Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Enda Kenny

It appears as if there has not been any urgency on the part of the Government in the pursuit of reckless activity in banks. The information available in the media today clearly indicates attempts by former Anglo Irish Bank employees to obstruct the course of justice and not to give the information regarding the encrypted files that many of them have. This is a situation that has outraged the people of the country, that has left our economy in tatters and is responsible for the disaster about to be inflicted upon the next generation.

Deputy Noonan pointed out in this House on a number of occasions that 50 people have been prosecuted and put behind bars in the United States, yet here in Ireland nothing effectively has happened beyond a further extension of the Director of Corporate Enforcement's remit.

Speaking in the Dáil last month in response to Deputy Shatter, the Minister for Justice and Law Reform said in regard to information being withheld that is owned by the bank that if people are not co-operating, it would be an offence under the law. So it should be and so it is. The Taoiseach owns Anglo Irish Bank. This information in these encrypted files is critical and may be vital in prosecuting people for criminal or illegal activities. I want to know why the Taoiseach has not instructed Anglo Irish Bank to take a civil action and bring these people to court in order that this information can be made available to the public.

The Taoiseach

It is not correct to say that nothing is happening. The biggest investigation in the history of the State in regard to this area is being conducted under our laws and Constitution. That is being conducted by an independent prosecutor service based on evidence being collated by the Garda Síochána and by the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. All Members of the House would like to see these matters brought to a conclusion as quickly as possible but it is not correct to say that the Government is in position to interfere in regard to the conduct of the investigation. That is not correct but we want to see this matter dealt with as quickly as possible.

As the Deputy will be aware, there are rules in regard to the Central Bank Acts and other Acts relating to banking legislation. A very thorough investigation is ongoing, as the Deputy will be aware. We all want to see it concluded. All the resources required to conduct that investigation are being provided and we would like to see a matter brought to the Director of Public Prosecutions as quickly as possible. I am aware counsel is working on behalf of that body and is liaising with the people concerned who are conducting the investigation. The Garda Commissioner said recently that he expected further progress in regard to it very shortly. We welcome that statement and would like to see it concluded as quickly as possible.

Deputy Enda Kenny

That is not satisfactory. Does the Taoiseach not understand the anger of people on the streets and throughout the country at this continual carry-on? I am not asking the Government to interfere in the course of justice. The Taoiseach said that all resources are being made available in order that this can be brought before the Director of Public Prosecutions, but they are not being made available because there are encrypted files owned by Anglo Irish Bank with information owned by that bank. Those files and the contents of them are not being released and cannot be accessed because they are encrypted. The Taoiseach owns the bank. The people who encrypted those files are responsible for the obstruction of justice in the sense that this information is not being made available to the prosecuting authorities. The Taoiseach has the key to release that because he can instruct Anglo Irish Bank to take a civil action against those people in order that the encrypted files can be brought to the knowledge of the prosecuting authorities. That is a resource the Taoiseach can use. The people want to see that this is brought to finality.

In view of the Minister for Justice and Law Reform having said last month that it is a criminal offence to withhold information and this information is being withheld, I ask the Taoiseach again if he will instruct Anglo Irish Bank to sue in these cases in order that these files can be unencrypted.

While I am on my feet, the situation regarding Anglo Irish Bank and the Taoiseach's relationship with it arose again at the weekend.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have limited time now.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

You certainly have.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Government has a limited amount of time.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

Does the Opposition want a head again?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Members opposite have limited time left.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Their time is nearly up.

Deputy Joan Burton

Ollie Rehn got the head.

Deputy Enda Kenny

I understand that we have limited time.

Deputy Enda Kenny

When the then Minister, Deputy Cowen, was nominated to become Taoiseach, he attended a function with the board of Anglo Irish Bank in April 2008. When we asked a question on this in the Dáil, the Taoiseach said that this was a long-standing dinner engagement with Anglo Irish Bank and that it had no relevance to this situation. I take the Taoiseach at his word in what he said, but he has now been directly contradicted by a former director of Anglo Irish Bank. He states: "He was acutely aware of our problems. The conversation at that dinner was interesting. The big man has been less than truthful about it."

The Taoiseach

Who is he?

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach made his comment about the long-standing dinner in April 2008 when he answered questions in the House. I ask him again to clarify the position in view of the comments made by a former Anglo Irish Bank director which directly contradict what the Taoiseach said about the issue. Will he clarify the matter again?

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Deputy Kenny should name the former director.

The Taoiseach

On the first matter raised by Deputy Kenny, everything possible is being done to assist the prosecuting authorities in bringing forward prosecutions based on evidence that has been compiled legally and in accordance with the law. There is no division in the House that the matter must be conducted in that way. The authorities concerned will advise on all of these issues and everything will be pursued. There is no hiding place for anybody.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Government should pursue the matter in the courts. The State owns the bank.

The Taoiseach

One understands the anger and frustration of people in relation to this matter. They are shared by many Deputies on all sides. However, we have to make sure that there is every prospect that whatever is brought forward is successfully prosecuted. This has to be done in accordance with the law. That is what is happening and we would like to see that completed as quickly as possible.

The other canard the Deputy raises——

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Minister for Justice and Law Reform has indicated it is a criminal offence to withhold information.

The Taoiseach

——was brought up previously and I dealt with it. I do not know whether Deputy Kenny answers anonymous letters but if someone is not prepared to put his or her name to what he or she says, it is hard for me to deal with the issue or question what motivation lies behind it. I can say a number of things about this matter. First, there was no discussion of the details of Anglo Irish Bank at the meeting in question.

Deputy Joan Burton

Either details or generalities.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Burton is another conspiracy theorist. I made sure I attended a dinner which had been arranged and which other people in previous positions, including people on the Deputy's side of the fence, had attended. It was a quarterly meeting to which people are invited. I spoke generally about the economy and all the rest of it. There was nothing specific about Anglo Irish Bank in relation to that matter. If the Deputies wish to go off and check with people, they should do so.

I am not here to answer anonymous claims by anybody. If someone does not have the guts to put up what they are saying so that we can see what is the motivation behind their words, it is very hard for me to answer them. I am making clear, however, that I have nothing to hide in relation to the matter. None of the stuff being relayed by whoever said it and which has been faithfully printed by some of the newspapers here is true.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Taoiseach is very touchy.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

When an individual citizen is badly treated or does not get fair play from a public body, the course open to him or her is to take a case to the Ombudsman. The Office of the Ombudsman was established by the Oireachtas to provide an independent means of investigating complaints by members of the public. The idea is that a fair examination of the case takes place and the individual gets fair play.

Yesterday, we had a report from the Ombudsman on the right of older people to nursing home care. I acknowledge that the report criticises Governments of all hues over the past 25 years and that there are significant financial implications in what the Ombudsman had to say. In the course of her report, she said that she encountered "unprecedented opposition, and a lack of co-operation" by the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive in the conduct of her examination. Yesterday, the Minister for Health and Children publicly rejected the report. This is the second time in quick succession that a Department has rejected a report from the Ombudsman. In recent weeks, the Government used its majority and applied the whip to vote down the lost at sea report at an Oireachtas committee.

What is the Taoiseach's response to the criticism of the Ombudsman that she encountered "unprecedented opposition" and "a lack of co-operation" by the Department of Health and Children and the Health Service Executive in the conduct of her examination? Does the Government reject the Ombudsman's report on nursing home care? Is it not now the case that there is a pattern of the Government rejecting reports from the Ombudsman and, in effect, undermining her independence and, in the process, the right of individual citizens to have recourse to an independent body to investigate complaints against public authorities?

The Taoiseach

The matter that was referred to was a request regarding issues that were under litigation. On the advice of the Attorney General, this information is not made available to anyone, nor is it within the remit of the Ombudsman's Act to obtain it.

There was a suggestion that there was no legal certainty in these matters. The Oireachtas enacted legislation prior to the investigation in question being undertaken which provided legal certainty. The nursing home support scheme, which has been favourably received by all Members based on its good operation and the equitable position it establishes between public and private nursing home care for people to obtain nursing home care based on their means and needs and an assessment of a multidisciplinary team, has been broadly welcomed in the House. Legal certainty was provided by the Oireachtas before the investigation started.

The other matter relates to the suggestion that nursing home care is provided regardless of budgets, which is clearly not the case. All public services are provided based on resource availability, the adequacy of resources and the resources being applied at a given time. Legal certainty has, therefore, been provided.

On the question of litigation issues, that is not a matter to which the statutory person concerned is entitled.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I suppose the Government would say that, would it not? Everything the Taoiseach said is opinion. Among the matters the Ombudsman was investigating was the position regarding 300 cases that have been taken against the HSE and the Department of Health and Children in respect of nursing home care. It is clear from the report that there is a major issue with regard to nursing home care, the complaints individuals and families have about the way in which they have been treated and what the Ombudsman described as inconsistency in the way in which the nursing home subvention has been provided over a period of time.

Clearly, what is happening here is an obstruction by Government of the Ombudsman's investigation. The Ombudsman nailed that by referring to what she describes as unprecedented opposition and frustration of her investigation by both the Health Service Executive and the Department of Health and Children. This follows a pattern. It is not an isolated case of one investigation by the Ombudsman being frustrated by a Department. The Government has been systematically slaughtering the watchdogs whose purpose is to stand up for the rights of individual citizens. It dismantled the Freedom of Information Act, forced the resignation of the chief executive of the Equality Authority and abolished the Combat Poverty Agency.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please put a question?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

This is the second time within a short period that the Government has sought to undermine the independence of the Office of the Ombudsman, the purpose of which is to stand up for individual citizens and those who have a complaint to make against a public authority. The Government is a serial offender as far as dealing with the bodies that are supposed to stand for people, including the Ombudsman, is concerned.

The Taoiseach

I do not accept that. It is not the case. The case mentioned in the report to which the Deputy referred is before the courts.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

It was a wide-ranging report.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to continue. We may have only one speaker at a time.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has made a few assertions which I would like to answer with some facts. That case is before the courts. The Ombudsman does not deal with issues before the courts. The Office of the Ombudsman deals with administrative malpractices and complaints that come before it. If a person seeks to resolve a matter through the courts, it is dealt with by the courts. The Ombudsman in that respect is not an alternative to the courts as the courts deal with such legal matters. Administrative issues that arise regarding malpractice or a complaint are dealt with by the Ombudsman. That is the answer to that question.

Second, the Department, as is its duty, is entitled to put its position regarding these matters. That does not undermine anyone.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

That is not the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy.

The Taoiseach

That simply is a Department putting its view in respect of——

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

She states it does not co-operate.

The Taoiseach

There was no question of not co-operating. There was no question of that because——

Deputy Liz McManus

Is the Taoiseach calling her a liar?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Is she wrong then?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore, please. The Taoiseach, without interruption.

The Taoiseach

On the allegation that is being made, yes. The allegation that is being made is that the Department failed to co-operate with the investigation. The investigation sought to obtain the legal strategy in respect of cases that were before the courts. That is not within the remit of the Ombudsman Act. That office does not deal with legal matters before the courts. This is the point.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Should she be sacked?

The Taoiseach

The Department made it clear from the outset of the investigation, having consulted as normal with the Office of the Attorney General, that it could not accept that a number of areas of the proposed investigation came within the ambit of the Ombudsman Act 1980. In fact, the Ombudsman's report of 2001 on nursing homes subventions acknowledged that "the Ombudsman's jurisdiction relates to administrative actions only and does not encompass all of the elements which make up the wider governmental process". Similarly, the Ombudsman's remit does not cover the conduct of litigation by the State. These are the facts of the situation and it is clear, from the representations made to the Ombudsman and published today that the Minister has fundamental concerns about the manner in which the investigation was undertaken and the failure to follow fair procedures, as well as regarding the content, scope and language of the report. These issues will be considered carefully now that the final report has been published.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 10 Nov 2010

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Nov 2010