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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jul 2011

Vol. 739 No. 2

Communications Regulation (Postal Services) Bill 2010 [Seanad]: Motion to Instruct the Committee

I move:

That, pursuant to Standing Order 177, Standing Order 131 is modified to permit an instruction to the Committee to which the Communications Regulation (Postal Services) Bill 2010 may be recommitted in respect of certain amendments, that it has power to make provision in the Bill to amend the Broadcasting Act 2009 to provide for reallocation of part of the TV Licence Receipts from RTÉ to TG4 and capping of the amount paid to the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources by the Department of Social Protection in respect of free television licences, thereby giving legal effect to the Budget 2011 decisions, and to render compatible with EU State Rules the wording of the Act which allows for the establishment of a Broadcasting Funding Scheme to support the development of, inter alia, the archiving by broadcasters of programme material, and to change the title of the Bill to take account of these provisions.

I am putting forward this motion to enable a number of important and urgent amendments to be made to the Broadcasting Act 2009, which will be taken on Committee Stage of the Communications Regulation (Postal Services) Bill 2010. That Bill is currently before the House.

My understanding was that this was a Second Stage debate on the Bill.

As it is a net issue, I did not think it was necessary to provide a long explanation of why we have to do this before we can recommit on Committee Stage. Deputy Ó Cuív can speak for as long as he wishes on Committee Stage.

All I know is that we have 65 minutes to conclude this business. I am just after arriving. The Minister has moved the motion and that is all he has to say, so I call on Deputy Ó Cuív.

Ba mhaith liom an deis seo a thapú labhairt ar an mBille agus cuid de na moltaí atá sna leasuithe atá á moladh ag an Aire a phlé go ginearálta. Sin a dhéantar ar an Dara Chéim de Bhille.

I bprionsabal tá mé go mór i bhfabhar an méid atá á dhéanamh ag an Aire. Go deimhin is é an Rialtas deiridh a chuir an tuairim chun cinn gur cheart go mbeadh cuid den cheadúnas ar fáil le haghaidh TG4. Nuair a bunaíodh TG4 i dtosach, léirigh mé mo mhíshásamh ar an gcaoi go raibh sé le hairgeadú. Chonacthas dom i gcónaí go mbeadh contúirt ann ó thaobh airgeadú TG4 de dá mbeadh sé ag brath ar airgead díreach ón gcáiníocóir. Ag an am níor thuig mé cén fáth nach dtiocfadh an t-airgead ón gceadúnas.

Is cuid den chraoltóireacht seirbhíse poiblí é TG4 agus níor cheart go mbeadh sé difriúil ar bhealach ar bith, mar shampla, ó RTÉ. Mar atá rudaí i láthair na huaire, tá trí ghné ag dul a bheith bainteach le craoltóireacht seirbhíse poiblí: TG4, RTÉ — a fhaigheann an chuid is mó den airgead, €185 milliún — agus an ciste craolacháin atá ann freisin. Má ceapadh nach rabhthas in ann an t-airgead iomlán a fháil ón gceadúnas le craoltóireacht seirbhíse poiblí a chur ar fáil, b'é mo thuairim ag an am gur cheart an t-airgead ón gcáiníocóir, an t-airgead atá ag teacht díreach on Státchiste, a chur isteach in éineacht leis an airgead ón gcéadúnas agus ansin, ag breathnú ar na riachtanais sheirbhíse poiblí, an t-airgead a dháileadh dá réir.

D'fhéadfadh duine ceist a chur cén difríocht a dhéanfadh sé, cén buntáiste a bhainfeadh leis. Tá an ceadúnas seasta. Baineann an ceadúnas le líon na n-áiteamh sa tír, méadaithe le teilifíseáin. Ar ndóigh, ceist go lá eile an cheart go gcaithfeadh gach áiteamh an ceadúnas a íoc, mar bhí go leor airgid ag dul amú ag iarraidh oibriú amach an bhfuil teilifíseán i dteach nó nach bhfuil. Is gearr go mbeifeá in ann an teilifíseán a chur i do lámh agus é a thabhairt timpeall leat, ach fágtar sin ar leataobh. Ar an meán, ní laghdaíonn líon na n-áiteamh sa tír agus mar sin tá ioncam an cheadúnais seasta nó ag méadú an t-am ar fad gan aon athrú ag teacht ar an gceadúnas féin. Is é sin le rá, má fhanann costas an cheadúnais mar a chéile tá an t-ioncam ag méadú. Bhí sé le tuiscint i gcónaí dá dtiocfadh géarchéim airgid sa tír go dtiocfadh laghdú ar an Státchiste, nó go mbeadh an baol sin ann agus go mbeadh sin éagórach ar TG4 le hais iad siúd a bhí ag brath ar an gceadúnas.

Tá an rud atá á dhéanamh ag an Aire ag dul leath-bhealach. Is é atá sé ag socrú anseo ná gur féidir airgead ón gceadúnas a thabhairt do TG4, ach go praiticiúil go mbeadh an dá chiste ann i gcónaí agus go mbeadh TG4 fós ag brath, a bheag nó a mhór, ar airgead ón Státchiste. Ní thuigim cén fáth nár shocraigh an t-Aire go gcuirfí an dá chiste in éineacht, go ndéanfaí cinnte gur aon chiste amháin a bheadh ann le roinnt agus go roinnfí an t-airgead bunaithe ar an tseirbhís phoiblí a bheadh á chur ar fáil. Ar an gcaoi a bhfuilimid ag oibriú, ní léir cén córas atá ann, nó a bheidh ann, le hairgead an cheadúnais a roinnt. Mar shampla, tá sé spéisiúil sa Bhille go bhfuil an t-Aire ag rá gur le haghaidh cláracha seirbhíse poiblí amháin a bheidh an t-airgead le fáil ag TG4. Ach dúirt an t-Aire sa Teach le gairid, ag caint ar RTE, gur pacáiste iomlán é RTE agus seirbhísí RTE agus nach bhféadfaí bheith ag déanamh deighilt idir na cláir thráchtála agus na cláir sheirbhíse poiblí mar gur aon phacáiste amháin iad. Is léir mar sin, má tá an tuiscint cheart agamsa ar an rud atá i gceist ag an Aire, go bhfuil laincis ag dul a bheith ar TG4 nach bhfuil ar RTE mar atá i láthair na huaire.

An dara rud nach bhfuil soiléir domsa ná cén chaoi a roinnfear airgead an cheadúnais idir TG4 agus RTE amach anseo. Ní raibh mé in ann briseadh síos a fháil, tar éis gur chuir mé ceist Phairliminte síos, ar an gcostas a bhaineann le clár uair a chloig teilifíse baile a chur ar fáil ag TG4 le hais uair a chloig teilifíse baile a chur ar fáil ag RTE. Bheifeá ag súil go mbeadh sé i bhfad níos costasaí an uair a chloig a dhéanamh tré Ghaeilge seachas tré Bhéarla, ó thárla go bhfuiltear á dhéanamh i dteanga mhionlaigh, ach de réir an tuiscint atá agam, tá sé i bhfad níos saoire uair a chloig teilifíse a chur ar fáil nuair a dhéanann TG4 é le hais nuair a dhéanann RTE é. Ní thuigim ariamh cén fáth nach bhfuil benchmarking á dhéanamh de RTE leis an gcostas ar a éiríonn le TG4 seirbhísí a chur ar fáil. Ní ghéillim ar chor ar bith go bhfuil caighdeán na gclár ar TG4 ar aon bhealach níos lú nó níos measa na caighdeán na gclár chuireann RTE ar fáil. Go deimhin, is minic a chloisim daoine, a bhfuil cuid mhaith acu ar bheagán Gaeilge, ag rá go bhfuil sár-chláir á chur ar fáil ag TG4 agus go bhfuil caighdeán na gclár sin, go mórmhór na cláir faisnéise, an-árd amach is amach agus nach bhfuil a mhacasamhail le fáil tré Bhéarla ar chor ar bith.

Tá muid ag fanacht agus ag fanacht ar na leasaithe seo. Tá siad ag teacht isteach dhá lá roimh dheireadh an téarma tar éis go raibh a fhios Mí na Nollag seo caite go mbeadh na leasaithe ag teastáil. Tá aiféala orm nach bhfuil beart níos raidiciúla á dhéanamh ag an Aire agus nach bhfuil sé ag cur cruth nua iomlán ar an gcur chuige a bheidh ann maidir le hairgeadú na seirbhísí chraolacháin phoiblí sa tír.

Aontaím leis an Aire go mba cheart go mbeadh córas láidir seirbhíse chraolacháin phoiblí againn. Ní aontaím ar chor ar bith leo siúd a chreideann go bhféadfadh an earnáil phríobháideach tabhairt faoin gnó seo. Má bhreathnaítear áit ar bith ar domhan a bhful an cur chuige sin ann, feictear nach mbíonn mórán éagsúlacht ann agus nach bhfuil éinne sásta tabhairt faoi na cláir ar ard chaighdeán a chuirfeadh craoltóir seirbhís phoiblí ar fáil.

Is the next speaker Deputy Ferris or Deputy Ó Snodaigh?

What amendment are we discussing?

We are dealing with the motion.

No, I am not the next speaker

The Deputy is not involved at this point but he can speak later. The next speaker is Deputy Joan Collins and she is sharing her time with Deputies Mattie McGrath and Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan.

The first point I would make is that my union, the Communications Workers Union, is opposed to the liberalisation and privatisation of our public services, particularly any aspect of a service provided by An Post, and especially on this the third stage of the liberalisation of public services. It is important to lay that on the agenda this evening. As a member of that union, I support its position on this. It is strange that the Labour Party is pushing liberalisation through the Dáil with its partners in government. That is why I support the amendment proposed by Deputy Ferris——

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy, but we are taking a motion on the broadcasting aspect of the Bill. We are not dealing with An Post at this stage.

I thought we are dealing with An Post.

No, we have to dispose of the motion on broadcasting beforehand.

For the purposes of clarity, is the Bill being taken separately from the issue of An Post?

We will come to it when we dispose of the motion.

It forms part of the same Bill.

It forms part of the same Bill later.

I was not expecting that.

We will deal with the Bill after we dispose of the motion.

I wanted to speak on the liberalisation of postal services. I agree with the allocation of money to both stations, although I am not prepared to speak other than briefly on the matter. There should be a separate vote on this issue because it is important that we consider it separately from that of An Post. I would hate to oppose the liberalisation of postal services if it meant I was impacting on other aspects of the Bill.

This appears to be a repeat of the debate on the Finance (No. 2) Bill 2011 when we were told we would be voting against an increase in the minimum wage if we opposed the Bill. I agree with parts of the Bill, but I do not understand why they have to be thrown in together.

When times are tough, it is usual to cut back on spending on less important items. It is fair to give the money to TG4, but I suggest we could make up the money if we stopped paying nearly €1 million per annum to some people in RTE for doing what many others could do as well, if not better, for €100,000. With the arrival of Vincent Browne's show on TV3, what is so unique about RTE's coverage of political issues? I do not think it adds value any longer. Given that one has to pay €160 for a television licence in tough times, there is an opportunity to reduce the licence fee while continuing to provide the necessary services through TG4. At this stage, nobody would miss RTE. What can one watch that is not available on other stations? Can one not watch "Are You Being Served" for the one millionth time on another station? In regard to current affairs, my experience is that it is highly biased against anyone on the Opposition benches. I cannot see what will be gained by keeping it.

When it comes to allocating money to TG4, I do not have a problem. It is a fantastic station which has done amazing work for the Irish language by making it relevant. One can watch snooker, golf, tennis and other sports through Irish. However, I do have a problem with RTE holding onto its money because it does not do anything unique for us. It boasts that it has 19 of the top 20 radio programmes, but is that any wonder? It has the money to buy any presenter it wants and private radio stations, whether national or local, are severely disadvantaged as a result. They also lose advertising revenue because RTE wants it all its own way. It wants the licence fee revenue as well the advertising revenue.

The only problem with giving money to TG4 is that I cannot vote for it because I would have to support a Bill which will have the result that people in my town will be lucky if post is delivered to their doors twice a week. By voting against the giving of money to TG4 at least I can make a stand against the running down of postal services in rural Ireland. If this was a restaurant, we would only be allowed to eat here if we agreed to have the entire menu on the same plate.

We are discussing Raidió na Gaeltachta which I wholeheartedly support. As a member of a previous committee dealing with communications, I worked hard to get answers from RTE, its ard-stiúrthóir agus daoine eile ar an coiste. The wages of public servants in RTE were like the 29th mystery of Fatima. I refer to the high flyers rather than the ordinary people looking after the grounds and doing back-up work. I do not want to name or shame anyone, but we found out that Pat Kenny had been paid €860,000 in 2006. He was working as a subcontractor.

There has to be fair play and the licence fee is €160 a year. There is choice and many in Gaeltacht areas have a huge spéis sa teanga. They would pay more than this to receive their fair share, but they are not getting it. While on the aforementioned committee, I visited the TG4 studios in Deputy Ó Cuív's constituency where "Ros na Rún" is filmed. It is located at the most western extreme point of the country agus tá an tir seo an bheag ar fad. We gained an excellent insight into its work. As a Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív was passionate about promoting the station and succeeded in getting €6 million for it this year. However, like our language, it has been discriminated against and is forced to operate on a shoestring. The playing field must be level. RTE would do well to cut out the fat in wages and other sources of waste.

When the "Liveline" programme covered Tipperary town after a moment of madness on the part of one or two people, it tried to destroy the good people of Tipperary. When we invited it back to cover Tops of the Schools which the Abbey school was organising in conjunction with St. Ailbe's, it was not interested. It wanted the sceál bocht agus olc.

Bhí TG4 i mo bhaile dúchais an tseachtain seo cáite to film "Éigse Cháislean Nua", a historical perspective on Newcastle's culture and heritage agus an scríobhneoir Seamus Mulcahy. Beidh siad ag teacht arais because they are very interested in being involved and serving the community. That should be the purpose of the national broadcaster; it should not be a self-serving organisation. For years we have seen different personalities in RTE, some of whom never seem to retire. I mean no disrespect to Gay Byrne, but when the former Minister, Noel Dempsey, appointed him as chairman of the Road Safety Authority, he did not know the roads in Newcastle or Connemara. He is fine in Dublin on his Harley Davidson. Will these people ever retire? He can whinge in a newspaper interview that he lost out in the banking crisis, and that is tough, but so did many others. RTE seems to have to get him back for every fiddle-faddle. He was a good broadcaster and I am not denigrating the man but his time has come. He was involved with the Road Safety Authority. I have eight children, ranging in age from 26 to eight, and Gay Byrne means nothing to them. Sports personalities or modern musicians would have had more of an impact.

TG4 deserves support and like Deputy Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan, I would support this motion except that it is lumped in with an attack on post offices and postal services. It is a pity these issues are taken together. Deputy Tom Hayes and I will have another battle to fight in Tipperary with regard to post offices and we look forward to meeting the Minister in the near future and whatever help he can give. I would support TG4 in any possible way and it should be given a small bit of fair play.

When we were being briefed on the Bill, both Deputy Ó Cuív and I asked that this section would be kept separate and we were prepared to facilitate its passage through the House without debate. It would ensure funding for TG4. The station has been invaluable throughout the island over recent years, particularly with its historical perspective. There have been fantastic re-enactments of prison escapes, especially those from the past 30 or 35 years. Looking back on them, the way they were put together is absolutely fantastic for historical purposes. The GAA has also benefited from the station, as have the rural islands off the coast. I fully support any funding to ensure this necessary service.

As it is outside the remit of Standing Orders, the purpose of the motion is to recommit on Report Stage a specific matter relating to the funding of TG4. The comments of spokespersons, with the exception of Deputy Ferris, have ranged far and wide. Members are perfectly entitled to do this. The net issue is that this Bill was considered an appropriate vehicle to facilitate the TG4 issue.

As a result of the last budget, it is proposed to transfer a sum of money from the licence fee to the funding of TG4. That sum amounts to €9.245 million in 2011. In answer to the question from Deputy Ó Cuív, that will remain the position. TG4 will for the moment remain part Exchequer funded and part funded in this fashion from licence money. In addition, there is a provision to allow for the establishment of a funding scheme for public and private broadcasters relating to the archiving of programme material, which is important. The figure of €9.245 million represents approximately a third of TG4's required revenue.

There was a second budget decision for 2011 regarding television licence fee receipts, and this was to cap at 2010 levels the contribution in television licence fees to be made by the Department of Social Protection in respect of the distribution by that Department of free television licences under the household benefits package. As with the first point I mentioned, there is currently no provision in the Broadcasting Act 2009 to allow for the implementation of a cap of this nature, and the legislation must be amended as a matter of urgency to ensure the 2011 budget decision, as reflected in the Revised Estimate for 2011 for the Department of Social Protection, can be delivered.

The remaining matter is required urgently with regard to the existing provision of the Broadcasting Act 2009 relating to the establishment by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland of an archiving scheme under the broadcasting fund. The purpose of such a scheme would be to assist both public service and commercial broadcasters to undertake the archiving of important programme material that might otherwise be lost to the people. I understand a number of broadcasters have programmes in place awaiting the initiation of this scheme. Unfortunately, the existing provision as currently worded runs counter to European Union state aid rules and must be amended as a matter of urgency in order that the draft scheme can be approved by the European Commission and put into operation by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

Deputy Ó Cuív went far outside these issues to speak about his vision for the funding of public broadcasting television. He and I are ad idem on the value to our society of public service broadcasting. The Deputy expressed disappointment that the measure in respect of TG4, as he noted, preceded Christmas and all this time later I have not changed the entire system of broadcasting in Ireland. I might do it if I got a little time. Deputy Ó Cuív had 14 years to do it——

I was never a Minister with responsibility for broadcasting. Give me a year and I will do it.

——and did not manage to implement his vision during that time. He raised a number of interesting issues.

There were wide-ranging comments from the other contributors, with the exception of Deputy Ferris. Like St. Augustine, it seems we are all in favour of TG4 but we have serious problems with RTE. I will examine the broadcasting scene and I have listened to Deputy Ó Cuív's submission in that regard. I do not know if the single fund system he envisages is in the best interests of broadcasting in Ireland, as TG4 was stripped from RTE for very sound reasons. I could not agree with Deputy Ó Cuív that it came into existence because RTE was not delivering on its objectives with respect to the Irish language. When my colleague, former Deputy Michael D. Higgins, founded TG4 he had more high-minded motives than simply repairing any imagined deficiencies in the coverage of the Irish language by RTE.

In the last Dáil I was privileged to be able to receive on so many occasions the wisdom of Deputy Mattie McGrath, who is uniquely talented at taking both sides of the road with him. By God, he has now met his match in Deputy ‘Ming' Flanagan.

He is a colleague.

He takes some beating. He is all in favour of TG4 and giving more money to the station but he is opposed to the Bill and RTE. Deputy ‘Ming' Flanagan will have a very uncomfortable time in the serious matter of heavy lifting in this House and dealing with legislation rather than pontificating outside the House. If he is going to suffer this kind of pain and anguish over every measure coming before the House, he will find himself oppressed and hard put-upon. Frequently Members find themselves confronting a measure like this and they decide whether they are for or against it. I am completely mesmerised as to how, as he put it himself, "I have no problem with TG4 but the post is only delivered twice in my part of the country."

It is delivered five days a week in his part of the country and it will continue to be delivered five days a week under the designation of An Post as the universal service operator. There will be no change in that and it does not have anything to do with TG4, the matter under debate here. Deputies ‘Ming' Flanagan and Mattie McGrath——

I beg Deputy Luke Flanagan's pardon.

My name is Luke ‘Ming' Flanagan.

The Deputy is the one who gave himself the middle name, not me.

How would the Minister like to be referred to as Deputy Bunny Rabbitte?

Deputies Flanagan and McGrath took the opportunity to make a populist attack on lead personalities in RTE. The fact of the matter is that RTE is facing a significant deficit. I had a further meeting with the director general of RTE this week. The focus of the meeting was his plans to try to get the deficit under control. It is fair to point out that RTE was the first of the State companies out of the traps with regard to savings and pay reductions. It is expected that those who can best afford it will make a contribution to the future savings that will have to be made in RTE. I cannot agree with the suggestion that the quality of RTE's public service programming is inferior. TG4 is an innovative and worthwhile station with the capacity to do a great deal to keep the language alive, which is vital in this country. I regret that the qualities in public service broadcasting that RTE strives to represent — within the budget available it, rather than that available to the BBC — are not recognised by Deputy Flanagan.

Deputies

Agreed.

Níl. I do not want to vote for it. It is not agreed.

Question put and agreed to.

Is it agreed to take Report Stage now? Agreed.

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