Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Last week a Cabinet Minister gave an extensive media briefing about policy on low-paid workers without clearing it with the Taoiseach or the Cabinet. This set off days of briefings and counter-briefings with no one any the wiser on Government policy and the Minister's personal agenda. This was unfortunate but not an isolated incident. In the past three weeks the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, have had to deal with the fall-out from comments by other Ministers because they got mixed up, misspoke, were taken out of context or simply got it wrong.

I know the Taoiseach's preferred approach to the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and maybe other Ministers, might be simply to ignore what he says. However, an analysis done this afternoon shows that his Sunday interview has been covered by more than 2,200 media outlets around the world so far. Similarly a review published today uses the now corrected statement by the Minister, Deputy Howlin, on restructuring to claim that Ireland accepts that restructuring is inevitable. I am conscious that Ministers are still operating to the standard set in Opposition, where all that basically mattered was the size of the headline.

Deputy Alan Shatter

It would not work to operate to the standards the Deputy showed in government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Things are far more serious now.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy should not laugh about the standards.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please. Can we have a question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The problem is that loose talk costs jobs. It costs jobs because——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy should know all about that.

Deputy Alan Shatter

The Deputy's party lost 450,000 jobs.

Deputy Micheál Martin

——companies make decisions on where to invest, and they are watching this kind of stuff——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has seven seconds remaining.

Deputy Micheál Martin

——and are filing reports. I do not know which Minister the Taoiseach will need to slap down next, but can he say to the House that he has spoken to his Ministers and explained to them why these solo runs are damaging? What is he doing to ensure this stops?

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Where is the Minister anyway?

The Taoiseach

Yes, I have spoken to all of the Ministers about the importance of this matter. The Deputy said that loose talk costs jobs, which is true. So does lack of truth and transparency. When he had the opportunity — he was less than economical with many of the facts of life. I put this to the Deputy. This Government is in a very different position from the one of which the Deputy was a member because we have taken decisions about the banks.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Those are the same ones we did, which is very different from what the Taoiseach is talking about.

The Taoiseach

We have taken decisions in respect of a national economic stimulus and we are now carrying out a detailed analysis of how public moneys are spent so we can prioritise what we can do within the constraints of the IMF-EU deal for the 2012 budget. Of course, the international wires carry news they regard as appropriate. I confirm, as I did last week in this House, that there will be no need for a second bailout in 2012.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

What about 2013?

Deputy Pearse Doherty

What about 2013?

The Taoiseach

Our IMF-EU bailout deal is to last for two more years. The Government has negotiated downwards the original cost of that deal.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

How did the Taoiseach do that?

The Taoiseach

We have made changes to the amount that was estimated to be required. We have made changes to elements of the deal in the context of changes in respect of the minimum wage and the jobs initiative, and these have been accepted by the troika. The proof of the pudding is actually in the eating. The first analysis carried out by the troika in respect of Ireland living up to its commitments has been validated and this country has been commended on the action it has taken and on the fact it has measured up to the requirements of the EU-IMF bailout deal. That is the direction we are headed in. This is not easy; it is challenging.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Every time the Taoiseach is asked a question and is caught breaking a promise, he avoids answering the direct question asked. It seems his commitment to change has lasted about as long as the pledge of the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Quinn, on student fees.

The Taoiseach will, I hope, have seen the detailed briefing on the damage done by the comments of the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar. The biggest problem, however, is that many people are stating openly in writing and opining that the Minister was telling the truth and that the Taoiseach and his Minister for Finance are denying it because they must. The implication that the Taoiseach is not telling the truth is deeply damaging and inappropriate.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Which side of that argument is Deputy Martin on?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am sure he would agree with that. This is what is being said in public analysis; I am just making the point.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

We know what is being said. What is Deputy Martin saying?

An Ceann Comhairle

Could we have a supplementary question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am asking the Taoiseach my question. The Taoiseach should put an end to the theme emerging in public discourse following the comments of the Minister, Deputy Varadkar. I acknowledge he has gone some way towards doing so.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Tadhg an dá thaobh.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach ought to clarify, to the country and wider international community, whether the positions he expressed publicly yesterday and on which he was quoted in respect of the bailout programme, which is to run to the end of 2013, to the effect that Ireland has sufficient money in all circumstances to deal with it its obligations and that there will be no need for a second bailout represent his public, private, final and unequivocal positions.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

What is Deputy Martin's view?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin's comment is quite pathetic.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

He speaks of media commentators, national or international, who speak of telling the truth about events that have not yet happened. We know the truth about what he has left us with and the truth about the stress tests. We know the truth about the changes agreed with the troika by this Government.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

We know the lies the Taoiseach told before the election.

The Taoiseach

We know the truth that is unfolding about the investigation being carried out by the Government in respect of the comprehensive spending analysis.

I might hold out a list of at least €253 million of unbacked-up decisions made by the Government across a range of areas, with no decision taken other than the figures put in——

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are well on track, according to the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin speaks from the Fianna Fáil benches of the truth about issues that have not unfolded. Nothing has unfolded other than conjecture and projections. As far as we are concerned, the Government is proceeding on the basis of decisions made that were left lying around for a very long time. The consequence of being in the IMF-EU bailout deal has been thoroughly assessed in the first quarterly review by the troika. The country has measured up in terms of this challenging position. We intend to maintain this position. The programme, as the Deputy knows, is to run for a further two years. That is clear and there is no equivocation or rolling back from what we have set out to do.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Cuirfidh mé ceist ar an Taoiseach, an cheist chéanna a chuir sé ar Mr. Bertie Ahern: is it not time for the truth to be told about the scale of the economic crisis? This is exactly the same question he put to his predecessor last October. I asked the Taoiseach this today because of the contradictory statements made by his Ministers. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport said there will be a need for a second bailout but the Taoiseach contradicted that. Last week, the Taoiseach repeated the mantra that the State will repay the debt it owes to the EU and IMF, which now amounts to almost €200 billion. What of our debt to carers and to children with special needs and their parents? What of our debt to 300,000 low-paid workers? What of our debt to senior citizens who need long-term residential care?

This morning, I asked the Taoiseach to equality-proof Government decisions. It is surely the mark of a civilised society to consider the social consequences of Government decisions. The Taoiseach rebuked me and stated I must be holding too many clinics. The truth is that the debt is unsustainable. The truth is that the Members on these benches will survive that, but others will not.

Last week, the Taoiseach refused to reinstate the fair deal scheme. The Government seems intent on impoverishing low-paid workers, who could not afford a personal agenda.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach seems to be intent on robbing children of their special needs assistants. Will the Taoiseach commit to honouring these people's rights as citizens and to giving them a bailout and reversing the cuts which are hurting the most vulnerable in society?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's question wanders over the Cooley Mountains. He proceeded from talking about the debt to children of the Government to a whole range of issues. It is the duty and responsibility of the Government to govern fairly and in the best interest of the people. That is why, after these short few months, the truth of what we are finding is unfolding. We will have to deal with it with a sense of courage and fairness. Of course I have heard the reports on disadvantage and meet people regularly who are disadvantaged and feel isolated and left behind. They have been left behind and evidence of this was brought to the nation's attention in a television programme last evening.

I am quite sure the Deputy wants to play his part in this Oireachtas by supporting Government initiatives for job creation and getting people back to work. I do not want us to continue to have over 440,000 people on the live register. What we need from the other side of the House is constructive debate on job creation, initiatives to create employment and free up employers to take on new employees, such that we can grow the indigenous economy and continue to avail of the potential that exists for the export market in a range of areas. Everywhere I go around the country, I meet entrepreneurs and business people who are interested in focusing on getting back to work. They need credit for their businesses, and need restrictions, red tape and bureaucracy removed. They want to be able to take on some of the people on the live register who are unemployed and feeling the pinch because of the country's economic circumstances. That is the challenge facing the Government. It is not just a question of debt. While I acknowledge debt is critical, it is also a question of duty and responsibility. In respect of these two areas, the Government will live up to the mark.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I do not want to play a part in this Oireachtas; I am already playing a part in it. I asked the Taoiseach three straight questions about three categories of citizens, namely, senior citizens, children with special needs and people on low incomes. I asked him to reinstate their status as citizens and reverse the cuts. He did not answer the question. It is, therefore, up to the Taoiseach to play his part in this Oireachtas.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach referred to the programme on television last night. I did not see it but I did not need to in order to know what carers must put up with. The Carers Association has asked the Government to bring forward immediately a strategy to reinstate people's ability to care for their loved ones at home.

Mine is a straight question, not a history lesson nor a poc fada over the Cooley Mountains: will the Taoiseach reinstate the status of carers and give them the ability to look after their loved ones at home?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy mentioned people on low incomes. This Government took a decision to reverse the cut in the minimum wage, which reversal and consequent increase will take effect from 1 July and will be introduced by the Minister for Social Protection.

Deputy Gerry Adams

We campaigned and we welcomed that. Answer the question.

The Taoiseach

That is the first point. Those people in respect of whom the Deputy legitimately raised his voice will have that cut in the minimum wage reversed and, therefore, their wage increased, with effect from 1 July.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

How many people will be affected?

The Taoiseach

The second point is that the jobs initiative introduced by this Government, about which the Deputy had his own views, will go towards playing its part, limited though it is, in taking people off the live register, the unemployment register, and giving them the opportunity to have a job and a career. That is why the Minister for Health and Children today approved and got approval from Cabinet to set out a public health policy framework which includes senior citizens and people with special needs.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I am sure people will jump for joy about that.

The Taoiseach

I do not understand why that was not done in the past 40 years but the reason the Government and the Minister without Portfolio is now carrying out a comprehensive analysis of the way moneys have been spent here is precisely to deal with that question so that the Government can prioritise those who deserve priority in terms of being treated fairly across the board.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach will tell us some day.

The Taoiseach

If we did not have a situation where decisions were made to spend €60 million here and there on voting machines and another million euro on storing them——

The Taoiseach

Deputy Dooley may laugh if he wishes but that kind of money being put into the area of special needs or attention for senior citizens would go a long way to dealing with that.

Deputy Barry Cowen

What about the fair deal scheme?

The Taoiseach

To answer Deputy Adams, what we have got to do——

Deputy Barry Cowen

The Taoiseach cannot find the fair deal scheme money.

The Taoiseach

——is find out the truth of the scale of misspending or inappropriate spending, or where spending is giving best effect, and increase that. I want to see senior citizens valued. I have made that a tenet of mine for very many years.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach is in power now. It is in his hands.

The Taoiseach

I want to ensure that children and adults with special needs are treated and given facilities in accordance with their requirements. That is why the Minister for Health and Children is carrying out that analysis on the scale on which he is carrying it out, in accordance with the decision of Government, to have a comprehensive spending review.

A Deputy

The Taoiseach will run out of analysts.

The Taoiseach

I assume that when that analysis is completed the Deputy will continue to play his part in making his views known, as he will have the opportunity to do, so that everybody can be treated fairly and be seen to be treated fairly.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Finian McGrath.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach did not answer my question about carers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Adams——

Deputy Gerry Adams

Carers have asked the Taoiseach to reinstate a strategy to allow for long-term care-giving at home.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked about low incomes, special needs and senior citizens.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach did not answer the question. He makes Bertie seem like an altar boy when it comes to answering questions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have order for Deputy Finian McGrath?

Deputy Finian McGrath

I want to raise a number of issues and develop some of them further in regard to children with special needs and children and adults with an intellectual disability, whose service is threatened due to the current economic crisis. I hope the Taoiseach is aware of the major problems facing many families of children and adults with disability following the excellent "Prime Time Investigates" programme last night. It was an excellent example of public broadcasting highlighting the needs of the most vulnerable sections of society. This morning I attended a fund-raising event in Donnycarney for autistic children where the issue on the agenda was cuts to those services.

With regard to the intellectual disability sector, is the Taoiseach aware that we have a major problem with 3,845 people with an intellectual disability on waiting lists for residential day care and respite places? In view of that, I ask him not to cut any service for a child or adult with a disability and to make that a priority issue over the course of the next four years. Can the Taoiseach give me a commitment on that in the Dáil today?

Does the Taoiseach accept that children and adults with a disability and their families did not cause this economic mess and should not be blamed or penalised for it? That is an important point. Can he and his Government make that a core principle over the next four years?

Is the Taoiseach aware that 2,158 residential places, 208 day care places and 1,479 respite places are needed to end the waiting lists over the next four years? What are his plans to end those long waiting lists and to support those people and their families?

The Taoiseach

Deputy McGrath has raised several issues similar to these in the past and I know he has a deep and personal interest in this area. The children did not cause this problem, nor did their parents. The Government will focus on this area as a priority and when the analysis of the comprehensive spending review is completed, we will know the truth of the scale of the priority that can be accorded to any of these sectors. Obviously, this one is very sensitive and personal to a great number of people.

I do not have the detail of the number on waiting lists for respite care to which Deputy McGrath referred but that is not just a statistic. Such care goes on every day, night, week and month and that places very considerable emotional and social pressure upon parents who did not cause this problem. I agree with the Deputy 100% in that regard.

The work being done by the Minister for Education and Skills for those with special needs and by the Minister for Health and Children in respect of respite care and waiting lists, and that entire area, is also being examined and referred to by the Ministry for children and youth affairs. These matters are all intertwined and interdependent. I do not have the details of the respite lists the Deputy mentioned but these matters are a priority.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I thank the Taoiseach for his response. On the figures I gave, they are the up to date Health Service Executive figures and they came from the Minister for Health and Children.

Many parents have asked me if the Government is taking the issue seriously. For example, many parents were in the audience of "The Frontline" programme on RTE 1 last night yet not one senior Minister or Minister of State could be found to appear and put the Government's position on the table. Many of those parents were offended by that and many people throughout the estate were upset about it. Will the Taoiseach take this issue very seriously?

On other issues, particularly related to education, is the Taoiseach aware that one class of 28 six year old boys, with two children with special needs and others with severe behavioural problems, has had its SNA hours reduced to three days per week from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m.? In addition, one of those children is incontinent and at times has to wait until another SNA can come to provide support from another part of the school. Where does that leave the dignity and the long-term health implications of the child, with the child being forced to wait for these services? Also, is the Taoiseach aware that an ABA school in Donaghmede on the north side of Dublin will close in July due to lack of Government funding?

The Taoiseach

I will refer the Deputy's last point to the Minister. I assume the school to which he refers is an official school in respect of ABA. I am well aware from meeting parents of children in schools that have been set up around the country because parents believe in ABA that such schools are entirely voluntarily funded, and the pressure on those people to continuously raise funds for teachers in whom they believe is quite considerable. This morning the Government approved the publication of the report into SNAs, which is an issue that should be debated in the House. The Deputy will find matters of considerable importance in that report that should and will be discussed here.

As I understand it, the Minister was not consulted about the preparation of the programme yesterday. I believe contact was made some time before the broadcasting of the programme asking the Minister to appear in respect of a programme that he had not seen.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is fairly normal.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It never happened in the Deputy's time.

The Taoiseach

Nobody over here has any difficulty about appearing on programmes. The Minister will do a programme on this issue very shortly. I would like to think that some of the issues dealt with in the programme last night should have been dealt with long before now. For example, why does somebody have to wait for four years to make his or her home wheelchair accessible? Why is somebody suffering from motor neurone disease turned down for a medical card? One of my best friends died from that disease. I know, from a layman's perspective, the sad and tragic path of that disease, yet one cannot get any facilities without a medical card, even though it is a terminal illness. Some of the shocking revelations that were made in the nine cases outlined last night speak for themselves. That is precisely why we have to review the entire structure of the way services are delivered and money is spent. This goes on every day and it is a shocking indictment of society in 2011 that many of these things came to light. I do not deny that and I sympathise and empathise with those people whose cases were highlighted last night. Many others who we both know have to contend with this every day, and that is not the way things should be. When the Government gets the truth about the scale of this, that is not the way it will be. I would like to think that we could reverse all of these things overnight, but we cannot do that.

It is important that everybody has a genuine interest in these things and we in the Oireachtas should see to it that when we get the relevant Ministers' responses to the comprehensive spending analysis, we determine what is in the best interests of those who should be given a clear priority here.

Dáil Éireann debate - Tuesday, 31 May 2011

Deputies

A Deputy

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 31 May 2011