Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill 2010: Second Stage (Resumed)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

I am pleased to speak to the Bill on Second Stage. This debate was commenced early this afternoon by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív. I was interested in the contributions made by the Minister and the spokespersons for Fine Gael and the Labour Party. The Minister referred to the level of increases in social welfare payments, noting, for instance, that the pension rate has increased by 120%, unemployment benefit by 130% and child benefit by 330% in the past 12 years. In the same period, the increase in the cost of living was approximately 40%. These are astonishing statistics. I was amazed, therefore, to hear the spokesperson for the Labour Party, Deputy Shortall, describe the figures as reprehensible. While she may not have used that word, that was the effect of her comments. She also stated the Minister should be ashamed of them. I was very pleased to learn of these increases as they demonstrate that when money was available we gave it to those who needed it.

When, as is often the case in interviews, the accusation is made that the Government squandered money, I always ask whether less money should have been allocated to pensioners, the National Roads Authority, special needs assistants or teachers. The figures I have cited show what we tried to do.

To be fair to Deputy Shortall, she later stated that this money could have been spent on job creation. We must first have regard to those who need State assistance or benefits of one kind or another. While we hope the forthcoming budget and four year plan will allow a much greater focus on jobs and growth in the economy, it is wrong to argue that it this money should not have been spent. It was good that those who were in need received.

I recall reading in The Sunday Times on the Sunday after the Minister’s appointment that he wished to be a reforming Minister. I welcomed his statement at the time because social welfare, or social protection as it is now known, has never been associated with reform. Various Ministers, including some who are in the Chamber at present, sought to make changes but it always was difficult to move along colossus of a Department, the job of which is to pay out and to ensure that no one is left without receiving his or her payment.

The Minister hopes that the moving of the employment and community services units of FÁS will not be a simple transfer to him but that they will be integrated fully within his Department to provide an end to end service to its customers. In other words, labour activation and the other measures will have a positive focus and an end result, in that those who wish to avail of social protection payments also will bring with them the responsibility of seeking jobs and of being actively in the market place to seek a job. It will be the remit of the Department to ensure that they will so do. There will be a new case by case management approach allowing trained staff to interact on a one-to-one basis with individuals on developing pathways to employment with clearly defined milestones and targets.

This is a very good idea and will be focused on progressing people to participation in the workforce. For decades, I have felt that no matter how much the money or the payments were needed, one should not simply hand them out without ever trying actively to help that person in a focused, integrated way. Such a person should be helped to get training and employment in order that he or she would not be caught in the trap of dependency but that he or she would have a chance to emerge from it. The Minister stated, "Such an approach not only makes economic sense but also allows our services to be tailored to meet the individual needs of each customer and to respect and enhance their dignity as individuals". This is correct and must be one of the stronger points of this approach. I believe people's dignity will be enhanced if their chances of getting a job are enhanced, because true dignity lies in being able to earn one's living and bring home something at the end of the week.

It has become fashionable to bewail FÁS and everything it did. I wish to emphasise the good that FÁS has done over the years. I do not stand over events in the latter years. All Members are familiar with them and there is no need to enumerate names or lay out where they went or what they did as that has been well done in the various reports. However, in so doing, one overlooks the great work FÁS did. Between 1992 and 1994 I worked with Deputy Quinn in the then Department of Industry and Commerce — renamed the Department of Enterprise and Employment — as Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs. While travelling around the country, I learned of the work FÁS did in enhancing villages and towns, as well as people's capabilities for work, through the very good training it gave participants on its community employment schemes. Moreover, many of those participants then left and were able to take up full-time meaningful paid employment. I acknowledge they were also paid while engaged in community employment schemes and later on in the farm assist and social employment schemes.

However, I pay tribute to Deputy Quinn in this regard because he gave participants a gold stamp. They were not just doing a scheme but were carrying out proper work with proper training and proper payment. Many people went through those programmes and in so doing contributed to the physical enhancement of Ireland. I recall doing a video for the agency at one of its anniversaries at which I was asked to think up a slogan about community employment. I stated that FÁS has changed the face of Ireland. It had done so because there was a period when one could not go through a town or village in Ireland without seeing its red sign, as well as the work that had been done by the participants on a FÁS scheme.

These FÁS units will bring many skills to the new integrated Department of Social Protection. I am sure the Minister will look into the matter but I hope the employment rights of those who have transferred will be kept as they were and there will be no diminution in their rights as they move over. However, cometh the hour, cometh the man and I believe the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív will be well able to complete that integration and to ensure the position of those who enter this new Department.

During the summer, the Minister stated there would be 10,000 new employment opportunities on the new integrated community and social employment schemes. While I am sure it was coincidental, he again announced this in The Sunday Times. While that is a positive development, I would like to see such jobs coming about. People should begin to be employed on these schemes. I acknowledge that those who work on schemes that have access to children or with children must get vetting permission, which must issue from Thurles through the Garda vetting bureau. This can occasion some delay from time to time. However, the Minister should speed up his ambitious target of 10,000 places on a new enhanced scheme. In so doing and in so bringing people’s minds to bear on the opportunity they might have to get into employment, he should not neglect the training aspect of the employment scheme on which they are placed. It is all very well to state that one must show one is willing to work for one’s protection payment, which is quite correct. However, this should not be to the effect of waylaying or failing to fulfil their training opportunities because these should also be available. This is what will make a better person and will produce the better outcome.

The Minister stated that a rent supplement cannot be paid beyond 31 March 2012 in any case where the landlord has failed to provide his or her tax reference number. In addition, the Bill makes it an offence if a landlord does not so do. This is right and will do away with what was an ongoing mini-scandal of one kind and another, whereby people with houses to rent could offer such houses in very poor condition and could impose whatever rents they wished. This is a correct way in which to put a shape on this issue. Moreover, the introduction of electronic means of making and capturing declarations of unemployment that are required for the purpose of claiming jobseeker's benefit and jobseeker's allowance also is a very good thing.

Given that times are difficult for everyone, it now is impossible to attend a residents' association meeting, a focus group meeting or a meeting of any kind without the talk turning to fraud. People instance occasions about which they have heard, although much of this is a case of "dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi" or hearsay. People gain some kind of relief in giving out about what they have heard in respect of particular rates. People will tell one they know of someone who received a twin buggy and who, only two weeks later, got another twin buggy.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is right.

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

The person concerned must be very fertile if she did, because I do not know how she could have twins twice within a month. However, these are the kind of urban myths which, once promulgated, tend to fly everywhere. Moreover, the community welfare officers and social welfare staff are always blamed. Much of this is tosh, hearsay and incorrect but it gives people a good feeling to think they are pointing out, as they perceive it, shortcomings in the system. My response to people is that they should try to live on what one gets from a non-contributory old-age pension.

It is a sad feature of the difficult times in which people are living that they want to cast stones at others. When I spoke publicly about the non-contributory old age pension, which is basic income, and said people should be left with it, I was amazed at the number of e-mails I received from people who said, "Why should you lift that benefit out and talk about it?" I wrote back to each one and said, "You try living on that some time", to parody a very well-known person. I will not give his name here; that would not be right. It is a sad fact that people want, in an atavistic way, to probe and shout at people who they think are getting more than they are. These stories excite people, who then want to cut, cut, cut. That is wrong.

I am interested in what the Minister said about section 8. Current legislation requires a person registering for a PPS number to submit a photograph and signature. However, the Minister said, "it is not practical to collect these items in all cases, for example where the customer is non-resident or deceased and in probate cases. Section 8 clarifies the position by only requiring that these items be submitted when required". There was a time when I thought the public services card represented big brother looming in on us and requiring too much information. Carrying one's card and zapping it in to gain access to many services now has a very modern connotation and would be a very good thing, in itself. It would augur well.

I am interested in this legislation. I know this might be a catch-all Bill because it is a miscellaneous provisions Bill. Miscellaneous measures usually gather up things that have fallen through the cracks since the last miscellaneous or genuine Bill. I note that the Minister has said he will bring forward a number of amendments. That is very refreshing. He is not even waiting for us to put forward amendments. He will bring them forward himself. They will deal with the provisions of the Civil Partnership and Certain Rights and Obligations of Cohabitants Act 2010. They will follow up civil partnership legislation. Instead of sitting back and saying, "Weren't we great to bring in that Bill?", there are now outfalls of that legislation which must be finalised, and the Minister is going to do that.

I am interested in the introduction of a partial capacity scheme, which will begin to address a critical limitation of the current social welfare code which categorises people with long-term illnesses or disabilities as either fit for work or unfit for work. The focus within the welfare system on incapacity rather than capacity carries negative consequences for people with disabilities and their families, who may be trapped in welfare dependency. The Minister will also introduce an amendment to provide for the transfer of community welfare officers from the HSE to the Department of Social Protection. That is very good. The Department will also take responsibility for the supplementary welfare allowance, which is currently administered by the HSE.

When Deputies meet people who are unable to get supplementary welfare benefit and put down a parliamentary question on their behalf, the Minister is reliant on the information coming to him from the HSE. We then go round and round the mulberry bush. Officials of the HSE, with responsibility for hospitals, waiting lists and all the rest of it crowding in on them, are very slow to get at supplementary welfare benefit, and particularly slow to get at the real cause of what is wrong.

I did not hear the Minister refer to the habitual residency clause, HRC, but I would like to speak about it myself. When people come back from England they do not look at a map and decide to live in Athlone or Mullingar, for example. Why would they? A couple often decide to settle where one of them has roots. I had such a case recently. A husband and wife came back from the United Kingdom where the husband had worked for many years — he was not work shy — and they settled in a rural town in County Westmeath. The lady of the couple was a native of the town and all her sisters and brothers lived there. They had grown-up children in the United Kingdom and one son of 17, who had started an apprenticeship course in the UK and quickly enrolled and was taken on in FÁS. So far, so good. They then wished to apply for various benefits, but they were told they did not qualify because they did not meet the requirements of the HRC.

I think that is wrong. It is different when people who have no links with an area or were never heard of before suddenly appear there. This couple had strong familial links with the rural town in which they wished to settle. I thought we had protocol arrangements between the Department of Social Protection and the equivalent agency in the United Kingdom, through the office in Newcastle-on-Tyne. The husband in this case had paid national insurance contributions for 41 years. He was not a work shy individual trying to run to Ireland to pick up benefits. Neither was his wife; she was native to the town. As they were not habitual residents they did not qualify for benefit, or so said the supplementary welfare officer on behalf of the HSE.

Supplementary welfare officers are the most dogged people. I am sure they will read what I am saying in the Official Report, and I hope they do. There are hierarchies of supplementary welfare officers. There is the ordinary officer one meets in one's local office. There then appears to be an officer who is a step above that. Then there is a superintendent, who is like God. He — and it is mostly he — will decide whether people are eligible for whatever benefit they are applying for.

I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Áine Brady, and her officials, who are in the Chamber, to take a note and have a keen look at the habitual residency clause, which is militating against genuine applicants for social welfare benefit.

While I am on my feet I will make another observation based on clinic work. I often think what Deputies hear in their clinics can permeate what they say on legislation. It is a wonderful way of combining two aspects of a Deputy's work.

I know you have an impatient face on you, a Cheann Comhairle, but I simply have to tell this story.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am loth to ask you to conclude, Deputy. We are all listening to you with great attention.

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. You are very nice. Never mind what some other women say to you. I think you are very good.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

As well.

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

Of course, I do not cross you, so there you are.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Not as much as I do.

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

The second case is of a man whose business went belly-up. He and his brother both lost a sight of money. They have no money. This man is a widower. He is getting his widower's pension and only for that he would be crucified. He is looking for mortgage relief but they keep saying he is part owner of a demolished building. It has no monetary value, land value or building value. His application has been refused by supplementary welfare officers, who feed information to the Minister's office for his replies to my parliamentary questions. Finally, and to give the Minister his due, when I put down a fifth written question on the matter last week, I got a telephone call from Deputy Ó Cuív. He said, "You know that case you keep referring to in parliamentary questions?" I said, "Yes", and I trotted out the man's name. He said, "Well, you get him to do the following". He told me to tell the man to go to a solicitor, get a letter saying he had no interest in a demolished building or money in the bank and send it to the HSE.

I cite this case as an example of the dog-in-the-mangerish way some supplementary welfare officers work to their agenda. They will be far better off under the ambit of the Department of Social Protection.

Thank you for you leniency, a Cheann Comhairle. I am finished.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I am delighted to have an opportunity to speak after my colleague and fellow member of the Joint Committee on European Affairs, Deputy Mary O'Rourke. I will certainly draw inspiration from many of her remarks. She referred to information gleaned at clinics. That is coalface information that can be obtained nowhere else.

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

Exactly.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Nobody can obtain it except one who deals with people on the coalface on a one-to-one basis.

Deputy Mary O’Rourke

Absolutely.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

One obtains an understanding of circumstances at that level that one cannot read about or research. One cannot have the information imparted to one in any other way.

I had a quick glance through the four year plan and noticed that many of the provisions of a punitive nature are to come into effect in 2012 and the year thereafter. It is like a boomerang in that it comes back and hits one more than once. I was wondering why the Opposition was being encouraged to vote for the budget and year one of the four year plan. I now know. It could have implications for all of us.

The Minister stated that, "In the past 12 years, we have increased pension rates by about 120%, unemployment benefits by almost 130% and child benefit by 330%", the theory being that when we had the money we spent it. I am not so sure what the Minister was trying to say. Was he saying that while the Government gave the people money in the good days, it will take it back from them in the bad days? That is what it sounds like and what it means to the people who are facing this dubious prospect. It is not in the good days that people need money but in the bad days. We will soon find out the truth when we start knocking on doors around the country. Knock on doors we will do.

The Minister stated: "In a continuation of the trend of recent years, and as a re-affirmation of the Government's commitment to all those in need of support, €20.9 billion will be spent by the Government in 2010 on social welfare provision — €500 million or 2.45% more than 2009." That does not address in any way the fact that the demand on the Department is much higher than it was heretofore. The Minister continually says, in reply to parliamentary questions, that the number of social welfare appeals of one kind or another has increased by 45%. This is the case simply because there are more people unemployed. While it is understandable that more people are unemployed, how could it be that more appellants are ill? It could not be possible that there is more illness; the only conclusion one can come to is that the manner in which the cases are being processed is such that more regard is had to the availability of funds than to the actual needs of the people concerned. That is a very dangerous place to go and I have said so to the Minister at meetings of the committee.

The Minister stated recently that many pensioners are very wealthy. I do not know how he came to that conclusion. Anybody working at the coalface will know that, in recent years, many people who retired and who had invested their savings in what turned out to be very dubious investment products, lost everything. I do not know whether people realise this but it is a fact. My constituency colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Áine Brady, who is sitting opposite me, knows this full well. I cannot understand why the Minister made his comment on pensioners. Was it to aggravate them? It certainly was not to reassure them. It caused them great anxiety at a time when they feel vulnerable.

The theory is that there will be no cuts to the old age pension in the current year. From what I can gather from the hidden agenda in the four year plan, the plan will not expire without a negative visitation upon pensioners. When the Minister concluded that pensioners are rich, he made no reference whatsoever to the fact that, some years ago before a general election, the then Government, which was 95% the same as the current one, decided to award free medical cards to all those over 70, whether they were rich, poor or otherwise. I do not know why. Was this a sweetener for election purposes? Irrespective of what it meant, the measure was withdrawn afterwards. Not only do pensioners no longer have free medical cards, in many cases they do not qualify for a medical card at all. Many others are in a similar position.

It is all very fine to talk about what the Government did in the good times and to claim credit for it. We must realise we are no longer in the good times. The reason for social protection — the term "social protection" implies this — is to have a stable payment upon which people can rely in bad times, when circumstances are not so secure, when the horizon is not so bright and when a vision of the future is not so stable.

I have noted all the payments that will be targeted. They include child benefit, which has been open to attack for years. Everybody asks about millionaires. What have they to do with it? There is no need for a millionaire to draw child benefit in the first instance but there is a very genuine need for those who depend on the benefit to draw it. Many households in this country depend on child benefit to pay the mortgage. If we believe circumstances are bad now, we must realise that after three of the four years encompassed in the four year plan have expired, we will recognise the need for child benefit in a big way. I predict that before the period encompassed by the four year plan has expired, somebody will have to revisit the social welfare code and increase child benefit to a level not seen before. Otherwise, as I know from my constituency work, it will not be possible for some families to survive.

Punitive elements, as anticipated at all levels, multiply the negative impact on the household. For example, many unemployed people are living in houses that are in negative equity. They have cantilevered mortgages. After six months, or a year or more in some cases, these unemployed people fall behind significantly in their repayments. Those unfortunate people are very concerned. We are dealing with them now and, if not, we should be. It is not a question of how they got into such circumstances or of saying it was their fault because it was not their fault. They were encouraged to go down the road they went down and told to get on the property ladder. They were told to do something for themselves and they did so. Now they are paying for it.

Prior to an election some years ago, there was a headline in one of the newspapers stating that it was payback time. Unfortunately, it is payback time for many of the people to whom I refer who are suffering. It is very easy for us to say funds and resources are limited and that we must cut the cloth according to measure. The fact of the matter is that it is no consolation to those people.

When we try to intervene with the mortgage providers, we do not receive a very positive response. In the past week, I experienced a case in which a mortgage provider asked the mortgage holder whether his house was in negative equity and whether it could be sold. In other words, he was told that if he could not pay, if his house was not in negative equity and if the bank could get its money back, he should sell it and get out on the road. That is harsh reality of life as it is now unfolding. We, as public representatives elected to the national Parliament, have a duty to ensure people are not pushed to the wayside. If we do not do this duty, we are letting society down. The Minister responsible for social welfare, whoever he may be, irrespective of whether he calls himself "the Minister for Social Protection" or "the Minister for Social Destruction",——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Deputy O'Connor would make a good Minister for social reconstruction. It is very important that we recognise that, by ignoring the circumstances I have described, there is a price to be paid. It may be a much bigger price than we anticipate.

Let me refer to the transfer to FÁS. Some people see this in different ways. I am of the view that it could be a good development, provided it improves — by way of the provision of training, the creation of job opportunities and the administration of local schemes — the quality and level of services available to communities.

In recent times, a notion has developed that everyone wants to become unemployed because the rates relating to jobseeker's benefit and allowance are high. That is utter rubbish. Nobody deliberately becomes unemployed. Families enjoy a greater level of satisfaction when the adults in the home are in employment. The difficulty is that many individuals can no longer obtain employment. There have been many statements to the effect that people should go out and get jobs. Of course they should do so, and it would be great if everyone had a job. Unfortunately, however, the current economic situation, which has been developing for the past three years or more, provides no encouragement in this regard. In light of current events, it does not appear that people's prospects will be all that great in the near future.

A person will always try to obtain employment if he or she can do so. If, however, someone has a mortgage to pay, he or she will be given some degree of support to pay it but if he or she is working in low-paid employment, this will not be the case. The reality is that this is what we have inherited from the good times to which the Minister referred earlier.

The Minister made reference to the partial capacity scheme. This scheme may be a good development or it may be a bad one. As a former Minister of State in the then Department of Social Welfare——

Deputy Tom Hayes

And a future Minister of State.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I am not sure about the future. I might not be here after the general election. One just never can tell.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

The Deputy is bound to be here.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I am hoping that I and my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Áine Brady, will be back, possibly on different sides of the House. The Minister of State and I have a good relationship with each other. I hope Deputy O'Connor will also be back because I want to be in a position to slag him.

I wish to comment on a particular notion which has developed about people with perceived disabilities. To say that someone has such a disability suggests that the person with the perception is making a judgment call on the former. That is a very dangerous route to take. There are those who are incapable of holding down employment because they lack either the physical or mental ability to do so. The Minister's proposal that such people should be accommodated may be a good thing. Under the relevant provision, people in this category cannot be forced to work but they will be in a position to engage in light work that will be within their capacity. People with perceived disabilities will certainly welcome this development.

The fact that persons such as these will only be engaging in light work should not mean they should receive reduced incomes. These individuals will require particular care and attention, otherwise they will be obliged to remain on disability payments of one kind or another. As I have stated on previous occasions, there are some individuals who have the mental and physical capacity and strength to overcome even major disabilities and find their own way in the workplace. However, not everyone is blessed in this way and that must be borne in mind. In that context, therefore, we must ensure that any guidelines put in place will deal fairly with people across the board.

In recent times, a great deal of attention has been paid to the elimination of fraud. Deputy O'Rourke's comments on this matter are extremely valid. I do as much work in my constituency as any other Member of the House and I continually hear urban myths in respect of people who are obtaining social welfare and supplementary welfare payments on a daily basis. It is a case of dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi. I am continually informed by people that individuals from other jurisdictions are using the social welfare system here to rake in money on a daily basis. Some 95% of these stories are rubbish.

I accept there have always been isolated cases of fraud. It is stated that the level of fraud or attempted fraud can be up to 5%. There are some cases where, for one reason or another, a person may have inadvertently failed to supply information or where the Department did not take action in order to update is records. We must be aware that punishing people for perceived fraud is a dangerous route to take, particularly in the circumstances in which we currently find ourselves.

The Minister complained about the number of cases that were submitted for appeal in recent years. He indicated that the level of appeals increased by 45% or thereabouts in the past couple of years. That is the case because we are in the midst of a recession and there are huge numbers of people who are unemployed. There are those who, even though they have disabilities or are ill, have sought out employment. These individuals sought special concessions, permission and exemption from the relevant schemes to seek employment. However, it is not always the case that they can do so in the current, extremely competitive labour market. There is a need to monitor the position of such people.

As stated on many previous occasions, the habitual residency clause is an appalling and, in my opinion, unconstitutional method of refusing a payment to someone who would ordinarily be entitled to it. Irish citizens, regardless of whether they were born here, continue to come to this country to care for their relatives. The fact that they do so saves the State a considerable amount of money in the context of its not being obliged to provide institutional care. However, such individuals are informed that their place of habitual residency is not in Ireland and that, as such, they are not entitled to payment. Some of these people were here or were born before those in the Department who make the relevant decisions. Many of them lived through hard times and made a contribution to the economy of this country. However, the Minister and his Department have the cheek to inform them that they do not qualify for payment.

These people have made their contribution. They may not live here now, they may have lived in another jurisdiction for the past five or ten years or they may have left during a previous recession. There is no doubt that they have paid the price and have returned to care for their relatives. There are numerous cases of this kind. It does not matter from where these people come. If a person has a major disability, is in need of care and is legitimately living in this country and has a right to be here and if one of his or her relatives offers to care for him or her, it is far more cost beneficial to the State to facilitate this arrangement rather than to place that individual in an institution. That is a fact. Anyone who wants to challenge my argument in this regard may do so but there is no possibility that I will be proven wrong.

At a recent meeting of the relevant committee, the Minister requested suggestions on this matter. I suggest that those who return here from abroad to care for their relatives should be given the relevant payment. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to devise a way for people in such circumstances to qualify for payment. I return to my original point that if a lack of available resources becomes the determining factor in assessing whether people qualify for payment, then the cause is lost.

There is one final matter to which I wish to refer before the Ceann Comhairle calls time on my contribution.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has one minute remaining.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

There is no way that I could complete my contribution in that amount of time.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

The Deputy will find a way.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It should never be forgotten that people who paid contributions — regardless of whether these relate to sickness benefits, pensions or whatever — during their working lives were obliged to make huge sacrifices in order to pay them. They often raised large families and sometimes found themselves on the bread line, but they survived. When they had finished paying their contributions, they supported their sons and daughters who could not raise the deposit necessary to allow them to purchase houses. The houses that were then bought are now in negative equity and they must try to assist their sons and daughters once again. It is unfortunate to suggest to them that some of them might be wealthy and perhaps we might find ways or means of screwing something out of them once again. It would be unfortunate at any time and it is particularly so at this time.

I note that the State pension is the new name given to the old age pension. The term State pension suggests that the State is paying for it but in fact the contributors themselves paid for it. All that money over their working lives was invested in various funds, such as the social insurance fund, the welfare fund, the pensions fund, etc., and it now should be coming to fruition for them, and we are not so sure about that.

In conclusion, I would say the following to those who now must rely on a payment. Incidentally, Deputy O'Rourke is obviously a very experienced politician and I must compliment her on this. The simple fact of the matter is that when one meets the people face to face in their particular circumstances and they tell you what their circumstances are, it is very easy for those who condemn the unemployed, and state they are being paid too much, those pensions are being paid too much and those who made contributions on sick benefit of one kind or another are being paid too much, to state that they should not be getting that because if they were not getting that much they themselves would feel a little bit better. That is the way society always was. Read about the 1930s. That is what people felt then as well. John Steinbeck wrote eloquently about it at the time and I would recommend it as reading to every Member of this House.

I hope that we have the resolve, determination and strength to come through what lies ahead of us. I hope we do not take it out on the vulnerable in society, own up to what we are going to do and tell the people honestly before, during and after election campaigns. If we do that, we will be doing ourselves a great justice and the nation a great and fair service as well.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I welcome the opportunity to make this brief contribution to the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill. I note that the provisions include transferring the employment services and community services programme of FÁS to the Department of Social Protection, provisions on rent supplement, electronic certification for jobseekers and changes to current provision on the public services card.

The Ceann Comhairle will understand that it is demanding for me, a humble Dublin man, to follow such an esteemed speaker as Deputy Durkan. By the way, I am cheered up by the fact that his Fine Gael colleague, Senator McFadden, appears to have come into the House just to hear me speak. That really encourages me.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Do your best.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Senator McFadden is keeping an eye on Deputy O'Connor.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

That is good.

I was interested in Deputy Durkan's reference to the election, which, let us all admit, is fast approaching. I hope he is correct about who will and who will not be returned, but I hope everybody in the Chamber will be returned, although I note from previous experience that the only person in this House sure of coming back is the Ceann Comhairle because of his esteemed position, but I wish everybody well.

I note that there is a fairly good attendance in the Gallery and Members will be interested to know that some of them are from Tallaght.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That could not possibly be.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I am really pleased that a group of young people from St. Dominic's parish centre and community centre in Tallaght have come in. They heard Deputy Durkan was speaking and they came in to hear him, and I hope they enjoyed it.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I doubt they came in to hear me.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

It is important on a day like this, with everything that is going on, that we go about our normal business and I am really pleased now that the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, has come in just to hear me speak.

I look forward to supporting the Minister. I hope I can speak for everybody in the House when I say he has a difficult job. Politics are politics and the election is on, but the Minister has a difficult task between now and whenever the budget is published, and we need to get a message across to him in that regard.

By the way, I have no hesitation in stating from the Government benches that it is always my belief — this is why I joined Fianna Fáil — that the Government and its successor must continue to protect the vulnerable, and I am not a bit afraid to say that because it is important we would do that.

I come from a humble Dublin background. I remember difficult times in Dublin all those years ago. I still live in Dublin, in Tallaght, and I am aware of the difficulties. Often I say that I bring to my politics my own life experiences. I have had many good experiences but I have also had many challenging experiences, including being made redundant on three occasions. I know exactly what it is like to go to the nice staff in the local social welfare office. By the way, not to be flippant, some of them have told me — I hope I do not get them into trouble — in recent days that if I am going back to them, they will look after me and do their best to facilitate me.

I listened carefully to all of the previous speakers. A previous speaker from the Opposition stated that this Government bought the people with their own money over the past decade. That is an opinion and one can say that.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is fair enough.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I believe genuinely that this is not a time for party politics as usual but, for the sake of the record, I want to make the point that when there were budget surpluses, the Government acted to greatly improve the range of services in schools and in hospitals, to increase the numbers in the Garda Síochána and to improve the support for carers, for one-parent families and for older persons, as well as ensuring that we kept many vulnerable unemployed persons out of poverty by improving social welfare payments.

I am proud that the Government also invested in a new motorway network that has increased the competitiveness of the Dublin region and of all the regions in the global market. The Government also invested in a light rail system for Dublin and we should not be ashamed that there is a Luas line serving the communities, in my case, in Tallaght, with easy access to the city centre. These infrastructural developments have not gone out with the economic tsunami.

It is a day where we must reflect on where we are as a country. I note that the national recovery plan has been published in recent hours and I believe that it is about putting the country back on the road to recovery. The plan is about giving people hope by showing the way ahead and giving certainty about the next four years. I believe it is the duty of the Government to do more straight talking to the people about where we are as a country economically and how we get out of here. Put simply, a big cut in Government spending is required to stabilise the public finances and to turn the economy around.

At the same time, we should continue to support the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, and his successor to ensure that the more vulnerable in the community continue to be supported, and I hope that the Minister would clearly take that message back to Cabinet. I believe strongly that it should not be merely a matter of talking about looking after the vulnerable; we should do it. While we all will be worried about what the national plan states about social protection, the Minister must continue to fight his corner and get the job done.

Many will speak in this debate of the transfer of services relating to FÁS to the Department. Here, I have been impressed, if I can admit that, since Deputy Ó Cuív became Minister in the manner in which he has gone about his business, listening to people and making a strong case for getting people back to work and for labour activation. The Minister accepted an invitation from me in the early days of his new position to come to Tallaght — I am not a bit afraid to talk about Tallaght — and I brought him to Fettercairn community centre. We gathered around him people who were involved in CE schemes, people who were involved in JI, people who wanted to get back to work and people who had issues to discuss. I was accused on a radio programme recently of being president of the Deputy Ó Cuív fan club. If that is what people want to taunt me about, that is okay. I am not a bit afraid to say that I was glad that the Minister came to my community, and he has been out to it a number of times since. He listened to what people were saying and I believe that he is trying to implement a number of the suggestions people made. Indeed, the Minister, if I can be parochial again, since came out to Killinarden and Jobstown at the invitation of the local committees to launch their enhancement programmes, where, again, he had the opportunity to hear what people were saying and to hear what the challenges are for those on community employment. This morning, we had a very interesting meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection, of which I am Vice Chairman. Deputy Durkan and Senator McFadden were in attendance. A delegation came before the committee to discuss the "Your Right Your Fight" campaign of community employment workers. SIPTU and OPEN were also present as were a number of lone parents and other interested parties. The Minister will be glad to know, on the difficult day he might be having today, that the delegation put on record its appreciation of the response he has already made to it. I understand the Minister met the representatives last week. They were very impressed with his attitude towards them and they understand he has undertaken to ensure the campaign is successful. This is very important. Given the all-party approach we took at the joint committee it is important that I record this.

It is important to stress to the Minister that people are making a point about labour activation. They are anxious that the community employment scheme would continue. I can talk all day, as can other colleagues, about my community. I stated at today's committee meeting that my community has a number of very successful community employment schemes. I am a member of the board of Trust Us, which was the Tallaght Welfare Society. I was involved in Get Tallaght Working, which is now known as Partas. At present, I am on the board of the Tallaght rehabilitation project, the Tallaght drugs task force, the Tallaght centre for the unemployed and the Tallaght homeless advice unit, all of which have supported community employment schemes in very strong way over the years.

I have already mentioned the presence in the Dáil today of representatives of St. Dominic's community centre. It is one of the more successful community employment schemes. The Minister has been to St. Dominic's where he was welcomed by the fine board and by the manager, Deirdre Cleary. All of the young people know the type of centre which operates there. The worth of community employment and job initiative schemes can be seen in such centres where people have an opportunity, at a time when they need to be boosted, to get some confidence back. They can get involved in these projects and do good. Not only do these schemes give an unemployed person something very positive and meaningful to do which will boost his or her confidence, it also helps in a very positive way the local community. Tallaght, Firhouse, Templeogue, Greenhills, Brittas and Bohernabreena are no different from anywhere in Louth, Galway, Kildare, Tipperary or Roscommon. People are given an opportunity to go on schemes at a time when, let us be honest, jobs are not plentiful and getting people back to work is a challenge. It has to be about jobs. Whatever about everything that is going on and everything that we will read about tonight and tomorrow, solving the country's difficult situation is about getting people back to work, job activation and creating employment.

I hope, and I state this from the Fianna Fáil benches, that whatever else is in the budget, and there is much doom and gloom about this at present, the Government will understand that whatever about the clear need to stabilise the economy we must also give people confidence. We cannot cancel Christmas. We cannot tell the unemployed, the new poor and people under pressure that there is no future. We must allow people to get about their business, to continue to have confidence and to continue to be able to invest.

In my local social welfare office almost 11,000 unemployed people are signing on. This is the challenge. The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, has visited my community and many others throughout the country. In whatever time is left to the Government I hope the Minister will continue to do what he is good at, which is listening to people, caring about people and trying to do something in a very positive way for those who are less well off. He continues to have my support in this regard and I wish him well.

I am not despondent. Whatever happens to me in the future and whatever happens in the election is okay by me because I am a democrat. I did not come into politics for selfish reasons. I never set out to be a politician; I was a happy community worker living in my community and people encouraged me. I came to the Dáil at an interesting time in my life and I was happy to come here. I am still a happy Deputy despite all of the difficulties that are going on. All I am doing is getting up every morning, working for my community and listening to what people in my community are saying. Not everybody is happy and, let us say quietly, there is some abuse flying and that is fair enough. As I see it, my job when I come to the Dáil on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays is to represent what people say to me and to appeal to the Government to continue to look after the vulnerable, and I will not be distracted from that.

I expect the Bill will continue to get various reactions. It would please people if the Minister took control of those elements of FÁS handed over to the Department of Social Protection. Other colleagues have spoken about FÁS and we all know the challenges and the difficulties faced by FÁS in this regard. I also heard colleagues, including spokespersons, paying tribute to local centres and local offices. The old AnCO centre in Cookstown industrial estate was first opened all those years ago by that good man from Cork, Gene Fitzgerald. I attended that opening; I was much younger then but I remember the day very well. I remember the boost it gave to my community. This was in the days when Tallaght did not have the facilities the community enjoys now. The FÁS centre in Cookstown industrial estate has become very important but it is used less than it should be. On behalf of my community, I hope the Minister will speak to the FÁS management about this. Let us use these centres. Let us get people in and help to retrain them. Let us give them confidence and help them invest in their future. FÁS has challenges but it still has a job to do. If FÁS had a job to do in the good times when there was no real unemployment, it certainly has a job to do now when there is major unemployment. My community has suffered from unemployment in recent times and this has to be tackled.

In the midst of all the gloom, I was present on the Airton Road in Tallaght last Wednesday when the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, visited for the announcement by Paddy Power bookmakers of 500 top-quality jobs. One would be amazed at the boost this gave to our community. All of the other local Deputies, namely, the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, and Deputies Pat Rabbitte and Brian Hayes also attended. It was a great day for Tallaght and the media made the point that we all seemed to have a smile on our face. It is important that we have more such days and other Deputies can speak about their constituencies. As we go forward and tackle the crisis in which we find ourselves, it is important that more jobs are created. This will put less pressure on the social protection budget and it will also, in a real sense, cheer up people and give people an opportunity to be confident and do something about their own situation.

If I were the Minister I would reflect on what has been stated by Deputies throughout the Chamber about FÁS. There is a job to be done. I believe the management of FÁS by the Department will be positive and welcome. The Minister needs to consider the future of community employment and job initiative schemes. There is much talk about the future of these schemes and how they will be developed. We have already had good news in that regard today from the Minister at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection. It is important the Minister understands there is work to be done.

I remember listening to the Minister one evening at a meeting in Tallaght and hearing him speak about what needs to be done in communities. The recession has added to that. I mentioned the St. Dominic's community centre earlier. When the Minister visited that centre he saw computer groups and young people, a group of whom have come to visit the Dáil today through the courtesy of the local Garda Síochána to listen to this debate. These young people would tell the Minister how positive that centre is on any given day, as a result of the work done through the schemes mentioned. We could all bring the Minister to centres in our constituencies that are not quite utilised as much. It is important that where the opportunity arises, the Minister continues to ensure these centres are properly used. I suspect the Minister has had some talks with FÁS management already, but I hope that before the passage of this Bill, he will talk seriously to them and make it clear that we are now in a situation where with the challenges facing the country real employment challenges face communities. FÁS has a job to do in local areas and the need of my constituency is no different in that regard.

The Minister will understand that representations are being made to all Deputies by lone parents and others who are concerned about all the reports they are reading in the newspapers. As I said recently, when I emigrated all those years ago, I went because I could not find a job. I did not know, because the media had not informed me, that the country was in dire straits at the time. I do not suggest information should not be available, but many people have told me that they are almost afraid to read the papers. Somebody advised me recently that I should read the paper once a week and listen to the media once a day. I do not wish to blame or pick on the media. They have a job to do and they do it. However, people are getting so much information that it adds to their fears. They are angry. For the past three or four weeks, every Sunday paper has been telling us what will be in the budget. Perhaps, with the publication of the national plan today, we will have some idea of the truth. There are clear suggestions in the plan about the shape of social welfare in the future. Nevertheless, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Brian Lenihan, made the point last night that he will not anticipate the budget until the day. However, we will continue to get speculation that will upset people.

The situation affects people who are in difficulties and challenged by poverty, people who are unemployed and the so-called new poor. Many people who were well off a year or two ago are now challenged. They can no longer take a holiday or buy a new car and, more seriously, are under pressure with their mortgages. I do not want to deviate from the issues, but ——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has run out of time.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

The Chair did not stop me.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not like stopping Deputies in full flow.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

Allow me a few more seconds. I hope somebody in government is telling the banks that the State support depends on them looking after people into the future. I challenge the new Government, when it comes, on this also. The banks have a job to do — to look after people and I hope they continue to do that. I look forward to supporting this Bill.

Deputy Tom Hayes

I wish to share my time with Deputy Frank Feighan.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak on the Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill. The amalgamation of FÁS employment services with the Department of Social Protection is a welcome and timely development and is something that is long overdue. I have concerns and questions with regard to certain aspects of the Bill, but will get to those later.

I refer first to the important point made by Deputy Durkan when he stated that people on social welfare payments should be looked after in these difficult times. As a country, we owe this help to the underprivileged. We also owe it to pensioners and older people. In that regard, Fianna Fáil Deputies should stop putting it out that they are in negotiation with the Minister. Some of them have issued newsletters, while others have issued photographs of themselves in negotiation. They suggest they are trying to persuade the Minister to stop making a reduction in pensions. However, they know in their hearts and souls that there will be no reduction in the pension. We all know that and that news has been broadcast on the airwaves. I understand that at the Fianna Fáil parliamentary meeting last night some people stated they were fighting to protect the old age pension. It is high time people stopped using and abusing the pensioners in this regard. It is nonsense. People should be ashamed of themselves for using our older generation in this way. This should not happen again and I hope the Minister will clarify the issue here. I know pensioners will not be affected, but there are other vulnerable people in society, such as people who are genuinely unemployed. These people, people on carer's allowance and those entitled to other social welfare payments must be protected as possible.

I am glad the Minister is present for this discussion and hope he will address in his response the significant concern among the public about fraud in the social welfare system. I believe there is not as much fraud as is suspected, but the taxpayers need to be assured of this. We have a serious difficulty with this issue. After today's announcement, some people will pay more than 50% of their income back to the Government. These people work hard, but on a daily basis they hear about fraud in the system. I urge the Minister to make a special effort to get the truth to the public and prove to it that significant fraud does not take place. He should also clarify the entitlements of non-nationals and the new Europeans and others who have come to Ireland. Rumour and speculation abound that these people are on the take constantly. The Minister needs to address this issue. I understand this may be difficult to explain, but when people are paying high taxes, they must be assured that their taxes are not being wasted. That is only fair. Irish people are supportive and helpful; they want to help the underprivileged, pensioners and provide child benefit. We are in this together and that is one of the messages coming from this recession. However, they cannot understand how fraud can be tolerated. We need clarity on that. We need to get over the hurdle of the notion of wholesale fraud.

The Minister has a duty to explain that and restore the confidence of the people. I do not have an answer to the problem but some sort of effort is required in terms of publicity or figures to reassure us that people are being checked and looked after.

The Bill's provisions on text, voice and Internet declarations on social welfare are daft. If people are unemployed and have nothing else to do, there is nothing wrong in asking them to make the trip into town to sign on.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 24 Nov 2010

Social Welfare (Miscellaneous Provisions) (No. 2) Bill 2010: Second Stage (Resumed)

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Nov 2010