Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 May 2011

Vol. 733 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

During the past week the European sovereign debt crisis has been growing by the day. There are major conflicts between member states and also between European institutions. Yesterday and today the financial press was and is full of very serious reports on the situation in Greece, Italy and Spain. The only clear element is that there has been a comprehensive failure to take strong, comprehensive and resolute action on the issue at a pan-European level. Europe and the markets are looking for certainty, but all they are seeing is indecision, in addition to receiving contradictory briefings. Every day some anonymous person, on behalf of one of the institutions, manages to brief and increase the sense of crisis which is genuine.

On 11 March the European Council agreed a definite statement on ensuring financial support for member states would be sustainable. This followed three months of intensive negotiations in which there was unity of purpose which has now gone. Why has the urgency shown in January and February disappeared? Does the Taoiseach support the majority of countries in wanting to restructure the Greek debt and overhaul that country's financial support package? It is clear that time has run out and that there is no more room for bickering through anonymous briefings. What is the Government's position on debt restructuring for Greece and other countries, including Ireland?

The Taoiseach

On the Government's view on debt restructuring for Ireland, let me make the position clear for the umpteenth time. This country will repay its debts and the money it owes. It is included in a programme and package from the IMF and the European Union. We are meeting the conditions of that package and will continue to look for improvements in it. The bigger difficulties associated with other countries are obviously a source of serious concern for European leaders. I agree it would be preferable if we had clarity of decision on the part of all European leaders on the crisis facing a number of countries. From that point of view, it is perfectly obvious that officials at different levels are working intensively with the governments involved to determine what is the best thing to do. As the Deputy is aware, in this country we are in constant contact with the troika as regards its observations on the programme for Government and how it is to be implemented. Let me make it perfectly clear: we are not involved in this package in a voluntary capacity. It is both challenging and difficult, but we are meeting our targets and on line to achieve them. We will pay back the moneys and loans the Government led by the Deputy's party borrowed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We note that prior to the general election the Taoiseach's party and his colleagues in government were very enthusiastic about negotiating a restructuring of the debt and made many commitments in that regard. Clearly, the position has changed dramatically since they entered government.

I asked the Taoiseach what his position was on the Greek debt, which he did not clarify. However, there is an element of confusion, even in regard to the Government's position. In recent weeks the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, perhaps consistent with his pre-election position, articulated the idea of rescheduling the Irish debt, which the markets and analysts would define as restructuring. He was firmly slapped down by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, who stated definitively this was off the table.

An Ceann Comhairle

May I have a supplementary question, please?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The main effect is that the people are more confused than ever. Equally, the Government's negotiating position is unclear on the proposal for a common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB. The Taoiseach stated last week that the proposal was off the table, but we are now hearing reports that the Minister for Finance is in constructive negotiations with the German Government on the issue of corporation tax and the proposal for a CCCTB. Will the Taoiseach clarify the corporation tax and CCCTB measures the Minister is negotiating with the German authorities?

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The great surrender to Frankfurt.

The Taoiseach

That position is very clear. The Minister, Deputy Brendan Howlin, made some comments that were carried by Reuters but later changed by that organisation. Clearly, they were misinterpreted.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I heard it on RTE.

Deputy Michael McGrath

An official misinterpretation.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

We heard that one before.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On "The News at One" with Seán O'Rourke.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we allow the Taoiseach to answer, please?

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy's use of the word "restructuring" means we are looking for a longer term to pay back the money we owe, or that we are not going to pay back the money we borrowed, that is not the intention of the Government. We will pay back the loans and the debts the previous Government incurred for the country.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

It is the Taoiseach's alternative method of funding.

The Taoiseach

Let Deputy Micheál Martin not mislead the nation in that sense.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach is trying to do so now.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach did it.

The Taoiseach

We are not heading towards a default by the Government or a position where we will not pay back the loans and debts incurred on behalf of the people by a reckless Government.

In respect of the proposal for a CCCTB——

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach would not borrow——

Deputy Alan Shatter

You have no credibility.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We did not borrow at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Taoiseach to reply.

The Taoiseach

Let me be clear. The Euro-Plus Pact clearly states countries are entitled to involve themselves in enhanced co-operation if they so wish. As I stated before, it is the legal responsibility of the European Commission to bring forward initiatives for legislation, as it sees fit. One of the documents it has produced is on a CCCTB. In that sense, do not expect this country to sit at that table and say nothing. We have a healthy scepticism about the proposal made.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

It is an attempt to introduce tax harmonisation by the back door and I will be prepared to articulate that view, as will the Minister for Finance. In that sense, although the Commission is perfectly entitled to introduce initiatives for legislation, as a country we are entitled to have our view. As the Deputy is aware, other Governments and other countries are very much opposed to this. It is part of a long tortuous process. In so far as this country is concerned, our view on the corporate tax rate is clear and our view on the common consolidated corporate tax base, CCCTB, is equally clear.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not so clear.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What is the Government negotiating?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Chuir mé ceist ar an Taoiseach inné faoi dhaoine aosta agus an fair deal. Ba mhaith liom ceist eile faoi sin a chur inniu. Yesterday, when I asked about the fair deal scheme the Taoiseach informed me that applications for approval under the fair deal scheme will continue to be processed and accepted and I welcomed this. Last night, the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, in answer to Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, stated that decisions to grant approval will be subject to the availability of funding. For its part, the HSE maintains that approvals are not being given. The HSE has informed us that the computer system for processing applications has been shut down by it since 16 May. This flies in the face of what the Dáil was informed yesterday. Yesterday, I asked the Taoiseach to clear up the confusion and concern for the elderly people and their families and I accepted what the Taoiseach stated in good faith. People are being prevented from taking up vacant nursing home places. They cannot get final approval and are being given 24 hour, seven day care by their families or friends and others are on hospital beds in an already hard-pressed hospital system.

People watching seek assurance from the Taoiseach that he will ensure this scheme is recommenced immediately. There must be clarity but the answer given by the Taoiseach yesterday did not clear up the confusion nor did the other responses given. People are still scared and deeply distressed and they need clear assurance from the Government.

The Taoiseach

This is a serious matter. It affects the livelihoods of our elderly people and it is a matter of great concern to their families. Deputy Adams is as interested as I am in finding out where the money went. The Minister for Health and Children informed the House that at least €100 million was diverted from the purpose for which it was intended. The Minister for Health and Children has ordered an investigation to find out how and to where this money was diverted and to which subheads it was diverted, all being in the area of care for elderly people. The Minister will have his analysis and examination completed in two weeks. In the meantime, applications are being accepted and processed but the reality is this is a budget-capped scheme.

I am keen to see the scheme continue and the Minister is keen to see the scheme continue. However, Deputy Adams is entitled to know, as are the elderly people involved, where the public's money went. When the Minister for Health and Children comes back here having found the answers to these questions we will be in a far clearer position to know how many more can be approved for the fair deal scheme.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

It is no laughing matter.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is not good enough. The Whip should show a little respect, if not for me or for our party then for the people for whom we are advocating a case. It is not good enough. The Taoiseach stated yesterday that the Minister would take two weeks to do this review. I said that was fair enough. However, we were also informed that these applications were being processed. The applications are not being processed. People are waiting for final approval.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

That has happened.

Deputy Gerry Adams

People are on hospital beds and, perhaps, in hospital corridors for all we know. People in distressed circumstances are waiting for final approval but they are not being given final approval and it is not necessary to wait until the review is finished to do this.

The Government is always clear about what it is doing when it comes to the big people in society, the big bankers and the big states. However, when it comes to the small people and those who could be our parents or who could be us in ten of 15 years time the Government is not clear. There are totally contradictory messages coming from the Minister for Health and Children, the HSE, the Department and the Taoiseach and this must be cleared up. The Taoiseach must say, if he does not mind my putting words in his mouth, that this scheme will recommence immediately.

The Taoiseach

I disagree fundamentally with the Deputy in that the Deputy purports to have a sole right in respect of the care and consideration of elderly people or the little people as he put it.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Taoiseach should answer the question and stop trying to avoid it.

Deputy Brian Stanley

It is a straight question.

The Taoiseach

This is why the Minister for Justice and Law Reform has brought forward the legislation to deal with white collar crime which is of such an interest to so many people and rightly so. We must deal with the real world here as must those who are applying for the fair deal scheme. The Minister for Health and Children informs me that applications are being processed and accepted. I trust the Deputy does not expect that final approval should be given for any scheme if there is no money to meet it. It is only right and in the interests of the taxpayer and the people, especially those who apply for the fair deal scheme, that they know where this money has gone and that we have a clear view of how the scheme can be continued. The Minister for Health and Children has asked for two weeks, some days of which have already gone, to find out where at least €100 million has been diverted from the fair deal scheme. The answer to Deputy Adams's question is that applications are being accepted and processed. In parallel, the Minister for Health and Children has called in the personnel dealing with the scheme to have a clear view of where the money has gone, how it has been spent and how the scheme can be continued as a consequence, in the knowledge that there is something there to meet it.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It should be recommenced immediately.

Deputy Joe Higgins

As the Taoiseach is aware, pyrite is a mineral, an iron sulfide, which, when contained in the crush rock under concrete floors in new homes and exposed to moisture, oxygen and certain other minerals, expands slowly but with incredible force causing devastating structural damage, the splitting of walls and ceilings etc. I wish the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government would not prompt the Taoiseach until he hears the question because I have a question for the Minister as well.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Let me have it.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I say the Taoiseach is aware because one year ago he visited homes affected by pyrite in County Meath along with the now Minister of State, Deputy McEntee. In a statement with the big headline, "Enda Kenny Visits Pyrite Infected Houses in Meath", the Taoiseach stated:

I am shocked at the level of destruction I have seen. These are people's homes and it is an outrage that the current government is washing their hands of this issue.

It was an outrage from the Fianna Fáil dominated Government, whose lax regulation allowed builders to use this material despite its destructive capacity being known. One survey suggests 50,000 homes in north and west Dublin, east Meath, Offaly and north Kildare are impacted. The costs for remediation are crushing, between €50,000 and €70,000 in many cases, a crushing burden that people simply cannot afford.

Cover by HomeBond, which was set up by the builders, is incapable of meeting the costs and lasts only ten years but, of course, this is a progressive problem. In reply to Deputy Catherine Murphy, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government gave, almost word for word, the same hand-washing response as the Taoiseach's Deputies got last year from the then Government. The view was that it was a private issue between home owners, home builders, HomeBond and developers.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are over time Deputy. Could I have the question please? Thank you.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Does the Taoiseach agree that it is not a private issue and that home owners are the victims of criminal negligence by State authorities and builders? The science of this has been known since the 1950s and 1960s. Standards were introduced in England and Britain in 1975. Will the Taoiseach take charge and alleviate the suffering and stress by immediately establishing a taskforce on pyrite destruction and a State-sponsored pyrite remediation scheme that will give immediate redress and remediation to the victims? The builders and insurance companies can be pursued afterwards.

The Taoiseach

I visited a number of homes where pyrite has had a devastating effect on the structures. I agree with Deputy Higgins that when people decided to buy their home and apply for a mortgage, they found themselves in a situation where, with interest rate increases, it was difficult enough to meet those demands, particularly when house prices were so inflated. Situations have arisen where cracks appear in the floor or the gable, running right across ceilings. Measurements taken over a period of months have shown a deterioration, where doors must be removed and door saddles taken up and where floors have risen by up to six inches. I have seen these houses and I know the frustration and devastation it causes to people. It happened through no fault of their own. In some cases the HomeBond facility was able to come to the rescue where contractors dug out foundations and replaced those that contained pyrite, which expands when mixed with cement and water.

There was a recent High Court case on this. I am concerned at the number of people affected. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, along with the Minister of State in the Department with responsibility for housing, Deputy Penrose, will study the impact and conclusions of the High Court case. I do not want to see a situation where people are in houses that show serious cracks in gables. The measures show in a number of cases that the houses are deteriorating. This is a cause of constant angst and pressure for those families who find themselves in a situation like this. The Minister and Minister of State, along with Deputy McEntee, the Minister of State in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, who has been meeting representative groups over the last number of years, will be prepared to meet a representative group from those affected and acquaint them with the Department's analysis of the High Court case. I would like to see people who bought their houses in good faith being proud to live in those houses.

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Taoiseach described the problems well but he did not give the assurances we need. The victims of pyrite are the same home owners who were caught in the vicious circle of rocketing house prices up to 2007 that made mega-profits for developers. As taxpayers they are now bailing out those same developers since they crashed to the tune of billions or euro. They are in negative equity and the product for which they have taken out 40 year mortgages is now disintegrating in their hands. This is a monstrous injustice by any standards.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate the Deputy's genuine concern but could we have a supplementary question?

Deputy Joe Higgins

I am asking the Taoiseach not just to study a court case, I am asking for the Minister and the Government to establish a task force, with immediate effect, to look into all aspects of this problem. Yes, the Minister should meet those who have been affected but he must come up with a remediation scheme that will allow these structural defects to be repaired without crushing the victims economically. They are incapable of doing any more because they do not have the money. I would like the Taoiseach to be more definitive here. Will he set up a task force with immediate effect with the Minister and others involved in the situation?

The Taoiseach

I am sure the Deputy wants me to be definitive but he would not want me to be foolish about this. The fact is that I have stood in kitchens where people have cried with frustration because their homes have been destroyed by pyrite.

Deputy Joe Higgins

We know that.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Wait to hear the answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please let the Taoiseach reply.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

If the Deputies wait for the answer they might learn something.

Deputy Finian McGrath

No answers are coming. Perhaps we could quote Barack Obama?

The Taoiseach

Many of these questions were brought to my attention by Deputy Broughan and Deputy Terence Flanagan. The Deputy wants me to give an answer to all his problems on the floor of the House.

Deputy Joe Higgins

These are not my problems.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing are gathering all the information to define the best response.

Deputy Joe Higgins

They washed their hands.

The Taoiseach

The contractors in many cases did not deliberately put material containing pyrite into the foundations of these houses. The insurance claims have mounted dramatically. The answer to what to do about the structure is known: the foundations are removed and repaired, as are the walls. The dwellings affected are detached, terraced houses and apartment blocks.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Is the Taoiseach doing a Bertie Ahern on it?

Deputy James Reilly

We will not be taking Deputy Higgins's clothes; he does not need to worry about that.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Perhaps we could get Barack Obama to answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Taoiseach to conclude, we have gone way over time.

The Taoiseach

I am being definitive about the extent of the problem. I want the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing to bring definition to the conclusions of the High Court case to see what is the best thing to do. My interest is in seeing people have homes they can be proud of and not have to wake up every morning to see gables split by pyrite they were not responsible for and which, in fairness, the builders involved did not know was in the material when they put in the foundations.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I have a dream.