been held to account despite extensive inquiries by An Garda Síochána and the Director of Corporate Enforcement; and calls on the Government to adequately resource the Garda and the Director of Corporate Enforcement to enable them to complete their inquiries as soon as possible so that files may be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) and prosecutions taken if appropriate
Debate resumed on amendment No 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"recognising the sudden onset and serious nature of the worst global financial crisis in more than 75 years, commends the Government for the rapid and effective response it has made to reform the structures of financial regulation, support the banks, restore confidence, protect consumers and establish a basis for a sustainable banking sector in the future; and in particular, recognises:
the rapid response of the Government in introducing the Central Bank Reform Act 2010 to restructure the financial regulatory system including:
the creation of a fully integrated Central Bank;
the replacement of the board of the Central Bank and the Financial Regulatory Authority with a new Central Bank Commission chaired by the Governor, Professor Patrick Honohan;
the appointment of international expert, Mr Matthew Elderfield, as Head of Financial Regulation within the new structures to lead internal renewal of financial regulation;
and providing a statutory basis for a new regime of fitness and probity for senior management and board members in banks and other financial service providers;
the effective response of the Government to the crisis in putting in place protections for the savings of households and businesses through the Deposit Guarantee Scheme and the general guarantee for the banks;
the changes at director and senior executive levels at the covered institutions that have been made since September 2008, in which the chairpersons and chief executives of all of the covered institutions bar one — in each case — have changed: some 47 directors have vacated their positions with 33 new appointments being made and some 31 senior executives have departed;
the establishment of NAMA and the work it has already completed in dealing with transferred assets;
the nationalisation of Anglo Irish Bank and more recent developments in relation to the funding bank and the asset recovery bank;
the recapitalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland and the other financial institutions experiencing difficulties;
the extensive inquiries under way by An Garda Síochána and the Director of Corporate Enforcement; that these inquiries are proceeding in an efficient manner;
that the Garda have adequate resources to carry out their work and have no higher priority than completing these investigations;
and the independence of An Garda Síochána and the Director of Corporate Enforcement in their investigations and supports them in bringing those investigations to a conclusion; and notes the intensive work underway within the Government to further strengthen and renew the banks while, and at the same time, ensuring that banks fulfil their commitments given to the Government in relation to lending to Irish households and businesses and, in particular, small and medium sized enterprises."
(Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Innovation, Deputy Dara Calleary.)

We resume the debate of which ten minutes remain in this slot. Deputy Seán Sherlock is the next speaker.

I am just in the nick of time.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. The Labour Party supports the Fine Gael motion. Although the motion speaks specifically to the incompetence of the Government, with particular regard to the banking crisis, it is important to speak about the lack of regulation of the money lending and debt advisory sector. In the current regulatory environment there is a coterie of so-called debt advisers who charge rates commensurate with the usurers of Shakespeare's "The Merchant of Venice". This is an outrage and a further indicator of the indifference this Government shows towards ordinary working people. This was evidenced in its recent reply to a parliamentary question I posed on licensed moneylenders.

It may be said I am straying slightly from the guts of the motion but in speaking on this sector my party believes there must be a level of equity in the way a Government and a regulatory regime examine financial services. If one talks about giving powers to the Garda and the Director of Corporate Enforcement, one must also examine how those powers are divided up and to which sectors they should apply. The motion speaks of these powers applying specifically to the banking sector but my party believes it is essential that we consider the wider financial services sector.

On 27 October I asked the Minister for Finance whether his attention had been drawn to the fact that the country's largest licensed home collection moneylender has acquired an additional 13,000 customers in the past year and what his plans were to introduce a system of regulation for debt collection agencies. The Minister responded:

In my role as Minister for Finance I have responsibility for the development of the legal framework governing the regulation of financial institutions in Ireland. The day to day responsibility for the supervision of these financial institutions is a matter for the Central Bank, which is independent in the exercise of its regulatory functions. The Central Bank issues licences to money lenders on a yearly basis. The Central Bank has produced a consumer protection code for licensed money lenders and under this code money lenders are required to prominently indicate the high-cost nature of the loan on all loan documentation where the APR is 23% or higher. The disclosure must take the following form, there must be a warning that this is a high-cost loan and money lenders must also provide consumers who demonstrate difficulty in meeting their repayments with information on debt counselling services such as the Money Advice and Budgeting Service which provides free independent advice and guidance.

The reply continues:

Other provisions of the code cover a range of areas including unsolicited contact and unsolicited credit facilities, handling complaints, arrears and guarantees and debt collection . . . The Deputy may wish to note that in the case of financial institutions which use debt collection firms the Central Bank has imposed requirements under its consumer protection code that offer protection to consumers. This code obliges the regulated financial institutions that it covers to ensure that any outsourced collection activity complies with the requirements of the code. This means that outsourced activity should uphold principles in the code such as the requirement for institutions to not exert undue pressure or undue influence on the customer, act honestly, fairly and professionally and with due skill and diligence in the best interests of its consumers and prohibit personal visits to or oral communications with consumers except in specified circumstances. The Deputy may also wish to note that the National Consumer Agency provides extensive information on its website and through its helpline to help consumers avoid getting into debt difficulties. The agency also provides information for those at risk of not being able to meet loan repayments.

I know of nobody who has borrowed money who has been offered such information or is even aware of their rights and entitlements. These are people who traditionally come from working-class areas, have fallen on tougher times and are borrowing from the moneylender. There must be a role for the regulator in regard to this sector because not only is it under-regulated but it deals with the most vulnerable people in our society at this time.

My party sees a glaring discrepancy in the way this sector is being treated where we see a light touch approach applied. The Minister's response to my parliamentary question reflects a mish-mash type of response that does not deal directly with the problem of moneylenders and how insidious they have become. At the same time, however, the regulatory regime has borne down very heavily on the credit union sector, unnecessarily so, some would argue.

In essence, we support the motion but if we are to use opportunities such as this to take a look at the regulatory regime we contend the Government must also examine other aspects of financial services. It must examine the moneylending sector and ask whether it places too heavy a hand on the credit union sector. If one takes the credit union sector as an example, it is one that has never needed a bail out. This House has never debated whether the credit union sector was going into crisis because we know full well it is not, even though there may be a small handful of credit unions which have encountered serious difficulties. The regulatory response from Government, however, has been to bear down heavily on the credit union sector — unnecessarily, we contend — but not to do anything in regard to regulation of the moneylending sector which adversely affects those people who are most vulnerable and therefore needs to be regulated.

We can have no faith that this Government will introduce adequate measures for the Garda or the Director of Corporate Enforcement when we see clearly from the reply to my parliamentary question that the Government is failing to legislate adequately for the moneylending sector while going hell for leather to regulate the credit union sector. Moneylending is a hidden sector, one that needs to be examined and that should be subject to Garda monitoring. I believe it was on 12 February last year that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, stated in a debate on the recapitalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland that there would have to be a change in the regime such that people would have to do "the perp walk", to cite the expression he used. Nobody yet has done the perp walk and we question why there has not been progress since 12 February 2009 in that regard.

Since I came into this House in 2007 we have witnessed events that have hit the country like a tsunami and shocked us. We have had other institutions in which most unsavoury events have occurred, but we are dealing with the banking institutions this evening. Let us be under no illusion. We need a properly functioning banking system because without one we do not have an economy. If we do not have an economy, then we are closed.

Having an effective banking system entails providing a safe place for people to deposit their money. If one deposits money, there is a legitimate expectation that one can get it back on demand. Added to that we must have a system that lends money, particularly to householders or those who wish to borrow to buy homes, as well as for small, medium and other types of businesses, because they need money to be able to function. With that borrowing comes a responsibility to make repayments, and, of course, interest has to be paid on loans.

We are quick to blame others for everything that happens. People must take personal responsibility for their borrowings. Nobody in this House encouraged or forced anybody in this country to take out massive loans. If one takes out a loan, one must consider whether one can afford it and is in a position to make the repayments. There was reckless lending by the banks. Power was taken away from the local managers who knew their customers' limits and given to faceless people in the head offices who were just interested in increasing the banks' loan books and handing out as much money as possible.

We did not have proper regulation. The people charged with that responsibility sat on their hands and saw, heard and said nothing. Eventually, we ended up where we are. I welcome the comments of the Minister for Finance to the effect that investigations are ongoing, interviews have taken place and the Garda Commissioner has indicated that a file will be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions before the end of the year. We must follow the course of natural justice. We cannot have a kangaroo court approach where people are hauled in and then suddenly find themselves in a different court because the investigations have not been properly carried out. People must pay a price for reckless behaviour and bringing our country to the brink.

The appointments of Professor Patrick Honohan and Mr. Matthew Elderfield have been welcomed on all sides, and people see them as doing a good job. They have restored public confidence in their efforts to regulate and supervise the financial sector. Some members of the public have indicated to me that, perhaps, they are being too heavy-handed. However, I do not believe we can have an à la carte approach whereby one can pick and choose what one likes and regard what one does not like as being too heavy-handed. They have to be allowed to do the job and the majority of us recognise that they are making enormous efforts to clean up the mess.

Member of the public are angry, as am I. I am angry with the behaviour of the people who brought us to the brink. We can all be angry and express this, but anger in itself is not a solution. I want these people brought to justice so that they pay the price. We all have a duty in this House to behave responsibly. I do not believe we can make outlandish claims. Let us be realistic. How could the Opposition believe we can default on senior bondholders and expect them to give us additional funding when we return to the markets in the new year? It cannot happen.

I disagree with the Opposition's assertion that the Government has done nothing. The Minister of State, Deputy Calleary, outlined clearly last night the many actions that have been taken by the Government. I commend the efforts of the Government and I have no difficulty in supporting the position it has taken.

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to speak on the serious issue of banking and the appalling happenings in recent years in our banks. Listening to Members from the other side of the House over the last couple of years, one would be led to believe that Government Members are revelling in the goings on in the banks. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are appalled and disgusted at the behaviour of those in control of the banks in recent years. This is our country too, the Ireland our ancestors fought for and where our children will grow up. The only difference between our disgust and that on the other side of the House is that we are in government and did not have the opportunity to spend the last two years pointing fingers and issuing point scoring soundbites. Rather, we have faced the responsibility of rooting out those who were liable for wrongdoing and setting about fixing the system.

Fixing the system has proved to be laborious and expensive, however. The Government has been repeatedly accused of bailing out the banks and this, unfortunately, has become a populist catchphrase. We would much rather invest more heavily in health, education and services in general to improve the lives of our citizens, householders and businesses than having to stabilise the banking system.

Without a properly functioning banking system, the country we are so proud of would have fallen apart at the seams. It was not and is not a matter of choice. This Government set about responding decisively to the challenging position it was faced with. The Governor of the Central Bank has been replaced and a new head of financial regulation was recruited earlier this year. Stricter regimes have been implemented in the Central Bank, with further enhancements being considered as part of a Bill to be brought forward by Government shortly. Significant changes have also been made at senior levels in all the financial institutions that proved problematic. These enhancements, together with changes already in place, are absolutely vital to ensure that similar events do not ever recur.

At all times, the primary focus of this Government has been to ensure that no financial institution should fail in order to protect depositors and creditors, ensuring that State intervention in any financial institution should protect taxpayers' interests and that credit remains available to the real economy. The bank guarantee scheme took effect in 2008 and was vital for the survival of the economy and the banking system as a whole. Banks were facing closure within days, citizens would have been unable to access their deposits and businesses would have faced obliteration very quickly. Much criticism of the original bank guarantee scheme evolved, partly from the Labour Party, although Ireland led the way in this regard, and the financial experts agreed with the Government at the time and still do. Many other member states in the EU followed suit quickly after Ireland led the way. An amended bank guarantee scheme was introduced in December 2009 which is in line with the European model that has since been developed.

There have been many further developments with regard to addressing our banking difficulties including the setting up of NAMA. All of these developments have been measured and decisive for the good of our economy and citizens. The Government has set about implementing a strategy for the future of the country. Rather than putting the best interests of our people first, unfortunately we have an Opposition intent on feeding misinformation to the public in an effort to promote its own political agenda. It is disappointing, although not altogether surprising that we do not have a responsible Opposition in this House, one that can see beyond the next general election.

Tough decisions have been made by Government in the past two years and will continue to be made into the future. We do not take any pleasure in implementing any of these tough decisions rather must set aside electoral gains in the interest of the nation. The Labour Party has resisted every single measure introduced by the Government in an effort to stabilise our economy. While recent opinion polls probably excite the Labour Party it is time for it to back up its political sound bites with real costings and alternatives, which they obviously struggle to determine. Our measures are not popular; we do not expect them to be. We may suffer at the polls as a result but we can be content in the knowledge that we did the right thing by our people. We may be unpopular in the short term but the Labour Party too will in time be judged by its populist policies. I look forward to that time.

Many economic analysts point to the mistakes made in the financial sector as the source of the current world economic crisis. As far as Ireland is concerned, it is clear that mistakes were made and the Irish banking system has endured an unprecedented crisis. What is essential now is that we learn from those mistakes and take the necessary actions to repair the damage.

The Government has responded forcibly and decisively to this challenging position. It is succeeding in rebuilding our domestic banking sector. We now have a fuller understanding of what went wrong and have identified the deficiencies within our regulatory system. We now know the extent of the losses in our banks and the scale of the damage that has been done by the excessive lending and bad practices of recent years. We now have in place a unified and more stringent financial regulatory structure of international standing, which is critically important.

As regards the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, ODCE, and its investigations, the ODCE was set up in 2001 as an independent body to encourage compliance with the companies Acts, to investigate suspected breaches of company law and duty and to take enforcement action where appropriate. In early January 2009, shortly after the resignation of the chairman and chief executive of Anglo Irish Bank, following the bank's acknowledgement of undisclosed bank director loans, the Director of Corporate Enforcement, using his powers under the companies Acts, directed Anglo to produce certain documents. When it later emerged that Anglo had provided loans in 2008 to the so-called Maple ten to purchase Anglo's own shares, the director authorised three of his officers in February 2009 to obtain from the District Court three search warrants under the companies Acts. These were promptly executed at Anglo premises with the support of officers from the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation.

The director has since exercised other legal powers which he possesses to further his investigations. In short, the director and his staff have been very active in dealing with the events which came to public attention at Anglo. The Anglo investigation is a massive and complex one; the largest ever undertaken by the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Garda Síochána have acquired several million individual documents from Anglo and other parties. As recently indicated by the Garda Commissioner, up to 400 statements have been taken at this stage, some of which are more than 100 typed pages in length. The Director of Corporate Enforcement publicly indicated some months ago that he expected his investigations of suspected company law breaches at Anglo to be substantially completed by the end of this year. This timetable remains on target.

The Garda Commissioner recently made a similar public statement in respect of the investigations being undertaken by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation into various matters at Anglo, including in particular the back-to-back deposit arrangement entered into with Irish Life & Permanent in late September 2008. The Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Garda Commissioner are independent investigating authorities and have been working closely.

No politician or anyone else can interfere with these investigations. We must let them take their course. If I have learned one thing in this House — this matter was also referred to by Deputy Noonan — it is that when politics and justice collide we lose. I urge people when commenting publicly to be conscious of the fact that these independent investigations are ongoing. It would be remiss of us to speak blandly in this House on the need for retribution and so on because naming individuals and entering into specifics could damage investigations as they progress. I urge everybody concerned, when being interviewed or when speaking publicly or in this House, to ensure their utterances are considered and appropriate. It is important they understand the independence of the prosecuting authorities in the context of their establishment under the Constitution and by way of legislation passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

Many Deputies made comparisons between our situation and that in the United States. Public comment on the time taken to investigate white collar crime in Ireland makes frequent reference to the position in the US where investigations are said to be concluded quicker. As stated by the Minister for Justice and Law Reform, no one has been indicted in the US arising from the collapse of Lehman's over two years ago. It is true that Mr. Madoff was successfully prosecuted in recent years for operating a Ponzi-type scheme, but he pleaded guilty as part of a plea bargain and did not defend any charges. Moreover, he was not involved in banking.

As outlined by previous speakers, independent investigations are ongoing. We in this House have a duty, even though we would like to see particular actions being taken, not to interfere in that process and to allow justice take its course.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in support of the Government amendment to this motion before the House. If one strips away the political claims of the Fine Gael motion, the essence of it is calling on the Government to ensure that the Garda Síochána and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement are adequately resourced so that files may be forwarded to the Director of Public Prosecutions and prosecutions taken where appropriate. There is unanimity in the House on those issues. As I understand it, nobody has said on behalf of the Garda Síochána or the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement that they lack resources in processing these particular investigations. In fact, I have heard the Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, say he had adequate resources. The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement has not, on any occasion, claimed a lack of resources was impeding the investigations. Extra resources have been made available by Government. Given the priority afforded to these investigations I am sure further resources would be made available if requested.

We often appear in this House to be trying to outdo each other in terms of who is the most angry at what has happened in the banks and in regard to what we would all like to see happen to the bankers. That level of debate does not serve any purpose. Some say we should treat the bankers as subversives and others say they should be thrown in jail or shot. We must focus on the facts. The fact is that these are major complex criminal investigations. As recently as last week, the Garda Commissioner said that he expects some decisions on the progression of these cases will be made by the end of the year. As the Minister of State, Deputy Kelleher, said approximately 400 statements have been taken so far as part of the investigations, some of which are 150 pages long. I understand that two senior counsel have also been retained to review the evidence gathered and that a mutual assistance hearing will be held in London next month to extradite further evidence from the UK for use in Ireland. We all want to see these investigations concluded as quickly as possible.

Like Deputy Conlon I, too, am angry at this country having to take on an extra €45 billion to €50 billion in national debt as a consequence of the recklessness of bankers who brought the economic future of this country to the brink. We must take a pragmatic view and must ensure that those who were responsible are held to account by the criminal justice system and that these cases are brought forward as quickly as possible. Also, none of us as public representatives should say anything which would in any way prejudice such cases when brought forward and we must identify the causes of the crisis, the subject of the two published preliminary reports by Professor Honohan and Klaus Regling. We must then move to address the clear deficiencies identified in those reports.

I hope it is not the case that when these investigations are concluded a lack of legislation will prevent cases being taken. In other words, clear breaches of legislation can be identified and that we in this House have not been in any way deficient in our duties to bring forward robust legislation in respect of white collar crime. In that regard I welcome the move by the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to open up a period of public consultation on the issue of organised and white collar crime. I am sure all of the political parties in this House will contribute proactively to that particular initiative to ensure that in future we have comprehensive and robust legislation to deal with the whole area of white collar crime, which is complex in its nature and will be, in many ways, the crime of the future. I hope we will not be found remiss in that regard.

The Government's strategy in dealing with the banking crisis has been well articulated in the debates over the past two evenings but from the point of view of individual citizens it is important to reassure people that there is a strong deposit guarantee scheme in place, that all deposits up to the first €100,000 in each covered institution is guaranteed in full, and that any deposits with the nationalised bank and An Post, and any element of State savings, is fully guaranteed also.

I want to reiterate the anger that I and everybody else in this House feels on behalf of our constituents that some of these people, and we all know who they are, have not been charged or locked up. The sooner that happens, the better. I am much more angry, however, about the suffering of my constituents because when these people are locked up, and I am confident they will be, the anger of the Opposition and Mr. Joe Public may be satiated but the hunger and thirst of the people outside this House will not be satiated.

I am angry on behalf of my constituents who bought at the top of the boom but who are now heavily mortgaged and in desperate need of help and hope. That is the reason I have put a great deal of effort into working on solutions for mortgages as part of the Joint Committee on Social Protection, along with some of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's party colleagues.

I am angry with the leader of the Labour Party who has the brass neck to come into this Dáil and lecture my party on being part of some kind of golden circle or that there were illicit financial goings-on to make money. His finance spokesperson, Deputy Joan Burton, comes into this House and makes insinuations about connections between developers and land owners and money for schools, connecting Fianna Fáil and suggesting cute deals went on but we all know that was false. We all know that the priority and the anger of Fianna Fáil backbenchers is on behalf of our constituents who we meet on a daily basis. They are suffering and they need hope and the expectation that they can put food on the table when all of these prosecutions are put to bed.

I am also angry about this Dáil. We are fiddling while Rome burns. We have spent half the day in this Dáil——

Fianna Fáil is fiddling.

——talking about by-elections and matters which are properly the realm of prosecutors and the Garda, who have done a very good job since the foundation of the State.

We should look at what the Portuguese Parliament did today. Why can the Labour Party not adopt the approach of the Portuguese Socialist Party which abstained in the budget vote in the national interest? We are not asking the Opposition to support us on these measures. It is a minority Government in Portugal. They are not spending half the day talking about by-elections or matters that are not relevant to securing the economic future of their country, the economic future of the eurozone, getting their people back to work and, in turn, helping to get our people back to work. If that example were followed in this country, we would have a far more productive system and a far more productive Parliament.

The proceedings in this Parliament today have been a waste of time. The only issues we should be discussing between now and the budget is the budget and how we can protect this country, and the eurozone.

Get Fianna Fáil out of Government.

We have a responsibility in this country not only to protect our people and get them back to work but also to protect the eurozone from which we have benefited in the past year or so.

You can say that again.

We see the hypocrisy of the Opposition, with the Labour Party talking about taxing the Celtic tiger high flyers. I wish there were some more people like the leader of the Labour Party who may be able to contribute if a wealth tax were brought in, but there are not.

My constituents are hung over with debt. They need answers. They need solutions. They will get them if a budget is passed. If we can restore economic confidence to the country and create employment we can restore the hope of the people outside this House. This Dáil is not helping to do that today. The Opposition is not doing it. This side of the House has to rise to the challenge also but we must talk about more relevant and interesting matters.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate tonight, which is a follow on from the two day debate held last week on the economy. There is no doubt that there were monumental failures in our society in regard to banking regulation and this side of the House has taken its share of the blame for that but we must look around and be more inclusive in the blame.

I want to compliment RTE which broadcast a documentary recently entitled "Freefall". One of the striking aspects that emerged from that documentary for me, as a Government backbencher, was the absence of any comment or theme from the Opposition parties to the effect that there was no regulation in the banking sector. They did not say it at the time and now they are coming in here and saying it when the game is over. They must accept their part of the blame in regard to that.

You were told the position in 2005, on 17 May 2005.

Allow Deputy Collins make his contribution without interruption.

That programme was independently produced and broadcast by RTE. It was not a Fianna Fáil production. It was an independent production by RTE, and RTE has not been friendly to Fianna Fáil over the years but I will give it credit when it is due it. I can still see the images of the previous regulator, Mr. Neary, sitting in the "Prime Time" studios telling us that the Irish banks were adequately capitalised, etc.

Who appointed him?

In regard to the resourcing of the Garda Síochána, at the outset I want to thank and wish the outgoing Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, and his family, all the best in his retirement. He has done the State some very good service. He has led the force from the front and he leaves it in very good shape.

Regarding the resourcing, I have witnessed him at least twice stating at the Committee of Public Accounts that there is no issue with the resourcing of the Garda Síochána, and he was not asked that question by me or anybody on the Fianna Fáil side. He was asked the question by Opposition members who sit on that committee. I am sure if he felt there was a lack of resources he would not have been slow to say so.

It is true there is an extensive investigation going on in Anglo Irish Bank. That is welcome, and the comments of the Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, on 29 October are most welcome. He pointed out that there are 40 people working full-time on the investigation. The Director of Public Prosecutions has retained two senior counsel. There are 27 gardaí and 16 officers of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement working on it. A total of 100,000 documents including e-mails, telephone and bank records have been analysed. A total of 400 statements have been taken, some of them up to 150 pages. Inquiries are being made outside the State. There is mutual assistance with the authorities in London. The investigation is headed up by an assistant commissioner in conjunction with the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement.

And zero charges.

If the Members opposite are saying that is not a detailed inquiry, I do not know what they can say next. I welcome the Commissioner's comments on the investigation. I want to see it come to fruition. The Commissioner has said decisions will be taken before the end of the year.

When we contrast the work of the Garda Síochána and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement with what is happening in the Moriarty tribunal, which has been running for 15 years, there is no comparison. We must move away from the tribunal model. It is not fit for purpose. I believe its findings will be irrelevant. We can no longer afford it. We must move to the model the Garda Síochána and the Director of Corporate Enforcement are rolling out in regard to the inquiry in Anglo Irish Bank.

If we want to find extra resources for the Garda we should close down the tribunals, examine the McCarthy report and cut from the top down. We should examine the reports of the efficiency review on the local authorities and have debates about those. We should bring in more early retirement packages such as those announced by the Health Service Executive this week. Let us have real debate and move away from the empty blame game because it is getting us nowhere. As pointed out by RTE in its independent production, the Members opposite did not say anything about it at the time. It was not said on this side of the House either and therefore the Opposition can share in the blame.

I wish to share time, and I believe the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has the list.

The Deputy wishes to share time with Deputies Joe Carey, Michael D'Arcy, Noel Coonan, Pat Breen, Joe McHugh, Fergus O'Dowd and John Perry. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank my colleagues, Deputies Alan Shatter and Michael Noonan, for bringing forward this very important motion. As stated in the motion, the people are clearly angry and upset with the Government's delay in taking action against the bankers who were responsible for bringing this country into the abyss. Every day in the newspapers one can read a story related to banking. The banking crisis has dominated this country in the past two years. We are two years down the road in regard to an investigation specifically related to Anglo Irish Bank yet no one has been prosecuted. No conviction has taken place. It is a complex investigation but two years is a long time. If we look across the Atlantic to America and see the expediency, on behalf of the US Government, in putting bankers in prison and holding people to account, we can see that we have much more to learn in this country.

If the political will existed in Government, the Garda and the Director of Corporate Enforcement would be properly resourced and would have completed this investigation at top speed. That has not happened, however, because the political will is unfortunately not there. What we need is a full statement from the Minister for Justice and Law Reform on why it has taken two years to get to this point. Will the investigation move further afield — will more investigative work be required overseas, for instance? When will the investigation be wrapped up? As other speakers have said, tribunals have dragged on for 15 years. This investigation will not be benchmarked against that, but we need some expediency. The people of Ireland are not willing to move on until there is accountability. To date, as I said, no banker has gone to jail or handed back his or her pension. The golden handshakes that certain individuals were paid have not been returned. Until that happens, the people of Ireland will not be willing to forgive.

In December we will face one of the harshest budgets in this country's history. A total of €50 billion in taxpayers' money has now gone into the banking sector to prop up some of these banks, so we need to see action. The Government must be condemned for its incompetence in dealing with the banking crisis. It has made one bad decision after another since September 2008. If anyone reads the two reports produced by Regling and Watson and Professor Honohan, he or she will see an indictment of the Government. Much of what happened in this country was home-made and resulted from the property market being allowed to go out of control. Professor Honohan's report clearly states that there was an unhealthy relationship between senior political figures and certain people in Anglo Irish Bank who were well liked within political circles, and this clearly played a role.

There are still 32 directors in some of the Irish banks. If the Minister really wants a fresh start he will get rid of those who were there at the time of the crisis in Irish banking.

I commend Deputies Shatter and Noonan on bringing this motion before the Dáil for debate.

The tangled web of Government banking regulation and the work of the Central Bank gives some truth to the view that the perceived gravity of an offence in Ireland often depends on the pedigree of the citizen involved. It is my view from the highest office in the land that we do not take white-collar crime seriously.

Harry Truman kept a sign on his desk that said "The buck stops here!". The motto of this Government is "The buck stops everywhere but here." Until such time as the Government stands up and takes responsibility for its actions, God help us, but we will never see economic recovery. Time after time I have listened to excuses such as the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the fact that we have a small open economy, and the sluggish worldwide recovery being put forward in a desperate attempt to deflect blame from the Government. As each of these excuses has been trotted out over the past two years, it has been underscored by the pervasive culture of managerial irresponsibility and lack of accountability. There has been a sense that white-collar crime is not real crime and that it is without any real consequence.

We have had many examples of this, including the extortion of young Irish people in the property market in the past ten years. Many of these people now find themselves in negative equity. This was driven by greed and promoted by the Government. I recently watched a re-run of last year's RTE programme entitled "Aftershock: Ghost Land". Back then it was estimated that there were approximately 600 unfinished estates in the country; we now know the figure is nearer to 2,800.

In preparing for this debate, I was struck by the comments made on this programme by two men from County Cork. They talked about the advertising they had been presented with prior to buying their house. It screamed "Only One House Remaining: €270,000". Today, they live in a ghost estate with no neighbours, inadequate services and many dangerous, unfinished houses. As far as I am concerned, those two men might as well have been mugged on the street. Along with many other people all over the country, they have been victims of white-collar crime. Our attitude towards this type of crime must change, and that change must come from the very top.

The civic, ethical and political will to deliver justice is not at all apparent. The Government has spent two years dazzled in the headlights of a recession largely of their own making, yet many perpetrators of white-collar crime still retain their positions of influence. It was an indictment of the Irish economy when, in 2005, the Irish financial markets were described by The New York Times as “the Wild West of European finance”. The Department of Finance and others vigorously defended Ireland’s reputation at the time. If we had approached matters differently, would we be in a better position now? Would we be in a better position if we had taken white-collar crime seriously and if we had protected whistleblowers properly? The answer to this question is a resounding “Yes”.

Fine Gael has been accused of being populist in tabling this motion. I have no problem with being populist and being on the side of what is right. It is what the people want in this country. We want to see justice. I support this motion wholeheartedly.

I cannot let it go. The three disciples of Cowenology who have just left the Chamber attempted to blame the Opposition for the mess they and their predecessors created.

On the matter of the previous Financial Regulator, Mr. Neary, I take a different view from that of most people. I agree that he did not do his job. However, we must remember that we are in a single-party State. Fianna Fáil has been in Government in different guises for 23 of the past 25 years. This single-party State appointed people to positions of authority, including the office of the Financial Regulator. Here was a man who should have done his job but chose not to, and we can see the consequences of that. How could he have done his job? The regulator of financial services within the State would have been going against everything the then Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, and his first lieutenant, the Minister for Finance, were saying. We must remember these were the people who said some economists should commit suicide rather than commenting adversely on the state of the Irish economy. That was the backdrop beneath which the regulator — a civil servant, a man appointed by a single-party Government — was supposed to operate. There were no circumstances in which he could operate because he would not have been allowed to say what was required. The pity is that the regulator we have now, Mr. Elderfield, was not available at that stage.

A number of our banks are guaranteed by the State, but others are trading under the auspices of the Financial Regulator without being guaranteed by the State. I would like to have information on the credit committees of all those financial institutions. These are the people who lent insane amounts of money to people to buy houses in developments that could never survive. The moment the downturn came and the markets slowed these people were going to fall off the cliff — and, by God, they fell off the cliff.

There has been a certain amount of talk about the Garda. I do not want to prejudice any upcoming case, but I do not believe any Garda Commissioner would go before a Dáil committee and say he or she did not have sufficient resources to deal with this problem — not under any circumstances. However, it is more than 12 months since the headquarters of Anglo Irish Bank were raided by the Garda. Justice delayed is justice denied.

I will finish with a quote from Benjamin Franklin who, 250 years ago, said: "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." The auction politics engaged in by Fianna Fáil, particularly in the 2002-2007 Administration, showed that the people were voting themselves money. We had benchmarking, pay rises, social welfare increases and increased funding to every area on the basis of Charlie McCreevy's "When I have it, I spend it" philosophy. They have spent it in style and now we have nothing left. We should remember the quotation from Benjamin Franklin: "When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." However, it will not herald the end of this Republic; this nation survived the Famine and we will survive this. There is €100 billion of taxpayers' money in deposit accounts which can be used. There is much negativity and we must show there is a future, but that will not come from the Government side.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to support the motion tabled by Deputies Noonan and Shatter. I will begin with a quote: "one of the duties of the National Government is to secure that thrifty people shall not be deprived of their savings by any kind of scheme, or any kind of society, or any group of individuals." That is a quote of the country's first Minister for Finance, the man who established the country and to whom we should be looking up, Michael Collins. It is a pity the two Brians have not taken heed of those words over the years.

I did not come in here to blame anybody, but I listened patiently to my colleagues admonishing us and putting blame on everybody bar themselves and then in typical Fianna Fáil style they all upped and walked out; they do not listen. They come from the Haughey era and that culture has brought the country to its knees.

That was a culture of finance for favouritism or favouritism for finance — it can be put either way and means the same thing. As a result many people in very high positions in this country are not fit for the jobs they have but they are there because they are the cronies and friends of that culture. At the very worst one can say they were bought by the Government. We have witnessed billions of euro being transferred from one bank to the other to cover up so that what was happening would not become obvious to the ordinary individual. The Government backbenchers did not blame the regulator or anybody else; they blamed the Opposition, which they regard as a soft touch.

We are now suffering from what happened in the Haughey era. They also speak about the Garda investigation, which will be thorough because gardaí are professional and will get to the bottom of it. However, they were not helped by decisions made by the two Brians to leave Anglo Irish Bank alone, give it an unlimited guarantee and then some months later let in the authorities when those guys had transferred their assets, covered their tracks and are now out in the sunny climes with their bellies up to the sun, laughing at the ordinary people who are paying the price. Deputy Thomas Byrne spoke about anger; by God, is it any wonder that the people are angry? A mother with a couple of children can be jailed for stealing food to feed them, but these guys can travel the world.

I started with a quote from Collins and will end with one. In a letter to Desmond FitzGerald on 12 July 1922 he stated:

What we must aim at is the building of a sound economic life in which great discrepancies cannot occur. We must not have destitution or poverty at one end, and at the other an excess of riches in the possession of a few individuals, beyond what they can spend with satisfaction and justification.

I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, to pass that on to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance.

Unfortunately the legacy of the malpractices in our banking systems will be borne for many generations to come. The two banking reports published earlier this year chronicle a series of monumental irregularity and political failures that resulted in the collapse of our banking system, which unfortunately has tainted our financial credibility not just in Europe, but throughout the world. Two years after the taxpayers signed a blank cheque for the bailout of our banks there is considerable anger that nobody has been brought to justice.

I recently read in one of the newspapers that the Financial Regulator had pointed out that 3.6% of all mortgage accounts are in arrears. We all meet people in our constituencies looking for help and they are the human victims of the Irish banking crisis. Young couples who purchased their houses at inflated prices, many of whom have now lost their jobs, are not in a position to meet their mortgage repayments. Statistics provided by the Courts Service reveal that the level of litigation for the recovery of civil debt rose dramatically in 2009. For example, the orders for repossessions in the Circuit Court increased by 35% in 2009 compared to 2008. While ordinary people struggle to pay their personal debts, is it any wonder that we are sickened when we turn on our radios or pick up the newspapers to discover more stories about reckless lending practices in our banks and how billions were loaned to developers and their friends with no questions asked, no collateral and no declarations of credit worthiness sought? It is grotesque and would not happen in a gombeen bank.

A constituent recently told me that even if he negotiated a new deal with the bank and lived for 30 years, he still would not have repaid his debts. There needs to be law and justice on both sides. People used to talk about paying an enormous price for the collapse of the banks and justice needs to be done. Other speakers talked about how soft we are on white-collar crime, which is not the case in the US. The people are angry and will not move on until justice is seen to be done.

While the malpractices in the banks were happening, there was little or no regulation because the political masters were turning a blind eye. I recently read that our former Taoiseach advised EU colleagues in Poland that they should keep a tight control on their financial institutions. It is a pity that he and his Minister for Finance did not do the same when they were in charge of the country. I support the motion and I appeal to the Minister to ensure that the Garda and law enforcement agencies have all the necessary resources to deal with any investigation and that those investigations are finalised as soon as possible.

I have a few questions. Is the Garda adequately resourced with financial expertise? Has there been a putting together of brains to ascertain whether there has been malpractice or other misdemeanours within the banking industry, specifically within Anglo Irish Bank? Are there enough accountants involved? Are enough civil servants in the Department of Finance assisting the Garda investigation? During the week a HSE spokesperson stated that 2,000 people were working in HR in the HSE, but that only 800 were needed. With such public service fat, are we diverting all the resources with the skills and expertise to ascertain what went wrong, where it went wrong and how we deal with the obvious outcomes?

Populism was mentioned by the three absentee landlords in charge of the country who have left, but who blame the Opposition.

Some people want blood. They want prosecutions and they want justice to be served. However, I spoke to a gentleman earlier who is in the middle of a house repossession and I asked him whether he wanted blood or a bed to sleep at night. He said, "Blood is not much good to me if I do not have a bed to sleep in".

Ageism is a problem within the Government with Ministers having no appreciation for the level of negative equity facing my generation. These people are affected through no fault of their own. They bought at high prices because they needed a home and now they are in negative equity of between €200,000 and €300,000. There is a vicious circle. Banks need capital and their shareholders will not vote for a package to bail out people facing mortgage default. Mortgages are assets and each month the banks say they have money coming in. On the other hand, they are advertising liabilities, that is, savings through the broadcast media. They are, therefore, promoting liabilities while they need capital. They have what they consider to be assets in mortgages but 300,000 people will default over the next 18 months. The banks will not have capital and they need to realise, along with their shareholders, that their shares will become irrelevant. The reality is it is an ageist problem not to sort out people in negative equity who will not have a pillow to put their heads on within the next 18 months.

The quotations of our heroes of the past who set up our society and fought for our freedom are apt. The battle we are about as a country is to keep our sovereignty and independence. Accountants and auditors from the IMF and ECB will visit the Department of Finance and the House shortly. That is what everything has come to and the motion has been tabled because of the pass the country has been led to. The only way back from this abyss and away from this appalling Government is to have a general election.

The problem is banks are not lending to business. Small businesses up and down the country are starved of capital while the Government stuffs billions of euro into our banks to keep them going. However, they are hoarding the money and they are not lending. Even at this late stage, I ask the Minister of State to consider the two-tier lending system that works in America. When the Government puts money into the banks, a lower rate of interest attaches to the loans if they prove they will lend to small business while a higher rate attaches when money is hoarded.

I refer to an example that goes to the heart of the battle for survival in this country. A hotel in my home town is in receivership. It has been in the town for many years and the current owners have been in business for 20 years. They have low borrowings. They ran the business well and did not borrow during the boom. However, they are going out of business because they cannot compete with the big guys in NAMA who are not repaying their loans. These guys are cutting the market rate and a good, decent, honest hotel cannot survive in the face of such unfair competition. Why should this hotel go to the wall with the loss of 60 jobs because guys in NAMA who owe billions of euro are getting away with murder while their properties remain open?

There are decent, honourable people in our banks and many of them, thankfully, are gainfully employed. However, there were decent people in the past who were whistleblowers. There were two whistleblowers in Allied Irish Banks, one of whom is Eugene McErlean whom I know personally. He stood up to the rip-off in the bank and when he reported it to management, nothing happened. When he then reported this to our famous regulator, nothing happened either. He was put out of the bank because he insisted on due process and proper accounting. That did not happen and if the Government does nothing else before it leaves office in ignominy, it should put these whistleblowers in our financial institutions to watch what is going on and to ensure integrity is restored to the bank boards through the good changes that are happening. I welcome the new initiative in AIB. Let us have more people who fought the good fight to make sure the banks are accountable, straight and honest. Those are the people we want running our country.

It is disappointing that the position we are in could have been minimised, if not avoided. There were several indications that the economic downturn was approaching but the Government stood by and failed to act accordingly. The indicators of this recession were flashing throughout Europe and the world, and Ireland is now one of the worst hit countries due to the Government fiddling while Rome burned.

This crisis is one of the worst in our recent history and questions must be asked as to why it was let go this far. Upon seeing banks abroad collapse, and knowing we too were facing deep financial difficulties, the Government stood by and allowed us to plummet further into this downward spiral. Why were drastic measures not taken to bring in experts from outside to advise us? Why not replace those in senior positions making critical decisions on behalf of the whole country? We needed to change the banking culture in dealing with customers.

While some elements of the economic downturn were unavoidable, alarm bells should have sounded as far back as 2006. Property boom and lending transactions in the banking sector expanded at a rapid pace. The Government parties have admitted themselves that some of the decisions they took were wrong but for every €100 million the banks loaned, the Government got €40 million at payback time. It is important to ensure we do not go further down the same path. We must protect small businesses, as they have a vital part to play in rescuing the economy. The Taoiseach owes the country an apology. I watched the television programme about ghost estates, ghost shopping centres and ghost hotels. It was an unbelievable programme which put a chill down the back.

The failure of the Government to deal with the banking crisis adequately has led to small businesses being among the hardest hit. Given the amount being invested in the bailout, it means little or no funding can be invested in the development and sustenance of small businesses. There are 1,500 insolvencies annually. The Government has bailed out the banks and one would have assumed they would have supported businesses which, in turn, would have meant business retaining jobs but that is not happening.

We recognise that protecting the banks is important but it is also important to protect people who were not bankers and who have lost their jobs. Many of them were employed in small businesses. It is extremely important to look forward and to focus on putting ourselves back on the right track. The scale of the bailout is the result of slow and inadequate action on behalf of the Government and the effects will be felt by many for the years to come. The mistakes of the few have consequences for many and for the taxpayer who must deal with this mess for the foreseeable future.

The situation is so grave that the world's eyes are on Ireland and how we act. We have not acted quickly or effectively enough. The fear among the people is that we have not yet felt the full force of this bailout. The position changes every week and all we hear about is bankers, bailouts and bonds. The concern is that property prices and wages in Ireland will have to fall even further. Unemployment is at a record high of 14%. The sad truth is that the citizens of Ireland cannot afford to pay for mistakes of the bankers and the Government.

The banking crisis has once again given rise to vigorous debate in this House. The crisis, which was triggered internationally, found the banking sector and the entire economy badly exposed, and we have been dealing with the consequences ever since. Particularly since the sovereign debt crisis and the focus that has been trained on Ireland, from August on, what this country does and says is covered almost daily in the financial pages of the international press. For example, on page 4 of this morning's Wall Street Journal, an article entitled “Europe’s debt worries return” gives some flavour of concerns. It begins:

Borrowing costs of weaker eurozone countries like Ireland and Greece are rising again as fears grow of debt restructurings that could saddle global investors with hefty losses.

Several factors are contributing to the misery of bond markets in countries on the geographic periphery of the 16-nation euro bloc. Ireland's bank bailout is getting ever more costly, and it now looks like taxpayers may have to take control of another large bank.

I do not endorse the accuracy of the report, but I am quoting a typical example of a reporting that is part of the challenge we face. The crisis we are experiencing in the banking sector has been unprecedented in its severity.

The catalogue of events unfolding over the past two and a half years represents a huge challenge not just to the Government but to every party in this House and to the country as a whole.

On 30 September last, the Minister for Finance outlined the Government's policy on banking, set out the position of the financial institutions and brought clarity and certainty to the situation. The costs of the banking crisis are considerable but the Government is confident that they can be managed within the overall context over the coming years. The Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Patrick Honohan, has also confirmed that this is his assessment of the situation.

The banking crisis grew out of a number of factors, including the over-reliance of the banks in this country on lending to property developers in the belief that the property market would not fall or fall much. The banks, in their reckless competition for profits and market share, abandoned all caution, certainly by the standards of the past, in a manner that seems utterly inexplicable; light touch regulation was woefully inadequate. Being a small open economy, the worldwide recession impacted more heavily in Ireland than in most other countries. This backdrop to our own domestic problems has exacerbated the effects of the banking crisis and made its resolution more difficult.

The Government's policy has at all times been directed to securing the banking system, while as far as possible sparing the taxpayer. There are no precedents in our history for dealing with a crisis of this magnitude. The Government had to develop a number of policies to deal with these problems as they rapidly emerged. The Government has acted expeditiously to address the failings in the structure of financial regulation and supervision that were central to the severity of the banking crisis in Ireland. The Central Bank Reform Act 2010 was signed by the President on 17 July 2010, and was commenced on 1 October. A second Central Bank Bill dealing with the powers of the Central Bank will be published shortly and the consolidation Bill will follow when that Bill has been enacted.

The Central Bank Reform Act implements far-reaching changes in financial regulation. Two new posts — head of financial regulation and head of central banking — have been established. The Central Bank is now a fully integrated structure with a unitary board, the Central Bank commission, chaired by the Governor. The Governor remains solely responsible for the European System of Central Banks-related functions.

New and enhanced accountability and oversight mechanisms have also been included, focusing on accountability for regulatory performance, international peer reviews, and appearance before a committee of the Oireachtas by the Governor and the heads of function. In addition, new statutory powers allow the Central Bank to remove or block the appointment of persons to senior positions in the management or on the boards of banks if they fail to satisfy the bank as to appropriate levels of fitness and probity.

The approach that the Government has taken to managing individual institutions in distress has also been rapid and effective. Having provided for the guarantee scheme in September 2008, the Government moved to set up an asset management agency, NAMA, into which the land and development loans could be transferred and the banks' balance sheets cleared of these exposures. This ensured the upfront recognition of the losses in the Irish banks in a transparent manner. The NAMA process ensures that the banks' balance sheets are being cleansed and the concerns about the level of their losses will diminish over time. The alternative would have been to turn a blind eye to the losses and allow the problems caused by the uncertainty about the banks to continue. The transparency and clarity achieved through the operation of NAMA has been recognised internationally as a significant strong aspect of the Government's strategy for the repair and the restoration of the banking system.

However, the European sovereign debt crisis during the summer necessitated that further clarification and certainty had to be brought to the situation to restore our banking system to health and to secure the long-term sustainability of our fiscal position. The statement by the Minister for Finance on 30 September last confirmed that additional capital support would be required by some of our banks and building societies. The Minister also announced that he would seek a contribution from holders of subordinated debt to support the costs of Anglo Irish Bank. To that end, Anglo Irish Bank has recently undertaken a liability management exercise to exchange subordinated debt for one year senior bond at a deep discount. This exercise does not impact on the work that is being undertaken by the Department of Finance and the Attorney General with regards to the reorganisation and resolution legislation to address the issue of burden-sharing with Anglo Irish Bank and the Irish Nationwide Building Society subordinated bondholders. The proposed legislation will be consistent with the requirements for the measures to be recognised as a "reorganisation" under the relevant EU directive in other member states.

The Minister of State has one minute remaining.

I thought I had ten minutes.

No, the slot was for five minutes.

In that case, I ask the House to take the rest of my script as read.

This motion is not about bloodletting, it is about ensuring the House lays down a marker for the Government about the appallingly wasteful management of the bank crisis by the Government to date. The reason our deficit adjustment figure has gone from €7.5 billion to €15 billion is the news of the extraordinary cost of the banking bailout on Black Thursday. That is the cost the Irish people must pay over the next four or five years to deal with the crisis.

I remember when the Governor of the Central Bank, Professor Patrick Honohan, before he took up that post, made it abundantly clear that the rules of capitalism are such that those who take a punt and lose must bear the full cost. Under the Government's scheme, we are bailing them out. It is only late in the day that the Government has accepted that it should seek a contribution from the holders of the subordinated debt to support the cost of Anglo Irish Bank. That was the position of this party 18 months ago, a position that was attacked by the Minister of State and his colleagues, upon which they have now performed a U-turn. There is little comfort for the Irish people that in some form the Government is moving towards a position the Opposition annunciated 18 months ago.

Mr. Matthew Elderfield, to whom the Government refers in its amendment, gave an important speech three weeks ago. He made a fundamental point, suggesting the Government should introduce legislation to bar individuals from having a number of directorships on various bank boards, one of the key problems in the banking crisis, where the same inside gang were involved in the same insider deals, but the Minister of State did not mention that in his speech tonight, he did not mention if that view would be articulated in law.

We should judge the Government by its actions and its actions have been all over the place on this issue. First, we were told €2 billion, then €8 billion, then €12 billion, then €24 billion and now €32 billion at the last count would be the cost for the bank bailout. Why should the Irish people believe the Minister of State when the Government has constantly changed its story over the past two years?

The Irish people expect two things from the Government — they expect personal security from the gardaí and the Army and that the Government will ensure financial security to ensure money will be in the bank to allow them to pay for goods and services, even in difficult times. When it comes to this security, this Government has been found absolutely wanting. This motion was not tabled to upset due process deliberately. We did not refer to individuals, we referred to the slow pace and lack of transparency of the Government's action in this area. The Irish people want those responsible for the crash, and the extraordinary cost of the bailout that a generation will have to pay, to be brought to book. They want to ensure their Government is of a mind to support that. Nothing we have heard in the debate last night or tonight would give people that comfort.

The Minister of State's time miscalculation is another example of this Government's inability to get its figures right on the most simple and basic of things.

We are in this difficulty for two reasons — banks were allowed to lend money to unsustainable projects and the Government let our competitiveness fall down the league table. I have heard much talk in recent years about regulators and Central Bank bankers but, ultimately, the responsibility for managing an economy lies with the Government and no one else. It is one of the great failures of the former Taoiseach's era over the past decade that there was no accountability, the buck did not stop anywhere, everyone was responsible so no one was responsible.

This Government has made mistakes at every hand's turn, from the initial bank guarantee to every policy tool it has used in the last two years. Many countries faced the same difficulties as us but they have gone on about their business. The guarantee scheme in Britain was much more effective and did not lead to the country being bogged down the same way that happened here.

When we interact with the public, we encounter confrontational situations. I can generally deal with it and put up a good fight. However, there is a view that two Irelands exist. It is impossible to explain why no action has been taken against those responsible for the current economic difficulties while many a child who swiped an apple off a stall on Moore Street was imprisoned.

Members earlier pointed out this motion is not about bloodletting or looking for heads to roll. However, justice must be done and be seen to be done. One must suffer the consequences of one's actions. The old maxim holds true that if one makes a mistake, one pays for it. If consequences are not accepted for actions, the same difficulties will recur in the future.

I regret the Government did not support the motion tabled by my colleagues, Deputies Noonan and Shatter. While I do not agree with giving direction to the Director of Public Prosecutions, a message must go out from this House that action will be taken against any wrongdoing, be it blue, white or religious collar crime, and the perpetrators brought to justice. It is one of the elements necessary to restore the international markets' confidence in this country.

The criminal law system must be re-examined with specific offences established. One should not be allowed to present accounts designed to mislead or deceive. I accept people can make financial mistakes and why they may run for cover subsequently. However, since the bank guarantee many bankers, and some individuals in State positions, have lied to the Minister for Finance. This needs to be followed up. It is one matter to make a mistake but to lie about errors which will be paid for by generations to come is another matter. I also believe the bank bailout will not come to €32 billion or €50 billion but to a far greater amount.

Today I walked down Kildare Street to watch our students, some of them my nephews, nieces and neighbours' children, march to this House. While a small group infiltrated them to give their protest a bad name, all were in cheerful humour marching to seek a fair chance in third level education for themselves and their parents and against the re-introduction of third level fees.

If we are going to bail out the banks, the people who Deputy Thomas Byrne referred to in our constituency must also be bailed out. I know his anger about this matter because I have come across the same issue. The people in question cannot make it. They have €350,000 mortgages on houses now worth €200,000 and many of them know it will be almost impossible to pay for their children's university education if fees are re-introduced.

Fairness is what is needed and this is where the Garda comes into the equation. It is argued we should not interfere with the Garda but it is also up to this House to introduce laws that ensure fairness. It is not fair the people who caused our banking problems can sun themselves abroad. It is not fair they can hold on to their houses worth €6 million when the parents of many students cannot even feed themselves at times.

The former Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, knew his policies were wrong. Instead of standing up to them and protecting Ireland's fiscal position when it began to slip, the then Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, did what he was told. I had the height of respect for the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, when first appointed. I no longer do because of the bank guarantee he introduced in this House 15 months ago. When the banks came to him seeking that guarantee that day, he should have asked them how much they had given out and how much they had on deposit. This was an answer he could easily have received in one hour with modern accounting technology. However, by sitting on the guarantee and not requesting that information for the past 15 months, every small business has been taken to the floor by the banks because their credit has dried up. We are now at a point of no return and no one wants the International Monetary Fund running our country.

Fianna Fáil Members should not follow their leader into the hole as they did in the past with Charles Haughey and Deputy Bertie Ahern. They must acknowledge that no international market will give us a penny as long as the people who caused these economic problems are still in office. The last three Fianna Fáil speakers addressed today's High Court judgment on the Donegal South-West by-election. It should never have gone to court in the first place. Will the four by-elections be called now? Why does the Government not call a general election to clean the decks and seek approval for its four-year plan? That is what the people want.

Most Members can get on all right. All the students protesting outside today wanted was a fair chance for themselves and their parents. If we are going to bail out the banks, we must also help those caught in negative equity, like the parents of those students protesting today. Otherwise, we are going nowhere.

I support this motion. There is anger and disbelief at the economic treason carried out by a few in this country. People do not want blood or heads to roll but answers and those responsible to be held accountable. Those responsible were rewarded for their failure and corruption with golden handshakes. A property bubble was in place in which we were selling overpriced houses to one another and felt we were on top of the world while the Government failed to act. When the property market failed, the people suffered.

There were protests by students outside this House today, just like those several years ago by senior citizens. I commend them for this because they are feeling the brunt of the economic hardships brought on us by the Government.

They should also protest outside Anglo Irish Bank's headquarters where the real power was during the property boom. Then, Ireland was not a democracy but an oligarchy, a country run by a cabal of select individuals and groups. We have paid the price for this.

What is needed now is a Parliament that will hold its Members responsible and a democracy in which everyone counts and that will give hope and leadership to everyone. I believe the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance are decent and honest. All the people want them to do is to put their hands up and admit they got it wrong instead of putting their heads in the sand. Politicians must be accountable and the people want answers from this Parliament.

I received a letter from a constituent today whose business overdraft has been limited to €20,000. Six jobs are now riding on him getting his overdraft extended. While I know the banks must repair their balance sheets, we must assist small businesses such as this. We must also stand up to the vested interests which got us into this economic mess.

I commend the motion to the House.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 70.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, Barry.
  • Andrews, Chris.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Bobby.
  • Behan, Joe.
  • Blaney, Niall.
  • Brady, Áine.
  • Brady, Cyprian.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Browne, John.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Conlon, Margaret.
  • Connick, Seán.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cregan, John.
  • Cuffe, Ciarán.
  • Curran, John.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flynn, Beverley.
  • Gogarty, Paul.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Hoctor, Máire.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kelly, Peter.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kennedy, Michael.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Mansergh, Martin.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O’Brien, Darragh.
  • O’Connor, Charlie.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • O’Donoghue, John.
  • O’Flynn, Noel.
  • O’Hanlon, Rory.
  • O’Keeffe, Edward.
  • O’Rourke, Mary.
  • O’Sullivan, Christy.
  • Power, Peter.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Scanlon, Eamon.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • White, Mary Alexandra.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Bannon, James.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coonan, Noel J.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Creighton, Lucinda.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Flanagan, Terence.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McEntee, Shane.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O’Donnell, Kieran.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Keeffe, Jim.
  • O’Mahony, John.
  • O’Shea, Brian.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • O’Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reilly, James.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Sherlock, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • Upton, Mary.
  • Wall, Jack.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies John Cregan and John Curran; Níl, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Joe Carey.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to."
The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 70.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Ahern, Noel.
  • Andrews, Barry.
  • Andrews, Chris.
  • Ardagh, Seán.
  • Aylward, Bobby.
  • Behan, Joe.
  • Blaney, Niall.
  • Brady, Áine.
  • Brady, Cyprian.
  • Brady, Johnny.
  • Browne, John.
  • Byrne, Thomas.
  • Calleary, Dara.
  • Carey, Pat.
  • Collins, Niall.
  • Conlon, Margaret.
  • Connick, Seán.
  • Coughlan, Mary.
  • Cregan, John.
  • Cuffe, Ciarán.
  • Curran, John.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Devins, Jimmy.
  • Dooley, Timmy.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Finneran, Michael.
  • Fitzpatrick, Michael.
  • Fleming, Seán.
  • Flynn, Beverley.
  • Gogarty, Paul.
  • Gormley, John.
  • Grealish, Noel.
  • Hanafin, Mary.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Healy-Rae, Jackie.
  • Hoctor, Máire.
  • Kelleher, Billy.
  • Kelly, Peter.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kennedy, Michael.
  • Killeen, Tony.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lenihan, Conor.
  • Mansergh, Martin.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • McGrath, Mattie.
  • McGrath, Michael.
  • McGuinness, John.
  • Moloney, John.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Mulcahy, Michael.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Ó Cuív, Éamon.
  • Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
  • O’Brien, Darragh.
  • O’Connor, Charlie.
  • O’Dea, Willie.
  • O’Donoghue, John.
  • O’Flynn, Noel.
  • O’Hanlon, Rory.
  • O’Keeffe, Edward.
  • O’Rourke, Mary.
  • O’Sullivan, Christy.
  • Power, Peter.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sargent, Trevor.
  • Scanlon, Eamon.
  • Smith, Brendan.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • White, Mary Alexandra.
  • Woods, Michael.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Bannon, James.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Breen, Pat.
  • Broughan, Thomas P.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Burton, Joan.
  • Carey, Joe.
  • Clune, Deirdre.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coonan, Noel J.
  • Costello, Joe.
  • Coveney, Simon.
  • Crawford, Seymour.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Creighton, Lucinda.
  • D’Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, John.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Doyle, Andrew.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • English, Damien.
  • Feighan, Frank.
  • Ferris, Martin.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Flanagan, Terence.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Hayes, Brian.
  • Hayes, Tom.
  • Hogan, Phil.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kehoe, Paul.
  • Lynch, Ciarán.
  • Lynch, Kathleen.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McEntee, Shane.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McGrath, Finian.
  • McHugh, Joe.
  • McManus, Liz.
  • Mitchell, Olivia.
  • Morgan, Arthur.
  • Naughten, Denis.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
  • Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
  • O’Donnell, Kieran.
  • O’Dowd, Fergus.
  • O’Mahony, John.
  • O’Shea, Brian.
  • O’Sullivan, Jan.
  • O’Sullivan, Maureen.
  • Penrose, Willie.
  • Perry, John.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reilly, James.
  • Ring, Michael.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheahan, Tom.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Sherlock, Seán.
  • Shortall, Róisín.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Stanton, David.
  • Timmins, Billy.
  • Tuffy, Joanna.
  • Upton, Mary.
  • Wall, Jack.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies John Cregan and John Curran; Níl, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Joe Carey.
Question declared carried.
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